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Cult Icon
05-30-2018, 04:43 PM
I am disappoint LOP overlords. How is it there is no LU thread since the reset?! Oh well; there is now. New season begins in two weeks. How excited are you?!

mizfan
05-31-2018, 11:04 AM
So hype!!! The long season gaps have dampened the excitement for some I guess, but LU is still my favorite wrestling product on god's green earth, and I am super pumped to see it come back. I can't wait for them to get the ball rolling again, can't wait to see the new Temple and finally find out what the heck happened to Dario, not to mention begin the long awaited reign of Pentagon!

comfortablynumb
05-31-2018, 05:02 PM
Have they been running any teasers? I haven't been paying attention much.

mizfan
05-31-2018, 07:14 PM
They put out a trailer a while ago, I don't do trailers because they sometimes spoil shit but I've heard from others it's pretty damn hype!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgroFGOzd1E

Prime Time
06-04-2018, 08:17 AM
Ha, can't watch the trailer in the UK on copyright grounds. Also can't get it through Netflix here. Not actually sure how anyone in Britain actually manages to follow it, but I know some people do.

mizfan
06-04-2018, 11:31 AM
Maybe through Amazon? I don't get El Rey sadly but they release the episodes in real time through Amazon so that's worked well for me. You have to pay a bit but it's pretty cheap if I remember, a couple bucks per episode or something.

Prime Time
06-04-2018, 11:33 AM
Maybe. I think Oliver watches, he'll probably share when he sees this.

mizfan
06-04-2018, 12:01 PM
I will say this, if I did get El Rey I would probably never need to watch another channel. When I see commercials it looks like nonstop stuff that I would enjoy.

Oliver
06-08-2018, 06:31 AM
Maybe. I think Oliver watches, he'll probably share when he sees this.

Oh, hello!

Yes, I'm following - honestly, I do tend to pick them up off the web when I can rather than actually watch them on the TV or anything. It's not perfect, because I'd obviously rather give the show itself viewership. If I can I try and compensate that with buying merch for the show/wrestlers just to show some love and give them a few quid.

I'm very, very excited for the new season. Will need to watch the trailer for it, but it's less than a week to go now!

mizfan
06-12-2018, 07:46 PM
I'm seriously feeling the hype for this! My favorite wrestling promotion of the past few years coming back, with my favorite guy as champion at long last. It's gonna be good, you know they're gonna try to start it off with a bang in the new temple!

Cult Icon
06-13-2018, 03:21 PM
So season four is going to kick off with Aztec Warfare IV! I'm guessing with the shorter season they wanted to get it out of the way off the bat. Can't say I blame them; it should be great if the other three Aztec Warfare's are anything to go by.

LWO4Life
06-13-2018, 04:47 PM
So, do we know if this is going to stream anywhere?

mizfan
06-14-2018, 12:37 PM
It's already on amazon but you gotta pay a couple bucks an episode, or drop a little chunk of change for the whole season. I just bought the whole thing, gonna watch the first episode tonight!

Rob S.
06-14-2018, 12:39 PM
I'll be curious to hear your thoughts. I was talking to Cult Icon and we both agreed it wasn't the best episode to start a new season. It was a little off for sure and he said that he heard the talent thought the first taping seemed off as well. I actually thought it seemed a little too polished, kind of missed the grittiness of it myself.

mizfan
06-14-2018, 01:07 PM
Interesting... I've steered away from most spoilers but I know they did Aztec Warfare right off the bat, which excites me on paper. Very curious, will share my thoughts tomorrow for sure.

Cult Icon
06-14-2018, 01:13 PM
To piggyback off what Trips said; back when the tapings started someone I know in the know went to the second day of tapings. He discussed the first day with most of the roster and staff and it was pretty unanimous that they thought the first night could've gone better from both an in ring and production standpoint. Even Vampiro apparently didn't put it over, and Vamp will put over everything he does. The good news is he was also at the next taping and everything there was very good according to him, so if nothing else it should be "better" next week.

That said, while this was the weakest Aztec Warfare by far with a few really bizarre booking decisions, I still thought it was pretty good once it got going. The #1 goal for the match was to make Pentagon look like a complete boss and on that front they 100% succeeded.

Benjamin Button
06-15-2018, 07:28 AM
I liked the first show. I thought they did a great job keeping the Temple looking and feeling the same. Was definitely character and story driven. Only didn't like how Mil was used. Still Pentagon looked great. Worldwide underground looked good.Cueto was awesome

Oliver
06-15-2018, 08:49 AM
Doing AW as a season opener is a great idea if you've forgotten what happened nearly two years ago, mind you - the issue here is that it didn't really have all of the in built storyline stuff that AW most often has around it.

I think the new look will take a few episodes to grow on me, this felt a bit less like the dingy underground fight club that the previous three series did. That said, I didn't not enjoy it as a presentation.

I hope my only two questions aren't too spoiler-y:

1) Where's Dante Fox at?

2) Dario Cueto is Antonio Cueto, right? There's no way someone plays an old man that over the top without it being a disguise. Has Dario faked his own death because he knew the police were after him in season 3 and that he probably couldn't escape? Is there going to be a big reveal at some point in time during this season?

comfortablynumb
06-15-2018, 08:59 AM
I had to purchase on iTunes because I couldn’t find a stream. A fun return and a good way to introduce new viewers to LU. I will say there were two wrestlers involved that make me want to change the channel immediately: Dreamer and Chavo. Chavo being treated as a threat is also groan worthy.

Rob S.
06-15-2018, 09:02 AM
Oli- I can't answer the first one, but you'd think he'd still be there as he was tweeting out about the premiere the same day, yet weirdly he was MIA.

On the second question, I feel the same way. There has to be a payoff there with it being Dario, because otherwise it's damn stupid. They could have just gotten another actor or even wrestler to play Antonio.

Sounds like you and I were on the same wavelength in regards to the new look. I miss the dirtiness of the old Temple. But overall, it's back and that's awesome.

comfortablynumb
06-15-2018, 09:55 AM
The Mariposa re-casing was interesting. Don't know who the new person is but her body is a lot different.

Not a complaint at all but it's funny how the last we saw Marty he had his head shaved and now it's back to usual. A new person watching on Netflix in a few years will be confused.

Rob S.
06-15-2018, 10:23 AM
See I thought Mariposa was different as well, but Cult Icon swears it is still Cheerleader Melissa. Errr, now I don't know again

comfortablynumb
06-15-2018, 11:22 AM
I don't know now either. I thought for sure it was a different person but I see her Twitter and she's still promoting it.

Cult Icon
06-16-2018, 12:54 AM
It's her. Multiple people have confirmed it. She's bulked up and dyed her hair is all.

As far as Dante Fox is concerned, he's totally in the season. It appears everyone has already forgotten the season four trailer that showed Fox in full military garb saluting someone off screen; the idea is supposed to be that he's being redeployed I believe. He will be back eventually though; they love him, he's been promoting the show and was probably kept off the first episode both for storyline reasons and (much like how Cage, Aerostar and Ivelisse were) because LU wanted to protect some people from getting steamrolled by Pentagon. The main point of that first episode was to establish off the bat they are fully behind Pentagon as the top guy and to go from there. A wise move.

I have no idea about the Dario thing. They did show him in the coffin at the start of this episode, which to me seems pretty telling. Maybe it's a wax mannequin deal and the way Antonio or whoever it is acted about his son (which was very over the top) does kind of suggest it may all be a ploy, but I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Dario is really dead. That doesn't mean he stays dead though. Again I go back to the season four trailer. There was a scene where the Luchasauras is fighting Johnny Mundo in a crypt, where a coffin is clearly shown. I initially thought it was Jack Evans' final resting place (since Jack is leaving the show at some point this season), but now that we've seen Dario in a coffin himself...I wonder if the plan is for Mundo, motivated by how terrible a promoter Antonio is, sets out to bring Dario back to life and succeeds. Then you get Luis Guill playing both characters and a Dario vs. Antonio feud. I could be wrong but I kind of feel that's where we're going right now. And it's not out of the realm of possibility considering Puma and Mil have both been brought back from the brink before.

mizfan
06-20-2018, 12:32 PM
Late to the party on this, but here are my overall thoughts:

I did think they stumbled out of the block on a few things. Having AW on the first episode isn't the worst idea, but I agree with those who said they didn't have time to reintegrate a bunch of stories and make all the moving pieces work like they usually did, so I ended up wishing they'd at least saved it for the 2nd episode. Related to that idea, they spent almost 15 minutes doing non-match stuff to reintroduce the season, which made the match itself seem unusually rushed. Didn't appreciate how a lot of guys seemed to go out instantly after just a couple moves. I didn't mind the surprise entrants and quite liked some of the additions, even Chavo, though him lasting to the final 4 and eliminating Fenix shouldn't have happened. I'm glad to hear Fox will be in the season, though I do think the way Havoc was abruptly added to the team could have been done better.

