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PEN15v2
09-30-2019, 12:11 PM
Announced for the debut on Oct 2nd:

Cody Rhodes vs. Sammy Guevara
AEW Women's Championship -- Nyla Rose vs. Riho
Kenny Omega & The Young Bucks vs. Chris Jericho & two mystery partners
Adam "Hangman" Page vs. PAC
MJF vs. Brandon Cutler
plus Jon Moxley Live appearance

Of that list, I think Page vs PAC is the match I'm most curious about. None of them have enough story going on for me to dive into, but where Page and PAC go from their matches at All Out is interesting. It's hard not to picture Page not becoming the top homegrown talent of the promotion, much like AJ Styles was for TNA back in 2002.

I also think MJF will be a HUGE star with his mic skills and charisma. So that match has my interest as well, though I know next to nothing about Brandon Cutler.

I still hope for more "Road To" type segments for the Dynamite. Not a lot of attention has been spent on the rest of the women's roster, so seeing a title defense on the Oct 16th show will need some sort of pump for whoever becomes the top contender. Unless it's a rematch, I guess, but all AEW hype has indicated not being into too many rematches. I'm guessing the Oct 9th episode will have a way to determine the number 1 contenders for each title for the defenses on Oct 16th, but there should be some way to set that up on the debut.


With title defenses booked on Oct 16th, I am disappointed with the apparent usage of the top names. One thing I was selfishly REALLY hoping AEW to do was showcase a weekly program where they didn't over use the top talent. I really hate the current expectation of weekly matches for the top champion of a brand, and monthly title defenses. AEW has set themselves up in a way where I think they could accomplish this. Now, I understand with the NXT push, I get why AEW doesn't want to take chances on losing viewership to the other program at the same time. And thankfully, it looks like they are balancing out the rest of the roster enough that it'll likely work out. But I hope whatever method they take going forward, they are able to have a different main event weekly. I was doing my best not to bring WWE comparisons into this, but I think the proper way for a promotion to succeed long term with their TV/PPV balance is to have less main event champions matches on TV, and more on PPV. I think back to my childhood, and I can't remember ever seeing Hulk Hogan wrestle. I know it had to happen, but those shows usually had Hogan in a recap, or a promo, or with Brother Love. But he would rarely wrestle, and it made matches like teaming with Savage vs the Mega Bucks a bigger deal. This meant that the TV main event was usually a midcard match. Obviously we won't be returning to that exact style any time soon, but I see no reason why 2-3 months down the line, the AEW champion would only have interviews, or be in tag matches (like in NJPW) and save the singles and title matches for PPV and very special events. TV main events would be for establishing new contenders, or for the tag titles...etc.

I also want to see more of the win/loss record stuff mattering. I can't get into NJPW, but I appreciate how the title reigns aren't just measured in days, but in defenses. I don't know if this will translate to a wider audience, but I hope AEW really puts a focus on that to test it out.

I've already warned my S/O that this week will involve me being very involved with all the wrestling we are getting, so while I doubt I'll watch this live, I'm sure I'll have watched it by the time I go to bed Wednesday night. And if it does reach the hype, it's entirely possible that this becomes my Wednesday night viewing every week. I've personally been hard on AEW for missing the mark too many times in the last year, but I've always said that I'll save final judgment for the TV show. It's really unfair to judge the entire promotion based on less than a handful of events and youtube clips. But this week, Dynamite really gives us our first real look into what AEW will be about.
Here's hoping they are starting something that will last a while.

mizfan
10-01-2019, 02:56 PM
I'm feeling excited for this! Definitely going to be a big night. My only concern is how to watch, since my cable isn't hooked up. Still haven't figured that one out. I heard other TNT usually has their stuff on Hulu so maybe that'll be my avenue, I'd sure love to watch the first episode live though.

I don't think I agree that Page has the potential to stand out the way AJ Styles did in his early career. The benefit AJ had was not only was he pushing the boundaries of a new style, he was also able to execute that style of jaw dropping athletics better than virtually anyone at the time or since. Page is alright but I don't think he has that same appeal, plus he's already got a bit of pushback after getting put in the first title match without a lot of heat behind him (though losing that match might have actually helped him in that regard).

Definitely want more "Road To" style stuff on the show itself. A good number of fans will probably be watching for the first time, and characters are going to be at least as important as matches if not more so.

The Hogan comparison is interesting. As I'm sure you know, Hogan of course was wrestling constantly, but only on live events since that was where they drew the majority of their money at the time. So I don't know if it can work the same way in 2019, when TV is kind. BUT I do agree with the premise, if they can find a way to keep their top guys fresh by not featuring them wrestling 52 weeks a year, it'll be a benefit for su all.

I think they've quietly done a good job of making wins and losses matter but they could do a better job of articulating it (example: Sammy Guevara is coming off a win in a six man tag, so it makes sense he gets a shot at #1 contender Cody rather than somebody on a losing streak). I also like the title reign measured by defenses thing.

The TV product is definitely going to tell us a lot. Unless they shit the bed I'll probably be a weekly viewer as long as I can swing it, but if they can really come out swinging they could potentially build their following a lot in short order. Curious what surprises will be on the first show too, between Jericho's mystery partners and some hints about a "Lex Luger" moment, we could get some super exciting stuff out of the gate.

PEN15v2
10-03-2019, 12:06 AM
So... I guess there was a no DQ stipulation in that trios main event?

Solid, but unspectacular show. Best match was once again Cody's

Cult Icon
10-03-2019, 01:27 AM
BZZZZZ! WRONG! Sorry, had to do it.

Just got back from the show. Amazing live experience, easily the best show I've ever been to, beating out the AAA show in New York show I saw a few weeks ago. As the party I was with was in a luxury suite we got to have the show broadcast on TV but I barely heard any of the commentary and didn't see any of the production (I heard it was good but I'll see for myself tomorrow). The low points were MJF vs. Brandon Cutler, where Cutler unfortunately had one of the worst performances of his career, the weird Jay and Silent Bob segment and the crowd being burnt out for the final two dark matches (SCU vs. Jurassic Express, Bea Priestley/Penelope Ford vs. Allie/Britt Baker). Beyond that it was money. The opening dark match between Darby Allin and CIMA (!) was really good with Allin winning. Cody/Guevera was off the charts and the follow up Jericho angle was well done. Hangman vs. Pac was really good, although Hangman Page is definitely having trouble connecting with fans (he got respectful cheers but he was easily the least over "big name" on the show). The main event was really fun, the Moxley angle was awesome (for those wondering why no DQ, referees in AEW have discretion on whether to call for DQ's or not; this occurred at Fight for the Fallen as well when Christopher Daniels and Marko Stunt interfered in matches) and the post match angle was so electric that it got a standing ovation after it went off air. I know the Jake Hager/Jake Strong/Jack Swagger appearance will be controversial but he came off like a mega star to the audience, and as a heater for Jericho and this new group (and this was definitely set up as Guevara/Jericho/LAX/Swagger being a unit) he fits well. The first post show dark match, Angelico/Jack Evans/Lucha Brothers vs. Best Friends/Private Party (with an Orange Cassidy appearance) was also really good and it allowed me to see four of my favorites team up.

The highlight though, by a vast margin for me, was Nyla Rose vs. Riho. This match was unbelievable; I was nervous about it going in because the AEW Women's Division has struggled to get over but by the mid point of this match those two got the entire building and never let us go. There were two near falls in particular that were so close that on one of them I legit thought the match was over and began marking out for Riho, only to then realize Nyla had kicked out. And I wasn't the only one. There was a sloppy moment or two, one in particular when Riho tried to backdrop Nyla but they played it off well (Riho would have trouble doing that) and you can have slight issues like that in matches when a) the match as a whole is so strong and b) the crowd is so into it. This was the best match on the show, a star making performance for both Riho and Nyla Rose and exactly what the AEW Women's Division needed. There were a lot of things this show did right from a live audience perspective but that and elevating Guevara, who between his performance and the main event angle came off looking like a real player, were the two things AEW nailed.

Benjamin Button
10-03-2019, 02:27 AM
Mostly, the show looked good from the hi-lights...hearing tony/Ross together would be good enough for me. i liked the brawl with Mox and Omega but that should be a dq for sure. Really undermines all the good work they've done with refs to have this guy let the match go.

Swagger is always an underwhelming surprise.

Glad Riho won.

Powder
10-03-2019, 07:27 AM
I am re-posting this here, as this was my reply to Pen in the NXT thread on why the AEW show was better than NXT.


Really? I felt the opposite. Yes the AEW show wasn't as polished, but it was show #1. But it felt distinctly non-WWE, and fresh.

Dynamite had many things that were brought back to wrestling:

Separate entrances for heels/faces
Time limits on matches
Match will end with TV time left - JR even commented on this
Announcers calling moves and the match - not just pandering
Talking about how the referees had control of the match
Wins and losses matter, with records shown on name graphics - the announcers talked about this nonstop
Post match interviews
TV-14. It makes a difference, there was only one time I can think of that this came into play, when Tony called MJF a prick, and JR said TV-14.


I am sure that others will find more things, but these are just some that made AEW feel much different.

PEN15v2
10-03-2019, 08:49 AM
Powder, if all those things are what make a better show for you, then we'll never agree on what was good or not. To me, some of those factors can be used to put on a better show when used right. But most of those things weren't a factor last night.

Separate entrances don't matter in the slightest.
Time limits and TV time remaining are non factors, and they've already established time limits with Cody VS Darby. I'm a fan of it for sure, but I can't see why that made AEW better last night if none of the matches took advantage of it.
Announcers call moves in NXT. Always have. If you're comparing AEW to Raw, then you'd be onto something. But not when comparing to NXT.
Referees control is a nice announcer addition, but doesn't charge the quality of the match or show.
Post match interviews happen in WWE quite often.
Does Tony calling MJF a Prick really make it a better show? I caught it, but it felt forced. Almost like he was told to say that to purposely show off the TV14.

I think a better example of that was the Moxley and Omega break, with the glass table spot. That's something NXT or WWE would not do due to pressure to be family friendly. That moment was one thing AEW definitely stood out with, and it fit. As a fan who's been watching for over 30 years, it wasn't special overall, but it was a really smart move to highlight what AEW will get away with, but WWE won't even try.

But, that doesn't make it a better show. I don't care that the crowd was bigger than NXT. I don't care about most of what you pointed out,or they weren't better than NXT.

As for Cult, I love you buddy, but I would never expect you to give a fair chance to anything WWE, and I know you didn't watch NXT. So I'm ok if you think I'm wrong. That said, I never ever used that for someone's opinion, only when someone used incorrect facts to base their opinion.

I feel a lot more fair minded than you and powder. I was looking forward to NXT, and I never hid that. But I don't understand the mentality of watching something with the purpose of not liking it the way many do. There was a lot of good stuff on Dynamite, but the flaws were big and obvious.

I've been waiting for the tv show to use their solid storytelling from the Road to shows. The only match that got this treatment was Cody VS Sammy. A match that didn't have a deep story in the first place. There was no history there. But, had they had that for Jericho VS Omega, or Bucks VS LAX, or the women's title match... It would have been better. To me it looked like the main event was rushed, and that's why they didn't get any prematch treatment of that level. I know they recapped the debut of LAX, but it would have helped to try to find out why they attacked the Bucks.

I also didn't like how they didn't try to connect to next week's show, other than the tag title tournament. I understand that's a huge aspect, but there are title matches in 2 weeks, and no contenders. They've had 4 women on tv, including Brandi as a valet, and Britt doing a weak job at the booth (very few wrestlers are good at the booth, so this isn't a knock, more about how it didn't make me care for her more than a promo or vignette would).

The women's title match was better than expected, but the tv showed more flaws than was likely caught live. It had some rough patches.

The trios main being cut short was a good thing for my tastes, because it cut down on Bucks nonsense. There was still too much choreography, but it was vastly reduced, and they had to sell for once since they were down a partner.

AEW dynamite was a very good tv wrestling show. On par with an above average WWE raw, but tighter at 2 hours. I felt like it was missing something, but I never felt like they were wasting time, and nothing dragged (though I didn't like the tag team confrontation, at least I understand the importance of it).

But none of the matches were great or stood out. NXT had 3 matches better than anything on dynamite, and the others were on the same level. So, I give the NXT the better show. I'm also judging without including the surprises, because those aren't fair. AEW doesn't have access to the WWE roster, so Hager isn't as big a deal as Finn or Ciampa. But I also know these surprises aren't weekly occurrences, so aren't fair to really judge a programs worth. So, keeping in mind what each show can do regularly, NXT delivered an 8/10, while dynamite was 6.5 ish. Better than most WWE TV, but NXT had always been an exception.

Prime Time
10-03-2019, 09:06 AM
I haven't seen the show, but I don't think you necessarily need to use time limits, referee control, and some of those things that Powder was mentioning in order for them to benefit a show. I've long felt that creating an atmosphere in which those things are factors, expected, and could play a role, is actually more important in whether or not you use them on a particular show.

Now, with that said - those things only go so far. They do improve a show, but they don't make up for any major drawbacks elsewhere. And not having seen it, I don't *actually* have an opinion on where AEW would sit in all this, or NXT for that matter.

Kleckamania
10-03-2019, 09:09 AM
I havent watched NXT yet. I will today. I was up at 8pm, so I chose to watch AEW knowing now that I can still watch NXT episodes on the network whenever I want.


My impressions were that Hangman Page vs Pac was the match of the night. Followed up by Cody's match (Sammy is pretty polished! Impressed by him in ring). I was impressed with Page, and can see him being a World Champ with a little polish. Pac seems to be wrestling smarter now (somewhat safer moveset), which is good, cause the moveset he ran in WWE created a lot of timing issues. He should hover around title scenes nicely in AEW.

I was very much disappointed by MJF. I heard he was a good talker, but part of being a good talker is knowing when to stop, his promo as he walked down to the ring was waaaaay too long. He was just saying the same thing over and over again. Honestly off my first impression he came off as a poor man's ECIII- nowhere near as good as the real thing. Both he and his opponent were sloppy in their match.

My least favorite match of the night was honestly the women's match. I'm sorry, there is just zero suspension of disbelief in Riho. She's about 90 lbs soaking wet. Watching Nyla put in that much effort to sell Riho's offense killed the match for me (multiple times you could easily see Nyla jumping in spots where Riho was "lifting her"). At least when Little Spike used to do his thing ECW kept it realistic. Riho is just too small to make me believe her offense is a genuine threat honestly. The outcome seemed silly to me.

The closing match was fun, though for a company that prides itself in wins and losses, rankings, etc, it seems absurd that there was no DQ there. Refs enforce the rules everytime in pro sports.

The Jack Swagger reveal was a bit of a let down. Seems like maybe that spot was intended for someone else, but maybe that person signed with Fox to do Smackdown's announcing? The Young Bucks were the highlight of the main event for me. They did great.

It was cool seeing Tony Schiavone doing the announcing. I was a bit stunned to see him look younger than he did in WCW decades ago. Their announcing team is infinitely better than any group WWE has on any brand. They added to the product instead of detracting from it (though I still think Nigel Mcguiness and Corey Graves are gems- they are just surrounded by duds).

The production was solid. Camera work was great. Overall a good show, but I expected a bit more from a premiere. Only 2 bad matches though. I am very much looking forward to that tag tournament however. I'm guessing their 2nd show will be much better.

My first impression is that AEW needs to step their game up if they plan on competing with NXT.

Powder
10-03-2019, 09:13 AM
I am not knocking NXT, as it was my third time actually watching the show. I thought that it was good, but I thought that AEW was better. The Women in NXT, outside of Baszler are who??? Exactly. No one. Now they can and will be stars, but currently they are not anyone of recognition. The Women's match last night was 2 of the 4 from last week's fatal 4 way. Why not highlight other women?

Riddle vs Cole was good, but nothing to write home about. The Baszler match was solid and enjoyable.

But as I said, the NXT show, felt exactly like a typical WWE show. If they want to be different, then be different. Do not give us the same stuff the "main roster" does. With Balor returning, I hope there are more people who go back or debut after the draft, but keep the main stars on NXT.

Also Velveteen Dream? I turned him off. Awful. He may be a good in ring performer, I don't know, but his character is awful.

Again, I liked the show overall, but I felt that AEW was bringing back actual Professional Wrestling and some less Sports Entertainment. The time limits, the refs, wins and losses, etc are all part of the history of ProWrestling and not sports entertainment. When the announcers kept saying that if Cody loses, it could cost him his title shot, that mans something. How many times in WWE do we see champions lose matches, or #1 contenders lose and they just get their shot anyway? Little things like that will make the overall product better. The beauty is in the details.

NXT was good, but a WWE product, which is what we all have complained about for years on these forums, and AEW was something different, and it won the night. it may not always, but last night it did.

Oliver
10-03-2019, 09:50 AM
I thought...to be honest I thought it was pretty average.

The Cody match was a Cody match - he's still a decidedly average wrestler. Sammy popped it a couple of times, a far more interesting performer, but it was tied down by Cody being Cody.

MJF vs Cutler doesn't even merit talking about. A nothing match.

PAC vs Page was overly reliant on PAC being a superhuman flying machine to hold my interest. I checked out after the springboard 450 about 5 minutes in, they'd already done too much and I just didn't have interest in watching more of it. And you know, I'm not 'No Flips Just Fists' or whatever, but at least build to these things. It felt like they'd gone out there to have a 20 minute match in 13 minutes so cut the build up parts.

Riho vs Nyla was the only match that will get the official Oliver 'Dope' rating on the night, I thought that was the only bout on the card that really told a story that was easy and accessible, simple to follow, and built through the course of the 15 minute run time into having a satisfying pay off.

The main event tag was fun but nothingy, and clearly just a part of the bigger story(ies) they are telling - nothing is less interesting to me than the Young Bucks phoning it in, and I felt they did that a little here, but it was the second best match of the night.

I mean, it was fine, I'll watch next week, but it wasn't demonstrably amazing or anything. But it's a new promotion finding it's feet - people will give it leeway as a result, and rightly so. I personally think they need to make some major strides on how they use wrestling on the show, and how they approach wrestling on the show, in order to have a show that gels together comfortably for the viewer. It'll probably come with time.

It's not about whether it was 'worse' or 'better' than NXT - it's just a case of whether it was a good show, that I as a wrestling fan could enjoy. For me, it wasn't a good one, but neither was it bad. They just need to get comfortable with the format of a weekly TV show.

PEN15v2
10-03-2019, 10:55 AM
I am not knocking NXT, as it was my third time actually watching the show. I thought that it was good, but I thought that AEW was better. The Women in NXT, outside of Baszler are who??? Exactly. No one. Now they can and will be stars, but currently they are not anyone of recognition. The Women's match last night was 2 of the 4 from last week's fatal 4 way. Why not highlight other women?
Riddle vs Cole was good, but nothing to write home about. The Baszler match was solid and enjoyable.
But as I said, the NXT show, felt exactly like a typical WWE show. If they want to be different, then be different. Do not give us the same stuff the "main roster" does. With Balor returning, I hope there are more people who go back or debut after the draft, but keep the main stars on NXT.
Also Velveteen Dream? I turned him off. Awful. He may be a good in ring performer, I don't know, but his character is awful.
Again, I liked the show overall, but I felt that AEW was bringing back actual Professional Wrestling and some less Sports Entertainment. The time limits, the refs, wins and losses, etc are all part of the history of ProWrestling and not sports entertainment. When the announcers kept saying that if Cody loses, it could cost him his title shot, that mans something. How many times in WWE do we see champions lose matches, or #1 contenders lose and they just get their shot anyway? Little things like that will make the overall product better. The beauty is in the details.
NXT was good, but a WWE product, which is what we all have complained about for years on these forums, and AEW was something different, and it won the night. it may not always, but last night it did.

Your ignorance of the women in NXT notwithstanding, we actually got to see more women wrestle on NXT last night than AEW showed. So that’s a terrible argument. And if NXT had a title match booked in 2 weeks, then they set up the challenger on this show with Io getting the victory. So if you’re judging based on how the women are used, NXT wins.

Agreed on Riddle vs Cole being good. I thought it was amazing under the “no-selling” part, and it dropped to somewhere between good and great, but I’ll acquiesce to saying it was only good. Same with Bayzler.

Velveteen Dream had a pretty bad segment. I love the character, but last night was not the best usage of it, so I understand you not enjoying it.

I don’t know how you can’t see the difference between NXT and Raw/SD, but if you feel it was the same, I can’t say anything to change your mind. Just keep in mind that your opinion on that is not widely shared. This doesn’t mean you’re wrong, but there are many anti-WWE wrestling fans who enjoy NXT because of how different it is. I like all WWE programming, but I feel NXT is superior in many ways due to how it is different. If you don’t see it, then you don’t see it. Nothing right or wrong about it, but it’s a minority opinion.

Where you are wrong about the facts is that NXT does use a lot of those staples you mentioned. The refs do get involved and commentary highlights their strengths. You talked about how in WWE you’re used to seeing champions lose or contenders lose, and still get their shots. Well, that wasn’t on NXT at all. Everyone who got a title shot earned it. You’re holding Raw and SD against NXT, which to each their own, but those things you praise about AEW are in NXT. You’re just choosing to ignore it to make your opinion seemed factually based. It’s not. You can prefer AEW, no one should ever fault you for that. But don’t make up reasons for it that are blatant and pathetic lies. NXT is the wrestling show, while Raw+SD are the sports entertainment shows. It doesn’t mean Raw/SD don’t have wrestling, and NXT doesn’t have Sports Entertainment, but they have different main focuses.

As for AEW winning over NXT, I visit 2 other sites, including one who involved with AEW sponsorship in some way (either they sponsor AEW, or AEW sponsors their podcast, I don’t know all the details – but they are involved with each other). And all other sites have fans picking sides, but it’s soundly NXT had the better night. This doesn’t mean AEW sucked, or that many people thought Dynamtie was awful. In fact, it’s been getting great reviews. Just that NXT was a step above. I think everyone overrates everything. I said NXT was an 8, but I’m judging based on wrestling TV, not a PPV. NXT did a better job with matches, hyping the coming weeks, establishing rivalries…etc. AEW did an above average job, which is what I would rate 5, so 6.5 for Dynamite I feel works. I didn’t think they did enough to make me care for next week, and I didn’t think the matches were as good.


I was very much disappointed by MJF. I heard he was a good talker, but part of being a good talker is knowing when to stop, his promo as he walked down to the ring was waaaaay too long. He was just saying the same thing over and over again. Honestly off my first impression he came off as a poor man's ECIII- nowhere near as good as the real thing. Both he and his opponent were sloppy in their match.
My least favorite match of the night was honestly the women's match. I'm sorry, there is just zero suspension of disbelief in Riho. She's about 90 lbs soaking wet. Watching Nyla put in that much effort to sell Riho's offense killed the match for me (multiple times you could easily see Nyla jumping in spots where Riho was "lifting her"). At least when Little Spike used to do his thing ECW kept it realistic. Riho is just too small to make me believe her offense is a genuine threat honestly. The outcome seemed silly to me.
The closing match was fun, though for a company that prides itself in wins and losses, rankings, etc, it seems absurd that there was no DQ there. Refs enforce the rules everytime in pro sports.
The Jack Swagger reveal was a bit of a let down. Seems like maybe that spot was intended for someone else, but maybe that person signed with Fox to do Smackdown's announcing? The Young Bucks were the highlight of the main event for me. They did great.
It was cool seeing Tony Schiavone doing the announcing. I was a bit stunned to see him look younger than he did in WCW decades ago. Their announcing team is infinitely better than any group WWE has on any brand. They added to the product instead of detracting from it (though I still think Nigel Mcguiness and Corey Graves are gems- they are just surrounded by duds).
The production was solid. Camera work was great. Overall a good show, but I expected a bit more from a premiere. Only 2 bad matches though. I am very much looking forward to that tag tournament however. I'm guessing their 2nd show will be much better.
My first impression is that AEW needs to step their game up if they plan on competing with NXT.

