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View Full Version : No Flips Thread - for fans of logical wrestling



Cult Icon
10-31-2019, 01:06 PM
A safe place for people to discuss how much they hate flips! Looking at you Pen. Have at it!

PEN15v2
10-31-2019, 01:15 PM
Can you rename it the "logical wrestling" thread? And we can rename the AEW threads "Olympic Choreographed Gymnastics" thread, and the lucha ones "Masked Olympic Choreographed Gymnastics"?

Cult Icon
10-31-2019, 01:16 PM
I have given you this much. Don't push your luck!

PEN15v2
10-31-2019, 03:05 PM
I don't hate flips, or dives.

What I hate are flips and dives for the sake of flips or dives.

I've seen some great lucha style work in WWE and WCW. It fit the logic of the match.

You know I'm a fan of Gran Metalik, and Almas. Mysterio is amazing. But they make their stunt moves belong. In reference to your joke in the Cain/Brock discussion, I would be all for Cain using a flip to catch Brock offguard and beat him that way. That's great writing. As long as the flip/dive/ranna isn't about Brock standing in one space waiting to be hit for too long.


By the way, this discussion came out of a talk about Cassidy and finger snapping spots. Not flips/dives. In the end, it isn't the actual move that sucks, but the setup. Canadian Destroyers. Anything that just ridicules the idea of logic will knock the match down a peg.


EDIT
That spot in your gif signature. I don't hate it. I don't know what the setup is though. If those 3 guys on the outside are just standing and waiting, it sucks. If they were brawling until they saw the torpedo coming at them, then it's a much better spot.

Cult Icon
10-31-2019, 03:09 PM
STOP! RUINING! THE JOKE! PEN! GAH!

In regards to the Star Jr. spot, fake Mistico, Valiente and Fugaz had actually taken each other out with dives and were just getting back up when Star Jr. wiped them all off the face of the earth with his sweet flip. So it made sense. For the record, I don't love it when they stand around for eons either looking up at the guy like they're waiting for the cake to come out of the oven. It doesn't grind my gears to a complete halt but I do roll my eyes before getting back into it.

Prime Time
12-30-2019, 10:36 PM
So, you know I had a lot of problems in this area, with flips and dives and the like. I could point to all kinds of reasons that they are problematic with any kind of logical presentation, but one of the biggest things for me is that they are supposed to be high risk, high reward. Once they become the staple of your offence.... eh, it ruins the whole thing. If they are that kind of a risk then you should miss often enough that you should lose more than you win.

Maybe, just maybe, there's one talent special enough that they can defy the odds, that they are so good at it they can hit enough to be a competitor. But once people start doing it left, right and centre, then if everyone can hit these moves at will, then where's the risk? Where's the jeopardy? Narratively, it's a thinner experience as a result.

As I say, that was not my only concern, but it was always right up there.

mizfan
12-30-2019, 11:14 PM
It's definitely something I agree has become overused. I love a good dive as much as anyone, I'd say the biggest problem is we've got plenty of people doing dives who don't really seem to be very good at it. Cutting down on the sheer number of people diving is something I'd be very much down with.

Prime Time
12-31-2019, 08:23 AM
Oh, absolutely. Beyond a certain size it makes very little sense so those people should generally leave it to smaller guys, and the smaller guys who can't do it so well should leave it to the people who can. It's also situational, too. A dive should really only be something you do as a last resort, because the lack of control that you have, and the risk of injury, and the fact you're at the mercy of your opponent, and their ability to catch you and/or move out of the way.... in narrative terms they are only really acceptable in a situation where the guy doing it wouldn't really be able to win without throwing everything at someone whenever they get the opportunity to do it.

If you want any kind of sense, then frankly if you've got an alternative as a fighter then to be honest you should be using it. That's the biggest problem with them, and deep down I think it's why people complain about them.

It's less the case with more of the flippy moves but to be honest, the same logic applies in a lot of cases there as well.

mizfan
12-31-2019, 08:31 PM
Size is a factor, but I do so love Vader types who can surprise you with super agile moves. Ideally saved for special occasions though.

Prime Time
01-01-2020, 05:12 PM
Very mixed feelings about stuff like that. Blew my mind the first time I saw Vader do it. Ultimately though, I think it probably does more harm than good, especially for the smaller guys on the roster. But y'know, the ship may have sailed on that now.

mizfan
01-02-2020, 02:36 AM
Just can't bring myself to be against it... another thing that's probably best saved for special occasions or those who can do it best!

Prime Time
01-02-2020, 06:59 AM
The rarest of rare occasions, perhaps. I remember being impressed with it, as I say, but I can also recall seeing guys that size do huge moves from the top made them less impressive when the smaller guys would do it afterwards. All part and parcel of risk/move inflation.

Same deal with Lesnar and the Shooting Star Press (although he botched the one that counted). Helped him (until the botch) but I'm not sure it was good for the majority. Certainly not for a guy like Kidman.

mizfan
01-02-2020, 03:15 PM
I'm not sure if that's really true though, speaking broadly. Rey Mysterio has been pretty consistently one of the most popular wrestlers of anywhere he goes, even though on paper plenty of big guys can do a lot of things he can do.

PEN15v2
01-02-2020, 04:00 PM
But Rey is very unique. His speed and precision is almost unmatched. When I see Keith Lee go for a dive, but it's sloppy, it's still impressive due to his size. But if he nailed it 100% every single time at the same speed, then Rey wouldn't be as unique.

Prime Time
01-02-2020, 06:39 PM
It's true in so far you have to be super special in order to still have appeal, while if no one else is doing your shit, you look that much more special just because of your distinctiveness. It's not going to hurt talents like Rey, but anyone not at that level could suffer.

mizfan
01-04-2020, 11:06 PM
Well I definitely won't argue that most wrestlers are at (or even near) the level of Rey Mysterio!

Prime Time
01-05-2020, 09:51 AM
Yeah, that's the thing - this kind of question is much more of an art than a science. There are always examples who, for whatever reason unique to themselves, defy the general rule. But the basic premises still hold in 90% of cases or more.

There are a whole lot of arguments that can be rebutted with Mysterio, for example, but if he's the only one, that tells you much more about Mysterio than the principle!