What I DID like was the fact that they went in so hard with Pentagon, as others have mentioned that was the right call and as far as getting the message across that he is now finally the killer we always wanted him to be it was good stuff. Like I said, I liked the new faces in the Temple, and I pretty much always love AW so even though this was not the best version they've done, I still had a lot of fun with the match itself. I liked the finishing stretch a lot more than I did in AW3, though that had a stronger body. Penta/Marty was a real blast though, and I hope we get to see a full version of that match sometime this season. I dig the look of the Temple, keeping a lot of the look the same but switching up some aesthetic details. I'm VERY invested in the whole "is Dario dead? is he in disguise?" thing, and I love the B-Movie style appeal of the Antonio character. Very interesting to me also that Agent Winter said it was Antonio who ordered the hit, and that it was carried out by "gangbangers". Like Cult said, if Dario is dead, I don't think he'll stay dead, as he's pretty central to the whole story and it wouldn't feel right to continue long without him. Very hyped to see what happens with that.

Overall, just very glad my favorite wrestling product is back and excited to see where the season goes!

Oliver
06-22-2018, 05:47 AM
In LU, where a child who died in an earthquake was brought back to life by an undead teleporter who has half of an amulet that would, if complete, grant her immortality, but the other half is held by her police chief sister who demands that she gets her a gauntlet which grants the wearer incredible power that was stolen by a hunter who lives in a taxidermy filled cabin in the woods and has subsequently passed it on to someone who has taken it somewhere (in space or TIME, looking at nobody in particular Aerostar), I can well believe that Dario Cueto could come back from the dead.

I loved the episode this week! I loved that that turned Matanza vs Pentagon on it's head from it's origin. Where once Pentagon had his weaknesses due to his desperation to 'prove' himself to his fans or Dark Master, and Matanza was kept hungry and turned into a massive unstoppable monster because his brother knew how to handle him, now Pentagon is confident and dominant, he's proven himself and has the power, while Matanza is now being handled by his father, and man who mentally abused him, pretty much, his entire life, didn't care enough about him to take him away from the emotion and physical abuse of his mother, and is weakened as a result. So now Pentagon absolutely wrecks Matanza. That was beautiful storytelling across multiple series.

Rob S.
06-22-2018, 08:02 AM
So my cable provider screwed up and I've actually already seen next week's episode. I won't give any spoilers away, but we get another new debut, a new challenger for Pentagon, a return and a 30 minute Main Event which holds its own in terms of great casket matches. Of course anytime you get Fenix and Mil together it's going to be good.

mizfan
06-22-2018, 04:29 PM
Damn Rob, that's a cool and random happening!

Not gonna read this thread too closely as I'm not watching episode 2 until tonight, but I will say I don't love Jack Swagger as a pick up. Like everyone I thought he had potential... in 2009. Maybe he can surprise me though.

Benjamin Button
06-29-2018, 03:04 AM
I'm loving season 4.. great year for character driven matches. Am I the only one who enjoys Antonio Cueto as much as Dario? That man deserves an award.

Mil looked great in the casket match. Great rebound after the Aztec Warfare. Loving the Reptile Tribe/World Wide Underground.

Hate Jack Swagger still and can't stand him putting his hands on my guy famous B.

Good stuff.

mizfan
07-02-2018, 04:16 PM
Yeah, I'm really enjoying it a lot as well so far. It's early for me to compare it to other scenes but I did really love the three way, some spectacular visuals in that one.

comfortablynumb
07-02-2018, 04:58 PM
The Dario Cueto actor should be getting more roles from this show. I've only seen him elsewhere on It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia.

mizfan
07-02-2018, 05:30 PM
I like the Antonio character but I'm looking forward to getting Dario back as Dario. He's just so damn good in that role, and I think there might be only so far you can go with Antonio.

Oliver
07-03-2018, 05:43 AM
The Three-Way to the Grave match was the first time I've felt, properly, like we were in 'The Temple'. Something about the lighting and the fighting through the building really added to that.

mizfan
07-03-2018, 01:54 PM
Mil Muertes emerging from the double doors as Crane looked out over the crowd was as cinematic a moment as they've done in a match, which is saying something. It was only hurt very slightly by the fact that Crane's facial expressions look like a hand puppet on coke.

Oliver
07-06-2018, 11:24 AM
So, after last night, I think they're bringing the seven Aztec tribes story into this series more heavily. Seems we have them all outlined now:

1. Death - we saw the close-up of the medallion last night for this one. Presumably Muertes and Catrina are in here.
2. Deer - another medallion close-up from last night. Cuerno, clearly.
3. Rabbit - Paul London and his weirdos.
4. Dragon - El Dragon Azteca, El Dragon Azteca Jr, presumably Rey Mysterio Jr too? Also Drago maybe if he breaks the hold on him by the...
5. Reptile - Kobra Moon, Dragon Penis, Vibrator, Daga.
6. Moth - Marty and Mariposa
7. (I'm assuming) Feline - Puma and maybe some as to be revealed characters, unless they go back to Bengala which seems...pretty awful, I guess?

Wondering if this is the season where the seven tribes need to do whatever they have to do.

Cult Icon
07-06-2018, 11:54 AM
7. (I'm assuming) Feline - Puma and maybe some as to be revealed characters, unless they go back to Bengala which seems...pretty awful, I guess?

I know he was out of shape and all at the end of his LU tenure but Ricky Marvin slander will not be tolerated! He is a brilliant luchador who should be treasured.

I think this season is all about assembling the tribes together and then next season will be them vs. the Lord, with Antonio on the Lord's side and a revived Dario leading the tribes. I still cannot shake the feeling that at some point Dario will be resurrected; I don't know how but it will happen.

Rob S.
07-06-2018, 11:57 AM
Funny you mention Dario. Couple things from this week. Papa Cuetos cloudy eye seems to come and go. In the meeting with Cuerno it was clear and his voice wasn't as gravelly, but when he came out with Matanza it was back. Also, right before that, Striker calls him Dario. Mistake? Is anything in LU a mistake?

Cult Icon
07-06-2018, 12:10 PM
With Striker, yes!

But again, I do believe Dario is coming back, regardless of which way. I mostly subscribe to the "he'll be resurrected" theory because we saw what looked to be Dario's corpse in the coffin during that brief funeral scene. I suppose Antonio could be Dario in disguise and that "Dario" we saw was one of the endless supply of wax mannequins the Cueto's keep to throw people off but...I don't know. Plus I'm not sure even in disguise Dario would treat or do to Matanza what he's done thus far in unleashing the full god within him. But we'll see. Either way I think Dario will be back at some point.

mizfan
07-06-2018, 12:53 PM
Definitely agree Dario is coming back one way or another. He's the true protagonist of the series.

Love that 7 tribes breakdown, Ollie. I'm really hoping Marty winds up being a false member of the tribe though, and screws things up at a key moment. That scene that hinted his whole history could be a lie was spectacular and he's the type that's just begging to break away and join the side that wants the world to end in fire and madness.

comfortablynumb
07-06-2018, 01:21 PM
I like coming here and reading your guys thoughts. Love the idea of Marty joining the other side to watch the world burn.

Was anyone impressed by Vibora? I think that's his name. He actually got to show some moves on the episode.

mizfan
07-06-2018, 02:02 PM
I liked his presentation a lot in season 3, and if anything I'm worried if he starts flipping around too much it'll decrease his aura. There's no doubt he can do some really impressive athletic stuff though, and he's been working really hard on the indie scene in between seasons.

Benjamin Button
07-07-2018, 12:57 PM
I just like how they're using him as a weapon of destruction that emerges when the world wide underground fucks with the their tribe....didn't think that much of cobra moon until now, but I love how their bringing fear into the equation. One of our most basic innate instincts is the fear of snakes and the big guy is the Damian of the alliance ... they've really stepped it up with the reptile tribe this season...and they couldn't have better opponents than the world wide underground

mizfan
07-09-2018, 02:51 PM
I would have never guessed or suggested the feud, but it has been a lot of fun. A lot of diverse characters and style clashing against each other.

Oliver
07-13-2018, 04:37 AM
OK, so Matanza is now an actual God who can kill people.

That's...something that needs unpicking.

LWO4Life
07-13-2018, 10:18 AM
Well, I think we are seeing the end of LU and they need a way to write off people... Unless... Unless, we see Fenix rise from the ashes and show us that death is something wrestlers can overcome... in that case... I want to see the return of Bael and Mr. Cisco!

Rob S.
07-13-2018, 10:25 AM
Two deaths in one episode. Poor Mascarita! Killer Kross is a good addition to the roster. And Mr. Cisco is still around, he's just bouncing with Paul London now.

LWO4Life
07-13-2018, 10:51 AM
I could have sworn Dario killed Cisco. Since they took El Rey off Sling, I've fallen WAY behind.