I liked the MJF thing, but like a lot of AEW production, they’ll learn what to tighten up and shorten as they go. I think what hurts MJF is how they compare him to the Miz or the Rock, or whoever. He’s only 23 (I think) so he’s nowhere near as polished as they are, but he shows such natural comfort on the mic that you can how he can become like those guys in time. But no, he didn’t show it last night. That said, it was way better than 75% of solo mic promos.

Good point on the women’s title match. The one spot I noticed was the top turnbuckle counter into a slam by Riho. It was all Nyla just throwing herself and bumping. That instance I noticed and it bugged me. But I wasn’t as bothered as you overall. Your comparison to Spike Dudley is apt though, as he would have moments like that, but never won a title over a hoss. In fact, I think he’s got a terrible win/loss record outside of the tag and cruiserweight divisions in ECW and WWE. That said, Riho is about 1000 times better than Spike in the ring, and she brings more to the table than he ever did in terms of being competitive with a larger opponent like Nyla.

1000% agreed on the no DQ in the main event. I forgive these things in WWE, so I’ll forgive it here too. BUT, to all the fans who complain that there’s no consistency in WWE’s rules (looking at you, Powder), then this is a huge flaw. The main event of your debut show, when you’ve been pushing how sports oriented you will be compared to WWE… and then you have that!?!? The hypocrisy is palpable. But AEW fans will find an excuse and defend it. It is especially odd since it happened so early in the match that they could have arranged it without it being a broken logic rule. Have the 2 teams brawl before the bell, and then when Kenny is getting ready to fly (again, before the bell) that’s when Moxley could strike. It then leads to Bucks accepting to change it to a handicap match, and do the exact same thing. If AEW want to stay away from handicap matches as they defy logic, I understand and agree. But in that case you can’t have an attack midmatch and it not end in a DQ. It’s a catch 22.

I don’t think it’s fair to judge the Jake Hager surprise. All the promotions are locking up their talent, so it’s REALLY tough to have a surprise like Luger in 95. And it sounds like Punk just doesn’t want to wrestle. So Hager is still a great get for AEW, as he adds something that the whole promotion is lacking: size and legitimacy. I don’t mean he’s known or a star. But his MMA association, and his true amateur wrestling background, is a major asset to a promotion who is pushing sports credibility above other promotions. And he is literally head and shoulders above most of the roster. Solid choice by AEW.

Other than Jim Ross and Alex Marvez, AEW have a fantastic announce crew. Ross still adds something, so I’m not saying he shouldn’t be in the booth, but maybe not as the lead announcer. And Marvez has been moved out of that role, so I don’t think that’s a concern. But I love Excalibur and Tony. Tony needs to work out some “ringrust” it seems, and get caught into the weekly schedule, but he’s obviously better than Michael Cole, Tom Phillips, or Vic Joseph. I like Mauro better still, but I am bothered by his pop culture stuff. But as a pure wrestling announcer, he’s the best in terms of calling moves and showing emotion. He also directs traffic amazingly for Nigel and Beth. They wouldn’t be as good without him. They are very good, obviously, but most of what stands out for them is how they bounce off what Mauro is doing. Maybe it’s the broadcaster background in me, but his skills are beyond reproach.


I haven't seen the show, but I don't think you necessarily need to use time limits, referee control, and some of those things that Powder was mentioning in order for them to benefit a show. I've long felt that creating an atmosphere in which those things are factors, expected, and could play a role, is actually more important in whether or not you use them on a particular show.

Now, with that said - those things only go so far. They do improve a show, but they don't make up for any major drawbacks elsewhere. And not having seen it, I don't *actually* have an opinion on where AEW would sit in all this, or NXT for that matter.

That’s what I meant about how they can be a factor, but they weren’t last night. I think if we see over time that they can be factors, it’ll mean more on the nights they aren’t involved. But just saying “referee is losing or gaining control” when you haven’t set a standard of what that ref control should be, then it’s just a non-factor.


I mean, it was fine, I'll watch next week, but it wasn't demonstrably amazing or anything. But it's a new promotion finding it's feet - people will give it leeway as a result, and rightly so. I personally think they need to make some major strides on how they use wrestling on the show, and how they approach wrestling on the show, in order to have a show that gels together comfortably for the viewer. It'll probably come with time.
It's not about whether it was 'worse' or 'better' than NXT - it's just a case of whether it was a good show, that I as a wrestling fan could enjoy. For me, it wasn't a good one, but neither was it bad. They just need to get comfortable with the format of a weekly TV show.
I think this is the best explanation for it so far. I love this statement.

Team Farrell
10-03-2019, 11:33 AM
Of all the wrestling on last night, all I've seen is the first hour of Dynamite. I think that it's okay.

I like Cody, but I thought that going what felt like 15 minutes with Sammy Guevara and having him win with a counter is maybe not the best way to get over your number one contender. Nothing against Guevara but he's not a top guy. Maybe they want him to be, maybe he will be, but as of this moment he's not. He needs some definitive wins. It's the same argument people made about Page vs Sabien at Fight for the Fallen, but I felt that Page looked more dominant in that match and Sabien only got the advantage when Page was selling a knee injury.

I appreciate that wins and losses matter, and maybe it's something that'll be explored later, but at no point did I feel that one of their three name value stars who has been announced in the main event of their next Pay Per View was in any danger of losing that match and thus his title shot. Sammy needs bigger trunks.

It felt a little disjointed at times. I also couldn't figure out why they were running a major angle with no commentary in a picture-in-picture commercial. The commercials were distracting from what was happening as Jericho went after Cody, and the fact that US commercial breaks are so damn long meant that Jericho had to beat the shit out of Cody for what felt like an eternity. That was confusing to me.

The show kind of felt like TNA. Not current day Impact, but TNA. Maybe Nitro? Not in a bad way or meant as an insult, but the production and the way things just kind of went from one thing to the next. It didn't feel like it had the polish of a WWE (not necessarily a bad thing) or even New Japan.

From what I've seen it wasn't bad. It wasn't offensive. It didn't make me shake my head or want to turn it off. Maybe the second hour really picks up?

From what I've heard of the main with what should have been a DQ but wasn't, I remember JR mentioning earlier in the night that you weren't going to see cheap, cop out DQ's "because wins and losses matter". Maybe AEW is running relaxed, or no disqualification rules?

I dunno. I'll finish the show, I'll probably check it out next week, too.

I'm really not a fan of the interviews on the ramp. I completely get that especially with your first show you want to get those people in front of the audience that paid to be there, and maybe in-ring interviews or promos feel too "WWE" to them. But even Nitro had Gene interview people in the ring where they're centred in the building and the most of the live crowd has the best view. But my problem is that the interviews on the ramp feel cheap. You don't have a billion dollar LED wall set that you're trying to showcase like WWE and you can transform into the "Moment of Bliss" set graphically, so being on the ramp in between the two tunnels feels, to me, like an indy that doesn't have (or can't afford) a backstage set to do interviews in front of.

Again, I know that's not the case, and I know why they'd want to get people in front of the paying audience, but it just feels kind of bush league to be doing interviews on the stage.

On a plus, though, I did appreciate the UFC-style camera in the locker room where they cut to the audio for a moment or two.

EDIT: As far as a promotion with a "sports presentation" is concerned, my preference is still New Japan. I'd love to see an American promotion steal from them a little.

PEN15v2
10-03-2019, 11:43 AM
I'm really not a fan of the interviews on the ramp. I completely get that especially with your first show you want to get those people in front of the audience that paid to be there, and maybe in-ring interviews or promos feel too "WWE" to them. But even Nitro had Gene interview people in the ring where they're centred in the building and the most of the live crowd has the best view. But my problem is that the interviews on the ramp feel cheap. You don't have a billion dollar LED wall set that you're trying to showcase like WWE and you can transform into the "Moment of Bliss" set graphically, so being on the ramp in between the two tunnels feels, to me, like an indy that doesn't have (or can't afford) a backstage set to do interviews in front of.

I remember Gene shilling his 1-900 number on the stage/ramp, and then calling out whoever he was interviewing right then and there. I remember more of those than I do interviews in the ring. No special entrance graphics either. So I really can't agree with this complaint.

Oliver
10-03-2019, 11:48 AM
I think the one thing I really, really love from NJPW and would like to see them do more in the US promotions is the post-match 'press conference' style interviews. I don't know if that's weird, but I really enjoy them.

Agreed on the TNA/Nitro thing, Coach - now that you mention it I can see it in the show and how it was. I always picture Mean Gene doing those ramp interviews on Nitro, too.

Team Farrell
10-03-2019, 11:49 AM
Maybe it was later Nitro? All of the important interviews with important people I can recall -- with Flair, Hogan, etc. -- were in the ring, "on the stage", in front of the people.

It just feels bush league to me. Like an indy without an interview set. However, I wouldn't blame Tony for telling them he's not making that trek all the way to the ring every time he has to interview someone.

PEN15v2
10-03-2019, 12:20 PM
Maybe after the physicality from the attempt to interview Cody, the theory is Tony played it safe for the second interview on the ramp? I don't really care. An interview is an interview, and I think AEW will allow their broadcasters to get more involved. WWE makes it feels like everything is scripted from their interviewers. AEW likely will let Tony be more like Mean Gene was, and let them riff and have some fun with it.

Benjamin Button
10-03-2019, 12:49 PM
Nitro always had some interviews on the ramp.

https://youtu.be/ySBo59ZdC6Q

But unfortunately there never will be another Mene Gene. I cant remember the last great interviewer, but Tony's not a terrible choice.

Mystic
10-03-2019, 01:20 PM
Seconding the many interviews on the ramp. Maybe in the ring was more of a full segment. But Gene would often bring people out on the ramp, and often others would come out. Remember a funny one with Luger/Sting and RW. I haven't watched the AEW show, and due to work, I don't know if/when I will, but the resurrection of Tony S. and his image is one strange, feel good story.

comfortablynumb
10-03-2019, 02:03 PM
Early ratings show 1.5-1.7 million which is great. The 'official' number will be a little lower but looks like a great start for them. I'll guess 850,000 for NXT.

Team Farrell
10-03-2019, 02:11 PM
That's awesome! Great for AEW. Even if it doesn't hit that 1.5 mil number, anything a million or more has to be considered way beyond a success.

Cult Icon
10-03-2019, 02:23 PM
It's unclear what the number will be exactly because they don't have the numbers from markets like New York and Los Angeles (I suppose it could be even higher if those numbers are big there). Regardless these numbers are strong (they drew a 2.0 in Charlotte for crying out loud) and I expect they'll beat NXT, though I was expecting it anyway.

LK3185
10-03-2019, 04:17 PM
1.4 Million for AEW Dynamite debut

841K for NXT

Cult Icon
10-03-2019, 04:23 PM
That is, as the kids say, pretty good.

T.O.
10-03-2019, 07:00 PM
Eh, it's been done.

Degenerate
10-04-2019, 09:14 AM
I just watched the show and thought it was good, especially for a first outing for this entire group. The wrestling was okay for the most part, there was not a whole lot of shenanigans that could have turned people off of the product (like the Librarians or Michael Nakazawa oiling up). There were a couple of rough edges, and I think commentary needs to tighten things up significantly. I don't think it was horrible, but Tony Schiavone could have been more present - he spent most of the night saying "that's right" to something J.R. or Excalibur said.

In all, I thought they did a good job in presenting themselves as a viable alternative. I'm looking forward to seeing what they'll do next. This is going to be a long journey, though, so they still need to get more storylines and interesting matches going to capture people's attention for the long haul. I get why some people might have thought it could have been more, but I don't think it was underwhelming as I've seen some places online. Also, we need to realize that a lot of the wrestlers on the show had their first ever exposure on such a large platform, both live in the arena and on television. I'm sure nerves came into play, and they'll get more comfortable as time goes on.

As a side note, I watched the show from the Fite app since it's my only (legal) option. Interestingly enough, the show is completely uncut, with the cameras still rolling when it was a commercial break on TNT. Nothing really interesting happened during those periods, though. It would usually just go to a wide angle with no commentary and some few extra shots of the wrestlers getting ready for a match. But there was one funny interaction that I think didn't make air. After the Mox and Omega brawl went to commercial, Jericho took the mic because apparently someone threw a hot dog in the ring.

Team Farrell
10-04-2019, 01:37 PM
So, I watched the rest of the show.

Like I said before, I thought that it was alright. Hated Nyla vs Riho. It just is not a believable combination and that bump off the top was ridiculous.

A couple of things that obviously aren't going to stop my from watching but just bugged me:

I dislike that Excalibur calls it a "solebutt". It's just an annoying word. It's a spinning kick. That might be the technical, martial arts term for it but it annoys me, especially when it hear it 50 times in a Pac match.

I didn't love Jericho's pyro. I know it's probably just me. But the flames were cool, the big bright pops were cool, but there were those weird quiet smoke bomb things that looked weird. Again, it's just me, but pyro either needs to be sparks, light, fire or explosions in my mind not just pillars of smoke.

It's not stuff that's going to keep me from watching or make me turn the TV off, but it's just stuff that I picked up on because that's the type of stuff that producing events makes me see.

I didn't hate the glass table spot. It was clearly all gimmicked, but looked good enough that if you're going to bump up the heat between Mox and Omega, that's a hell of a way. I hated that it wasn't a DQ and it was really weird, but it wasn't something that made me turn the show off.

I somewhat wonder if they should have saved one angle or the other for week two. You want to have Omega taken out of that situation so that he's not jobbed out two weeks in a row, but I wonder if there had been another way to do it. The whole package with the match, the awkward Mox/Omega take out with the glass table bump, the remainder of the match and the big heel beatdown was almost too much for me.

It's one of those things where traditional logic would tell you that it's "too much" and the closing beatdown is going to have people forget about the Mox/Omega stuff. But it's night one. As long as they don't do it all the time it's not a huge deal.

Benjamin Button
10-05-2019, 04:48 AM
Watching the full show finally on youtube..love JR getting his passion back...enjoyed tony..and I like that Riho won the womens match. I think it was booked fine with Nila manhandeling her so to speak and Riho taking advatage of all the distance she can get. Nila got to distinguish herself as sort of a dick as well by attacking Riho after the match. I feel aew's been holding back just a little on how bad Nila can be. It's like that hidden dick just wanted to emerge, as she has always had a heel feel. Now its official. Move over Becky, in my opinion there can only be one true man in women's wrestling and its Nila! What a heel.

AEW needs clear heels.

Prime Time
10-05-2019, 05:54 AM
there was not a whole lot of shenanigans that could have turned people off of the product (like the Librarians or Michael Nakazawa oiling up).

This is an interesting point to me. Am I right in what I've heard, that there's also no Janela or Orange Cassady or pretty much anyone from that 'wing'? Are they going to drop a lot of the more contentious stuff in one go next week, or are they going to drip feed some of those acts and introduce them across a longer period of time?

Degenerate
10-05-2019, 09:16 AM
My guess is that they'll rotate who's on TV. There were a lot of people from the roster who weren't on the first show. Besides the ones you mentioned there's also Shawn Spears, Darby Allin, Dark Order, Luchasaurus and Jungle Boy, Best Friends, among others. I also had expected to see at least one more women's match, or at least more of the female roster presented somehow. I guess there's so much you can do in less than an hour and a half with commercials.

Cult Icon
10-05-2019, 10:28 AM
Allin, Luchasaurus, Jungle Boy and the Best Friends were all at the show, they just wrestled in the dark matches. Orange Cassidy was there too as a member of the Best Friends and they had an extra woman's match as well (Bea Priestley/Penelope Ford vs. Allie/Britt Baker). I think a few are going to air on some bonus content show but I'm not sure. Regardless, they'll be using these people, they just wanted to stick with what they had week one. So sorry Prime; "Freshly Squeezed" and Janela will still be around entertaining twerps like me.

Prime Time
10-05-2019, 02:30 PM
It's no skin off my nose, of course, and just confirms me in my instinct that it's not going to be for me. But I meant how would they be introduced to the wider audience. If they're just there but not on the broadcast, that doesn't really count.

But I never doubted they'd be using them so the question still stands I guess, are they going to run an episode that features a lot of those acts shortly, or will they spread them out more?

Kleckamania
10-05-2019, 02:45 PM
Smart money is on spreading them out. I mean clearly by leaving them out in the premiere you think your target demographic may not be into it. Maybe you arent sure- exactly why you leave it off. You don't just lay it all out there in week 2 to find out. Easiest way to push away the largest number of audience. You do 1-2 "side attractions" a week. I say next week they use Cassidy, and 1-2 more. It sounds like Cassidy has the highest chance to succeed based on the gimmick I've heard- it's almost a spectacle. So it would be most likely that they use maybe 2 more in the episode, then hold off on the rest until following weeks. So most likely, episode 2 will feel quite a bit different, but not entirely.


Companies now all use marketing as their eyes. Its the only way to see the real money.

LK3185
10-05-2019, 03:32 PM
Given what they had on the show last week,it didn't really fit with more comedy acts/ hardcore wrestling but I do think they will need some of that to spice up the vairety of the show.. I could seeing doing a Cassidy seg in between tag matches this week.

mizfan
10-05-2019, 04:39 PM
I'll just say I quite enjoyed the show overall, it didn't blow me away but it was fun and felt just special enough. Nyla/Riho was my favorite of the night, Nyla had some big moments and Riho completely rallied the crowd behind her. I liked Cody/Sammy a lot specifically for Cody, the way he kept going for pins to support the story behind the match that he promised not to go on to Full Gear if he took a loss was a great underlying story. I liked the MJF/Cutler semi-squash, whether it was the plan or not. Cutler got a little shine but we established MJF is much higher in the hierarchy, which is important.

PEN15v2
10-07-2019, 01:25 PM
* Jon Moxley vs. Shawn Spears

* Private Party vs. The Young Bucks in an AEW World Tag Team Titles tournament match

* AEW World Champion Chris Jericho and Sammy Guevara vs. Adam Page and Dustin Rhodes

* Darby Allin vs. Jimmy Havoc with the winner challenging Jericho the following week

I hope they add something to determine a contender for the women's title as well. Depending on what match types they are moving forward with, I recommend a fatal 4-way, that way they can take step one to establish more women for the future.

Oliver
10-08-2019, 04:47 AM
Wednesday night AEW and NXT might, after the last four days of WWE, be the only new American wrestling I watch now. With that in mind, that looks like a really good card, full of matches with consequences.

Part of me is expecting Moxley/Spears to have some Omega shenanigans involved, but otherwise I think that's a really competitive set of matches. More so than the first week, the card makes me look forward to the show.

Degenerate
10-08-2019, 09:39 AM
It looks like a great show. The following week also has a couple of solid matches.

My only nitpick is that I think we're already seeing lots of cracks on the whole "wins and losses matter" booking when it comes to championship opportunities. Both Allin and Havoc both have losing records, so why do they get a chance to face Jericho next week? PAC would be the next in line if that were the case.

My guess is that the win-loss thing will get dropped soon. I'd even go as far as saying that wins and losses won't matter in the next 6 to 9 months.

LK3185
10-08-2019, 11:00 AM
It looks like a great show. The following week also has a couple of solid matches.

My only nitpick is that I think we're already seeing lots of cracks on the whole "wins and losses matter" booking when it comes to championship opportunities. Both Allin and Havoc both have losing records, so why do they get a chance to face Jericho next week? PAC would be the next in line if that were the case.

My guess is that the win-loss thing will get dropped soon. I'd even go as far as saying that wins and losses won't matter in the next 6 to 9 months.

Cody mentioned quality of wins on twitter. Alin went to a draw with him and beat Cima in a dark match the next week (that will be ahown on YouTube today)

Havoc won that Hardcore brawl

I do agree that wins and losses will matter less eventually but they did come up with reasons for this match

Oliver
10-08-2019, 11:07 AM
I mean, Ring of Honor started out with something like that and then abandoned it. Wasn't it a Top 5 based on wins and losses? I seem to recall it being abandoned around the time that Danielson started to send open contracts to other promotions - so it must have lasted for quite a while, actually, 4/5 years. And they had a Pick 6 thing later down the line.

I suppose part of the trouble around that is it stops you, potentially, from building lengthy feuds - like, if someone loses to Jericho through shady means, what do they have to do in terms of W/L to get back into contention? What if someone has a better W/L record as a result of those losses to the champion, but there's clear grounds for a rematch? It's a curious one, and I half like it and half dislike it. Equally, hanging everything on it as a crutch for AEW to determine challengers is something we, as fans, likely shouldn't be doing and we probably just want to enjoy what they give us without using it to question their creative decisions - especially right now, when the promotion is nascent.

Prime Time
10-08-2019, 11:16 AM
I think it'd be a shame if they abandoned it. Wrestling has a major problem with impulse control, and not being able to stick to something that they've made such a thing that they're going to do would be disappointing. It's also the only thing they've done that's gotten me even remotely interested in seeing how they do, so it'd be disappointing for that reason, too.

Eventually breaking it for specific reasons and matches isn't a big deal, because there's actually a benefit in breaking the rules once they are established, but you've got to make them mean something first.

Quality of wins is a good thing way of explaining why you do things that might be a bit odd at first, but they'll want to be cautious about overdoing that. Really, you're going to want it to be obvious. If you have to explain it, you aren't doing it very well. Right now I can see why you'd want to give them a bit of leeway because there aren't many matches to work with but it's something that should iron itself out down the line and you need to make it clear without needing Cody or whoever to fill in the footnotes.

Benjamin Button
10-08-2019, 11:16 AM
Havoc did win that fatal fourway...Darby is a harder case to make but since cody is the number one contender and he took him to a draw there's that case they can make. Why would either get a shot over Pac? Well, though based on wins Pac would be over them in a top ten, the champ has to be subject to defend his title against anyone within a certain ranking, not just the #1 and #2 contenders.

PEN15v2
10-08-2019, 11:39 AM
Wednesday night AEW and NXT might, after the last four days of WWE, be the only new American wrestling I watch now. With that in mind, that looks like a really good card, full of matches with consequences. I think that's a really competitive set of matches. More so than the first week, the card makes me look forward to the show.

This is a huge factor. None of the matches are the draws that match last week’s debut, but the matches will matter more. This is smart on their end.


My only nitpick is that I think we're already seeing lots of cracks on the whole "wins and losses matter" booking when it comes to championship opportunities. Both Allin and Havoc both have losing records, so why do they get a chance to face Jericho next week? PAC would be the next in line if that were the case. My guess is that the win-loss thing will get dropped soon. I'd even go as far as saying that wins and losses won't matter in the next 6 to 9 months.

I don’t think it’ll be dropped, but they should have loose rules about it. Darby vs Havoc at least are earning a spot in a title match, and after other victories. In real combat sports, it’s not always the top contender that gets the title shot, but it is generally someone in the top 5 (at least in UFC it is). It depends on who is cleared and available.

If they make the rules too strict, there won’t be a lot of room for creativity.

Cult Icon
10-08-2019, 11:41 AM
If they did Pac vs. Jericho then everyone here would be wondering why the hell they didn't save Pac vs. Jericho, which is at least a semi-big match, for a situation where they could build it up more. Even with wins and losses mattering there's still some things you don't want to hot shot (especially since AEW is very dependent on drawing both ratings and PPV buys) and giving away Pac vs. Jericho on one week's build with the result obvious (Jericho isn't losing the title before the Cody match) would be dumb.

Plus, once you get beyond Pac, this match makes a ton of sense for this spot. I know people haven't seen it yet (it'll air tonight) but Darby Allin (who is 1-1-1) did beat CIMA prior to the first Dynamite taping and thus far he's the only guy to get close to beating Cody, the actual number one contender. If we are talking "quality of result" then that draw against Cody is mightily impressive and defeating CIMA, a guy who did take Kenny Omega to the limit at Fight for the Fallen, is also impressive. And Havoc won the triple threat match at All Out which was a decent deal. After them the next few people in line would be Omega, CIMA, Kip Sabian, MJF and Sonny Kiss, all guys who have identical records to Havoc and Allin (CIMA is 1-2, Omega is 1-2, Sabian is 1-1, MJF is 1-1, Sonny Kiss is 1-0). Pac is really the only person who you could 100% argue is ahead of them due to record and again, AEW would get roasted if they put Pac vs. Jericho for the title on one week's build with an obvious result, when that could realistically be the program for after Full Gear. So this isn't that farfetched, especially since I expect Allin will win. That would put him at 2-1-1 with two big wins and a draw against the current #1 contender; sounds good to me. Plus that could be a star making performance for him against Jericho.