Rob S.
07-13-2018, 10:52 AM
He did, Mr. Cisco is dead. But the wrestler is now Mala Suerte in the Rabbit Tribe

LWO4Life
07-13-2018, 11:23 AM
I see... I heard that Mascarita might be playing another character as well... very interesting. I have no idea why, but I just feel like Fenix ain't dead. I got to watch last week, but I just don't see him dying, unless they are that tight with AAA that AAA was like, "don't use Fenix anymore," and LU was like, "consider him dead."

mizfan
07-13-2018, 12:59 PM
Had to put off watching the episode until this weekend... I'm hyped though! I saw Cult saying it was the best of the new season and I saw it did really good ratings, which is great!

Benjamin Button
07-13-2018, 01:47 PM
To me the new season has just been off the hook. Loved the last segment on this show.

comfortablynumb
07-13-2018, 03:56 PM
The Rabbit Tribe broke bad.

Macho Mourn
07-13-2018, 07:27 PM
This show was good. Not the best ever, but worth the view this week...

Until the last segment. It ended up being the best show of the season. So great. Rabbit Tribe's money.

mizfan
07-15-2018, 11:34 AM
There's no way Fenix stays dead. Dude has come back before, he's got extra lives to spare. Just gotta pull himself back together!

Gotta agree that Rabbit Tribe segment was absolutely brilliant. The visuals of it, the design, the execution, just beautiful.

Oliver
07-17-2018, 08:05 AM
Yeah, I think Fenix is coming back some how.

There's a big part of me that thinks Catrina is going to die later in the series now that she's mortal again.

mizfan
07-17-2018, 05:51 PM
Ooooh, I see so much potential in that. My real question is will Crane claw his way out of the grave too... I don't even like Callihan in most incarnations but they've done a great job making his character interesting. Remember when he had a ouija board hidden in the ceiling of Dario's office? He's got some kind of occult connection.

Also, I can't believe I never realized his name was a play on his NXT name, Solomon Crowe. I can't tell if that's dumb or clever but I like it either way.

Rob S.
07-19-2018, 10:37 AM
Huge fan of this week's episode. Loved the little twists and turns in regards to Gift of the Gods. The Vibora/Mundo match was off the hook with Vibora really, really showing me something. We also got a nice debut from an Impact wrestler and another title match. LU is back in stride, no doubt about it. But for me, the best part of the night was The Mack's reasoning. Perhaps the best line of the season, or all seasons.

Cult Icon
07-19-2018, 10:54 AM
That fucking Vibora performance was unbelievable. It's even more unbelievable when you remember the last time he was in ring for this show he couldn't even have a 3 minute match with Paul London without getting lost. I'd been aware that Mundo and Taya had befriended him and taken him under their wing between seasons (I recall several videos of Mundo teaching Vibora certain flips and I know they worked together on a few indie shows) but this was beyond anything I could've pictured. Mundo deserves massive credit for seeing something in this guy and getting him to reach this level and Vibora deserves the credit for working his ass off to get there; this is a guy who could barely move in season three and now he's doing Kota Ibushi's Golden Triangle moonsault! He'll have to prove he can do it with someone other than Mundo at some point but this match was very encouraging, on top of being an awesome match that actually bettered Pentagon vs. Cage (which was still good and as it turns out merely a set up for what should be a better rematch).

Totally agree with Rob that LU is back in stride. That first episode was problematic for many reasons but since then the show has felt like the old LU, Antonio Cueto is a lot of fun (if not quite Dario) and I find myself forgetting that the new Temple isn't actually the old Temple at times. Next week's Gift of the Gods match should be dope.

comfortablynumb
07-19-2018, 06:06 PM
But for me, the best part of the night was The Mack's reasoning. Perhaps the best line of the season, or all seasons.

Totally agree. I haven’t seen the main event yet but just saw Mack’s line and had to comment. That’s exactly what someone would say if they thought it was real. Credit to the booking because Mil is scary as shit.

Benjamin Button
07-22-2018, 04:49 PM
Mil's looked great and Pentagon's looking real strong, baby, looking real strong...love the simplicity but we'll executed chase for Cage's arm.

Benjamin Button
07-22-2018, 05:36 PM
I've been watching season 1 again of Lucha underground and next to Dario Cueto Konan murders every segment he's in...what happened to make him leave?

Rob S.
07-22-2018, 06:50 PM
Problems with Dorian Roldan from AAA. Huge problems that exist to this day. Konnan left to do Crash. And despite LU working independently, he wanted nothing to do with anything Roldan may be involved in, even in a small way

Benjamin Button
07-22-2018, 07:10 PM
Man, that's too bad...I saw an article where Lucha underground accepted ex AAA talent but gave bad deals to ppl who worked with Konan...Konan really did stupendous good cut scenes in season 1 that gave method to Puma's work

mizfan
07-22-2018, 10:41 PM
Super agree that Konnan was a phenomenal onscreen character. Would love to see him back at some point, though obviously it'd be more meaningful if Puma was still around. But he still offers a tremendous value.

Cult Icon
07-23-2018, 06:27 PM
Problems with Dorian Roldan from AAA. Huge problems that exist to this day.

You're a few months behind! Not only are Konnan and Dorian speaking again, Konnan is once again in charge of booking AAA (and is also appearing on camera as the leader of the stable MAD, which consists of Jeff Jarrett, Juventud Guerrera, Kevin Kross, Teddy Hart, Jack Evans, Cage and Taurus, among other rumored names). Some time before the spring Dorian, disgruntled with how Vampiro was booking things in AAA and just overall ticked off with how bad he allowed things to get, reached out to Konnan, smoothed things over and offered him full control of the booking. Konnan agreed and he's been back since April 20th; the shows have notably gotten better since and former AAA guys like Fenix, Pentagon, Cage, Kross, Evans, Hart and even Flamita are taking bookings (though they aren't signing full time).

Now does that mean he'll be back in LU? I would be pretty stunned for this season as LU wrapped up just as he and AAA were mending fences and I was told back when all this went down that it was unlikely (though it had more to do with Vampiro having a position with LU creatively that Konnan would normally have). But season five, especially if there's a new Prince Puma? I wouldn't be floored by it, especially since Impact, LU, AAA and even MLW are all cozy now and let guys work between the four promotions.

Benjamin Button
07-24-2018, 04:20 AM
I hate that Vamp and Konann can't work together. They have great chemistry. Konann to me coming back to Lucha underground is as good as it gets. He murders every scene he's in!

Rob S.
07-24-2018, 09:57 AM
Damn Cult, I didn't know any of that. Good to hear that AAA has gotten better and Roldan came to his senses. Konnan back in LU would be cool, but he and Vamp need to figure their shit out.

Cult Icon
07-25-2018, 01:52 PM
That's easier said than done. These two have issues dating back 27 years ago when Vamp got off the bus looking to work for CMLL, where Konnan was the biggest star at the time. Vamp then became a mega star overnight just based off his look (I, and he, would say he didn't really get good until he was in WCW when he became sort of a cult hero) and before you know it's him and Konnan as the Rock and Austin before there was Rock and Austin (that's no joke; guys like Jericho and Norman Smiley will tell you Vamp and Konnan were megastars during that era). Naturally because they were 1a and 1b they had a bit of a rivalry and that, combined with people in and out of the business playing them against each other (there's a story about a Mexican soap opera where both guys were up for the lead role, but I'm not sure how accurate that is) and both guys being confident, head strong, stubborn individual led to a real life hatred. That was then compounded when Konnan jumped with Antonio Pena to form AAA; you then had Konnan as the ace of AAA and Vamp as the ace of CMLL, and they battled neck and neck until Konnan started working more and more for WCW in 1996. Vamp has alluded to a conversation between the two when they were both in WCW that supposedly led to them burying the hatchet but at best it seems it just made them civil; there still is a lot of bad blood between the two and given how long it's gone on for I don't see it ever going away.

But having said that, it's not like they cannot work together. They did work together in LU (and Vamp, as far as I know of, had nothing to do with Konnan being let go) and they're working together now in AAA with Konnan booking and Vamp agenting matches (and of course they're feuding on screen right now too with Konnan as the leader of the rudo stable MAD and Vamp as the technico authority figure). The concern I brought up earlier about Konnan returning to LU was more because they would have to get rid of Vamp as head of talent to give Konnan a major backstage role (beyond managing and agenting as he did in season one) and I don't see that happening. If it's just managing a new Prince Puma and agenting matches though? I can definitely see him being back.

Oliver
07-26-2018, 05:17 AM
I love this show and want to marry it and have lots of tiny little baby shows running around our feet.

Rob S.
07-26-2018, 10:18 AM
You can't because I've already married it and had 3 lucha babies who crawl around with masks on throwing each other into the baby gates.

LWO4Life
07-26-2018, 10:30 AM
You can't because I've already married it and had 3 lucha babies who crawl around with masks on throwing each other into the baby gates.

Legit, you should see pictures of my family if you want lucha babies... LOL... even my wife gots a mask... hehehehe

Rob S.
07-26-2018, 03:40 PM
This week's show was decent. The prelim matches were just OK and I'm still not sold on Jake Strong (Jack Swagger) in LU. He just doesn't seem to fit if you know what I mean. However, the Trios match followed by the Triple Threat for the Gift of the Gods title were both insanely good. I really like what I've seen from Desmond X. Only saw a little bit of his Impact work before this. But based on the final scene I don't see the new GOTG Champion holding that belt very long.

Oliver
07-27-2018, 03:56 AM
Do they sell the LU varsity jackets The Mack was wearing? Because my goodness, those are pretty and I want one.

I thought the opening two matches served their purpose, but they were essentially just a bit of filler for the main event(s).

Cult Icon
07-27-2018, 11:15 AM
The only problem I have with Jake Strong's booking is that they're just having him run over people instead of having competitive matches, which I think would serve him better instead of trying to make him an unstoppable bad ass. But beyond that I'm a little perplexed people think LU is going to strong with him when he's legit getting a massive reaction every time he comes out. He was massively over beating down Big Bad Steve and he was even more so in this match; Guevara only got the crowd on his side with that moonsault and even after that the fans went back to cheering Strong anyway. I know the guy isn't the most highly regarded and such but it's hard for me to think LU is getting it that wrong when he's that over. I just wish they gave him more competitive matches so he could get himself some sympathy as well, thus making him more over.

mizfan
07-27-2018, 07:18 PM
I'm with Rob personally in that I'm not really digging Strong very much, but I also have to admit Cult's right, the fans in the building seem to be loving him. I don't really get it but gotta go with what's hot!

Benjamin Button
07-28-2018, 04:16 AM
Hoping he's being built just to get his arm broken by Pentegon

Cult Icon
07-28-2018, 10:08 AM
Strong isn't even coming close to the title. You gotta remember that we're already seven weeks into a twenty two week season; at this point Pentagon is still feuding with Cage (with the payoff at least an episode away), at least one match with El Dragon Azteca Jr. on the horizon and a program with Marty "the Moth" after that, based off this week's end tag. And on the off chance that doesn't carry Pentagon through the rest of the season, there's still the yet to be explored thread of Vampiro's master going after Pentagon, and I'm pretty sure Strong isn't that guy. So whatever it is Strong is being built up for, it's not Pentagon. I'd be absolutely floored.

mizfan
07-28-2018, 11:01 AM
The only thing is they're doing a limb breaking gimmick with Jake too, so it's not hard to think of them doing a battle of the bone breakers. They've been sending Penta through a lot of guys in a hurry so I could see them doing a one off. I don't see it being a big defining program though, if it happens at all.

Benjamin Button
07-28-2018, 04:22 PM
Oh it won't be defining but love the idea of battle of the bone breakers...it will just elevate Pentegon more but anything with Strong won't be defining. Himself and Alberto Del Rio need to keep their stink out of my temple.

mizfan
07-28-2018, 04:52 PM
Del Rio was over in the Temple too, but I'm with you, I didn't really care for the guy even there, even though he was better there than he's usually be other places (at least that I've seen). Off the top of my head the only ex-WWE guy I've really enjoyed in LU is Mundo, and he left very much on his own terms.

Benjamin Button
07-29-2018, 12:57 AM
I think Johny really hit his stride in season 3

mizfan
07-29-2018, 01:07 AM
Yeah, I've always liked the guy but putting it all together with WWU was really top notch.

Benjamin Button
07-29-2018, 02:38 AM
My life since Wednesday night has been work, drink, watch Lucha underground fall asleep...spent 4 days trying to finish this show

mizfan
07-29-2018, 11:14 AM
Haha, I'm afraid to ask, but does that mean you're working too much or you're drinking too much?

Benjamin Button
07-29-2018, 02:14 PM
Lol working.been doing 12 hr days.


Finally finished episode 7 today...I can't get with dragon Aztec Jr. for some reason...he's got great history...matter of fact I really liked whoever played his dad better...again, Aztec Jr has good history with Rey also, but the performer just still falls flat on me...they're gonna really have to do something big to bring him.home.

Pentegon has looked great this season...sure he's running through people but he's not out of challengers. He's still doing a fun cat and mouse game for Cage's arm. Also he's got Marty after his teeth/,title .

mizfan
07-29-2018, 08:04 PM
I kind of get you with Azteca. I honestly like him but if he's meant to eventually be a truly central character, he needs something a little more. Wonder what Black Lotus is up to...

That bit with Marty in his creepy apartment was real good. I can fully get behind an extended Marty/Penta program. Marty has some of the highest potential of the whole roster I think, the man embodies his character.

Benjamin Button
07-29-2018, 08:17 PM
Also, Vampiro saying Pentagon is playing to the fans too much...there's something bigger happening...

mizfan
07-29-2018, 09:41 PM
I am 100% fascinated by how low key Vampiro has been this season. After the finale I thought he'd have to commit to something more outright but he's been all Ian again.

Benjamin Button
07-31-2018, 02:11 AM
He does this to brilliance every season...he's slowly brewing something to be sure, though.

205 Clive
07-31-2018, 03:49 AM
Howdi folks. I've taken my first foray into the world of LU with this season 4, and enjoying it so far.

The storyline element feels a lot more slow burn than the likes of NXT, which I'm patient with and enjoying. One of the more interesting stories at the moment for me is the relationship between the Trios champs. It feels very combustible and could blow up at any time. I'd like to see them have a trios title match some point soon to see how it plays out that way.

mizfan
07-31-2018, 11:28 AM
Glad you're on board Clive, I think you'll find a lot to like! Have you seen any of the first three seasons? I'm sure you've heard this before, but if you do get a chance to check them out they are most excellent!

comfortablynumb
08-02-2018, 12:05 AM
Was shocked by the death tonight. Next week should be interesting.

205 Clive
08-04-2018, 05:59 AM
Hi Mizfan, I have seen highlight videos of Season 1, but that's about it. Sadly, the seasons aren't on the UK version of Netflix which I would have really liked to binge through. I'm enjoying it so far and I may be a day or two behind, but I always go out my way to see it.

Yes that death was interesting, especially as it happened right after the 8 person tag match was made. Wonder what's in store for next week!

This may be a silly question, but I'm guessing a reincarnation is possible in the highly fictitious world of LU?

Benjamin Button
08-04-2018, 01:12 PM
They've done so much to build the big man this season. Was surprised by that. It was an.awesome cinema though. Only thing Im not big on was how they killed off Big Ryck. When I saw him and the Mack's old footage at the show's start, I was excited to see if Big Ryck was returning. He was a classic character. I'm digging Mil and Mac's fued but have mixed feelings on that particular segment.

Cult Icon
08-04-2018, 01:20 PM
Big Ryck has been dead since between season one and season two; he was killed off in the brief comic book spin offs LU was putting out. This was just Catrina retrieving the skull to prove a point to The Mack, as well as a subtle nod to long time fans. And apparently Vibora was written off because the guy who played him got hurt somewhere along the way and couldn't continue. It's likely he'll return in some form (he is a reptile, so perhaps his head grows back?) but because he was hurt they had to write him off for a time.

I have an interesting theory of who may be replacing him next week. Before the season it came out that LU had trademarked the name Jeremiah Snake. That sounds like a spin off name for Jeremiah Crane and, I don't know if anyone noticed, but there was suspiciously a coffin in Kobra Moon's lair when Mundo and Taya invaded it. I wonder if maybe Kobra Moon has the same powers to bring back peeps from the dead like Catrina and Vampiro do, and that to replace Vibora they're going to bring back Crane and rechristen him Jeremiah Snake.

Benjamin Button
08-04-2018, 01:24 PM
Shit man when say it like that, the skull was genuis.

The coffin is interesting. Very subtle too..love the idea.

Maybe Vibora will return with 2 heads.

mizfan
08-04-2018, 06:57 PM
Totally interested in that idea for Jeremiah Crane... he's not my favorite guy but he's been at his best in LU, and that's a really interesting way to resurrect him. Very much down with Vibora growing that head back!!

Rob S.
08-04-2018, 08:17 PM
It sucks that Draven got hurt. Vibora was really having an impressive season both in-ring and out. His match with Mundo was one of the highlights of the season IMO. I totally missed the casket in the final scene, so it would make perfect sense if it were Crane/Snake. He'd be a perfect fit for the Reptile Tribe. I'm looking forward to The Mack/Mil confrontation. That should be a really good Hoss battle. Love when two Hosses just beat the crap out of each other. Not sure what it was, but that Main Event fell flat. The ending had ZERO heat behind it at all, despite the Temple's #1 guy being beaten. I expected more of a Believer reaction. Hopefully we can move on from Cage soon and onto someone else.