It all makes more sense than what I would've done, which is Jericho vs. Dustin Rhodes (who is 0-1 in singles). But I'm a sentimental guy who would've been hyped for Dustin getting oh so close to the title, not to mention the connection to the Cody-Jericho feud.

Team Farrell
10-08-2019, 11:55 AM
I don’t think it’ll be dropped, but they should have loose rules about it. Darby vs Havoc at least are earning a spot in a title match, and after other victories. In real combat sports, it’s not always the top contender that gets the title shot, but it is generally someone in the top 5 (at least in UFC it is). It depends on who is cleared and available.

If they make the rules too strict, there won’t be a lot of room for creativity.
Bingo. I hope that they don't handcuff themselves with this "wins and losses matter" stuff. Even in legitimate competitive combat sports where wins and losses completely matter (in UFC you'll be cut entirely if you lose enough in a row) it's still a "work" in that they're trying to promote money fights so you might be better ranked than me, but if me vs the Champ is going to do a bigger number I might still get the shot even if you're healthy and ready to go.

I almost half think that they should lay off the gas of Cody being the "boss" and let Tony be in that Dana White role. Not as the on-screen commissioner or any bullshit like that, but as the owner in real life.

Then wins and losses can become part of the storytelling even if you'd like to book things that aren't adhering to records. Book Kenny vs Jericho for a PPV, have Tony announce it, and then have someone like Pac complain that he's higher ranked than a guy who hasn't won a match since AEW started.

I think a lot of people who were into the idea of "wins and losses matter" don't necessarily follow shoot combat sports and it's creating a little bit of a situation where they feel that the only thing that should matter is "this guy has x wins so he should be in a better position than the guy who has w". Not having "professional records" like they do in MMA (which would be a nightmare in pro wrestling) and having everyone walk into AEW with 0-0-0 records makes it a little difficult, too.

W/L records are hard to do with weekly TV where some guys are going to wrestle 20 times a year on Dynamite.

EDIT: I think that a Top 10 rankings list per division like UFC has would go a long way to helping. They can adjust the rankings almost live based on who wins what, but maybe the top five, or anyone in that top 10, is eligible for a title shot. Perhaps the number two ranked guy is eligible for an immediate title shot, but anyone else in the top 10 is eligible to be in a contendership match with anyone else in the top 10.

At the end of the day, the primary reason this "wins and losses matter" thing is happening is because it creates discussion. These are guys who know how to use social media really well, and these records (and doing things that don't necessarily jive with the records) create that discussion of "my guy should be in that spot because he has a record of x" and that can be a good, really fun, thing as long as fans don't get crazy serious about this shit. We all know wrestling fans could never take anything too seriously.

Prime Time
10-08-2019, 12:06 PM
The way I see it, there's two really effective ways that the W/L thing has been used in the past. One is the momentum thing, or what you might call the Goldberg example. If you give someone enough wins in a row, they quite clearly look like the number one contender and everyone thinks they deserve a shot. You then let that build to where they get that shot. Simple and easy to pull off, so long as you've got the right guy in the role that people don't turn on 'em.

Obviously you can't really run that one when everyone has had, like, three matches at best.

The other is you get a handful of people with similar-ish records, and you let people speculate on which one of those is 'better' than the others, drive a bit of tension and mystery that way, and eventually do a big reveal by the authority figure which gives you your match. Even though it was never their standard model I've seen WWE pull versions of this with a very different feel in the early 1990s, New Gen, Attitude Era, and in the aftermath of that. Only really seems to be in recent years they moved away from it completely.

Records are a really effective tool, but the question should be, what are you looking to build? What's the story? You don't abandon them because it undercuts so many other things you're trying to do and can lead to a sea of meaninglessness without being careful, but at the same time you don't follow them slavishly without an eye on what your end goal is.

Team Farrell
10-08-2019, 12:14 PM
I mean, I highly doubt that they do the W/L thing forever, but this is a brand new company. If they can get a year out of it before phasing out out I'd consider it a success.

It was Evolve's entire gimmick and they scrapped it eventually.

Prime Time
10-08-2019, 12:17 PM
I wouldn't mind betting that they stop showing the records on screen and the like, but again, I'd be disappointed if they dropped it completely.

Recent records and getting a clear relation between winning matches lately and recent title shots, so people can see the connection themselves, are all I think you really need.

LK3185
10-08-2019, 12:23 PM
If you have one show and a bunch of talent that you cant use every week, i think the wins and losses thing is an extra layer of protection for their top guys...but also, we haven’t seen everything that they wanna do with it all he stats and stuff. Last week on the debut was very standard without getting into all the added things

PEN15v2
10-08-2019, 12:31 PM
I noticed before the main event that the record shown by their names was a trios record. I liked that detail.

Keeping that in mind, I personally enjoy tag team feud built around TV singles matches. Bucks vs Lucha Bros for example would have been helped with TV matches between Pentagon vs Nick Jackson, then the next week Fenix vs Matt Jackson. I bring this up, because I'd be curious to see how singles records for tag competitors could be used. I wasn't watching NWA in the 80s, but I love how the rumor was the Rock N Roll Connection was almost split up to give Flair Ricky Morton as a challenger. I find that a fascinating possibility. Imagine post-Full Gear, they need to determine a new #1 contender, so they book a fatal 4way based on singles records only. And one of the people included is half of Private Party, and it's all because he's got a great singles record building up the team's feuds.

The W/L records are a great asset to AEW to start, but I do agree that over time it'll be removed. Not only have wrestling promotions erased these early gimmicks as they evolved, but I'll point to how Bellator MMA started as a tournament only promotion, but it became too restrictive, and now it's a standard fight card. BUT, Scott Coker does book more tournaments than UFC ever has, keeping the Bellator history in the mix today.

Anyhoo, AEW should use this W/L thing while it's hot.

typeitinmaan
10-08-2019, 01:15 PM
I have always considered myself a "WWE-only" type of guy because it felt like a chore to emotionally invest into other wrestling organization and characters when a company I grew up with has a history already in place. That being said, I did watch AEW Dynamite on Wednesday and came away impressed with what I saw. Here are some thoughts:

1.) They did an EXCELLENT job with pre-match promos and understanding that their audience would be a lot of people tuning in for the first time. I think WWE makes this mistake repeatedly with NXT to WWE call ups, assuming the fan base watches the yellow brand and will have a built in emotional investment to said character. AEW bridged the gap nicely by having well shot and to-the-point pre-match vignettes that told the necessary story needed to make the in-ring product match it.

I think Jericho's attack on Cody would've been a lot better had Rhodes been able to get some words in post match. He was clearly emotional and giving context to what opening the show meant could've made the eventual beat down that much better, as you juxtapose the emotion of a night with the intentions of Jericho.

I had no friggon clue who Sammy Guevera was but I felt like I could invest into his mission after hearing his story. To be 26-years old, a virtual unknown outside of dedicated wrestling fans, and put into that spot of opening the show against Cody Rhodes had to be a lot of pressure, and I was invested into how serious he took the challenge to be. For Cody, I felt he told more than just the vanilla "I'm not overlooking Sammy" narrative that they could've just played it safe with. Not only did Cody respect Guevera enough to say he wasn't over looking him, he gave insight into the ramifications of what a loss to him could be. To me, doing something like this checked two boxes:

1.) It gave the "WWE only" fan, or casual wrestling fan, a reason to invest without knowing the short history of the company and.

2.) It legitimized wrestling for any of the "wrestling is fake" crowd who happened to be channel surfing and saw this. The video vignettes were succint, authentic, and well intentioned to the point where even the skeptic of professional wrestling had to take notice.

You don't realize how numb you are to emotional investment in wrestling until a company comes along and makes the wins/losses matter again. This is an aspect AEW did a very nice job with. I feel right now in WWE, there isn't a lot at stake and I'm not told why someone needs to win. There seems to be this sense of entitlement with the top guys with WWE to where they're almost expected to be in the spots they're in and everything is carefully crafted around that.

Justin Roberts, Tony Schiavone, and Jim Ross were all EXCELLENT hires! It felt like a nice blend of WCW when it was at its best and WWE attitude era when it was clicking as well. Establishing your own identity with home grown guys is important, but these three add legitimacy to the product. Roberts announcing is crisp and gives everything a big match feel, Jim Ross paints such a great picture during the course of a match and his reactions come off natural, and Schiavone is just a smooth operator in general. You get the wrong guys for announcing/color commentary and this entire show could've had a different feel.

MJF comes off as a great natural heel and Brandon Cutler was the perfect opponent character wise as the guy who was just happy to have the opportunity to be doing this again. Perfect way for a first TV impression to come off.

I have mixed feelings about Riho Vs. Nyla Rose. From an in-ring story telling perspective, these two knocked it out of the park. Again, I know absolutely nothing about either of these women but found myself getting behind Riho becoming champion. It's a simple story to be told of undersized underdog vs. favored giant, and I'll be damned if it doesn't work almost every time. When Riho originally tried to pick her up and failed, you could feel the pain and that is what SHOULD be coming across to fans. I do have to say, I think they missed the boat on story telling here. You have the first openly transgender wrestler ever, and that is absolutely something that should have been played up here to a new audience watching for the first time. I suppose you could make the case that a topic like that is still controversial and it could do more harm than good, but it plays into the all inclusive mission the company has really pushed hard for. The transgender competitor in main stream competition is still something unique and largely untold to the 4 major sports and I think it would've given them yet another emotional topic to connect with a new audience on. I suppose the skeptic could say that acknowledging the transgender thing could open up a can of worms about whether or not she should compete against women, but I honestly would've doubled down on it given the direction they seem to be going. They missed the boat on Rhio though, too. They could have easily played up the fact that she's just 22 years old and main evented a wrestling show at the age of 13. Maybe they felt the "David vs. Goliath" and precedent of crowning a new champion was enough, but if ever a video package should've been put together- it should've been for this match.


Overall, good show and for someone fairly new to this organization I found it to be a fresh alternative to WWE. Some of that is probably "new car smell" that will wear off, but I saw a lot of good things they're intentionally doing different than WWE.

I would err on the side of caution though as far as their rating goes. Keep in mind that TNA's big show on January 4, 2010, when they somewhat competed with WWE, garnered 2.5 million viewers and 2.2 million viewers respectively for those two hours and they fell off a cliff every week after. The initial buzz is going to wear off and people will settle into a new normal, naturally elevating their expectations for the show. Is AEW up to the challenge?

Forgive me for not touching on everything, maybe even some of the obvious, but these were what stuck out to me as really a first time AEW watcher.

Oliver
10-09-2019, 07:04 AM
W/L records are hard to do with weekly TV where some guys are going to wrestle 20 times a year on Dynamite.

I think this is, perhaps, the biggest flaw in it for me. Someone like PAC, are you really going to hand them a defeat on TV regularly enough to hold off on a title match until a big money point in time, but without bringing him to a point where he's not seen as a half decent threat?

Maybe they need to do a kind of form table, rather than an overall W/L thing - a 'last 10' or something.

I mean, if someone goes 0-5 now, but then wins 10 on the spin, they could be 10-5. But the form they've been on might be better than someone who's 10-5 but lost every third match regularly.

Probably ties a bit into both of Prime's examples - you get a 'streak' as well as a question of which 10-5 wrestler is better.

Kleckamania
10-09-2019, 09:11 AM
I personally think they should never do away with the win/loss approach, and doing so would be detrimental to their viewership.

First it separates them from WWE, and most every other fed. It shows you as the viewer why this person deserves to be in a title match, as opposed to companies like WWE doing the whole 'just cause' approach. Second, their target demo dominantly watch sports. Wins and losses creates its own narrative, and shows the audience the consequence of defeat, which builds suspense for wins all in its own. Doing away with it ever, honestly is an extremely foolish idea. Don't toss out what makes you unique. Especially when it is something their target demo lean on for easy narrative.

The average 20-30 something guy can tune in after a few weeks and know what is going on based on records. Whereas if you do away with that, they will lose audience members, as some will feel like they've fallen too far behind in the narrative if they miss a few episodes, then they just drift from the product altogether- it's all about accessibility. The day they do away with wins/losses is the day their company starts dying a slow death imho, because it is the day they are no different from WWE. And WWE may be terrible at booking, but they are light years ahead in production value.

I do think having tie breakers is crucial though, and maybe annual tournaments. In sports, if two teams are tied they go by head to head, e.t.c. Have annual tournies where only the top 8 make it in or something. Who doesnt love a tourney? And definitely create some room for who can contend, but make it well known. Like anyone in the top 5 can compete for the belt at any time.

Wins/losses are easy narrative. I can say personally the day they do away with that approach is the day I start losing interest. And I imagine they are trying to lure in guys who love sports. Those fans won't stick around once you take that easy narrative away.

LK3185
10-09-2019, 09:23 AM
You can justify Pac not getting an early title shot because of the way he wins matches.. like needing low blows should penalize you more than when you just beat someone fair.. it could also alter how someone deals with a match. You know if you cheat, its not really advantageous in the long term but in short term, if you just want revenge, that could work.

Rob S.
10-09-2019, 09:59 AM
Bea Priestly and Sakura vs. Britt Baker and Riho has also been announced for tonight's show

Cult Icon
10-09-2019, 12:06 PM
It's interesting how AEW's strategy is differing from NXT's. You look at tonight's AEW show and while it looks pretty good, the matches aren't anything that's going to be anything in the Match of the Year discussion (at least I don't think). Meanwhile NXT has Lio Rush vs. Drew Gulak, Roderick Strong vs. Isaiah Scott and Walter vs. KUSHIDA, three matches that should be really good. It seems to me (at least right now) that AEW is willing to take it slow with big matches on TV in order to save those for the big shows, while NXT is doing the opposite. I'm not sure if either is the wisest move honestly.

PEN15v2
10-09-2019, 12:19 PM
If they stuck to strictly those plans, I'd say AEW has the wiser method, as it'll be better long term. But I don't believe either will be staying this course forever. I'm guessing NXT continues with attraction matches to get the numbers up, but if/when they are steadily winning the ratings, AEW will likely ramp up their style...etc. And, the obvious flaw in NXT's method is they will eventually run out of marquee matchups.

That said, barring bringing names like Cena to NXT, none of the NXT matches are really marquee.

LK3185
10-09-2019, 12:20 PM
I want to see how AEW develops their characters, what is done with Jericho’s stabe more than just the matches. NXT has really just focused on the wrestling and while that has been pretty good, it doesn’t make me too interested in the characters

Cult Icon
10-09-2019, 12:32 PM
That said, barring bringing names like Cena to NXT, none of the NXT matches are really marquee.

This is why I believe AEW will win the ratings again comfortably tonight. If nothing else they ended last week with that strong angle with Jericho's stable (plus Moxley attacking Omega), which should serve as some sort of hook tonight as people look for an explanation. Maybe NXT can do the same thing playing up Balor and Ciampa going after Cole (although I haven't seen a whole lot of that on social media) but beyond that...I mean KUSHIDA and Walter are both great and that match should be really strong, but they're not drawing a huge audience at this point between them. Neither is Gulak-Rush and Roddy-Scott. Until NXT builds up these guys more this is going to be an issue and if they're giving away these matches without adding some character elements to them...yeah.

PEN15v2
10-09-2019, 03:11 PM
Those are all non-factors. The truth is that TNT and AEW are doing a great job in marketing, and have pushing this for longer. NXT was announced almost last minute. So NXT will likely continue doing what they are currently doing, and in my opinion, putting out a better Wednesday night show. I'm guessing the hope is for the reputation to push the ratings over AEW in time. I think that's a solid game plan, IF both shows remain as we saw from week one. AEW won't be stupid. If they start losing viewers to NXT, they'll change their program in some way too.

mizfan
10-09-2019, 04:46 PM
I was just coming in here to heave a sigh that Darby (who I love) is in line for a possible title shot coming off a loss, but then I remembered he beat CIMA on AEW Dark and felt better about it. As far as wins and losses go, my only real ask is that guys who just took a clear cut loss don't immediately get rewarded with a big match. If you lose, I want to see them get built back up just a bit before going right into something big.

Kleckamania
10-09-2019, 08:36 PM
Jericho just nearly gave me a boner. One of the best promos of the past 30 years. Mother of Grod that was awesome.

Cult Icon
10-09-2019, 10:19 PM
I was at last week's show. I did not think this show had a chance to be better than last week. It was VASTLY better than last week. The opening match tag (which won't be for everyone but was right in my wheelhouse), the Jericho promo, Pac at the announcer's booth, the main event, the main event angle, JACK EVANS REACTIONS AT RINGSIDE! 10/10. What a great week of shows between this, NWA Powerrr and I presume NXT.

Kleckamania
10-09-2019, 10:29 PM
Minus the women's tag match, and the ref seeing a DQ but not calling it in the main event, AEW week 2 was rocketship spectacular. That tag opener, and Y2J's promo were fucking sensational.

comfortablynumb
10-09-2019, 10:44 PM
I thought it was a great show. Nice to see Jericho leading a stable. The only person I really can’t stand from tonight is Jimmy Havoc. I don’t see anything positive about that hack.

There’s too much good wrestling on Wednesday. I’ll try to live with it though.

Cult Icon
10-09-2019, 10:55 PM
Lol poor Bryce. The intent was definitely for Guevara to distract him while Hager (or is it Hagar; Jericho was definitely calling him Hagar like he was the lead singer of the worst incarnation of Van Halen) and yet he had to look up while Hager was still in the ring. I'll let that one slide because they were at least trying to distract him and he just looked up too early, unlike last week where the Moxley thing was a clear DQ and they were just like "NOPE!"

I liked the women's tag but it was definitely the weak link if we're going by overall quality. Riho and Emi Sakura are really good, Bea Priestley strikes me as someone who can be really good but hasn't had the right opportunity and Britt Baker...I don't know. I thought she looked really good back at Double or Nothing and I thought she was better tonight than the last few times, but there's no question she was lacking at Fight for the Fallen (even before the concussion), she wasn't that impressive in the Casino Battle Royal and was the worst performer last week in that AEW Dark tag match. I don't know if she's just having poor performances at the wrong time or if she just had a fluke performance at Double or Nothing, but she's definitely been the least impressive female thus far. The other three were just fine though. Hopefully they use Emi Sakura more; she's not as well known as Meiko Satomura is but is similar in being a really great performer for a long time who is finally getting opportunities.



There’s too much good wrestling on Wednesday. I’ll try to live with it though.


Wednesday is the new wrestling night! Actually it was always the wrestling night; AEW has just taken Lucha Underground's place now. Imagine if LU were still around? WHY DO YOU DO THIS TO YOURSELF CULT?!

PEN15v2
10-09-2019, 10:55 PM
Here's a great clip of the Young Bucks "wrestling"

https://youtu.be/c_s6bxhKhd8

That opener was almost enough for me to turn this show off, but I'll stick around for this supposed great promo.

LK3185
10-09-2019, 11:53 PM
Thought the show was miles better than last week. The Bucks putting Private Party in a great match, good Jericho promo ( wasnt all time great to me..Jericho sounded like he had a little bit of the bubbly) giving Havoc some insert promo was smart, Darby is a star. Show ending was another great one that makes hype for next week

Oliver
10-10-2019, 05:52 AM
It's interesting how AEW's strategy is differing from NXT's. You look at tonight's AEW show and while it looks pretty good, the matches aren't anything that's going to be anything in the Match of the Year discussion (at least I don't think). Meanwhile NXT has Lio Rush vs. Drew Gulak, Roderick Strong vs. Isaiah Scott and Walter vs. KUSHIDA, three matches that should be really good. It seems to me (at least right now) that AEW is willing to take it slow with big matches on TV in order to save those for the big shows, while NXT is doing the opposite. I'm not sure if either is the wisest move honestly.

I think both shows are in a different place though, Cult. AEW is world/universe building, whereas NXT has done that bit already and drop some of these bigger matches in because pretty much everyone is already established in terms of character and motivations. Plus, they can pull rabbits like Balor coming back and Ciampa returning where we already know what their purpose is (well, we know what Ciampa's purpose is. I'm not convinced Balor has a purpose except to have an absurd number of abs and be very good at face painting. I wonder if he's available for birthdays and b'not mitzvah) and what they're going to want to do. Meanwhile AEW pulls out Jake Hagrid and then has to take a few weeks to get over why he exists - an existential question to which they may find there is no answer.

Also, you're a bastard for having me imagine how good Wednesday's could be if there was an hour of season 5 to watch as well. But if there was then maybe AEW would look quite different. So who knows whether that would be a good or bad thing.

I might just rewatch LU from the start now.

This week's show was, on the whole, a step up from last week for sure. I feel a little bit of Pen's pain on watching the Young Bucks wrestle - similarly to Randy Orton, when they aren't motivated it feels like they switch into 'going through the motions' mode and it becomes a bit of a spot to spot thing, rather than a focused match. This felt somewhere in the middle of their two gears. Jericho's promo was great, PAC is the BEST right now, and all the other matches delivered for me. I have a love/hate relationship with AEW going as deep into the WCW show ending territory as possible two weeks in a row, with the only thing missing being Schiavone shouting 'we're outta time, folks!' on commentary, and feel like they just need one of these early shows where the main event, or post-main event, stuff doesn't devolve into a brawl with a bunch of faces turning up to further feuds and get that 'tune in next week to see what happens' hype, but for now it's OK. Just not too many.

Kleckamania
10-10-2019, 10:52 AM
I didn't notice a lot of no selling from the Bucks this time, I thought if anything they seemed a slight bit more mature, or toned down. The big reason I thought the match was an outstanding opener is that they put over a big time underdog, and got the crowd fired up. It was a fast paced, spectacle kind of match, and a great swerve by AEW to show fans they aren't just gonna go with what's logical, or obvious just because. I also got swerved by that false finish shortly before by Kassady (?) . Figured that made it obvious the Bucks were about to win. That was a finish booked on different levels. I was impressed.

And Y2J shooting on the fans about "We the people" was when that promo hit legend status for me. Without even missing a beat he turned it into a sell for AEW while connecting with fans as to why they no longer watch WWE. You could even see Hager trying not to break out of character with a grin. I think the tipsy vibe was just the persona he is going for. I plan on watching that promo again today to see if it hits me the way it did last night. It felt perfect in the moment.

Team Farrell
10-10-2019, 11:10 AM
I didn't mind the opening match. It was a fast-paced spot-heavy opener but I was far from offended by it.

I though that the overall show was better than last week's but that women's tag match was nap time for me. Emi Sakura didn't blow me away, Bea Priestly is aggressively terrible (and unsafe it appears) and Riho just does nothing for me.

That main event tag match was a lot of fun, as was Mox vs Spears. I don't know why you'd let one of your three mainstream names take a bump onto his head into the barricade, but it is what it is.

I do have a question, though. Is this a company where there are no "stars" and everyone is just on the same level? Because Spears took a heat on Mox that went on so long because of the commercial PiP that it was almost too much at one point. It's like Jericho's attack from last week on Cody.

The closing brawl was pretty good, and the non-swerve with MJF was appreciated.

I wasn't so high on Jericho's promo as some were. I feel a little bit like he's pulling somewhat of a Don Callis now that he had no writers and being a little self serving and swearing for the sake of swearing, but we'll see.

I'll tune in next week because Darby Allin has grown on me.

Oliver
10-10-2019, 11:23 AM
I did love Allin coming down the ramp on a skateboard, I must say. Makes me want to see him use the new Raw set as a half pipe.


I do have a question, though. Is this a company where there are no "stars" and everyone is just on the same level?

I think so - I think AEW is trying to initially put out a competitive field wherein nobody is especially 'low' on the totem pole, if that makes sense. It probably ties back to wins and losses mattering - if you have that as an edict, then you have to make it feel pretty even in terms of whether or not talent can win a particular match.

I should also say - I love Jimmy Havoc with my whole heart.

Team Farrell
10-10-2019, 11:36 AM
I did love Allin coming down the ramp on a skateboard, I must say. Makes me want to see him use the new Raw set as a half pipe.