As for Azteca saying he's holding onto the GOTG until Ultima Lucha, I think we can all agree that is NEVER going to happen, especially with Marty lurking. He's such a good lurker. Good episode, not great. Opening match with PJ and Daga was the highlight until the end reel of "Indiana Mundo and the Temple of Venom"

mizfan
08-04-2018, 08:24 PM
Handicap matches are usually lame as a rule. It made sense for Penta to refuse a partner, but that doesn't mean it was necessarily compelling.

Yeah, Azteca sure as heck ain't challenging at UL4!

Benjamin Button
08-04-2018, 11:39 PM
2 things about the handicap match

1. Had a real potential character moment for Cuerno when he did his business like a cold hearted mercenary and walked away.

2. Pentegon rocked the temple. It's refreshing to see a champion that over. Seems special when he's out there. That's how you want it to feel.

mizfan
08-04-2018, 11:45 PM
I agree about Cuerno, especially him walking away at the end. It wasn't much of a match in the traditional sense but it did it's job, and I can dig that as far as it goes. I think there was probably a way to make it more compelling though. The trios match was my favorite of the night, though the Rabbit Tribe don't seem to have gotten much benefit out of becoming murderers.

Benjamin Button
08-05-2018, 04:08 AM
I agree that if you're gonna kill Mascarita Sagrada, there should be a better pay off

mizfan
08-05-2018, 09:25 PM
I assume eventually Killer Kross will come in and yell at them for not being better, but I did expect more of an immediate shift aside from London switching from white clothes to black.

205 Clive
08-06-2018, 04:50 AM
The main event from just a good match point of view wasn't as good as the Gift of the Gods match from the precious week, but like you have all said, it makes sense. You have to sew some seeds before something blooms I suppose.

Crane/Snake is an interesting idea.

Oliver
08-06-2018, 08:54 AM
I thought the show last week was a bit...I don't know, Raw for my liking?

Maybe that's an odd statement, but to try and contextualise it, I mean the opening match followed by promo just built a match for next week - if that was the start of Raw, it would have been a DQ finish and then an eight man main event, but regardless it's a real Raw booking tactic. Then an in ring promo which LU hardly ever does without it at least having consequence, but this was just Azteca Jr chatting. The trios title match was OK, but very pedestrian for me. And then the main event was the two rivals for a title facing off in tag team action - the only difference being that they made it a handicap match - and then the challenger beating the champion.

Very strange episode, for me, and not one I particularly enjoyed.

Rob S.
08-06-2018, 08:58 AM
I thought the show last week was a bit...I don't know, Raw for my liking?

Maybe that's an odd statement, but to try and contextualise it, I mean the opening match followed by promo just built a match for next week - if that was the start of Raw, it would have been a DQ finish and then an eight man main event, but regardless it's a real Raw booking tactic. Then an in ring promo which LU hardly ever does without it at least having consequence, but this was just Azteca Jr chatting. The trios title match was OK, but very pedestrian for me. And then the main event was the two rivals for a title facing off in tag team action - the only difference being that they made it a handicap match - and then the challenger beating the champion.

Very strange episode, for me, and not one I particularly enjoyed.

Yeah I can totally agree with that take on it Oli. All in all not one of their best this season. Hopefully this week we'll bounce back.

Benjamin Button
08-09-2018, 04:59 AM
This one was a bit too weird/goofy for me. Wasn't digging the cartoon noises. Didn't understand why Johnny is concerned for Aerostar. Johnny's built a character on being selfish up to this point.

They can do better than a show that feels like a spoof.

Still,

Liked what's going on with Johnny and the weird underling with the doll..

..Always love watching Jack Evans, too.

Liked Azteca's cross legged roll up.


Still not a good feel for this show. Doesn't do much for Matunza when Loony Toon noises are playing.

Also, I've said I like the Icehouse Temple and I do, but would like to see them put it over more to build mystique.

Rob S.
08-09-2018, 09:59 AM
It wasn't a fantastic episode yet again. Still have no idea what's going on with the Rabbit Tribe, who now seem to be down to London and Saltador with the White Rabbit not yet being in the mix very much. Interesting note, Mala Suerte/Mr. Cisco has now been killed TWICE on Lucha Underground. I enjoyed the brief Azteca/Mariposa match, but I expected more to it considering the beginning scene. It sort of all amounted to nothing.

The episode was saved slightly by the Atomicos match between the Reptiles and WWU. Adding Crane/Snake to the mix seems to have worked out well, and I'd like to see some continual changes from Jeremiah to help with the transition. Adding Aerostar to the mix worked in terms of the story between he and Drago, as well as further pushing Ricky down the WWU ladder. I didn't have as much of a problem with Johnny using his wish for Aero as some did, as the WWU has been drifting more and more towards the Technicos side of things. Drago screaming his freedom was a feel-good moment, as was the proposal after. Solid Main Event, lackluster opening matches.

Cult Icon
08-09-2018, 11:14 AM
The sound effects aren't a new thing; LU used them in season three during that hilarious Famous B/Mascarita Sagrada match where it was really well received. I have no problem with it here either because Mala Suerte, even after Paul London became this darker character a few weeks ago, has never been a serious character and it was fitting with his shtick. It was also clear, to me at least, that London was probably ordered by the White Rabbit to sacrifice Suerte given London's brief mention of Kross in the promo, so on the whole everything in that segment made sense. The only issue I had was that I think it's time for Matanza to move on to something bigger. He's sacrificed enough lower card workers, now it's time to move him onto another challenge.

After that I thought everything was fine to good. The tag match was solid (if not long enough to really stand out) and Azteca/Mariposa was good but way too short; the way the crowd was reacting I almost wonder if they had a long, really good match and LU had to cut it down for time. The main event and everything that came with it was tremendous. The Crane and Aerostar reveals both made sense and both made the match significantly more exciting. Johnny using the wish to help Aerostar also made perfect sense and I'm not sure why people are confused by that; not only have Worldwide Underground become more anti-heroish than villanous but how the hell does anyone think Johnny was able to convince Aerostar to team with them? It was obvious (though not explicitly spelled out) that Aerostar took part because he knew/was promised Johnny would free Drago afterwards and Johnny was fine with that because the whole point was more about avoiding becoming like Drago (a save to the Reptile Tribe) than the wish itself (especially when he didn't need a wish to get what he really wanted; Taya's hand in marriage).

So yeah, I have no qualms with that at all and on top of that the match was really strong. I think LU's problem right now is that while the shows are still (at least for me) very much enjoyable, there hasn't been THE episode yet where it all comes together. There have been good episodes and a lot of good wrestling, but only the Three Way to the Grave show felt super strong from top to bottom. I think they're in need of taking a step up from enjoyable to can't miss and they haven't quite figured it out yet with this season.

Benjamin Button
08-10-2018, 04:38 AM
Definitely not coming down on the show. After all, last night when I saw it uploaded on my Amazon after a 12.5 hr day of work, I was fucking stoked. Usually it comes up on Thursdays. I do love the Drago-Aerostar friendship reunion. Mentioned other things I really liked. Even the goofy stuff entertained me but would rather have done without it.

Maybe it was too much in one show. Maybe, it's that I'm not seeing the big picture this season as I usually do. I think they're revamping too, because a lot of things ended at Ultimo Lucha Tres. I like that Pentagon is engaging in not so serious feuds as they are entertaining and he's looking really strong. Just think there should be a bit of a bigger conflict in the background more. I think I am seeing a little of it with Vampiro not wanting to see him play to the crowd.

For this show, I don't think rabbit sounds for the darker rabbit tribe falls under the same fun as Mascarita/Famous B. Just seemed kind of cheap and took away from Matunza's story. The fact that the monster has rid Lucha underground twice of Cisco, however, was nice and not lost on me.

I guess I wasn't buying Cobra honoring her word to release Drago and wasn't completely sold on Johnny freeing Drago.

This has in some ways been Mundo's season. Though I hated seeing Vibora go, Johnny cutting his head off is one of the all-time classic moments of Lucha Underground. I suppose we'll see our first Lucha Underground wedding with Taya and Johnny.

mizfan
08-10-2018, 11:56 AM
I do agree that the cartoon noises were out of place and I hope they don't happen again. Mixed feelings on Mundo giving his wish anyway, but it makes sense to a point I suppose. Loved the proposal, that was great.

I think people are sleeping on how fun that tag match was though. I get a special feeling off of XO, and Ivelisse and Evans are killing it. Even Ryan, who I don't really care for, did a fine job.

And yes, let it not be ignored that Matanza has now in some form or another killed the entire original Crew.

Oliver
08-13-2018, 08:42 PM
Not sure where this really belongs, but:

https://i2.wp.com/mlw.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/laparkpent.jpg?resize=1024%2C576&ssl=1

mizfan
08-13-2018, 08:55 PM
Sounds damn cool to me!!

LWO4Life
08-13-2018, 10:03 PM
Not sure where this really belongs, but:

https://i2.wp.com/mlw.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/laparkpent.jpg?resize=1024%2C576&ssl=1

I feel like I'm in love with wrestling again!

Rob S.
08-17-2018, 02:05 PM
So let's talk this week's episode. Once again the Rabbit Tribe seems to be headed bye byes as this week Saltador was dispatched to Matanza. I'm really not sure at all where we're going here with this storyline. Definitely going with the long-play on this one.

Killshot pulled double duty and had a really fine match with El Dragon Azteca Jr. but then decides to go full heel in the Trios match costing his team the belts. Can't say I'm fond of the Reptiles holding the belts, but we'll see where it goes from here. Crane/Snake seems to be annoying me more and more each week. But damn Kobra Moon has some abs.

Then we had a full on brawl between Cage and Pentagon that spilled out everywhere and continued well past the credits. Next week is Last Man or Machine Standing. This SHOULD be pretty good and I feel like we need another home run to get things back on track again.

So, my one pet peeve of this week is the announced "Haunted House" match between The Mack and Mil Muertes. Is it just me or does this seem like some bad timing in terms of where this was placed? It's happening the first week of September, in a Halloween themed match, where The Mack ends the segment with "Trick or Treat Mother F...." Am I missing something here or is this just poorly planned out in terms of timing?

mizfan
08-17-2018, 02:32 PM
I feel like we'll get a new Rabbit Tribe with London, Kross, and whoever that was in his weird little cage. We know the Rabbits are part of the 7 tribes thing, so they'll have to continue in some form for sure.

Killshot/Azteca was my favorite match of the episode by a mile, I thought they really killed it. One of Azteca's best singles matches so far, for sure. Killshot going heel makes a lot of sense, as you have Killshot/Havoc to work through and now of course Mack/Muertes, which has got me REALLY excited. I agree with Rob in that it seems like it's a couple months early but I'm not hung up on it, I think there's very little chance that match won't absolutely rule.

I absolutely agree that Crane has seemed more and more annoying lately. I liked him as much as I ever did in season 3 because he mostly seemed to keep his most obnoxious habits to a minimum, but now I guess he's comfortably fully reveling in his ridiculous Callihan-ness. He's becoming a real drag to watch for me, and I find myself wishing he stayed dead and someone else came back. I know some people love the guy but he's just getting under my skin lately, and not in a good way.

I feel like Pentagon and Cage have an AWESOME match in them just waiting to come out, but they haven't quite made it there yet. The brawl was a very positive sign though, and if they can carry that energy over to the match I think it could be that home run you mentioned.

Benjamin Button
08-18-2018, 03:58 AM
One of the best shows of the season.

Lucha Underground and Dragon Azteca are making a real case for him this season. I'm starting to think he will hold the belt till Ultima Lucha after all and, ya know, up till this season he was just a water melon head to me but I'm buying his fighting spirit. There's a weird nod to Bret Hart in him trying to do cool finishes and good/ different matches with different competitors.

Not against the Reptile Tribe winning the belts. I don't like them but they are heels after all. I think the alliance has stepped it up a notch this season. Great Texas Tornado match. But the real story was the heel turn. Thought it was one of the best ones I've seen in a long time.

Gotta say though, don't forget about the beautiful Aerostar/Drago segment! Aerostar could really challenge hard for those trios titles.

My new favorite line is "trick or treat, motherfucker!"

The brawl was very cool. I've actually found the fued between Cage and Pentegon very good. I think they just need to go back and give a little more reason to Cage's initial attack. I know he just wants to gun down the champion, but show something that explains that even. That's a minor complaint though. Good fued. Pentegon is looking like a champion this season.

Nodqfan
08-18-2018, 08:39 AM
I enjoyed the Drago/Aerostar segment from this week, it was some nice character development between the two.

Cult Icon
08-18-2018, 11:43 AM
I guess I'm alone with liking this new Reptile Tribe. There's definitely off putting aspects about Sami Callihan's personality but I really enjoy the dude in the ring and that trios match largely worked because he was in there taking the technicos offense and helping Kobra Moon on her big spots. That shit wasn't going to be as good with someone like Vibora; I know he's improved and he looked great with Johnny Mundo, but we need to remember that was still one match against Johnny Mundo. There's no guarantee he would've been as reliable for Kobra Moon on those tricky double teams or that he would've gelled as well with Mack and Killshot, two guys Crane has a ton of experience with. Throw in Daga, who's excellent but not particularly flashy so he doesn't get the recognition and this is a much more exciting team than before, even if Drago and Pindar were pretty fun separately. I think they'll make good champs and at least now we can move on with the Killshot/Mack/Havoc angle, which was going to get tiring if they just kept being dysfunctional champs for the whole season.

I wouldn't worry about the Haunted House match either. It seems more like it's just playing off Mil Muertes being a darker character and the Antonio Cueto stuff was just them getting some humor out of the whole thing, not to mention Willie Mack quoting Busta Rhymes from Halloween: Resurrection. Plus I'm told the match is pretty great so there's that too.

Benjamin Button
08-18-2018, 06:28 PM
Cult, I will say I appreciate the Reptiles this season. I like that I don't like them. They have a heel effect on me and that's a good, rare thing. I think some of the over the top stuff Jeremiah does would be better left for cinema, but the tag moves were fine and the green venom good for his character. I think this could set up good challenges from Aerostar and Drago. Maybe, Moon set Drago free because she feels she can have him back anytime she will?

comfortablynumb
08-18-2018, 08:31 PM
I definitely get why having Crane be there to help Kobra Moon is important after these past two weeks. She's really rough in the ring. Her punches are almost as bad as Shane McMahon's. It seems weird for Crane to be a zombie sidekick role (for now) though.

mizfan
08-20-2018, 03:47 PM
Agree that the Aerostar/Drago segment was excellent.

Cult Icon
08-23-2018, 12:39 PM
Last night was the best episode of the season, easily. Loved Big Willie vs. Mil. Loved the Catrina-Melissa confrontation. Tolerated Strong-Aerostar (boy that was not a good match up). Loved the bridal shower/Ricky killing off the annoying agent. And holy shit that main event was something else. Finally the breakout show LU needed for this season. Strong stuff.

Rob S.
08-23-2018, 12:49 PM
I haven't seen anything past the Haunted House match, but honestly I really didn't care for it. It was basically just a mix of a cage match and one of those Impact matches with weapons. And to be honest, I know that LU tends to push the envelope, but I thought they may have pushed it a bit too far last night with Mil attacking The Mack with a knife. It seemed just too much.

I'll catch the rest later, but for me, I was turned off by the first part.

comfortablynumb
08-23-2018, 07:10 PM
The ending to the Mil-Mack match was odd just because Mack didn’t even touch the table on the flatliner. Mil took the whole thing and bounced right back up.

Rob S.
08-24-2018, 11:28 AM
Hot Take:

Pentagon Dark is the wrong choice for Lucha Underground Champion.

Controversial? Sure is, but let me explain. While Pentagon Dark is over, his mystique comes from being a luchador that's outside the norm. He's trained to be basically a death-dealer. He breaks arms and takes people out, but is that what a Champion of a promotion should do? I feel as though he'd be better utilized WITHOUT the strap around his waist, and basically not have to change at all. It's almost as if the belt hinders his character, because he's supposed to be someone who doesn't really care about anything. Win, lose, draw, it doesn't matter to Pentagon Dark as long as he's able to inflict some punishment. Well, putting the belt around his waist means he DOES care about something, because he's fighting to keep a ceremonial belt, which in my opinion sort of humbles a man that shouldn't be humbled.

Who'd be better? Fenix, Son of Havoc, Johnny Mundo, and if you want a wild card go with Marty because despite him being crazy he craves acceptance, and the belt would be the ultimate for him. Don't get me wrong, I love Pentagon Dark, but I think Season 4 has struggled basically because he's holding the belt.

Benjamin Button
08-25-2018, 03:24 AM
I loved the show, too. Big Mil fan , therefore seeing him take it to the Mac was much fun. The knife seemed fake so it actually bothered me less than all the glass they go through. And having Mil use it was appropriate. Not a good thing for kids but much of the violence isn't something I'd put in front of any impressionable mind.

Really good stuff brewing with Catrina and Melisssa. Also wonder where this denying of the kiss of death will lead.

Johnny's stuff was great and just a perfect, seemless transition from Pentegon's fued with Cage to Johnny moving in to the title scene. Warms my heart to see a transition like that.

Fucking can't stand Jake Strong, but Aero and Drago are a fun combo.

Now, Rob, you make a good argument but I love Pentegon as champion. Have you watched his match with Cage yet? If so does it move your opinion of his title reign either way?

I think his character has always wanted to be successful. Hes always wanted respect. One of his first promos he talked about that. He just doesnt go about it the right way because hes a miscevious motherfucker at heart.

At the end of the day, I like seeing the Title built around the fightenist most over star on the roster. And that's him. I like that they started off with a simple but fun fued. I only wish they'd done a touch more to start the fued off better but in the end it led to a really good storied fight.