The first thing I thought when I saw it was that it looked like a skateboard ramp.

Thinking back on Jericho's promo, the part where he buries "we the people" would hold a lot more water if Hager wasn't still doing the pose at every one of his MMA weigh ins and photo ops.

Powder
10-10-2019, 11:55 AM
He won't now that Jericho buried it.

Cult Icon
10-10-2019, 12:03 PM
If Hager keeps doing the chant, sure it's dumb. But the whole point of that segment last night was to establish that the Jake Hager you see is not going to be the guy you saw in WWE. He's not the "we the people" guy. Even without that line from Jericho (who I'm pretty sure improvised that line on the spot given he stopped while the fans were chanting) the whole point of that section was to establish that Jake Hager is a different guy than the one you used to know and quite frankly I thought Jericho did a hell of a job. You also didn't hear any other "we the people" chants the rest of the night (at least I didn't) so it seems like it effectively killed the chant at least for the rest of the show. Maybe that'll change going forward but for last night it was effective, and overall I thought the promo was a home run in Jericho both getting his group over and introducing them.

That's really been the best thing AEW has done these past few weeks; establishing new players. Even if you didn't love the Private Party-Young Bucks match for the style or whatever reason (and I personally thought it did a hell of a job featuring spots while also having great selling from Isaiah Kassidy and some really nice storytelling beats) you can't deny that the match and most importantly the victory instantly established those two as, at worst, budding stars, something they weren't even after impressive performances on the Fyter Fest and All Out Pre-Shows. LAX are bigger deals than before just by standing next to Jericho. You may not like Riho Coach but I can tell you now that she got one of the biggest reactions of the show I went too last week when she won the title (after getting a decent but not super reaction walking out) and she was the most over woman in that tag match tonight. Sammy Guevara before that Cody match was just a dude; now he's a guy who took Cody to the limit, is in main events teaming with Chris Jericho and is on his way to being a credible main event heel. And there's no doubt that Darby Allin came out of tonight looking like a star and he's going to be even bigger after next week if he and Jericho deliver. That's two tag teams, one woman's star and two young singles guys who in two weeks have gone from "people on the roster" to buzz worthy players. That's pretty damn good.

And by the by, they have a certified superstar and his name is Jon Moxley. He was super over last week, he seemed to be the most over guy on this show besides Jericho and Darby Allin's awesome skateboard spot and while he did go for awhile against Shawn Spears it never once felt like it diminished him (if anything, I thought Mox made Shawn Spears look far better than he had previously in AEW). Pen and I were talking about this last night (I'm sure he'll elaborate on his thoughts later) and energy around him reminded both of us of a few years ago when he should've been the guy pushed in WWE, only for him to instead he got swallowed by holograms and exploding TV's. He's got that momentum back right now. He's the guy, which makes the Omega match so intriguing as far as the result goes.

Team Farrell
10-10-2019, 12:19 PM
I don't think that Hager does the chant, it's just that hand over the heart pose that he always used to do is his go-to for photo ops. I don't imagine he's going to quit something he's become associated with in real life because Jericho decided to cut off some chants.

Riho doesn't bother me at all, I just couldn't be less interested in her. Nothing she does seems to have much on it because she's so small, so I just don't like seeing people sell for her.

Mox is still my favourite part of the company. He's probably been one of my facourite things in pro wrestling since the G1. You really could tell last night that he's had a serious upper body injury, though. Hopefully he can get back into the shape he was in before the injury.

Those PiP commercial breaks are starting to get to me a little, though. Because US commercial breaks are so long, seeing Jericho or Spears beat down the guys they're working with for like three straight minutes just feels a bit much. Last week with Cody and Jericho felt like the Family Guy chicken gag. This week was at least a match, but could have used a hope spot somewhere in there just to break things up a little.

I liked last night's show better than the week before. It dragged a little bit toward the end, though. I'm sure part of it was that I was out when it was on live and actually watched it from 8-10 local time so after the Mox/Spears match I asked out loud how much time was left. For me, I think it was that women's tag match that felt like it lasted a month.

LK3185
10-10-2019, 01:46 PM
Dusty's daughter called Jericho's use of Dusty to be lazy and I agree, probably not for her personal reasons though. Jericho's comment about Dusty was boring and shows he has no teeth behind it. Just to get a reaction and the thing is, Cody can and should go after Jericho way harder than that.

I still liked Jericho's promo but thought the family stuff overall was forced.

comfortablynumb
10-10-2019, 01:50 PM
Someone mentioned it above but I did like Jericho pronouncing Jake Hager like Sammy Hagar's name.

Another small thing I noticed, and maybe he did it at the summer events, was Justin Roberts giving Mox the John Cena treatment when it came to the way he says "John."

PEN15v2
10-10-2019, 02:56 PM
If Hager keeps doing the chant, sure it's dumb. But the whole point of that segment last night was to establish that the Jake Hager you see is not going to be the guy you saw in WWE. He's not the "we the people" guy. Even without that line from Jericho (who I'm pretty sure improvised that line on the spot given he stopped while the fans were chanting) the whole point of that section was to establish that Jake Hager is a different guy than the one you used to know and quite frankly I thought Jericho did a hell of a job. You also didn't hear any other "we the people" chants the rest of the night (at least I didn't) so it seems like it effectively killed the chant at least for the rest of the show. Maybe that'll change going forward but for last night it was effective, and overall I thought the promo was a home run in Jericho both getting his group over and introducing them.

That's really been the best thing AEW has done these past few weeks; establishing new players. Even if you didn't love the Private Party-Young Bucks match for the style or whatever reason (and I personally thought it did a hell of a job featuring spots while also having great selling from Isaiah Kassidy and some really nice storytelling beats) you can't deny that the match and most importantly the victory instantly established those two as, at worst, budding stars, something they weren't even after impressive performances on the Fyter Fest and All Out Pre-Shows. LAX are bigger deals than before just by standing next to Jericho. You may not like Riho Coach but I can tell you now that she got one of the biggest reactions of the show I went too last week when she won the title (after getting a decent but not super reaction walking out) and she was the most over woman in that tag match tonight. Sammy Guevara before that Cody match was just a dude; now he's a guy who took Cody to the limit, is in main events teaming with Chris Jericho and is on his way to being a credible main event heel. And there's no doubt that Darby Allin came out of tonight looking like a star and he's going to be even bigger after next week if he and Jericho deliver. That's two tag teams, one woman's star and two young singles guys who in two weeks have gone from "people on the roster" to buzz worthy players. That's pretty damn good.

And by the by, they have a certified superstar and his name is Jon Moxley. He was super over last week, he seemed to be the most over guy on this show besides Jericho and Darby Allin's awesome skateboard spot and while he did go for awhile against Shawn Spears it never once felt like it diminished him (if anything, I thought Mox made Shawn Spears look far better than he had previously in AEW). Pen and I were talking about this last night (I'm sure he'll elaborate on his thoughts later) and energy around him reminded both of us of a few years ago when he should've been the guy pushed in WWE, only for him to instead he got swallowed by holograms and exploding TV's. He's got that momentum back right now. He's the guy, which makes the Omega match so intriguing as far as the result goes.

The "we the people thing" leading to pandering was lame overall. I appreciate why he did it, and it did effectively kill the chants at that moment. But, the simple bashing of everything WWE is tiresome and lame.

AEW has to create new stars. You didn't compare to WWE, so exclude yourself from this part, but I've seen a lot of AEW praise about how much they are superior to WWE at creating stars in just 2 weeks. It's a terrible and extremely flawed argument. WWE has established stars, and therefore don't need to create new ones at the same path as AEW is. They can take their time, experiment, and create stars at their leisure, while using their immense roster of already existing established stars. This isn't to say WWE is treating their established stars well, because that's another discussion altogether. But praising AEW for doing what they need to do isn't exactly noteworthy. I've compared AEW's 2019 to TNA's 2002 several times, and it's increasingly apt. TNA needed to create stars in AJ Styles and Low Ki in the first 2 weeks because they didn't have a lot of established names to work with. AEW are in the same position. They are certainly doing a great job at it, so this isn't a criticism of AEW, but more of the fans saying "here's why it's better than WWE" because it's just not true. A then unknown Seth Rollins won the NXT title by beating Jinder Mahal back in 2011-2012. Creating stars for a new show is always essential.

As for Jon Moxley, Cult, you know I was done with him for a while. I got excited for the WWE 2018 Dean Ambrose heel turn, but it quickly faded. I'm not sure how much of his complaints post-WWE are valid, but there's no doubt that he was not the same character he is now, and he's so much better as Moxley than Ambrose. It's more natural to see him just be mean. I'm trusting the compliments that he's better in the ring, though I haven't watched. I do believe it, but I can't say it for a fact. What I can say is that his match VS Spears was so much better than anything he's done in WWE since... maybe the original post-Shield break up. He just seems for much more comfortable in this role, and it translates very well through the TV screen. Of all the potential mainstream stars AEW has, Jon Moxley is the one I'd strap the rocket to if I were in AEW.

And yes, I likely will expand on this with a column in the near future.

Cult Icon
10-10-2019, 04:19 PM
Ratings are in. AEW was again the winner with 1,018 million viewers compared to NXT's 790K viewers. Both promotions dropped from last week; NXT went down about 101K from 891K last week while AEW dropped 391K from last week's 1.409 million viewers. AEW also once again doubled NXT in several key demos and only lost to NXT in the 50+ demo, much like last week. No word on the ratings AEW got for TruTV which suggests they were low. All in all I think what most people expected.

Edit: AEW did about 122K viewers on TruTV, which brings their total to 1,140 million viewers overall. That's still down from last week but it's a 269K drop compared to a 391K drop, which is definitely easier to swallow.

LK3185
10-10-2019, 04:40 PM
Tru tv got 121K for AEW

I feel this is roughly where things will sit going forward

Cult Icon
10-10-2019, 04:47 PM
We'll see. NXT has been losing an average of 129.6K viewers since their first week but they held viewers pretty well all things considered this week. It's impossible to say with AEW because this is only the first week with a drop; if they do the same as NXT then the drops would theoretically be less as time goes on. The problem is there's so little crossover between the two sides it seems that it doesn't appear either is affecting the others rating all that much, which makes it more difficult to judge. There's also baseball to consider as well for both (although I never really love using sports as an excuse for poor ratings).

LK3185
10-10-2019, 05:06 PM
I don’t really count sports except football. The drop isn’t massive enough to me and baseball is skewing Older and market specific


AEW is doubling NXT in the main demo and did as well last week which tells me that trend wont end even if they both keep dropping

Cult Icon
10-10-2019, 05:20 PM
It's pretty wild to me how AEW's audience skews so young while NXT's average audience is about 55 years old. 55! That definitely explains why AEW is more popular on social media, although I'm struggling to figure out just why NXT, which is supposed to be drawing in younger viewers, is having such trouble.

LK3185
10-10-2019, 06:15 PM
They only way I could explain it is that the overall WWE brand is going older and the NXT fans that are younger are watching AEW instead, live. I wouldn't think the old WWE fan would like NXT though.

mizfan
10-11-2019, 04:49 PM
Really loved the show overall, I'm not a Young Bucks guy but the first match blew away my expectations. It was fast paced but they also built up the intensity perfectly, and every nearfall felt like it mattered a whole lot. The post match main event stuff was just beautiful to me, love a wrestling angle involving a whole bunch of parties who all have slightly different stakes. Bring on the eventual War Games match.

I noticed a couple people saying the Jericho promo stuff about Dusty was lazy or forced. I kind of get that viewpoint, but the whole appeal of Jericho's character to me is he's this unstable rockstar who is haphazardly riding the line between brilliant success and collapsing into a heap of failure at any moment. I thought it fit his character to be throwing out casually nasty comments like that. He didn't say Dusty was in hell or something, he just called him a jerk, which was actually not an unheard of feeling about Dusty in the industry before he returned to beloved status over the past several years (deservedly so in my opinion, but even so). I hope they don't go to the Dusty well too much, but it didn't bother me a bit when it come up here because it wasn't overboard and felt like it fit the situation.

Prime Time
10-11-2019, 05:58 PM
I did check out that promo because of the hype (and because my issues have nothing to do with Jericho) and I thought you'd have been much more bothered by the bit where he said Hager's undefeated MMA record was a shoot, and that made him tougher than everyone in AEW.

mizfan
10-11-2019, 06:57 PM
That actually did bug me, far more than anything else he said! I liked the rest of the promo enough to overlook it but I hope Jericho drops comments like that one.

Cult Icon
10-11-2019, 07:14 PM
That was the only part of the promo I thought was off too, and you could notice the crowd thought so as well because it got the worst reaction of anything he said. But beyond that I thought the whole thing was money. I don't know if it was the greatest promo ever like some are saying but for what it was trying to do it was a complete success.

Degenerate
10-11-2019, 09:53 PM
I just finished watching this week's show and thought it was really solid overall.

The Young Bucks / Private Party match was a really awesome match and really set a good tone for the rest of the night. Who knew that having exciting matches to open a televised wrestling show would be so much fun? </sarcasm>

The Inner Circle / Jericho promo was great in the sense that it presented these guys as a force to be reckoned with. Last week I was a bit doubtful how it would play out since I really don't know much about anyone outside of Jericho and Hager and thought the other guys were kinda just thrown together for the hell of it. But the promo brought them together. I love it when there are strong stables and they're treated as such. I'm looking forward to seeing how this group evolves and what other stables come out of this.

The PAC / Moxley / Omega triangle is getting really interesting. These are all main event level guys and mixing them in a storyline is bound to bring some amazing stuff soon.

The women's match was alright, but something seems a little off to me. I think it's because they're trying to force Japanese styles with the American style for the women and it's not meshing well. Or maybe they just need to mix it up more with the likes of Awesome Kong and Nyla Rose. They have a talented female roster so I'm sure it'll improve.

I'm really enjoying what AEW has done so far. They've kept the crazy stuff that a lot of people expected to an absolute minimum and have been trying their best to highlight their strengths a lot.

Oliver
10-12-2019, 01:36 AM
I thought the worst thing about Jericho's promo was Sammy Guevara's bloody stupid haircut.

mizfan
10-12-2019, 11:55 AM
Sammy Guevara's incredibly punchable face and general vibe can only be an asset to him now that he's turned. Thank god they didn't try to keep him as a babyface.

LK3185
10-12-2019, 01:41 PM
He was never really a babyface on the roster ,they just Painted him as a blue chip athlete in vids

Its not a big issue but when you show the humN side of someome it can come off baby face

Degenerate
10-12-2019, 07:15 PM
I watch the BTE series on YouTube, and there Sammy Guevara is always presented as a huge two-faced asshole. That's how I always viewed his character. They had never really shown that on any of the AEW televised shows until now, I guess.

LK3185
10-12-2019, 10:29 PM
Yeah the BTE has him as two faced asshole, the road to vids there's one where he talks about how good he is and the match with Cody but it came off more honest. His matches in AEW he's always been the cocky heel.

mizfan
10-14-2019, 10:44 AM
Fair enough, I'll amend my statement to thank god they firmly committed to his asshole character onscreen!

LK3185
10-14-2019, 02:35 PM
Ha wasnt coming down on ya MF but just wasnt sure where you saw him portrayed as a face besides like one video

mizfan
10-14-2019, 04:51 PM
All good! I did in fact know they had the running gimmick on BTE where everyone hated Sammy, but I think it's important to commit to the role for the TV viewers since that's where they've got the most eyes.

LK3185
10-14-2019, 05:17 PM
Indeed that is very important, you can be human and still have selfish goals and be an asshole. I dont think the curtain needs to be pulled back so to speak where you want to root for every one

LK3185
10-17-2019, 04:24 PM
1,014M for AEW last night. .042 demo

712K for NXT .020 demo

Degenerate
10-18-2019, 09:03 PM
A slight decrease for AEW, but over a million people watching is good. Also it's not as much of a decrease as NXT, which has lost almost to half its viewership since debuting on USA. Still, I do think it's kind of silly that people are comparing ratings, though. I get they're both wrestling shows on the same timeslot but they're comparing one company's main and only Cable TV show against another company's third and far less a priority compared to the other two. Oh well, it is what it is.

I finally got around to seeing this week's show and I thought it was another solid outing. I really dug most of the matches. SCU vs. Best Friends was another good opener. Jungle Boy and Marko Stunt vs. Lucha Bros. far exceeded what I thought it would be. PAC/Mox vs. Omega/Page was a fun mix to further a couple of storylines. Darby Allin looked great and Jericho made him look like a star. The in-ring work is pretty damn good and the matchups feel fresh to me, especially since we don't see the same cast every single week, so I'm really liking it.

It feels like the company is settling down and getting into a groove, and people look more comfortable in what they're doing.

mizfan
10-21-2019, 11:25 AM
Still, I do think it's kind of silly that people are comparing ratings, though. I get they're both wrestling shows on the same timeslot but they're comparing one company's main and only Cable TV show against another company's third and far less a priority compared to the other two. Oh well, it is what it is.

I think part of it is that NXT has been touted as WWE's "best" brand by far for so long, and that fans who like AEW are the same fans who like NXT and vice versa. I think the data has shown that's not nearly so much the case as people originally thought, but the idea is still there.

PEN15v2
10-21-2019, 12:20 PM
I couldn't give 2 shits about ratings, and I don't understand why the discussion is so heated on many sites. But I get why it happens. It's veracity of the discussion that shocks me.

mizfan
10-21-2019, 12:26 PM
Absolutely, I'm rooting for AEW to win but I'm not out to attack NXT or get into fights with fans about how they want to look at the data.

LK3185
10-21-2019, 12:29 PM
I don't really care about the discussion but the fact is that good ratings,or at least what TNT is/was expecting are important for the survival of the company and by beating NXT week after week causes more tension behind the scenes for WWE, then so be it. I don't think it makes WWE better as its not 20 years ago and WWE is in a totally different place now

Cult Icon
10-21-2019, 12:53 PM
I couldn't give 2 shits about ratings, and I don't understand why the discussion is so heated on many sites. But I get why it happens. It's veracity of the discussion that shocks me.

Brand warfare. It's been this way regarding fans of rival brands since the dawn of time. Coke vs. Pepsi, Nintendo vs. Sega, Burger King vs. McDonalds, WCW vs. WWE; the list goes on and on. You're always going to get extremists in the respective fan bases who think their side is the best, the other side is the worst and the push back is going to lead to heated exchanges across social media, Reddit and the works (it's especially bad on Reddit).

Frankly I think most of the back and forth just comes from the loudest minority of fans from each side. On the whole though I don't think there's any rational fan, media member or wrestler that wants the other side to fail. People may have rooting interests and such; like mizfan I definitely want AEW to do well and have little interest in what WWE puts out (although that would've been the case regardless). But I have no desire to RAW, Smackdown or NXT fail or get taken off TV because holy shit that would be disastrous for the entire industry. This is the thing the extremists on both sides fail to understand. If any one of AEW, WWE or even Impact or ROH goes a way then wrestlers lose a place to work, lose a place to make money and it becomes much harder to break through because there's only so many promotions available with so many slots. It's so pointless to root for something like that...and yet people will do it anyway because, whether it's brand loyalty, a dislike for certain people involved or what not, people have the pathological need to pick a side in this situation.

Oliver
10-22-2019, 09:15 AM
The other thing with ratings - and as others above say, I don't really care one way or the other about them - is that AEW airs once and that's it (well, I assume there are some repeats on TNT over a week, but regardless) whereas NXT is pretty much immediately available to watch on the Network straight after the show airs. So why not watch AEW live and then catch NXT on catch up?

I've said it elsewhere - I'm just glad to have four hours of wrestling shows I actually want to watch in a week now. That hasn't been the case for ages.

LK3185
10-22-2019, 10:18 AM
in the states, if you have a DVR you can record both and they do count those in overnight ratings later if you watch it off the DVR.. And I know AEW airs replays of some sort at random times.

Kleckamania
10-23-2019, 12:42 AM
They air Dynamite at 10pm Wednesdays, immediately after the initial airing.

NXT isn't uploaded for typically 2-3 days to the Network after it airs on USA.

Ratings matter. They matter to these companies, which causes them to change things if ratings aren't where they want them to be, which affects us fans.

Hoping WWE doesn't start filling up NXT with main roster rejects like Finn Balor soon, in hopes that it will spike ratings...

Cult Icon
10-23-2019, 02:12 AM
No worries there Kleck. The vastly overrated Finn Balor couldn't spike a football, let alone a rating.

Kleckamania
10-23-2019, 09:31 AM
No worries there Kleck. The vastly overrated Finn Balor couldn't spike a football, let alone a rating.

My worry is he is gonna crap up my NXT. Maybe AEW will take him? I believe Riho can beat him.

Cult Icon
10-23-2019, 10:19 AM
Riho would Goldberg squash him in 30 seconds. It be like that time Goldberg wiped La Parka off the face of the earth, minus the terrible leg injury Parka suffered because Riho isn't dangerous in the ring.

Kleckamania
10-23-2019, 02:34 PM
I'd actually believe her no selling Finn's offense. I mean it's just like 76 weak, half hearted Sling Blades in a row. If he were in Tyson's Punchout he would be Glass Joe.

comfortablynumb
10-23-2019, 11:07 PM
AEW needs to avoid footage of Wardlow running. I know nothing about him and the vignette looked impressive until he started running.

I’m liking the Inner Circle as a group.

Having wrestlers make their entrance in split screen as commercials play is an interesting choice.

PEN15v2
10-23-2019, 11:54 PM
Not the best Dynamite. Honestly, might be the worst so far. None of the matches were to my liking, and other than the brawl, there wasn't much I would recommend to anyone to catch up on.

Cult Icon
10-24-2019, 12:01 AM
I thought it was easily the best episode they've done yet. The opener was unbelievable for someone like me, the other two tag matches were really strong, Omega vs. Janela was completely different from their great AEW Dark match and yet still really good, the main event was a really good match with an ending that worked (at least for me) and the Cody-Jericho angle was outstanding. The only weak parts were Britt Baker (again) and that weird angle with Brandi that I still don't understand. But other than that I felt it was an incredible episode, maybe even one of the best episodes of a wrestling TV show I've ever seen. My friend and I were on the phone for about 45 minutes during a stretch of the show and we couldn't stop marking out, we couldn't believe how great it was.

Kleckamania
10-24-2019, 06:44 AM
I thought the porridge was just right.

It wasnt the worst.
It wasnt the best.
Britt Baker must have amazing skills I'm missing. Maybe cause I'm not her boss?
Opening match was real good. SCU match was match of the night for me, though Omega and Jannelly was fun. Pac and Moxley was good. I thought the Jericho/Inner Circle/Cody bit went on a bit too long, but it was a good segment. I loved Orange Cassidy. That boy has some huge value/potential with that gimmick- they really need to put him on 3 out of 4 shows a month. I'd say even weekly if they keep his segments fairly brief. Fans will love/eat it up. It wasn't a great episode, but it was a good one. And for a newer fan to pro wrestling that would have been a very enjoyable watch. So I think they did exactly what they needed to. They're still gonna lose ratings, partially because NBA season tipped off last night, but they won't lose much. Maybe 100k.

Prime Time
10-24-2019, 07:25 AM
Definitely seems to be a divide out there from what I'm seeing - there's a big part of their crowd who think the show is going from strength to strength and are very vocal about that. But it seems that the people who are less in the hardcore and have 'given them a chance' are skewing more towards the show is getting worse.

Going to be interesting to see if AEW can ever serve those two masters simultaneously.

PEN15v2
10-24-2019, 08:24 AM
Which stems from an issue addressed in the summer, which is that AEW caters to a core audience alone. Nothing wrong with that, and it's currently not hurting them. But catering to a particular genre of fan, who are known for being fickle, is very dangerous. I predict AEW will change things at some point, but if they continue this way I suspect they'll see evidence of their limits it in the numbers.

This isn't to say AEW is bad, or Dynamite was bad. But it's forgettable like most WWE weekly TV.

Powder
10-24-2019, 09:03 AM
I think AEW is catering to the audience that is sick of the WWE machine. AEW constantly make references to that. For instance, last night when Cody was trying to give an interview, and the Inner Circle was in their luxury box, Cody said, (and I'm paraphrasing here) "That this isn’t like the company they both came from, and there isn’t an invisible wall here, and I can easily step through the ropes and settle things right now."

AEW is catering to the fans that are tired of the WWE's idea of what professional wrestling is. At times the WWE insults the audience and not in a heel's promo type of way, where the WWE expects us to forget about wins and losses, story lines, and flip/flops of personalities, and much of the programming aimed at kids, all of the standard WWE nonsense. All of that is good for the WWE and it obviously works, but AEW is catering to a smaller fanbase, but much of these wrestlers are now getting their first dose of national exposure and this was only show 4, and it keeps getting better, and the fanbase will grow. you cannot make a huge promotion in a month, but fans will find it, and it will get bigger. AEW may never be the monster that the WWE is, but it does not have to be. It has to be an alternative where there are options.

I can truly only speak for me. And I have been a fan of wrestling for a long time. I was in my 20s when WCW boomed and it was so much fun to be a wrestling fan back then because of the competition. I believe that given time AEW will build up a big enough fanbase that will make Vince really take notice and change some things up. One of the ways that AEW can do this is to eventually ask to be moved to Monday nights and take on RAW like WCW did with Nitro. If AEW keeps making strides and eventually moves to Mondays, then it will truly be game on. AEW beating the niche audience of NXT fans is good for now, but beating RAW on a weekly basis will be a true test. When Nitro was beating RAW for almost 2 years, is when Vince finally said I need to do something different. I do not think that Vince is worrying that AEW is beating his developmental 3rd brand, but if/when AEW makes a day change and starts beating RAW, that is when things will happen.

So far in my opinion, AEW won the night for the 4th straight week. BUT the 4 stars of the night go to 1. Keith Lee once again, 2. The Lucha Bros, man are they fun, and 3. Rhea Ripley again. This girl I can see being another mega star, and she is only 23!.

Prime Time
10-24-2019, 09:10 AM
Eh, I think it's fair to say that they are catering for some fans who are sick of the WWE machine, but not others. It's not like there's a uniform opinion out there and you do come across people who've wanted to buy into what AEW are doing because of their distance from WWE, but have been disappointed.

Powder
10-24-2019, 09:15 AM
Besides Pen, I have not personally heard of people who are disappointed in what AEW is doing right now. And Pen is not disappointed, it is just not his cup of tea. He prefers what WWE puts on the table.

AEW has a strong product, and it is much better than I thought is was going to be. They have a clear direction where every match is tied to a story and you know why. Every segment, the announcers sell what and why, unlike the WWE where they sell merch.

Prime Time
10-24-2019, 09:19 AM
Maybe you haven't, but being more interested in what's happening out there and how it's going than in the shows themselves, I've gone out looking to see what the opinions are far beyond the people I know in real life or the people I follow on Twitter, to get out of my own echo chamber, and trust me, there's a wide range of responses out there - whether you've heard them or not. And a good number of them ain't positive.

And y'know, as someone who still broadly likes some of what WWE is doing, he isn't the sort of fan I'm talking about. There is a subsection of fans out there who were long-distanced from WWE and wanted to buy into the 'sports presentation' of AEW that watched, and are already writing it off as not what they were promised.

Powder
10-24-2019, 09:28 AM
Fair enough. I am not on twitter, nor much of social media, but I will take you at your word.

Prime Time
10-24-2019, 09:47 AM
I'm pleased you give me enough credit to grant that I'm not just making shit up for a discussion on a net message board!

Nah, as I say, there's a bit of a divide out there. The people who are into it are hugely into it (that much is clear and indisputable) but there are all sorts of groups of fans out there who aren't, and that's what makes it tricky going forward.

Powder
10-24-2019, 09:58 AM
Isn't that we all strive for? Credibility on message boards....lol

But you could argue that there is a divide among any new show or movie. Take the new movie The Joker. If you read my review on the DCEU page, you will see that I thought it was complete shit, and other who thought it was the second coming of Citizen Kane. Also look at Batwoman. It is the latest in the Arrowverse, and so far I think it is good, but there are those out there who do not.

So just because there are people who range from loving AEW, to saying it is just ok, to disliking it, to man this is the worst thing ever does not mean that it is not succeeding. I for one think it is succeeding, and will continue to grow and get better, and there are those who will oppose that and think it will fail. AND we live in the social media time where voices and opinions are constantly said and posted for millions to hear.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWdd6_ZxX8c

Prime Time
10-24-2019, 10:03 AM
So just because there are people who range from loving AEW, to saying it is just ok, to disliking it, to man this is the worst thing ever does not mean that it is not succeeding.

To be honest, I never said that it was or wasn't. All I said was that there are a lot of people fed up with WWE who don't like what AEW are doing either.

In my opinion, unless AEW's ratings rise or fall dramatically from where they are at, no one is going to know if they are succeeding for a long while yet. Saying one way or the other doesn't mean anything more or less than 'I like it' or 'I don't like it' until there's more to go on. This is still really early, far too early to draw any sensible conclusions.

As I say, the question becomes interesting - and tricky - if they do end up having to change things up. But that, too, is down the line, if it happens at all.

Powder
10-24-2019, 10:08 AM
Totally agree.

And that is why I said, that if AEW's ratings continue to stay the same at least, but hopefully improve, they should ask to move to Monday nights to take on the RAW Juggernaut like WCW did. If AEW can pull the RAW viewers away to their product, that will mean much more than beating the 3rd brand.

But that is way down the line, or at least a year away.

PEN15v2
10-24-2019, 10:57 AM
Why go to Monday? If AEW on Wednesday ratings reach above Raw or SD, they don't need to be on the same night to say they've beaten WWE.

Team Farrell
10-24-2019, 11:02 AM
I thought it was easily the best episode they've done yet. The opener was unbelievable for someone like me, the other two tag matches were really strong, Omega vs. Janela was completely different from their great AEW Dark match and yet still really good, the main event was a really good match with an ending that worked (at least for me) and the Cody-Jericho angle was outstanding. The only weak parts were Britt Baker (again) and that weird angle with Brandi that I still don't understand. But other than that I felt it was an incredible episode, maybe even one of the best episodes of a wrestling TV show I've ever seen. My friend and I were on the phone for about 45 minutes during a stretch of the show and we couldn't stop marking out, we couldn't believe how great it was.
See, I couldn't disagree with you more. This week's show took AEW from being something that I watched every week to me saying "I gave it a month, I'll catch it if/when I can".

All the matches feel the same, man. The number of cutters, leaping enziguris, and I'm sure more that I saw repeated from match-to-match in just the first half was quite a bit. Enough that it stood out. LB and PP did backstabber double team spots within two minutes of one another. The problem with hiring all the guys you think are really good and you work indies with, is that everyone is influencing one another and everyone does the same shit.

PAC's 450 to the floor would have been a lot bigger to me if I hadn't seen at least one (though maybe two) others on the show plus at least one shooting star in an opener that was a lot higher flying. That 450 is insane, and the more that I think about it the more I realize that, because there is no margin for error, you have about 36 inches of height to work with so that bodily control is just nuts. But at the time, I was like "cool".

For a company with legends as "agents", it feels like nobody is watching the rest of the card and trying to tell people not to constantly repeat things.

The women's match was the best women's match that they've put on, I think. Britt is still green, some of her stuff doesn't have a lot of oomph on it, but I still think she's the best woman on their roster to draw attention from people outside the AEW bubble. That said, let's talk about that other girl (sorry, I didn't catch her name) for a second. She might be the best all around women's wrestler on their roster right now. She at least kept me more engaged than anyone else I've seen them put on TV. More of her please!

It was actually a dichotomy that I noticed with NXT. I watched the first 40 minutes or so when AEW was over, and the difference in their women's division is staggering. Rhea and Bianca look like full grown, adult athletes. I can tell, based on small things that they do that you don't see many of the girls in AEW do, that their level of training and polish is a lot higher. I'm wondering if AEW is doing any training and feedback, but I have this fear that because it's buddies working with buddies, that everyone is getting the "hugs and 'good match'" treatment there without feedback on the little things that make you look like a polished star.

The angle with Cody and Jericho was off the charts great. Kudos to the announcers for pointing out Hagar not being there and why. I was shocked to have enjoyed a Joey Janela match.

But then...that main event. The match itself, put on by the two guys, was great. Near perfect for what they were trying to do with it. Upcoming wrestlers need to watch Mox's selling clinic. But then we get to the finish. That finish makes me feel like Cody has Dusty's playbook, but doesn't quite know how to run the plays yet.

I feel (and I know you'll hate me for saying it) that they need a Cornette or maybe a Bischoff, someone with more experience laying out a television show. Not to book, not to be their creative person, but to lay out and time out their TV show.

That angle they ran at the end needs to end with 5-4-3-2-1, bell rings, JR is shouting that they're out of time, tune in next week, tickets available at aewwrestling.com, and they're out in 10 seconds. You can still do the DDT and angry Mox, but throw it online (Facebook/Twitter live maybe) since your audience is going to be there and likely going to be discussing things after the show anyway.

But they stayed on the air for a full minute after the match ended (I know this because I watched afterward online). If I'm Mox today, I'm livid. You ended my match, impacted my record, when I had the guy down and could have hit something else to win the match, but then "TV time" didn't end for another full minute?

It's small, minute details like that that make the show seem somewhat unpolished and unprofessional.

I'm not saying "fuck this company, this was a terrible show and I'm never watching again", but between small things like that that irk me, and the fact that so many of the matches feature so much of the same stuff that it all feels like the same, it just doesn't feel "must see" to me. It'll probably wind up like WWE is for me, in that I'll catch it when/if I catch it.

Powder
10-24-2019, 11:07 AM
Why go to Monday? If AEW on Wednesday ratings reach above Raw or SD, they don't need to be on the same night to say they've beaten WWE.

Because of History. If the WWE's flagship show is RAW and on Mondays, and AEW is on Wednesdays, they are not directly competing with each other. They will in terms of talent leaving one company for the other, but not for ratings or audience.

Why would Vince or Cody feel the need to evolve if there is no direct competition? They wouldn't. Vince needed to change his product in the late 90s because WCW was a direct threat, beating them in ratings on the same night and same time slot.

Different nights means no competition. NBC does not care about ESPN's ratings for MNF for their SNF because they are not competing with each other.

And beating NXT is no where near the same thing as beating RAW.

Team Farrell
10-24-2019, 11:19 AM
Why would Vince or Cody feel the need to evolve if there is no direct competition? They wouldn't. Vince needed to change his product in the late 90s because WCW was a direct threat, beating them in ratings on the same night and same time slot.
No, Vince had to change his product as a last ditch effort to stave off bankruptcy. People stopped coming to their shows and buying their In Your House events. Some of that had to do with still feeling the losses from the bad publicity of the steroid trial two years or so before. They stopped making money.

It had little to nothing to do with ratings on Mondays and pride in losing to WCW. USA wasn't about to drop the show. It was because he was literally about to lose his company and was willing to try anything.

Powder
10-24-2019, 11:26 AM
That definitely had a lot of influence over the changes, but Vince went to the AE, with SCSA, DX and all of the adult themed programming in order to combat Nitro, and win an audience back. Hence the name of the Monday Night Wars. They were in battle with each other for the same audience.

USA may not have been dropping the show, but sponsors would have left if ratings were not going back up. Ratings generate money. Losing viewers consistently will not bring back viewers or sponsors.

But Vince was losing ratings 2-3 years after the trial. The trial was in 1994 a full 2-3 years before WCW was a threat. Once the nWo came and began beating RAW is when Vince needed to change.

If Vince was going bankrupt, or knew he was having financial difficulties in 1994-1996, then why did he not change things in order to generate money? He only decided to change once WCW was a threat. And luckily for him he did, because he got the biggest boom in wrestling because of it, and lucking into SCSA, The Rock and DX.

Prime Time
10-24-2019, 11:36 AM
The difference between then and now is that WWE could presumably lose the ratings battle every week and still stay profitable from all their other sources of income. It's a whole new world now, and the WWE is a very different company. I'm not sure there's much reason to believe history would play out the same way again.

Powder
10-24-2019, 11:45 AM
But would the American sponsors continue to pay through the nose for a product that is losing? I am not so sure.

Vince can still make millions through China, Saudi Arabia and other countries, but I cannot see American Sponsors staying with a show that loses ratings and viewers, and if there are no more sponsors, no more product. This is one of the reasons for the switch to PG and after the Benoit scandal. Sponsors wanted change, and they got it, other wise they would have left and Vince would have lost millions.

Sponsors drive the shows. In the 90s sponsors flocked to the WWE with ratings over 5 consistently. If RAW drops too much lower, I can see sponsors pulling out.

But if AEW can force changes and ratings rise (for both shows), sponsors will come flying back and/or new ones will take their place.

But shows get cancelled due to lack of ratings and sponsors not wanting to pay for a dying show.

LK3185
10-24-2019, 11:48 AM
The only way WWE really alters their approach is if either Fox or Saudi arabia money dries up. They could have the worst creative iin history and if Fox is happy, then it doesn't matter.

Thought AEW was a really good show last night. My issue isn't the wrestling really but besides Cody's segments, i'm not getting the character moments i would like..it leaves me a little cold. Pac did this great promo while bloody about his match with Mox.. it wasn't on TV though. little things like that.

Prime Time
10-24-2019, 11:56 AM
Well, it depends on how much AEW going to Monday night would hurt them, obviously. Right now the impact it would have, WWE would still be a more attractive option than most other shows out there because - as bad as it's been going within the industry itself - wrestling has been fairly immune to a lot of the changes that have hurt other shows. Maybe that's because the damage was done by the time that came around, or maybe it's because there's something about wrestling that means it behaves differently to other shows. Maybe it's both, or neither. Whatever it is, I've read a few things where it's seen as a fairly safe bet. That's absolutely not the way things were in the 1990s, when even though the audience for wrestling was bigger, there were all kinds of other popular programmes that you could sponsor instead.

Of course, if you want to speculate on what AEW could do in a year as being a lot bigger than now, then the equation changes - but to be honest, we're into fantasy land then and it's all a bit pointless.

Powder
10-24-2019, 12:07 PM
Again I completely agree. My point was simple. If AEW wants to truly challenge the WWE for wrestling dominance, then they need to be on the same night and at the same time. Different nights do no lend itself to competition.

Right now, only 4 weeks in AEW has done a lot to establish itself as an entity, but it is still in its infancy. A year is a long time in the wrestling world, and IF, and a huge IF AEW can keeps its ratings and improve its ratings then I would want them to ask to move to Mondays to directly challenge the WWE. That is when we will see if AEW is for real, or just another wrestling program that the WWE isn't concerned with because they pose no threat.

Cult Icon
10-24-2019, 12:07 PM
AEW is never, I repeat, never moving to Monday night. You guys have to remember that Tony Khan is still part of the Jacksonville Jaguars front office and that they, and the rest of the NFL, have games on Monday night throughout the season. I don't know if this is just Tony and his father's decision or if the NFL has made a deal with them, but they've made it clear they won't go on Monday and compete with Monday night football games. So that's off the table. Pretty much every night but Wednesday is off the table because Tuesday TNT has NBA games (which promoted AEW heavily this past week by the way), Thursday TNT has NBA games and Friday Smackdown is on Fox. Maybe if AEW thinks they can eventually beat Fox they'll make that move but I think they know better than to try that. They're staying on Wednesday's.

LK3185
10-24-2019, 12:22 PM
Whatever one might think about the product, AEW has been pretty smart business wise so far. They're not breaking the bank to sign big names for a short gain, they see how rabid their base is and yet don't run a bunch of shows. I can't see Tony Khan making a rash decision like go to Monday (even if Football was not in the equation)

Powder
10-24-2019, 12:30 PM
Whatever one might think about the product, AEW has been pretty smart business wise so far. They're not breaking the bank to sign big names for a short gain, they see how rabid their base is and yet don't run a bunch of shows. I can't see Tony Khan making a rash decision like go to Monday (even if Football was not in the equation)

This theory will be tested heavily in 2020.

Major WWE contract expiration dates:

Luke Harper May 2020
The Revival April 2020
Randy Orton Summer 2020
Brock Lesnar April or May 2020
Rey Mysterio October 2020
And Mandy Rose late 2020

I can't see AEW signing Lesnar as he gets whatever he wants from the WWE, AND there is no one on the AEW roster that I would want to see face Lesnar, except Kenny Omega. Maybe if they built Jake Hagar up, but we know that they would have Hagar win to say that AEW > WWE.

Can you just imagine the Revival in AEW. No flips, just fists vs every other tag team? Wow.

PEN15v2
10-24-2019, 01:00 PM
Because of History. If the WWE's flagship show is RAW and on Mondays, and AEW is on Wednesdays, they are not directly competing with each other. They will in terms of talent leaving one company for the other, but not for ratings or audience.

Why would Vince or Cody feel the need to evolve if there is no direct competition? They wouldn't. Vince needed to change his product in the late 90s because WCW was a direct threat, beating them in ratings on the same night and same time slot.

Different nights means no competition. NBC does not care about ESPN's ratings for MNF for their SNF because they are not competing with each other.

And beating NXT is no where near the same thing as beating RAW.

I feel like you didn't really understand what I was saying. I didn't indicate Dynamite has to beat NXT. I said if ratings are 3.5 on Wednesday for Dynamtie, and Raw is 2.3 on Mondays, then AEW already beats them. And by moving to Monday (pretending the NFL stuff wasn't an issue), both shows would likely drop and eat into each others numbers. There's no benefit to moving to a different night.

As for forcing WWE to change, it can equally be done if AEW beats them on a different night. You're quite mistaken if you think Vince/WWE wouldn't care if AEW got better ratings on Wednesdays than Raw gets on Mondays.


Of course, if you want to speculate on what AEW could do in a year as being a lot bigger than now, then the equation changes - but to be honest, we're into fantasy land then and it's all a bit pointless.

It's why I don't get into a lot of these talks. So much of it is pointless. I know smart fans love to talk backstage stuff, and I have partook in some of that.... but I've grown so tired of discussing things we honestly have no real knowledge of. I just want to watch a show, and share my thoughts on what I saw. I don't care about who is in charge of what segment... I don't give a shit. I just want to watch and enjoy, or not enjoy and I'll stop watching.

Prime Time
10-24-2019, 04:51 PM
From the main page



AEW Dynamite has topped WWE NXT in viewership for the fourth week in a row, but the show dipped under 1 million viewers for the first time.

Wednesday’s Dynamite episode on TNT drew 963,000 viewers while NXT drew 698,000 viewers on the USA Network, according to Showbuzz Daily.

These are the lowest audiences for both AEW and NXT.

AEW ranked #4 in the Cable Top 150, while NXT ranked #21. AEW ranked #24 in viewership, while NXT ranked #33 in viewership.

Last week’s Dynamite episode drew 1.014 million viewers and ranked #5 in the Cable Top 150, and #25 in viewership. Last week’s NXT episode drew 712,000 viewers and ranked #30 in the Cable Top 150, and #35 in viewership.

AEW drew a 0.45 rating in the 18-49 demographic while NXT drew a 0.21 in the same demo. Last week’s AEW episode drew a 0.44 in that demographic while NXT drew a 0.20.

The NBA game on ESPN between the Celtics and the 76ers topped the night in the 18-49 demographic at #1 with a 0.76 rating, but just 1.698 million viewers. Hannity on the Fox News Channel topped the night on cable in viewership with 3.261 million viewers, but ranked #16 on the Cable Top 150 with a 0.23 rating in the 18-49 demographic.

MLB World Series coverage on FOX at 8pm topped the night in viewership on network TV with 11.925 million viewers. The World Series game on FOX also topped the night on network TV in the 18-49 demographic with a 2.9 rating.

To compare, Monday’s post-Draft edition of WWE RAW on the USA Network drew an average of 2.342 million viewers, up from last week’s 2.287 million viewers for the Draft episode. RAW was #5 in the 18-49 demographic on the Cable Top 150 this week, for the third week in a row, with a 0.75 rating. Tuesday’s WWE Total Divas episode drew 279,000 viewers on the E! network, down from last week’s 281,000 viewers. Total Divas ranked #70 on the Cable Top 150 18-49 demographic list with a 0.12 rating in that demo.

Kleckamania
10-31-2019, 09:14 AM
Last night was their best episode to date in my opinion. Some outstanding heel work by Sammy Guevara and Santana & Ortiz. Good wrestling. Best women's match to date. Felt like I was watching good 98 Nitro.


Edit: Orange Cassidy is fucking awesome

Powder
10-31-2019, 09:19 AM
The only point that dragged was the loooong limo ride with Cody and Tony. That segment definitely should have been shorter.

And the contract signing. They made too much of a point to not be WWE's typical contract signings that it took away from the segment.

But the rest was great. And I am completely shocked that the Lucha Bros did not win the Tag Belts.

Moxley's promo was one of the best promos we have heard this year.

I also liked that the segment with Hager, echoed what happened with his MMA fight from last week. He kneed Dustin in the groin, just like how his fight was stopped for the same reason.

For me, I am really liking AEW over the WWE. I still watch all 3 shows that the WWE put out, but I like that AEW is different, and trying to be different. I just hope that they stop taking shots at the WWE and just concentrate on their own product.

Kleckamania
10-31-2019, 09:56 AM
The limo ride was superfluous for sure. And something rubbed me the wrong way with the video package for Brandi Rhodes. Ive heard she is one of the worst females in the division, so the push just reeks of the boss thinking with his dick honestly. Otherwise the show was a great watch.

Oliver
10-31-2019, 09:57 AM
Edit: Orange Cassidy is fucking awesome

Kleck, welcome aboard the Orange Cassidy For AEW Champion train. Take a seat, we have a trolley service today offering teas, coffees, and soft drinks, plus a range of sandwiches, rolls, and paninis which can be purchased in a meal deal with a drink and a snack for £4.50.

Powder
10-31-2019, 10:00 AM
100% totally agree. Brandi should be Cody's valet/manager, and get physical when needed, but not an active wrestler.

Powder
10-31-2019, 10:27 AM
Kleck, welcome aboard the Orange Cassidy For AEW Champion train. Take a seat, we have a trolley service today offering teas, coffees, and soft drinks, plus a range of sandwiches, rolls, and paninis which can be purchased in a meal deal with a drink and a snack for £4.50.

Won't his shtick get old fast?

I googled him to watch some matches to find out who he is, and it is the same thing over and over again. Aloof entrance, hands in pocket, bored kick, bored kick, pushed down by opponent, kip up with hands still in pocket. Then a real kick and a plancha/suicide dive through the ropes with hand still in pocket. Then he wrestles for real. All impressive and athletic, ans while he is fun, and entertaining, this can get old quick.

Cult Icon
10-31-2019, 10:31 AM
It won't get old quick because he's not only a supremely charismatic guy but he's a hell of a wrestler. I think that's pretty apparent given all the things he can do with his hands in his pocket; you need a whole lot of talent to do that and Orange has immense talent. So if this act does ever get stale (and I don't see it happening any time quick; he's been doing this gimmick for years and the reactions are just getting louder these days) he can always change it up. He has the charisma and ability to tweak the gimmick to freshen it up while still being over.

Show was great other than the second limo segment that dragged on and on and on and on and on and on and IT'S STILL GOING ISN'T IT?! I guess the Brandi thing too but only because I still have no idea where it's going besides it involving Awesome Kong (who apparently people missed in the video) destroying people for Brandi. Otherwise great show, largely thanks to Jack Evans. But that's not surprising because I've pretty much considered every show to be a winner at this point.

Powder
10-31-2019, 10:37 AM
But hasn't this gimmick been on the indies without national exposure? The indies can be compared to the old territories, so when a guy got stale, they shipped him off to another territory to feud with new people.

But now with National exposure on AEW, but he will not be on TV every week, fans always want to see more or evolving talent. Maybe in a few months he drops the aloof/hung over type of behavior and just wrestles, but if not, I can see the gimmick getting old. I mean how many times can we see the bored kick routine? But for now, ride the wave, and get what you can out of him.