Also, just having someone "cool" goes a long way. Pentegon is that. He's able to attract a wide range of fans. I haven't talked to anyone who doesn't like him, but I'm sure there's people out there

mizfan
08-26-2018, 01:00 PM
I mostly liked Mil/Mack, though I think my expectations were a little too high. Both guys are great with crowd brawling but putting the cage around them didn't lend to that very well. If they get to go again, I'd love to see a Falls Count Anywhere or something. I did think the knife was a little much, but they just used it to blade Mack basically so it wasn't too bad I thought. I did think it was weird there was a fucking ax in the cage, and that nobody used it. Like, don't put it in there if you're not gonna use it!

I'm with Benny on Swagger. The fans may be willing to chant "Strong" but to me he seems lifeless and a poor fit. Poor Aerostar, I was actually rooting for him for once and he got squashed like he was the Brooklyn Brawler.

I see where Rob is coming from with Pentagon. I've enjoyed his title reign but it also has felt a little... off, somehow? I'm not sure what it is. I don't think it's necessarily that he's the wrong champion. I think he needs something stronger to fight back against, he's won so dominantly for the most part. He's knocked off most challengers in about 10 minutes and I haven't felt like he's been in real danger yet. He needs someone to come and really shake him up. I thought Cage could have done that, and maybe he did a little, but I still didn't get that sense of danger. Their match was good stuff, though I really could have done without the unprotected chairshots. It's 2018, for god's sake. But Pentagon having to basically shatter Cage in a bunch of different ways to win was spot on.

Benjamin Button
08-30-2018, 01:55 PM
How about that wedding? Good week for Matunza. Wouldn't mind seeing him sacrifice Taiya to the gods with Johnny having to win her back...Good week for Ricky Mundo.

Like Antonio but can't help but think that were seeing some Dario in disguise. He subtly set the tables for Matunza to use as weapons.

Benjamin Button
08-30-2018, 01:57 PM
How about that wedding? Good week for Matanza. Wouldn't mind seeing him sacrifice Taya to the gods with Johnny having to win her back...Good week for Ricky Mundo.

Like Antonio but can't help but think that were seeing some Dario in disguise. He subtly set the tables for Matanza to use as weapons.

Cult Icon
08-30-2018, 02:48 PM
Absolutely loved the wedding. It will go down (for me) alongside the all out brawl from season three as one of the great non matches LU has produced. Famous B has never been better, the Joey (Mercury) Wrestling appearance was cool, the vows between Johnny and Taya were both humorous and touching and Matanza wrecking the whole thing was really well done. That suplex he did to Famous B in the wheelchair will play on the LU series finale highlight reel whenever we (sadly) get there. I'm generally not a fan of wedding segments and I was worried they'd put too much emphasis on Ricky Mundo ruining it, but by passing off the carnage to Matanza and NOT breaking Johnny and Taya up they managed to make it all work and give the Worldwide Underground two people to go after in the second half of the season. I was never not entertained by it all.

Show wasn't just the wedding either. The Drago-Jake Strong match wasn't anything special but I thought Strong at least showed something he hadn't previously (and he remains incredibly over with the Temple) and the Jack Evans-XO Lishus match was tremendous until the interference occurred. If they had left out Ivelisse and Joey Ryan I think it would've been a classic. Alas still a really good match. Feels like LU is hitting their stride again.

comfortablynumb
08-30-2018, 07:19 PM
I was hoping Matanza would sacrifice Taya after he hit his move in the center ring. Would have been a great holy shit moment for those at home. Wrestling weddings can go south quick but this was entertaining throughout.

mizfan
09-04-2018, 08:44 PM
Had the chance to talk to PJ Black for a bit over King of Trios weekend, which was a lot of fun! He was saying there was actually more wedding footage, extra bumps and such that he was sad that they cut. He also complained jokingly about Ricky Mundo's doll getting more air time than a lot of wrestlers, haha. He was also really optimistic about season 5, which is nice to hear even if I doubt he has any special inside knowledge. Was really cool to talk to the guy though, super nice and really open. I always liked him ok but that experience will probably make me think even better of him going forward.

Rob S.
09-06-2018, 09:21 AM
OMG, that opening 10 minutes of this week's episode was INSANE! Chick fight, death, resurrection, time travel, and an insane amount of plot development in such a short time. Just wow!

Outside of that though, the episode fell into it's formula as of late. The opening match was another short sacrifice, although Joey Wrestling looked great. It seems the middle match has been the best of the show lately, as Killshot and BBS was surprisingly very good. I like the whole "mask" angle with Killshot. Interested to see where that goes.

Again, we get Pentagon taking out somebody, this time the out of his depths Hernandez, who seems to have lost a step or two as of late. It wasn't bad by any stretch, but he was never any real threat. I am very interested in a Pentagon/Cuerno match though. That should be very, very good.

Oliver
09-06-2018, 11:47 AM
I happy clapped at my favourite wrestler breaking the limbs of my least favourite wrestler, so there that is.

I've been a bit behind recently, but caught up on a couple of episodes this week. I loved the wedding. I thought they really went in on the ridiculous nature of it all, and enjoyed it as a massively goofy thing. And I'm super fascinated to see where the Joey Ryan/XO/Ivelisse stuff goes.

Mystic
09-07-2018, 12:25 AM
Big week for the Mil-Catrina story. That this story is 4 years old and still thriving is part of why I love LU.

My favorite part of episode 13, by far, was Pentagon mocking the Hernandez "swag".

Benjamin Button
09-07-2018, 04:25 AM
Gonna watch the first segment again....takes a hell of a person to get all that. Great moment for Mil.. I suppose if Catrina is dead she's where he wants her and the cycle can continue but it seems as if maybe even a short time Mil will be on his own. Should be interesting to see where this road leads him.

No rubble, no Catrina but the fact it always comes back to Mil and Fenix is brilliant enough to make the segment.

Good usage of Joey Wrestling and really liked that Johnny didn't wrestle Pentegon. Was thinking they'd wrestle and Matunza would interfere and we'd find ourselves in some kind of future triple threat ...love that Lucha Underground takes it another direction...

Great promo from Pentegon. He feels like a superstar this season. Interested to see where this Cuerno thing is going and it was really cool to see them go back to Cuerno.

Great season for Shane Strickland. Love his heel attitude..real throw back to when ppl turned heel and the announcers would say "he has a new attitude"

Mystic
09-07-2018, 11:49 AM
Ha. I was just going to comment on how much I liked your edited portion and those ideas, but I came back and you have deleted them.

mizfan
09-07-2018, 07:27 PM
All the opening stuff was a lot of fun, just as hyped by Rob. Definitely think Catrina will be back, that shimmer in Fenix's eyes tells me her spirit is in there somewhere. A hell of a thing if Catrina's soul ends up in the body of the only man she's actually loved, in her own dark way. Also wondering if there will be some kind of monkey's paw style twist with Fenix being brought back... he definitely didn't seem the same, did he? And let's not forget how Puma was changed when Vampiro brought him back from death, and others as well.

I did think Killshot/Steve was better than expected, but I didn't see it as being that good. Steve looked like a chump for a lot of it, and I found myself wondering why the match went as long as it did, though I enjoyed some of the late offense he suddenly pulled out, and that Killshot targeted the injured leg consistently. Killshot/Havoc, mask vs. mask? I could get behind that. Killshot having a good season indeed. I want to know what happened to Dante Fox!

I'll agree that Hernandez didn't exactly feel like a threat to the title, but I didn't think he looked poorly at all in the match, in fact I quite enjoyed it. He's still a ridiculously strong dude who can also do some aerial, and I can dig that. More so than the match though, I agree that Penta's promo was top notch, probably the best bit of mic work he's done all season and very much the attitude I love to see from him in this role. I'm not as high on Cuerno as some but I think they'll have something very fun together.


I happy clapped at my favourite wrestler breaking the limbs of my least favourite wrestler, so there that is.

Who is this in reference to? Penta has broken so many arms recently!

Cult Icon
09-07-2018, 07:50 PM
I'm pretty sure Catrina is actually dead guys. She was rumored to not even be on season four at all so she could transition into acting, and it was frankly a bit of a surprise when she did return. We'll see but I don't think we'll be seeing her this season, if ever again; at best it won't be until the season ending montage. I do think we'll be getting a Dark Fenix though, and we'll be finding out quickly because one of the big matches next week is him, Drago and Aerostar (the true hero of Lucha Underground!) taking on Kobra Moon, Daga and Jeremiah Snake.

mizfan
09-07-2018, 07:52 PM
That is a serious bummer, if so.

Mystic
09-07-2018, 08:07 PM
If she is gone, however, having it happen at the hands of Mil is super intriguing for where he goes from here.

Oliver
09-08-2018, 06:17 PM
That one's exclusively Hernandez, mizfan. He's in a club of one down there, and that's even with the WWE version of Bobby Lashley existing.