Team Farrell
10-31-2019, 10:43 AM
I think that's pretty apparent given all the things he can do with his hands in his pocket; you need a whole lot of talent to do that and Orange has immense talent.

I don't want to shatter the whole illusion, but it's not "talent" so much as "practice". When my friends and I first stumbled across OC we started doing things with hands in our pockets during training to add some difficulty to what we were doing and with practice jumping and diving and all that stuff actually becomes quite easy.

I've only see up to the R&R attack. I'll probably skip right to the contract signing since I don't care for TH2 at all and pairing them with The Bucks sounds like a recipe for a match I'm not going to enjoy. I'll likely try to check out the main, too.

I will say that I liked Guavara's heel work quite a bit and Adam Page's everything. Santana & Ortiz jumping R&R was a great use of Ricky and Robert, too.


But hasn't this gimmick been on the indies without national exposure? The indies can be compared to the old territories, so when a guy got stale, they shipped him off to another territory to feud with new people.

But now with National exposure on AEW, but he will not be on TV every week, fans always want to see more or evolving talent. Maybe in a few months he drops the aloof/hung over type of behavior and just wrestles, but if not, I can see the gimmick getting old. I mean how many times can we see the bored kick routine? But for now, ride the wave, and get what you can out of him.

This will be the test, I suppose. I predict that it gets old quite quickly. I'm not sure if anywhere still reports the quarter hours but I will bet that six weeks from now, if they're putting OC in the ring the live crowd will pop due to the novelty and they types of fans that they are, but the quarter hour will take a substantial hit.

Powder
10-31-2019, 10:47 AM
The main event was fun. My 12 year old daughter who is as casual of a fan as you can get, saw what Rey Fenix can do, and her jaw dropped, and asked me to rewind.

Also watch Moxley's promo. Really good and it blurs the line really well.

Team Farrell
10-31-2019, 10:52 AM
Was that his promo from the top of the show where he was yelling at Khan?

Oliver
10-31-2019, 10:55 AM
Something I never expected to find myself saying, but - is Fenix actually better at this wrestling stuff than Pentagon?

Powder
10-31-2019, 10:59 AM
Was that his promo from the top of the show where he was yelling at Khan?

No, but yes. later in the show he cut an awesome promo where he said a lot of what he was saying to Khan, but on a live mic, and with more passion. Just watch it b/c there were shots at his former character(s) from WWE, and how he was not being true to who he is, etc. All in all it was a really good heated promo, and still one of the best promos, possibly the best promo cut this year.

But AEW should not have shown the Kahn stuff early in the show b/c of Moxley's promo later. It did repeat some of the stuff, but it does not really matter.

Kleckamania
10-31-2019, 11:27 AM
I honestly think Orange's segments will be the highest rated. I'd go as far as to say he could sit on a toilet for 20 minutes and it would be the highest rated 20 minutes of the show, the guy has that IT factor big time. He is dripping with IT factor. I've seen him twice and Im waaaaay on board. Give this guy a world title and more tv time! The only problem is he is so awesome that anyone else sharing his segment, match, or spotlight gets eclipsed completely. Like I forget anyone else is there because he is so wildly entertaining.

Cult Icon
10-31-2019, 11:31 AM
The only one who can hang with him is Jack Evans. But that's because Jack Evans is the greatest man to ever live. Hard to compete with that.

Oliver
10-31-2019, 11:35 AM
Jack Evans is only rivalled by LA Park, who could out draw AEW whilst wrestling a broken broom for two hours.

You know it Cult! I know you know it, and I know you are your fellow AEW fans are running in fear of the pull of Park!

Cult Icon
10-31-2019, 11:57 AM
Come on Ollie; I more than anyone knows that LA Park could outdraw AEW with the snap of his finger. Hell he's going to do it in a month when he and El Mega Campeon de Triple A Kenny Omega sell out a 22K baseball stadium in Monterrey. That's right; that is a thing that is happening and Park will be there fighting Blue Demon Jr. (and maybe even Rush, who is rumored for AAA) while Kenny defends the title. Can't wait!

But yes, only Jack comes close to LA Park. Angelico too. Those are my guys and I was thrilled to see them kill it last night.

Team Farrell
10-31-2019, 12:13 PM
Hell he's going to do it in a month when he and El Mega Campeon de Triple A Kenny Omega sell out a 22K baseball stadium in Monterrey.

I saw that pop up on my timeline the other day. That's pretty awesome. Odd timing for a stadium show, though, isn't it? When I was there last December is was dropping to like 50 at night and nobody could stop bitching about how cold it was.

Powder
10-31-2019, 12:14 PM
Doing a simple google search to where Monterry is, it look South enough that the weather can remain in the 60s or higher.

Besides, according to Cult, LA Park's is so good that he will generate enough heat to keep the fans warm.

Cult Icon
10-31-2019, 12:22 PM
The dirty little secret that's been lost in this admittedly crazy year of wrestling is that AAA is pretty much the hottest they've been in years. If I were to vote for the Best Promotion of the year right now they'd win EASILY; they've consistently had the best shows, they have a legitimate top drawing ace (Psycho Clown), their biggest show of the year was incredible (Triplemania XXVII), they've made stars out of young/fresh guys like Laredo Kid, Hijo del Vikingo, Taurus, Octagon Jr. (also known as Golden Magic), they've gotten a lot of exposure to US fans due to the presence of the AEW guys, Tessa Blanchard and Cain Velasquez and they had a really successful, sold out show in New York despite everything working against them. The buzz has increased so much since last year when they were legitimately the worst promotion in the world and that, coupled with Konnan and Dorian Roldan being ambitious dudes, is why they're deciding to shoot this shot. And they're probably going to succeed. The buzz is there, the show quality is there, they for sure have Omega, Blue Demon Jr. (who had easily the most famous match in Mexico this year and arguably one of the most famous matches in wrestling period this year) and LA Park (the biggest draw in Mexico) and they're probably going to have Rush (albeit for a run in) and yes, Cain Velasquez. He still has one date on his AAA deal (he signed for three matches) and he has stated he intends to work it. This will be the place and that will help them significantly, which is odd because he hasn't moved the needle for WWE's hispanic audience at all from what I've gathered.

All this is a long way of saying the weather won't matter. AAA is hot, they're treating this as a big show, they have big stars and people will come.

Powder
10-31-2019, 12:26 PM
In all seriousness, how is LA Park, a 53 year old, the biggest draw in Mexico?

Oliver
10-31-2019, 12:30 PM
Because he's dope as shit, Powder.

Powder
10-31-2019, 12:33 PM
The last time, I saw him was as la Parka the chairman of WCW, 20 years ago.

PEN15v2
10-31-2019, 12:40 PM
Slurp slurp slurp

Orange Cassidy's very entertaining. But fans will get sick of it if this is all AEW shows him doing. AEW fans like to pretend they are better than other wrestling fans, but they are just as fickle and easily annoyed as any other wrestling fan.

And putting him in a prime position will be problematic as AEW is attempting to make themselves more legitimate. Much like WWE can balance R-Truth's goofiness since he's outside the serious angles and in a midcard role, Orange Cassidy will need to be treated the same way.

This isn't to say he can't evolve into a more serious performer at some point. Nor does it mean he even has to change. Watching Omega/Bucks wrestle, you can see that being legit and athletic is complete clownshit.

Best match of the show was Page vs Guevara, which was an average match. I really really really don't see what was so special about this show.

Cult Icon
10-31-2019, 12:43 PM
Lucha Libre is an entirely different beast than North American wrestling. For one, the mask (and even a luchadores hair) is more meaningful than titles, which is why the titles are generally meaningless there (although the plan is to make the Mega Championship mean something in AAA with Omega holding it and defending it between AEW and AAA). Second, despite the reputation lucha has for being full of high flying and risk taking, it's actually SAFER than most styles and guys are thus able to have exceptionally long careers at a high level. LA Park is just one of many; Blue Demon Jr. is 53 and still going strong (at least for him; he's always been more average than great), Dr. Wagner Jr. is 54 and still tremendous and over in CMLL you've got Negro Casas and Blue Panther at 59 years old who are not only still incredibly over but are better than a third of the AEW/WWE rosters put together. And that's just a few names. It's all because they all still have incredible charisma and, because the lucha style is safer because they don't take major bumps (they roll instead of bumping) they're still good in the ring. This is partially the secret to Rey's longevity as well now that he's gotten over the leg injuries.

LA Park is basically the apex of all that. He's one of the most charismatic wrestlers of all time. He's still, in my opinion, excellent in the ring despite now being overweight, mainly because his body is still overall in good shape, he's still athletic AND because he adapted from being strictly a high flyer to a guy who can fly but now relies heavily on brawling. He has US crossover appeal because many fans remember him fondly as La Parka from WCW (which is why he's headlining MLW's first PPV this Saturday night). He's been a consistent draw in Mexico ever since he left WCW, only no one was paying attention to lucha libre from 2001 to 2014 so they missed his high drawing feuds with Wagner, El Mesias (Mil Muertes of LU fame) and the replacement La Parka AAA created when Park left for WCW. And most importantly he's unpredictable, out of control, fiercely protective of his character to fault (his bad experiences with WCW and AAA led to this) and gives you the feeling that anything could happen. He's gotten into fights with fans (that attacked him first), he's had matches end in double DQ's where he and his opponent then just keep fighting to quell riots and last year he (along with Pentagon and Fenix) simultaneously worked CMLL and AAA. And on top of all that he's had a feud with the current Ring of Honor Champion Rush (a former CMLL star) for years that has produced legendary brawls that have led to it being the most anticipated mask vs. hair match in Mexico.

That's why, even at 53, he's the man in Mexico. He goes where he pleases, he leaves havoc in his wake and he does it all while still being as electric a performer as he was 20 years ago. Konnan once put it for me best; "LA Park may be a dick and is difficult to work with but at the end of the day HE'S FUCKING LA PARK!" When one of the three biggest draws in the history of Mexico is telling you that, despite the fact that he and Park HATE each other, you take it seriously.

mizfan
10-31-2019, 12:45 PM
The Tony/Cody segment in the limo was one of my favorite things on the show. Put me in mind of Okerlund and Flair riding to the arena before the Vader match at Starrcade '93.


Something I never expected to find myself saying, but - is Fenix actually better at this wrestling stuff than Pentagon?

He's absolutely more athletically gifted, and the Lucha Bros have become an all athletics all the time team, so for what going for right now Fenix is much better. I want my gritty Pentagon back. :(

Oliver
10-31-2019, 12:55 PM
I find watching Pentagon in a well lit arena to be weird when I came to love him performing in a grubby industrial unit for LU.

Cult, you mention a Rush run in on this AAA show - any chance we get that Rush/Park apuestas match in AAA? They never did it, did they?

Team Farrell
10-31-2019, 12:55 PM
It's all because they all still have incredible charisma and, because the lucha style is safer because they don't take major bumps (they roll instead of bumping) they're still good in the ring.

This is what jumped out to me the most. Fat dudes in their mid 50s who have been wrestling for 30 years in the ring keeping up with young dudes in training and moving around better (both in the ring and outside) than guys here in their 40s do.

It's a really cool style to try and learn from people who know what they're doing.

Even the big dives end in a roll. There were a couple Mexicans that came in about six months or so ago and it was really cool to watch them do their thing...then watch the local "vet" try and critique it to them...

Cult Icon
10-31-2019, 12:57 PM
All this lucha talk brings a smile to my face. There needs to be more of this in the AAA and CMLL threads besides me and mizfan being delightfully awesome.

Fenix has ALWAYS been the better pure worker. He's just more athletically gifted and innovative. Pentagon's advantage over him is that he's a better promo, a better character and is a tremendous brawler and glue guy. That's why he doesn't stand out as much in the tags; he does the little things while Fenix does the "THAT'S GOING TO PISS PEN OFF!" things. It's why they work so well together and why they are *Justin Roberts voice* El Tag Team Campeons de Triple A!


Cult, you mention a Rush run in on this AAA show - any chance we get that Rush/Park apuestas match in AAA? They never did it, did they?

I have no inside information on this Ollie...but if I were a betting man I would say it's very likely Rush vs. LA Park, hair vs. mask, headlines Triplemania XXVIII this upcoming August. CMLL did in fact never get around to it for a myriad of reasons, ones that will not effect AAA. They proved a few years ago when Dr. Wagner Jr. lost his mask that they will pay top dollar for a luchador to either drop the mask or get his hair cut (generally dropping your mask gets you a bigger payday but Rush's hair is so valuable that he could probably get paid $100K US to lose it, if that's what AAA wanted). And while Rush is with ROH (who is still partnered with ROH and New Japan), his contract has no limitations in Mexico, so he can work wherever. He will be in AAA sooner and later and because his ROH deal, from my understanding, isn't up till the end of 2020, there will be a window to do the match if for some reason Rush decides to go to WWE. I expect they will do Park vs. Rush at Triplemania and I wouldn't be shocked if it's in an even bigger stadium than the baseball one they're running in a month from now.

PEN15v2
10-31-2019, 12:59 PM
Jumping on the top rope, then to the 2nd rope, then back to the top rope, all while holding hands with his opponents?

Yeah, that's garbage.
Though not as bad as Omega snapping his fingers, and 3 guys fall face first. That might be the worst thing I've seen in wrestling since the Gooker.

Cult Icon
10-31-2019, 01:06 PM
I knew all this fun lucha libre talk was going too well. Take your old man yells at cloud shit to the No Flips Thread Pen!

PEN15v2
10-31-2019, 01:11 PM
I can handle silliness and fun. But when you have one segment involving your champion and challenger signing a contract for a match, and talking about how they are pros and taking this seriously and other self important hype, then LITERALLY the next segment is a comedy match with finger snapping pratfalls, and choreographed gymnast routines, and these are the people presented as the Elite of the company, and constant title challengers.... there's a major disconnect.

Cult Icon
10-31-2019, 01:22 PM
I'll tell Jack and Angelico next time they should stop doing the flips and just do them rest holds. Cause that's what the people want from the guy who flew off rooftops and Jack Evans; rest holds!

Also I had no idea Kenny even snapped his fingers when all three guys fell. I was too busy laughing at the Ric Flair homage and wondering where the hell this Kip Sabian had been in earlier matches. He was great!

Kleckamania
10-31-2019, 01:23 PM
Jumping on the top rope, then to the 2nd rope, then back to the top rope, all while holding hands with his opponents?

Yeah, that's garbage.
Though not as bad as Omega snapping his fingers, and 3 guys fall face first. That might be the worst thing I've seen in wrestling since the Gooker.

Yeah that Omega spot was shit for sure. That match in general didn't do much for me.

But as for Orange. This isn't just AEW fanboys gushing over him. He has that IT factor undeniably. He has tenfold the charisma of an R-Truth, and I find Truth very entertaining. And to make Orange viable? He gets pissed/actually cares about a match or angle, the hands come out and boom- he's a world title contender that easily. I spent a portion of the morning on Youtube, and social media looking for OC comments. Tons of people doing reaction videos watching him for the first time. All of them saying he is absolutely incredible. Social media- ppl unattached to AEW, or new to the scene in love with the guy instantly. Bottom line- some people have IT. He's one of them. He can make this angle credible and work. They just gotta pay close attention to the details.

Dynamite last night flowed and felt like a classic Nitro. Tips of the hat to Sammy and his heel work in the Hangman match, and Santana & Ortiz destroying the Rock-n-Roll Express. Show flowed flawlessly from segment to match to promo. It's really not that hard to see why people loved it. I tend to be a pretty jaded, old head these days, and I think any fan of pro wrestling should check out last nights show. Production, cohesiveness, flow, character building, good wrestling- they had it all. Sure there are a few weak spots or things you could point to and say weren't good, but you could do that with any wrestling show ever put on.

Prime Time
10-31-2019, 01:37 PM
But as for Orange. This isn't just AEW fanboys gushing over him. He has that IT factor undeniably. He has tenfold the charisma of an R-Truth, and I find Truth very entertaining. And to make Orange viable? He gets pissed/actually cares about a match or angle, the hands come out and boom- he's a world title contender that easily. I spent a portion of the morning on Youtube, and social media looking for OC comments. Tons of people doing reaction videos watching him for the first time. All of them saying he is absolutely incredible. Social media- ppl unattached to AEW, or new to the scene in love with the guy instantly. Bottom line- some people have IT. He's one of them. He can make this angle credible and work. They just gotta pay close attention to the details.


It isn't just AEW fanboys, no. But it's mostly that so far, and I've been doing some research myself. A good proportion of the people praising him that I've seen already have a reference to him, or to AEW, in their screen name - so they are clearly 'all in', if you'll excuse the pun. On the other hand, there's plenty of people out there who say that he's one of the reasons they can't get into it, or one of the only elements that they don't like - and while it's less, I've found plenty of evidence of that, too (although you'd expect it to be much less for reasons I've outlined elsewhere). It's clear to me that as things are currently constituted he's divisive, rather than someone who is nailed on for success with a more general audience. Now maybe if they switch it up and go more serious that'll change, but to be honest that's nothing more than a guess right now. Maybe there's this whole other audience for this kind of wrestling out there that no one has tapped into, though I tend to take the position that it's wishful thinking until they prove that they exist by.... y'know.... actually turning out.

I'll keep the full extent of my opinion to myself because I don't wanna start a row, but safe to say without a huuuuuge overhaul in his act I won't be rushing to watch him.

Cult Icon
10-31-2019, 01:58 PM
I'm shocked, SHOCKED! Well not that shocked.

Prime Time
10-31-2019, 02:03 PM
No, I don't suppose anyone will be. I do have the virtue of consistency!

Cult Icon
10-31-2019, 02:05 PM
That and your health! You are healthy right Prime?

Prime Time
10-31-2019, 02:07 PM
Pretty healthy, thanks for asking.

mizfan
10-31-2019, 02:09 PM
I still think it's mostly arbitrary (or at least subjective) where you draw the line in wrestling. Undertaker did the hand holding rope walking spot for decades and Flair comically flopped his way through his entire career, and both are all time greats. Some people see a world of difference between those things, others don't. To each their own.

Cult Icon
10-31-2019, 02:10 PM
Yeah but they didn't do flips so they're all good mizfan! Even Taker's dive was just him jumping right over the ropes. No flips! Thus he is good. Not as good as our lord and savoir Jack Evans but still good.

Prime Time
10-31-2019, 02:15 PM
I still think it's mostly arbitrary (or at least subjective) where you draw the line in wrestling. Undertaker did the hand holding rope walking spot for decades and Flair comically flopped his way through his entire career, and both are all time greats. Some people see a world of difference between those things, others don't. To each their own.

This is true, to a degree. I used to say that everybody has a line, though I guess it's probably more accurate to say most people have a line. But I suppose in much the same way that everyone gets to draw their own line, the more you push that line the more you've got to expect to deal with the push back. And that's it in a nutshell - there's a lot of people enjoying this, and a portion of the audience pushing back. I guess they know what they're doing and they have to know what the consequences will be, and they obviously think it's worth the risk. I guess in about a year we'll have an idea of whether they were right.

Cult Icon
10-31-2019, 02:18 PM
Why does there have to be a line? Seriously can someone answer me that question? Why does there have to be a line? I'd like to believe the only line I have is "this sucks, I'm not watching this" because beyond that I don't care about what style it is. If it's good, it's good. I think wrestling would be better if we viewed it that way instead of creating these lines where "there's not enough this, it sucks" or "there's too much of this, it sucks."

Prime Time
10-31-2019, 02:21 PM
That's not what the line is. It's not about style. The line is about baseline believability. If you don't care about that, then you can't get what I'm talking about, but I can't enjoy anything that takes me out of it. It's that simple.

Do your flips without shattering the illusion and I'll eat it up. Same with a brawl. It's not about style. But if you can't keep up the illusion which is what the art of wrestling was for most of it's history, this stuff turns to shit for me. I'd honestly rather stare at the wall.

Team Farrell
10-31-2019, 02:23 PM
Why does there have to be a line? Seriously can someone answer me that question? Why does there have to be a line? I'd like to believe the only line I have is "this sucks, I'm not watching this" because beyond that I don't care about what style it is. If it's good, it's good. I think wrestling would be better if we viewed it that way instead of creating these lines where "there's not enough this, it sucks" or "there's too much of this, it sucks."

It's not a hard line, but some peoples' threshold for "this is stupid, I don't want to watch this" or "I don't feel like I'm watching wrestling anymore" is different than other peoples'.

When I see a match that devolves into a synchro gymnastics routine with little to no logic, I find it stupid. When I see a guy with his hands in his pockets, I don't feel like I'm watching wrestling anymore.

It's not "He did 3.2 flips and I can only accept 3, so this match is terrible". It's a feeling of "I don't even feel like I'm watching two guys trying to win a fight anymore, this is dumb".

EDIT: I guess it's that, in my mind, wrestling can't just "be anything". It's not a "performance art" where you can do anything you want because it's "just wrestling" to me. I don't buy in to that, so when I see wrestling veering in that direction, I dislike it.

Prime Time
10-31-2019, 02:24 PM
^ Yeah, that's a better attempt at what I'm trying to say.

Cult Icon
10-31-2019, 02:33 PM
See but that's all it is Prime; it's an illusion. Like if I want to watch something based in reality there's a UFC show every weekend, there's at least two Bellator shows a month where Jake Hager knees a guy in the balls and there's a shit ton of sports to consume. I don't watch wrestling to necessarily see realism; I watch it because wrestling, like the movies, can be whatever the hell it wants to be. It can be a sluggest, it can be a spectacle, it can be realistic, it can be unrealistic, it can be Angelico flying off the roof, it can be Matanza grinding a man to paste against his prison cell bars; it can be anything. That's the art of wrestling to me. Like a great song, a great album, a great comic or a great movie it can mold itself into anything it needs to be and as such can be art. And I think if you were to just stick it into the realm of only what's believable then you're sapping a lot of the creativity that comes from a lot of very talented people. If wrestling can only work by being believable then Lucha Underground would've never existed, I would've never fallen in love with lucha libre and this conversation never happens. I would've given up on WWE in 2015 and I'd be gone from wrestling, probably trying to write movies and blogging about whatever dopey pop culture thing I was hung up on at the moment.

So while I definitely have no problem with wrestling being believable, it doesn't need to be to be great. It can be great by being anything. I truly believe that.

Prime Time
10-31-2019, 02:42 PM
See, I know all that, Cult. That much is clear. We obviously see it differently. But you asked me, and I answered. I truly believe it's not good wrestling once you've gone too far. There's a gap there between our positions that you're not going to bridge, but ultimately that's the reason there has to be a line. Most people won't watch once things cross their line or at least that's what the history of wrestling suggests.

Long story short, the illusion of a fight is essential for me, and once that's gone I think it - to use your word - sucks. So I'm actually not doing anything that you didn't say in the first post, but we have very different ideas of what sucks.

PEN15v2
10-31-2019, 02:47 PM
These guys nailed it.

It's no different with any form of entertainment. My favorite horror series involves a guy who was burned to death, but came back to kill the town's children in their dreams. It's completely impossible and illogical. But the movies created their own reality, and (mostly) stuck within it.

Right now, AEW is trying to create their universe and logic. And it's a very tough sell to say "we're more serious and real than the other guys" and then do this shit.

Kleckamania
10-31-2019, 04:23 PM
I actually agree with Prime, Pen, and Team Farrell in that it has to be believeable. I dont believe Riho could beat some larger house cats, let alone another adult human being because she has zero muscle mass, and is like 38 lbs. I don't believe in a real fight, 25+ minutes in some dude is gonna be able to pull off a Red Arrow, because slamming your body into someone elses for that long will make it hard to stand, let alone do flippy dos. I don't believe some jabroni is gonna flip someone using only his dong, but why isn't Orange Cassidy believeable? I mean if Bruce Lee fought with his hands in his pockets, he still would have kicked 90% of all human beings asses back when he was alive. Cassidy is touted as an incredibly talented wrestler without the gimmick, and is in tremendous physical shape, so why isn't it believeable that he could stick his hands in his pockets and beat some wrestlers? To me, it is entirely believeable. Granted, I don't think he is beating someone like Kenny Omega, or Jericho like that, but then all he has to do is take his hands out in those moments. Are you saying people without hands could never possibly win a fight? Ive known collegiate wrestlers without arms that had winning records.

I agree everyones line is different, but if material is presented intelligibly, and is possible to me, then I can get into it no problem.

Team Farrell
10-31-2019, 04:46 PM
See but that's all it is Prime; it's an illusion. Like if I want to watch something based in reality there's a UFC show every weekend, there's at least two Bellator shows a month where Jake Hager knees a guy in the balls and there's a shit ton of sports to consume.
I don't expect my wrestling to look like a UFC fight. But I need what I'm seeing to visually look like two people trying to win a fight, and I need the physical match-up to look like it's reasonable.

I get that it's not your jam, and I don't fault you for that, but for a lot of people it is.

I don't buy into the idea of promotions creating their own "universe". Lucha Underground wasn't a wrestling promotion, it was a television show based on professional wrestling. The audience might as well have been extras on a show. I'm willing to accept anything there. Do what you want. But AEW takes place in this universe that you and I live in. They are travelling the actual world going to actual arenas in front of actual people, not actors.

It's why I think that The Fiend's near invulnerability is dumb as shit, and why I think that I'll probably want to tear my hair out if I watch that six man from last night.


I don't believe some jabroni is gonna flip someone using only his dong, but why isn't Orange Cassidy believeable? I mean if Bruce Lee fought with his hands in his pockets, he still would have kicked 90% of all human beings asses back when he was alive. Cassidy is touted as an incredibly talented wrestler without the gimmick, and is in tremendous physical shape, so why isn't it believeable that he could stick his hands in his pockets and beat some wrestlers?
It's two things. One, it's that he doesn't even seem to be trying to beat anyone up. He'll throw a play kick and Excalibur will jizz in his pants about the vicious shot from Orange Cassidy.

But the other reason is that Orange Cassidy isn't an established star and this is a brand new show. If Brock walked out on SmackDown tomorrow and decided that he could kick the shit out of any one on the roster with his hands in his pockets, and then proceeded to do so, I'd buy it. The guy's a former UFC Heavyweight Champion who has been pushed for nearly a decade as a bad ass motherfucker on WWE TV.

Orange Cassidy is a 180-lb dude who has never wrestled a singles match or had a vignette about why he is as he is on AEW TV. He can be as "talented a wrestler" as people want, but then let me see that he's so good that he has to put his hands in his pockets just to make it fair.

Prime Time
10-31-2019, 05:27 PM
It's two things. One, it's that he doesn't even seem to be trying to beat anyone up. He'll throw a play kick and Excalibur will jizz in his pants about the vicious shot from Orange Cassidy.

But the other reason is that Orange Cassidy isn't an established star and this is a brand new show. If Brock walked out on SmackDown tomorrow and decided that he could kick the shit out of any one on the roster with his hands in his pockets, and then proceeded to do so, I'd buy it. The guy's a former UFC Heavyweight Champion who has been pushed for nearly a decade as a bad ass motherfucker on WWE TV.

Orange Cassidy is a 180-lb dude who has never wrestled a singles match or had a vignette about why he is as he is on AEW TV. He can be as "talented a wrestler" as people want, but then let me see that he's so good that he has to put his hands in his pockets just to make it fair.


I'd co-sign both of these things, but I'd add that it also goes beyond the hands in the pockets. It can't just be boiled down to some sort of objection to that alone, for me. The whole set up feels like a bit, rather than like I'm watching wrestling, so the whole feel of the thing is off. I've never seen a match of his or a moment on a show or anything where it hasn't clearly felt like a gear changes and it goes 'OK, time for Orange to do his shtick now, let's let him get his shit in'. And to me, that's not fun in the least.

PEN15v2
10-31-2019, 07:29 PM
...and it goes 'OK, time for Orange to do his shtick now, let's let him get his shit in'. And to me, that's not fun in the least.

Boom. Perfect way to phrase it. I don't even dislike Orange (yet) but that's definitely the case with a LOT of wrestlers. People complained about the 5 moves of doom, but they never were so predictably timed, and they fit into a match. Whether it's Cena or Hart, it wasn't about fitting their stuff in, it was that these guys had these moves that worked, so those guys used them when they could.

Kleckamania
10-31-2019, 09:34 PM
Now I could be wrong on this, so I ask anyone with more OC knowledge to feel free to chime in, but from what I've gathered from Orange's character, is that he is just too cool for school. He just can't be bothered to care about the match or people in front of him, at all. He has no reason to fret about it, cause he is above it all. So his schtick is like a Millenial pissing off everybody by simply not caring, when they all think he should. Hence the baby kicks to Tommy Dreamer. And what happened? After Orange's tongue in cheek, defiantly weak offense, Tommy tosses him over the top rope, and Orange's reaction is like he couldn't care less.

It's obtuse, hilarious even. Nothing like any wrestler you have ever seen before. Now imagine at some point, that character develops a reason to care/win, or becomes pissed off, and the hands come out. Now we have built a moment that is absolute top level anticipation. The moment that makes OC give a damn, and actually try. All eyes are glued. That kind of moment could create an amazing title win, or a big win in general. Granted, he'd go back to not caring, and losing a belt shortly after unless that moment changed him for good (which would be character suicide imo), but that moment- the build leading to it would create one of the most memorable moments in pro wrestling. For sure it is a long con, but if done right? It could be platinum. And the guy has charisma for days. He could get us there if they book it right. And AEW has given me no reason to believe they can't deliver that yet. In WWE's hands I'd be shitting all over it, but AEW has spent a long time writing these episodes, and have shown a much higher attention to continuity and detail than WWE has in decades.

I am a cynical, oldhead who if I was forced to choose, would still pick NXT over AEW. But that gimmick if they play it out right could print money, and help put them on the map in a big way. And they have a lot else going on for them. As long as Cody can differentiate friend/lover with boss. But Orange could be their ace in the hole. And his gimmick is so unlike everything before him in pro wrestling history. So refreshing. It works for me. Big time. And I think if you sat in the marketing rooms as they surveyed people on Orange, the average person is focused fully on that man when he is on screen. He is new. Interesting. Fun.

If wrestling wants to live, it has to draw in more than who it has already. It needs to go places it hasn't been before. I see this written all over his gimmick. For the entire industry to live, it has zero choice but to evolve. Which in turn benefits even the people who hate it.

Prime Time
10-31-2019, 11:09 PM
I don't know if that is meant to convince or not, but you aren't going to suddenly get people to drop their objections to the obvious staginess of it by trying to rationalise it, and - speaking personally - describing a ridiculous scenario like it's a good thing isn't going to win me over.

Beyond that... I mean, look, a lot of that can be easily turned on it's head. You say it's hilarious, and fun? I can just as easily turn it around and say it's as hilarious as a close friend's funeral and as much fun as passing a large kidney stone. You say he's charismatic? I repeat I'd rather stare at the wall. Those kind of arguments ultimately cancel each other out.

As for whether he's the licence to 'print money'... I get that people are optimistic about things that they like but I don't see anything tangible to base that on right now. He's certainly more popular than I can understand but it seems waaay optimistic to go any further than that. Maybe in time that'll change, but right now he's popular with the people who'll watch anyway, and not much more.

I hate the 'evolve' argument because there's no reason that it has to evolve in ways that push fans out, and it's also basically like telling fans like me we're holding the industry back. As I've said elsewhere, it's hard not to hear it as 'get with the programme or fuck off'. And that's a bitter pill to swallow when so far, these new evolutions don't seem to have done a damn thing to improve the popularity of wrestling, so far as I can tell.

Bah. I think I've had enough of this conversation now, and I'm minded to leave a thread for a show that clearly doesn't even want to appeal to me to the people who watch it. But I'll finish with one last comment. Maybe I'm wrong and other people will be right and this is the way they absolutely need to be going. I can't tell the future anymore than they can. But nothing changes the fact that I can't get any enjoyment out of this kind of thing at all, and if this is what the future has in store I'd honestly rather cut ties with whatever will be left of wrestling entirely.

Ah well. Que sera, sera.

PEN15v2
11-01-2019, 12:42 AM
Kleck, I feel like you're arguing against something no one has really stated. Prime isn't interested in watching AEW right now, COACH and I are the 2 who generally care less for it than others, yet all of us have stated the value of Orange Cassidy. No one seems to be saying he's a waste of time/money. While I watched Dynamtie, I told Cult that I was glad to see him finally debut. What I didn't say was I felt it was wasted or overshadowed in the Rick and Morty gimmick, and think part of his magic was lost. He's definitely entertaining, and original.

But, so was Eugene. So was Doink. So was Flash Funk. So was Al Snow w/Head.

The problem I see with OC isn't that he sucks, or that he's overrated. It's that his gimmick has an obvious shelf-life, has limited appeal (as Prime is indicating), and isn't meant to reach higher than a certain rung on the ladder. Basically, enjoy it now, while it's hot. Everyone who is digging it should dive right in. But of all the things I feel AEW is pushing that has a time limit until fans get fickle, OC is the obvious one. It's an act that can get old if it doesn't evolve at all. And while I think it's fair to consider the fantasy booking you're putting out, there's no confirmation that it will take place like that.

Powder
11-01-2019, 07:28 AM
But, so was Eugene. So was Doink. So was Flash Funk. So was Al Snow w/Head.

To be fair, Al Snow with Head was arguably one of the most popular gimmicks ever during it's height. I know you saw those ECW arenas with almost every fan with the Styrofoam heads in support of Snow.

Then when he went to the WWF full time, Snow w/Head were still just as popular, with the fans in 100% support of him and the gimmick, but the WWF did not see what they had with him. Snow could wrestle, had charisma, and a gimmick that was over as anything at the time. I am definitely not saying that Snow was the long term future of the company, but Snow with the Head gimmick could have easily been in the main event in the late 90s and it would have/could have been good and fun. A short title run (a few months) could have been comedy gold. Snow fighting with Head on who is the actual champion etc.

Eugene, Doink or Flash Funk had fan support, and were fun, but not one of those three were nearly as popular as Snow was, nor could anyone really see anyone of those three gimmicks as champion.

Snow's gimmick was that he had a mental breakdown and driven insane because of his years as a Jobber, but he was an actually talented wrestler. It obviously worked, and caught fire for a period of time. Upon his return to the WWF, they used him as a comedy act, which was gold, but they also could have pushed him into the mainstream, again for only a few months, and it could have worked.

Team Farrell
11-01-2019, 11:14 AM
No one seems to be saying he's a waste of time/money.
Here's the thing, I like Orange Cassidy. He makes me chuckle...when I'm watching a GCW show that nobody in the crowd or in the back is taking seriously.

Put OC on every TV show you produce. Just don't tell me out of the other side of your mouth that this company is more serious, and things matter more, and we're going to present more like a sport.

If you want to be "wrestling is fun", and you've found a billionaire to fund it and a TV network to air it, then do it! But don't tell me about how we have real contracts with real lawyers and this is real serious in the next segment because I ain't buying it.

I think that this is going to be a stumbling block for AEW at some point. Cody clearly wants to book traditional, serious pro wrestling and none of his partners are seemingly on board with that. At some point something's got to give.

A short title run (a few months) could have been comedy gold. Snow fighting with Head on who is the actual champion etc.
No, your top Champion should NOT be a comedy act. "Comedy gold" shouldn't be the goal in pro wrestling, especially at the top of the card.

Al Snow was a novelty act. That's not taking anything away from the guy's skill or the fact that he's got one of the best minds for pro wrestling that has ever lived. But his crazy guy with a mannequin head gimmick was not a top of the card gimmick. Later run Al Snow where he was the trainer of the Tough Enough students and a little more serious, by all means push that guy. But you're going to kill any meaning your title has when you're putting it on midcard comedy acts.

Powder
11-01-2019, 11:21 AM
Then what about now, with the Fiend? or The Undertaker for that matter?

The Fiend and the Undertaker are supernatural beings that cannot be hurt. How is that better than a comedy act for a short run? Look to yesterday, excluding Taker for the moment; The Fiend took 10 stomps, about 10 superkicks to the face, 2 sledge hammer shots to the head, thrown off the stage into "exploding equipment", and still got up like nothing happened to him at all.

A guy who had a mental breakdown and sees a mannequin head as a real person is at least based in reality vs a supernatural being that is now virtually invincible.

Team Farrell
11-01-2019, 11:36 AM
Then what about now, with the Fiend? or The Undertaker for that matter?

The Fiend and the Undertaker are supernatural beings that cannot be hurt. How is that better than a comedy act for a short run? Look to yesterday, excluding Taker for the moment; The Fiend took 10 stomps, about 10 superkicks to the face, 2 sledge hammer shots to the head, thrown off the stage into "exploding equipment", and still got up like nothing happened to him at all.

A guy who had a mental breakdown and sees a mannequin head as a real person is at least based in reality vs a supernatural being that is now virtually invincible.

First off:


It's why I think that The Fiend's near invulnerability is dumb as shit, and why I think that I'll probably want to tear my hair out if I watch that six man from last night.

Second, both Fiend and Taker are treated like legitimate. Like they are a threat to those that they face.

Even ECW didn't put the belt on him. They treated him just a step above comedy.

The gimmick got over, I'm not disputing that. But just having an over gimmick does not make you a top guy. If that's the case, put the fucking IWGP belt on Toru Yano for a few months and let comedy reign supreme.

That title should be seen as the pinnacle of the company. The top, ultimate thing that you can achieve and strive for. Ted DiBiase never got it. Mr. Perfect never got it. Jake Roberts never got it. The only people who hold it should be the guys the company presents as the tippy top. Not the latest guy off the indies with some support. Not the person the fans chant loudest for. Not the guy who's been there 20 years and is getting a "thank you".

Every time you deviate from the title being the pinnacle that you can achieve in the company, you devalue it somewhat. And if that's not the top thing you can achieve any more, what is? What achievement exists.

I can't imagine Triple H and Steve Austin bleeding buckets inside a steel cage over the prize that just spent three months as "comedy gold".

Powder
11-01-2019, 11:46 AM
The fact that DiBiasi, Perfect, Roberts or even a sober Scott Hall never won the WWF or WCW world title is a damn shame. We could argue until we are blue in the face on which guy was more deserving, but that probably will be reserved for it's own thread.

But I know you already said and hated the fact that the Fiend is basically Doomsday in that he cannot be beaten and only gets stronger each time you "kill him". But that does not change the fact that the WWE just put its title on a Supernatural Creature. How is that the pinnacle? The Fiend/Bray Wyatt, is an awesome character, and perfect for pro wrestling, but he is not a character that the WWE should want to represent the company. How will anyone take the WWE seriously if/when Good Morning America or any talk show for that matter wants to interview the champ? The Fiend comes out in his mask and gives and interview? Please. Again I like the character, and it is awesome that they put the belt on him, but the character is not the pinnacle or the 'top guy'.

Even when heels are champion, they give interviews, and state that there is a beef between him and his opponent, but they are still men, not supernatural creatures.

Prime Time
11-01-2019, 12:09 PM
The big problem with that argument is that Coach can just come back and say that The Fiend isn't what 'should' happen either, and all those points just go away, immediately.

Powder
11-01-2019, 12:19 PM
Oh I know, and I get it.

But I guess my point is that if the WWE has no problem putting the title on a Supernatural Character like Taker back in the Day, or now The Fiend, then why would it not be ok to put the Title on a guy like Al Snow w/head for a bit?

If the reasoning is that Snow is a comedy act, which he basically was, and that would devalue the title, then how is an impervious supernatural monster not also devaluing the title?

Team Farrell
11-01-2019, 12:24 PM
I don't think that The Fiend should be Champion. I don't think that he should be anywhere near it. I don't think that he needs it.

Undertaker in the late 90s into the 00s had scaled back his gimmick big time and become a respected veteran. But he could have gone 25 years without holding that title and still have been a major star.

Seth is at least positioned as the top guy in the company. 1C to Roman and Brock, I guess. AJ was treated the same way. Jericho is treated that way in AEW. Okada is treated that way. Nick Aldis, Rush, etc. are all positioned as the top guy in the company.

The Fiend could be positioned as the top guy in the company if they really wanted to.

Silly comedy guy #3 can't be positioned as the top guy if you want your company taken seriously.

Note: I thought that Kofi's reign was dumb as fuck when he continued tossing pancakes out on his way to the ring.

EDIT: Again, Taker and Fiend are at least presented as legit killers. Al Snow was a silly comedy guy. I can buy 1993 Undertaker vs Yokozuna. I can buy 1999 Taker vs Steve Austin. I can buy The Fiend vs Brock Lesnar. Can you for a second but Al Snow beating any of those guys?

Prime Time
11-01-2019, 12:25 PM
At the risk of putting words in his mouth, my guess is that Coach will probably say that putting the title on someone like the Fiend devalues the title, whether WWE has no problem with it or not, but it still doesn't devalue it as much as much as putting it on a character that is not taken or presented seriously.

For what it's worth, thinking back to most of the people I knew who were watching WWE in 1998 or 1999, and the vast majority of them would have shit over anyone not named Austin, Rock, Mankind, Hunter, or someone similarly positioned, holding the belt.

EDIT: Ah, he got in there before me anyway.

Powder
11-01-2019, 12:31 PM
I don't think that The Fiend should be Champion. I don't think that he should be anywhere near it. I don't think that he needs it.

Undertaker in the late 90s into the 00s had scaled back his gimmick big time and become a respected veteran. But he could have gone 25 years without holding that title and still have been a major star.

Seth is at least positioned as the top guy in the company. 1C to Roman and Brock, I guess. AJ was treated the same way. Jericho is treated that way in AEW. Okada is treated that way. Nick Aldis, Rush, etc. are all positioned as the top guy in the company.

The Fiend could be positioned as the top guy in the company if they really wanted to.

Silly comedy guy #3 can't be positioned as the top guy if you want your company taken seriously.

Note: I thought that Kofi's reign was dumb as fuck when he continued tossing pancakes out on his way to the ring.

EDIT: Again, Taker and Fiend are at least presented as legit killers. Al Snow was a silly comedy guy. I can buy 1993 Undertaker vs Yokozuna. I can buy 1999 Taker vs Steve Austin. I can but The Fiend vs Brock Lesnar. Can you for a second but Al Snow beating any of those guys?

The Ministry of Darkness disagrees with this.

But I do get your overall point.

PEN15v2
11-01-2019, 12:59 PM
To be fair, Al Snow with Head was arguably one of the most popular gimmicks ever during it's height. I know you saw those ECW arenas with almost every fan with the Styrofoam heads in support of Snow.

Then when he went to the WWF full time, Snow w/Head were still just as popular, with the fans in 100% support of him and the gimmick, but the WWF did not see what they had with him. Snow could wrestle, had charisma, and a gimmick that was over as anything at the time. I am definitely not saying that Snow was the long term future of the company, but Snow with the Head gimmick could have easily been in the main event in the late 90s and it would have/could have been good and fun. A short title run (a few months) could have been comedy gold. Snow fighting with Head on who is the actual champion etc.

Eugene, Doink or Flash Funk had fan support, and were fun, but not one of those three were nearly as popular as Snow was, nor could anyone really see anyone of those three gimmicks as champion.

Snow's gimmick was that he had a mental breakdown and driven insane because of his years as a Jobber, but he was an actually talented wrestler. It obviously worked, and caught fire for a period of time. Upon his return to the WWF, they used him as a comedy act, which was gold, but they also could have pushed him into the mainstream, again for only a few months, and it could have worked.


Oh I know, and I get it.

But I guess my point is that if the WWE has no problem putting the title on a Supernatural Character like Taker back in the Day, or now The Fiend, then why would it not be ok to put the Title on a guy like Al Snow w/head for a bit?

If the reasoning is that Snow is a comedy act, which he basically was, and that would devalue the title, then how is an impervious supernatural monster not also devaluing the title?


The Ministry of Darkness disagrees with this.

But I do get your overall point.

Do you?
Let's look at it exactly as it is with AEW: Should shin nudging OC be pinning Chris Jericho or Cody?

The obvious answer is no. This isn't to say it wouldn't be entertaining. But common sense shows that it would be a mess.


As for Al Snow, you completely argued against my point while actually repeating it. Yes, he was over, and yes it was over big. But would even ECW version of Al Snow been credible enough to beat Austin, Rock, or Undertaker? Not at all.

I honestly don't mind AEW having OC while Cody and Jericho measure their dicks about how much bigger theirs are over WWE/HHH/Vince, as long as it's kept separate. I feel they accomplished that. They wrestled in costumes over nobodies. That doesn't bother me. Kofi tossing pancakes while WWE champ didn't bother me, because you can be a happy go lucky guy outside the ring. But once the bell rang, Kofi became serious. I've seen UFC fighters go out to dance coordination that was fun and silly, and then kick major ass in the Octagon. So COACH and I differ there.

Where I drew my line was Kenny Omega doing comedy spots, while he's the guy Jericho beat to become the top contender. He's snapping his fingers and cosplaying while we're being told he's the best bout machine and best wrestler in the historyz of everz. That felt like an insult to me.

I feel like AEW is really good at the comedy stuff for the audience that likes it, but the issue is that I don't see how that kind of audience can grow with that kind of stuff. I don't know if it's bias exactly, but I know from day one I've felt the Elite perform for only a certain kind of fan. And everything they've done seems directed at only these fans, and almost feels like they are insulting those who aren't part of their Inner Circle of fans. ECW was similar. And it was partially why ECW never achieved the greatness of other brands, and stayed in bingo halls. It was a very good product, just like AEW's. But they targeted such a small portion of the overall audience, that everyone else felt like they didn't belong watching it.

Anyways, going way off track. But comedy gimmicks are great in the midcard. Not the main event.

Cult Icon
11-01-2019, 01:52 PM
I drew my line was Kenny Omega doing comedy spots, while he's the guy Jericho beat to become the top contender. He's snapping his fingers and cosplaying while we're being told he's the best bout machine and best wrestler in the historyz of everz. That felt like an insult to me.

See this is the sort of thing that feels like some of the hyper criticism you and Coach call out about WWE. Kenny Omega snapping his fingers and Kip Sabian, Jack Evans and Angelico doing a spot Ric Flair has done his entire career is an insult? Quite honestly I didn't even know Omega had even done the finger snapping thing till you pointed it out and outside of this forum I've heard no one else bring it up; most people thought it was an homage to Flair. On top of that it was three seconds in an eleven and a half minute match that was otherwise taken completely seriously by everyone involved, unless you're going to count the fact that the Bucks and Omega dressed up for Halloween (which is something they always do; they love Halloween, as evident by the Being the Elite specials). Like if the entire match was spots like that and every week Omega and the Bucks dressed up as video game characters then I'd get how that would quickly grow old. But this was a one time thing for a holiday and a spot that took up three seconds of a match otherwise taken completely seriously. That would be like me checking out of movie because of three seconds of a shot I thought wasn't very good.

Like let's keep things in perspective here. Is AEW perfect? No; we've all been over repeatedly some of the bad comedy from the pre-shows, that limo scene on the show Wednesday was far too long, the women's division could be better and I am absolutely TERRIFIED at the thought of Brandi Rhodes wrestling (which is why I'm really hoping that vignette is leading to Kong doing the work and Brandi just managing her). Do they take shots at WWE at times they shouldn't? Yes. Are they for everyone? No. But a) no wrestling promotion is going to be for everyone and b) on the whole the worst thing I've seen said about the show is "it's not always better than NXT." By in large people have liked AEW Dynamite; Cagematch, a site that I feel is very good at measuring the pulse of things, has rated every AEW Dynamite show at 7.50 or higher, with three of them being above an 8.18. Reviews on the whole have been very positive. The ratings are obviously not RAW numbers but other than this week against Game 7 of the World Series (which unlike past weeks did have a heavy effect on both them and NXT) they've drawn very respectable numbers for TNT. And that's for a promotion that didn't exist a year ago. The crowds for the show have been great each and every time from what I've seen. There's a lot to like about what AEW is doing, even if it isn't perfect or to the liking of some of the people here.

PEN15v2
11-01-2019, 02:02 PM
Nope, not the same. You're likely not even talking about the same spot.

I am not watching it again, but I remember all 3 opponents were swaying on their feet in one corner, looking like bad 80s NES game animation, and then Kenny had his back to them, he snapped his fingers, and all 3 fell over.

That's nothing like Flair did. Flair would at least get hit before trying to walk off and then fall. And I didn't love that either.

And nope again, the rest of the match was not serious, it was completely overchoreographed. It was a stage show, an act, a live performance. Not a wrestling match. The only time it felt like a wrestling match was when the heels were on offense.

Cult Icon
11-01-2019, 02:14 PM
That is exactly the same spot. Jack, Angelico and Kip all got up wobbly, Omega snaps his fingers and all three flop to the ground. And all three did get hit with Snap Dragon Suplexes prior to that spot so let's not act like they just walked in there, Kenny snapped their fingers and they fell.

And as for the match on the whole you are generalizing based on your biases and likes, same way I am. You didn't take it seriously. That doesn't mean no one else did. Kenny Omega, The Young Bucks, Jack Evans, Angelico and Kip Sabian are three guys who are really good at flying around. It's how they win matches, although Angelico can win them on the ground in the right situation. The best way for them to win is the style of match right there. Other than that one spot that match was very serious; it just wasn't serious in the way you wanted it to be. That doesn't mean it wasn't for other people.

PEN15v2
11-01-2019, 02:37 PM
That is exactly the same spot. Jack, Angelico and Kip all got up wobbly, Omega snaps his fingers and all three flop to the ground. And all three did get hit with Snap Dragon Suplexes prior to that spot so let's not act like they just walked in there, Kenny snapped their fingers and they fell.

Correct, one part one. Incorrect one part 2. I just watched it again.

Kenny hits the SnapDragon on JAck, who bumps to the left side of the screen. Then he snaps Angelico. Then Kip counters at first, but gets one as well.
THEN, Jack gets up from the left side of the screen, walks over the right side of the screen, wobbles until Kenny snaps his fingers, and then he falls AGAIN.

If you don't see why that's a million times past anything Flair did, then there's no point to this conversation.

EDIT
And that's ignoring the fact that the match opened up as a 3-4 minute tornado match while the Elite didn't tag, were in and out on their own, while the ref looked like a tool. In the fed telling as how important rules are going to be.

It's a fucking joke.

Powder
11-01-2019, 02:43 PM
And that's ignoring the fact that the match opened up as a 3-4 minute tornado match while the Elite didn't tag, were in and out on their own, while the ref looked like a tool. In the fed telling as how important rules are going to be.


This is my biggest problem with AEW, and I am an AEW supporter. If AEW wants to have every tag team match be tornado rules, just come out and state that. That they are completely changing tag wrestling forever by having every match be held under tornado rules. Simple.

But what has been going on, is tornado rules apply, then they don't, then they do, then for the finish, they do not again by making sure the correct guys are in the ring.

Make a choice, tornado rules or no tornado rules, but keep consistent at least in every match.

PEN15v2
11-01-2019, 03:00 PM
I want to make clear, all the guys in AEW are talented, and I know they can wrestle. Also, I know they've been great in AEW. Omega is in no way a bad wrestler. I don't know about overrated or anything, but he's very very good. And good wrestlers are allowed to have a comedic side. Omega definitely portrays that well.

But that match was a fusion of everything I hate about AEW. Spots for spot sake, overchoreographed, ignored rules in a fed telling me how important structure/rules will be, a confusing intro I didn't understand at all because it's like an inside joke I'm not welcome to, and then that awful segment we've been debating. I get it, this type of wrestling is popular with cagematch and other online critics.

But guess what? I'm not cagematch. I couldn't give two shits how well reviewed it is. I have a brain, and I know a big reason it's getting rated so high is because AEW is targeting to please those types of fans. But ever since the days I wrote on the LOP main page, never have I been the typical online fan. Never have I cared what critics thought. I don't watch wrestling for others to enjoy. I watch it for me. And that match infuriated me unlike anything I've seen. HIAC exasperated me, but AEW infuriates regularly. I want to like it. There are great highlights on the show. But goddamn, they need to stop waving their dicks around talking about how cool they are, and instead just be a good god damn fucking wrestling show.

Cult Icon
11-01-2019, 03:01 PM
That I will agree with. It's been a bigger problem with the Lucha Brothers (who come from the lucha tag rules where you're the legal man if your partner rolls out of the ring) but there's no doubt AEW as a whole has had that issue. I'd personally just prefer they adapt the lucha tag rules thing and establish that as your baseline, much like WCW did back in the 90s. It's the perfect balance where there can be tags, but you can still keep the action going if a guy rolls out of the ring or something.

But again, that's one of a handful of things that are problematic to me.

PEN15v2
11-01-2019, 03:22 PM
But again, that's one of a handful of things that are problematic to me.

And that's fine. As heated as we discuss things, I never fault you for liking what you like. I'm a WWE fan, but any WWE fan who doesn't see the amount of flaws in their shows is delusional. For me, the good generally outweighs the bad (last month of SD, and the spring/summer 2019 of both main brands are a obvious exceptions). And AEW I'm giving more of a chance because they do offer something I enjoy that I don't find elsewhere. The sense of new and exciting is HUGE for them. Jon Moxley has reminded me why I felt he would be the true breakout star of the Shield back in 2013-2015. The Joshi contributions to the womens division is impressive. The attention to tag wrestling is such a huge spot for me. I like the TV presentation a lot, and it's better than almost any WWE product most weeks.

But the damper to that is how the tag division is built around Young Buck type matches. Lucha Bros also do this, Private Party, SCU (to a point)...etc. And they lose me quickly. The womens division is incredibly weak overall. I don't find the Jericho work to be all that great.

It's been a frustrating show to watch, knowing how I prefer ROH's special events/PPVs, and Impact has been on a tear, and MLW has a really solid show (though the push to this PPV isn't doing anything for me), and NWA is on the rise, and NXT is still the best wrestling product overall.

LK3185
11-01-2019, 03:49 PM
Deleted a long post cause I was gonna be a hypocrite lol.

AEW was awesome this week. Loved it.

Powder
11-01-2019, 05:11 PM
I saw this and thought of Cult and Pen's fictional conversation.

https://scontent.fewr1-6.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/70326550_2722177908049406_5993617919446089728_n.jp g?_nc_cat=102&_nc_oc=AQl8i9MbTAKNtnV2KIuHvkWch0jtJYqZVcbfT5ZEMyv B6H-hZS9EP5NcC_BAbd0LWO8&_nc_ht=scontent.fewr1-6.fna&oh=bc760c84fab0999e6da3149dca73b263&oe=5E591ACB

Prime Time
11-01-2019, 07:41 PM
There's a lot to like about what AEW is doing, even if it isn't perfect or to the liking of some of the people here.

This got me thinking and maybe this is a better way of getting my point across. Because basically, I've identified four different types of fan - and we've got three of them in this thread.

You've got the 'wrestling can be anything' people on the one extreme. I think these people seem to be mostly behind this stuff and don't think there's a limit to what you can do with it.

You've got fans on the other end who are traditionalists who won't watch at all so long as the too staged stuff is in play. You might appeal to them if you change, but you can write them - who am I kidding, us - off entirely with some of the current content.

There's also people like Pen and Coach, who don't mind this kind of thing but think you can only use it in certain places - push it too far and you run the risk of losing them.

Lastly, there's a group we don't seem to have here but I've seen elsewhere, who like AEW for the most part but actively dislike some of these 'excesses', for the lack of a better word. You'd improve the appeal of the show for these people if you cut them out, and it's likely that you lose them as viewers if the silly stuff takes on a bigger part in the show.

There's also a fifth group, but we don't really know much about them. The potential audience - people who might watch wrestling, but who don't currently. We certainly don't know how many there are. In truth at this point they might not even exist anymore.

Nevertheless, obviously everyone wants to try and appeal to that fifth group. One strategy would be to try the sports-based presentation they mooted initially, and appeal to the traditional fans, something that would please the other two groups of fans but might not retain all of the first group.

Instead, they obviously think they can write off fans like me, and can tap into a larger section of the fifth group to counterbalance that. That remains to be seen but it's obviously the goal.

I think that what needs to be recognised is just how big a swing they are taking on it, because right now there's not much to base it on but faith. And I guess the one thing that the people cheerleading for it need to remember is, the more you push it, the riskier it gets. If you've already alienated one group who probably would have watched with different presentation, how many more can you risk on the idea that this are the tactics to bring invisible would-be fans out of the woodwork?

It's not about me or my set - we're already gone, and won't be back without a huge shift in presentation. It's those other two groups in the middle that you risk losing. And if they do lose those groups and it turns out that there isn't some big new audience for this stuff to take their place, then this will be a huge missed opportunity. We can say it's great that there's another place to work and all that's true, but if that's all that comes out of the last couple of years and a billionaire starting a promotion all of this will ultimately be a bit of a waste.

LK3185
11-01-2019, 08:04 PM
I don't think its a waste if someone tries and fails. The fact they got to this point is incredible to me. Yes the Elite needed a Billionaire to help them get on TNT but the fans that are in the building every week aren't going there to see Tony Khan. Its now of course a business that wants to be profitable and soon but like Darby Allin bought a house just recently and that doesn't happen without AEW existing at least at this very moment in time.

I'm not saying that AEW will work long term but to even be on TV in 2019 and actually beat one of WWE's Brands in ratings week after week is impressive to me and if the company folds in 5 years, they still have that.

Prime Time
11-01-2019, 08:07 PM
Well, it'd be a waste because it'd make it less likely that anyone else would try again. As we've seen, opportunities like this - where you get a wrestling company on major TV backed by a billionaire - just don't come along every decade. You've gotta make them stick.

LK3185
11-01-2019, 09:04 PM
I guess but if AEW were to fail that doesn’t necessarily mean that they were wrong serving whichever group they are serving. It could just mean that the market cant support two wrestling promotions at the tv level longterm successfully. We don’t know what the potential viewer wants exactly that would make them tune in or if like you said earlier if the lapsed fan even cares at this point.

Degenerate
11-02-2019, 01:00 AM
I really dig the discussion happening here. I don't have much to add to it but please keep it going!

I am enjoying Dynamite a lot, and it's pretty much the only wrestling show these days I make sure to take time to watch. Everything else I just fit in my schedule if I have a couple of spare minutes. This week's show was also pretty solid, and they began to give more time to promote storylines outside of straight up matches. It was a nice change of pace.

One thing I haven't liked in the last few episodes has been how the shows end. They finish something and go off the air very quickly without giving us time to register what just happened. It feels very abrupt. Last week it was the time-limit draw between Mox and PAC. I kind of understand them going off the air so quickly because they "ran out of TV time". But this week after having the first ever tag team champions crowned, couldn't they have a nice celebration on TV? Hopefully they can time things out a bit better as time goes on.

In any case, it's been only a month, and so far there's not a whole lot to complain about. I'm hopeful that they can continue to improve.

LK3185
11-02-2019, 01:55 AM
The timing is an issue i feel and Tony or somebody has to take charge and tighten things up or put your angle type stuff that you don't have to rush at the end and put the matches that are important but need the time earlier in the show.

Prime Time
11-02-2019, 03:25 AM
I guess but if AEW were to fail that doesn’t necessarily mean that they were wrong serving whichever group they are serving. It could just mean that the market cant support two wrestling promotions at the tv level longterm successfully. We don’t know what the potential viewer wants exactly that would make them tune in or if like you said earlier if the lapsed fan even cares at this point.

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree on this. They're running against the received wisdom of a lot of the history of the wrestling business. For me, if you do that and fail and waste a chance like this, it's completely fair if people call you out for your hubris.

Or, to put it another way, if you back yourself on a long shot with the stakes so high, you have to win, or you have to front up and take the criticism that'll follow.

mizfan
11-04-2019, 02:24 PM
I think the counterpoint to that is that they have made it this far by going in the face of those who told them they could never get this far without changing their style/philosophy. Doesn't mean there isn't a limit to how far you can push things, but you can at least understand that mindset vs. looking at what worked farther back in history.

Prime Time
11-04-2019, 02:32 PM
I think you can always understand young people - particularly guys with enough cockiness that they can do OK in the wrestling business - backing themselves until they're absolutely proven wrong. But understanding it doesn't really change the equation all that much, for my money.

mizfan
11-04-2019, 03:04 PM
I think it shows at least a higher possibility to buck historical trends and still succeed. 3 years ago if someone suggested a promotion would be in the position AEW is now by doing what they've been doing, I don't think anyone would have believed it.

PEN15v2
11-04-2019, 03:13 PM
I think the counterpoint to that is that they have made it this far by going in the face of those who told them they could never get this far without changing their style/philosophy. Doesn't mean there isn't a limit to how far you can push things, but you can at least understand that mindset vs. looking at what worked farther back in history.

Use that same logic to WWE. They've made it this far, there must not be any reason for them to change and improve then, right?

Prime Time
11-04-2019, 03:17 PM
It depends on how you define succeed, I guess. Personally, I expect them to 'succeed' if it just means to stay in business and entertain a minority audience.

I think the trouble is there's plenty of difference in the things they've achieved and the things they are trying to achieve (or, at least what they should be trying to achieve if you believe they should be aiming at growing the wrestling audience), and while the former can be explained by changing circumstances (and there's lot of reasons for thinking that they have changed), that's not something you can say about the latter. Other than optimism, which is what I suppose thinking what you can buck a historical trend without the solid basis amounts to.

Powder
11-04-2019, 03:29 PM
You can already define AEW as a success. In less than 1 calendar year, they went from an idea between friends, to getting a billionaire to back and fund them, to a promotion with PPVs to a real Wrestling Company, who signed some major talent (and my guess is that in 2020 some major players will jump ship), to having a weekly Wrestling Program in Prime Time. That is impressive.

And what are we doing? We are;

1. Debating their ratings, which are pretty solid considering they only have 3 "Household names of the US wrestling business" (Cody, Jericho, and Moxley) on their roster, and the casual fan probably did not know the rest of the talent.

2. Debating which show/company is better, the WWE or AEW. This is probably the best judge of success. I remember when TNA came out, and it was no where near as an impact (pun intended) to the business. The only time TNA was relevant was when they brought in Hogan, changed the ring to 4 sides, and moved to Monday. The WWE stepped up and brought back Bret Hart to counter that, and TNA still failed. AEW so far is gaining ground and we are debating what we like more.

So AEW is a success regardless of weather it is our individual cup of tea or not. They have a prime time TV spot against the WWE monster, and are winning each night, so far 4 for 4. In another year, we can then judge if AEW is a continued success. Again, I think that in 2020 when the wrestlers from WWE have their contracts expire, and if they jump to AEW, that will really determine if the company will last.

Prime Time
11-04-2019, 03:30 PM
I'm sorry, but the minute they got backed by a billionaire then they moved on to a different playing field. Not only can you not call them a success yet, you won't be able to do it for years yet (unless there's a sizeable shift in the current wrestling landscape).

For a few guys playing promoter, they were a success, but now they're being judged by big boy standards. Anyone who says we know that yet is kidding themselves.

Powder
11-04-2019, 03:35 PM
How long does AEW need to be around to consider them a success?

WCW was a success, and for a time the best wrestling company on the planet, then they folded spectacularly. But they were not that much of a success from 1988 - 1995, then they exploded in 1996-1998, then they folded in 2001. So does AEW need to be around 3 years? Because WCW was not doing well until the nWo. AEW is already having people talk about them, much more than WCW was in the early 90s.

Prime Time
11-04-2019, 03:40 PM
It's not a question of how long, honestly. It's more complex than that - and you first of all have to work out what the conditions for success are, as I said above. And comparing it to WCW is completely pointless. Comparing it to other wrestling companies is probably pointless, but comparing them to one that existed a generation ago in a completely different landscape is beyond meaningless.

Powder
11-04-2019, 03:44 PM
I am looking at it like this. As I already said. In less than a calendar year, they went from an idea between friends to a true company with a decent size roster with a weekly prime time show with a PPV schedule. Love them or hate them, that is a success. Now can they sustain that success, is the more pressing question, not if they are a success.

Prime Time
11-04-2019, 03:52 PM
You're judging them by the the standards from when they started, and that's just a really low bar for people who are now backed by a billionaire. Like it or not, the game changed when that money came into the picture. I'm judging them by where they're at now, because frankly that's all that matters. People need to stop letting their feelings interfere with their judgement on this.

For what's worth, I fully expect them to make it enough to stay in business. But as of right now there's no evidence that they can grow the business at all, never mind to replace the fans that their tactics are displacing, which is the bare minimum standard that I'll ultimately consider as a bar they have to get over to be called a success. And it's going to be a while before we have the answer to that question.

Powder
11-04-2019, 04:03 PM
The XFL (original version) was backed by a billionaire and it failed almost immediately. They finished that first season, but it was already failing in less time than AEW's Dynamite has been on air. Terminator Dark Fate is already being called a flop in its opening weekend, despite having huge studio backing, bringing back Linda Hamilton, erasing movies 3-6, and James Cameron.

Being backed by a billionaire does not put you somewhere else, it means that you have funding, that's it. AEW could have flopped hard in weeks 1-4 and then we would not be having this conversation, but being that they are succeeding, means that they are a success.

Sustaining that success is the question; not are they a success as they have proven to already be one.

Prime Time
11-04-2019, 04:07 PM
Only if you judge them by the lowest possible bar. I am not. There is more going on here than you seem to comprehend.

Look, I get that people are optimistic about them and want to take their part - that's fine. But I'm not looking for any opportunity to praise them, or to knock them for that matter. I've said many times on Twitter that the falling ratings in the US are not really anything to worry about, as other posters who follow me can probably back up. I'll be the first to own it if they do make it beyond doubt. I probably still won't watch it myself unless it looks very different, but I'm not too proud to recognise things when they have been proven.

But there's plenty of things going on that will factor in to whether or not what they are doing has worked more than just to attract a niche, it can't be judged by the lowest possible bar they have to clear, and I'm not going to be suckered into judging them by that standard just because of other people's optimism.

That's all I've got to say unless we've got a genuine debate rather than people just reiterating their position.

PEN15v2
11-04-2019, 04:53 PM
AEW is already having people talk about them, much more than WCW was in the early 90s.

You're kidding right? It seems that way today because we have social media, but WCW was still a bigger company in 1992 than AEW is today.

The other thing to keep in mind is sustainability. I don't think AEW numbers will continue to drop, at least not to disastrous numbers. But no matter what Big Dave says, TNT won't be satisfied with their numbers for long. And buzz is slowing down. Again, it's not a disaster, and I don't think it's time to panic. But long term, it seems obvious that AEW is backing themselves into a corner. By limiting themselves to just a limited audience, and one that is consistently negative and fickle, it seems fair to argue that it'll be downhill from here unless changes can be made.

This isn't my rant on choreography or dumb gimmicks. Every promotion has these issues, even the ones I prefer. And most long term wrestling fans know that a true wrestling show has variety. MLW's PPV debut this past weekend was a success in large part due to the variety of matches and character gimmicks. I was much more impressive with MLW SuperFight than anything AEW has done, because even though they had a spot fest lucha match, and a garbage trash hardcore match, they also had a real wrestling (technical/scientific)match, and battle of hosses, a lightweight match, and a main event that was a bit of everything.

But AEW seems to be concentrating on one type of wrestling more than any other. It feels like because WWE has never really gotten it right with their cruiserweight division, AEW is capitalizing by mainly concentrating on their lightweight division, and that style of match up (spot/choreographed). I get wanting to offer something not found elsewhere in prime time, but by concentrating primarily on that in ring style, it does make a show harder to get through. (must I repeat, this is my opinion only).

AEW is offering a great show for alternatives to WWE. But what's often forgotten is that WWE is already extremely varied, so it's hard to be an alternative to them without either doing the same thing they are, or going to far in the opposite direction that it could potential turn people off. Like it or not, WWE is the standard. The measuring stick is WWE. This doesn't mean they have top quality (obviously!), but they are the comparison. And if any company is trying to "compete", they need to keep that in mind. So far. I dunno.


EDIT
Adding to the "success" comment, I'm going to agree with Prime. Picture this: Is MLW a success? But if Tony Khan approached them and gave them a massive budget, and got them TNT prime time... would they be the same level of success?

This isn't to say that AEW is a failure. I would actually agree they are off to a great start, much like XFL were. But a year later, if they aren't in business anymore... would you say they were a success?

Degenerate
11-07-2019, 02:15 AM
That was one hell of a promo by Cody. It's great to see some of these guys flourish when they're unshackled. Jericho's parody video package was pretty hilarious, too. Huge pop for the Virgil appearance. I wasn't really looking forward to this match but they've done a really good job setting it up. I'm kind of looking forward to it.

Solid show this week, but they should consider making shorter matches. Every week there are a couple of matches that have no business going as long as they do.

Also, if they can relegate Dark Order to AEW Dark for the rest of their time there, I'd be okay with it. I just don't get them.

Kleckamania
11-07-2019, 11:37 AM
Use that same logic to WWE. They've made it this far, there must not be any reason for them to change and improve then, right?

Use that same logic again though- when you dont pick a target demographic to cater to, and instead pick all of them, you wind up with watered down shit like WWE main roster is, and has been, for over a decade now. It goes both ways. You just gotta consider if your chosen demo can sustain you.


On that note. I did not enjoy AEW last night. The main event was way too painfully telegraphed to the point where I thought about turning it off early, cause it was obvious Moxley and Pac would interfere. Not to mention Omega can be so telegraphed at times that it loses suspension of disbelief. The finish was waaaaay too convoluted.

The womens match was bad again. You could see them waiting for spots in moments, so obviously that I was cringing. And not just Riho. Her mentor spent so much time pandering to the audience in spots that it became absolutely unbelieveable that her opponent was still waiting for her offense to be delivered.

The Cody promo was great. The Jericho segment was hilarious. I enjoyed the tag match for 3rd place between Private Party and Dark Order. It was a great match (not sure why people think Dark Order is bad, in a sea of similar tag matches, they wrestle and are unique, and stand out. And are good wrestlers). And Orange Cassidy continues to steal my heart. Those little kicks on Pac was my moment of Zen.

The show overall though was a big dip in quality imo.

Mr Chop
11-07-2019, 07:11 PM
My Beautiful BastardPAC kicking Cassidy in his dumb face gives me so much hope that AEW might know what they're doing.

Also, Cody just cut the best promo I've seen in so long. A proper make me want to see a wrestling promo. It also made me desperately want him to win the title. Just god damn masterful.

Powder
11-07-2019, 07:42 PM
Welcome back Chop. It's been a minute.

But when Pac kicked OC, I seriously thought that he really hurt him. OC's hands were still in his pockets, and Pac kicked him right in the face and it appeared that he shattered OC's sunglasses. Later when the camera panned, you saw OC holding his eye. Either that was really good consistent selling, or maybe he did get hurt. Either way it looked bad.

Cult Icon
11-07-2019, 08:15 PM
Great selling. He was fine today when AEW posted a video of MJF kicking his seat on the plane while they were flying out.

Oliver
11-08-2019, 06:58 AM
Is The Bastard PAC the best wrestler in the world right now?

So glad he pulled out what I've always known as 'The Neville Sell' for that Tornado DDT.

https://uproxx.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/neville-takes-tyler-breezes-ddt.gif

Mr Chop
11-08-2019, 11:15 AM
I'm not watching alot of wrestling these days so not qualified to discuss best really. PAC seems to have every facet down just now though. Love his character work in AEW, easily my favourite part of Dynamite just now. He feels so clear in who he is and what his motivations are. Same reason why Codys promo was so effective, and got to love the War Games tease.

Also, cheers Powder. Interesting times in wrestling. Plenty to talk about!

Cassidy sold that kick like a champ. Must be tricky taking a bump with your hands in your pockets.

Cult Icon
11-08-2019, 11:26 AM
There is going to come a time when Sir Orange takes the hands out of the pockets and people are going to see just how talented he is.

And Ollie, the best wrestler in the world right now is Jack Evans and he would be able to prove it if Kenny Omega wouldn't keep ducking him!

Mr Chop
11-08-2019, 11:32 AM
I've no doubt Orange is talented. I just don't like his schtick. So until he stops it, he gets kicked in the face by BASTARDS!