Yeah, I think Fenix is coming back some how.

There's a big part of me that thinks Catrina is going to die later in the series now that she's mortal again.

Man, I've never felt happier to be spot on on something. I thought I'd posted this before.

mizfan
09-10-2018, 01:49 PM
I will say, if Catrina really is dead, it could have hardly happened in a better way, with Mil putting her in the ground for daring to leave him, and then her death being tied inextricably to Fenix.

I'm honestly surprised so many people that I've talked to are down on Hernandez. He's never been my #1 favorite but I dig him for what he is and didn't think he looked bad at all against Penta.

Rob S.
09-13-2018, 10:03 AM
Some thoughts on this week's episode, which I thought was pretty strong overall. Really enjoyed pretty much everything this week.

Ivelisse/Azteca was really good. I do wish Ivi would stay healthy, so I definitely hope she's in a good run here where she's going to have a good run. I absolutely love the idea of Ivi/XO Lishus and Joey Ryan as a team. That's going to be a great trio to go against the Reptile Tribe. Really looking forward to that.

Cuerno/Mil was a flat out hoss fight, and there's always room for a hoss fight. Interesting to see that Mil seems to have lost a bit of control without Catrina by his side. He's more animalistic, more aggressive. He and Cuerno beat the living crap out of each other, so the Three Way next week with Pentagon Dark should be really good. I'm actually hoping Pentagon doesn't beat them clean as that would seem like a real disservice to both of them.

SuperFriends vs. Reptile Tribe was good as well. Dark Fenix is quite the turn and the visual of drool literally streaming out of his face was really nice. However, I do feel as though LU doesn't really trust Kobra Moon to be able to carry her own weight in the ring. She did next to nothing in this match, so it was basically Jeremiah Snake (which is still a really stupid name) and Daga. The turn at the end by Fenix was nice, if not predictable. Really interested to see where this one goes, as the fans will hopefully rally behind Fenix and bring him back. Good stuff.

Marty vs. Azteca next week is a big YESSS! Wondering what else he wants though.

Oh, and I unfortunately saw a spoiler that makes me very unhappy. Like VERY VERY UNHAPPY!

Rob S.
09-18-2018, 02:26 PM
So my cable provider messed up again and I've already seen this week's episode. It's quite honestly one of the better episodes of the season, with most of the episode consisting of in-ring action. There's a really solid opening match between Fenix and Aerostar, a Gift of the Gods match between Marty The Moth and El Dragon Azteca Jr. and a Triple Threat between Mil Muertes, King Cuerno and Pentagon Dark, which if I had one complaint about it's that I wish it went longer. There's more going on, which would be a bit of a spoiler since it hasn't technically aired yet, but I thoroughly enjoyed the entire episode. One thing's for sure, in the Lucha Temple money talks.

The ending is a hell of a shocker, so strap in folks, it's a damn twisty ride.

mizfan
09-18-2018, 08:29 PM
I'm damn excited!!

Was super impressed on the last episode by just how different Fenix was with his vibe and physicality. That kind of thing goes a long way with me. Very curious to see how he'll get snapped back to himself. Can't see him as a long term heel but can't decide if he'll be better off getting returned to his former state or staying "darker" and perhaps aligning at some point with Pentagon or, perhaps even better, feuding with him!.

Oliver
09-19-2018, 06:56 AM
The Dark Lucha Bros led by another pissed of ninja skeleton would give me so much joy.

I'm a bit concerned about Penta going into this week. Cuerno and Mil have their own beef going on, for sure, but I can certainly see a situation where The Damned Numbers Game costs him the title.

I'd be quite into Marty take GotG from Dragon. I like Marty, plus I think they need to put some jeopardy around the whole ULIV cash in for a while just to progress a story. There's only so much I can watch Dragon defend that title with the result feeling like it's a given, you know. Marty feels like the first time his reign has been at risk, somehow.

Interested to see where the finishing shot of Marty wanting 'something else' from Antonio goes - I wonder if that ties to his Dragon bout or something bigger picture.

Mystic
09-19-2018, 10:18 AM
Be stupid to take the belt off Penta. He is babyface special right now. The believers love blood and brawls more than [almost] anything. Almost, because, when Pentagon shows up, just to stand above the fans, the fans turn AWAY from the brawl just to look at him standing and chant "Cero Miedo" at him.

My brother and I were talking about angles that would be awesome but would never happen. This was when Catrina was alive by the spirit of Fenix. We were talking about Pentagon slowly building a friendship with Catrina, almost a first friendship for him, because something felt familiar about her, only to eventually realize it's because she's alive by the spirit of his brother.

Now, I'm with mizfan. As I said on Twitter. That could be something DAMN compelling about a Dark Fenix while Pentagon is off playing to the fans. We won't see that, I'm guessing, but it's fun to imagine.

In reality, I see Penta holding the belt to the end of the season then losing it. Maybe he loses it sooner. I don't know. But, if I were booking, he would hold it through the season. I would love to see the shape of title reigns changed and right now they have a babyface who reminds me of watching Hogan in WWF. He just comes out there and it's a damn party.

Would love to see Marty (or anyone) take the GotG belt. Dragon is too bitch for my interest. Marty/Pentagon could be sick. Might bring out the ugly in Pentagon again.

Benjamin Button
09-19-2018, 12:17 PM
Loved the boxing fight with Mil and Cuerno. Just when you think you've seen it all in wrestling, Lucha underground comes up with something new. Could not have picked 2 better luchadores. Mil needed something new since Catrina left. One day I was saying Mil's straight right is my favorite in his moveset.

I still can't t stand seeing Jake Strong

Rob S.
09-19-2018, 12:57 PM
Mil's right hand might be the best in the business right now. It's such a stiff shot and it connects every time.

mizfan
09-19-2018, 01:34 PM
That was actually my main beef with that Mil/Cuerno segment. Mil's shots looked like absolute murder, Cuerno didn't have anything on him, but they were being portrayed as equals for the sake of it. Would have rather seen Cuerno's head fly off into the crowd (or rather that he used his cunning to try a different tactic).

I like Azteca, though I can see why he'd be seen as too vanilla by some. On the surface they are trying to Bret Hart him, having him take on every challenger and find ways to win. That could work. But I also notice some subtle stuff happening... the fans sometimes preferring his opponents over him may be getting under his skin. Little things he does, complain to the ref, take a shortcut. Horn in on Fenix's girl when his body wasn't cold yet. Notice he was hanging around Melissa again the moment Fenix pushed her down? Might be something going on there.

But any scenario with Marty winning GOTG is great with me, the dude is awesome. Like the idea of him forcing Pentagon down an ugly path. I want the Marty that took Fenix and Killshot to hell and back to come gunning for the man with zero fear. Azteca trying desperately to win the next iteration of GOTG before UL4 could be an interesting story too.

Definitely don't think Penta is in danger of losing the belt next week. I think Mystic is on point, the earliest he might lose is UL4, and even that's no guarantee. If he does lose it, it's going to have to be a big deal, someone just absolutely ripping it out of his hands. If they can find the right story for it, I would be ok if he lost and regained it, but he shouldn't be leaving the main event any time soon.

I do think there's a chance we see the inverse of what Mystic suggested... if Penta does form a relationship with Fenix, I think it will only be because he's got this dark thing inside of him now, whether it's a piece of Catrina's spirit or just some darkness he brought back from the other side. Unless they state it specifically, I will absolutely assume it's the former that's influencing him! Lots that can be done with that character/story.

Last week we found out Jake Strong speaks as passionately as he wrestles, which is to say not at all. :)

Mystic
09-19-2018, 01:53 PM
Definitely don't think Penta is in danger of losing the belt next week. I think Mystic is on point, the earliest he might lose is UL4, and even that's no guarantee. If he does lose it, it's going to have to be a big deal, someone just absolutely ripping it out of his hands. If they can find the right story for it, I would be ok if he lost and regained it, but he shouldn't be leaving the main event any time soon.



Diggin' this suggestion. It's going to be fun to watch this all play out.

Strong is only the second wrestler brought in by LU that has them flirting with some of TNA's worst behavior for me. The first was Alberto. All the history, all the nuanced ways of telling story, and Alberto comes in and grabs a mic to "make an Impact" by going off on WWE. LU is better than this. Jack just stands and talks; stands and does. It feels like he's just as much not in the Temple as he is in it. I don't mind him being there, but the greater the push the more they tempt a direction that isn't good for LU, unless they really change how it's going. If I were booking him, he'd be run out of the Temple by Famous B!

Really hoping Amazon is earlier with my episode this week!

I'm content to sit back and watch where Fenix goes. I'm as hyped about him as I've ever been. Funnily, I was trying to figure out who Penta looked like once (and thus Fenix too) and I thought about the squid on old Mario games who puff out their mouths to breathe. Welp, the angle last night had Fenix doing that exactly and it really brought home my assumptiion about the Lucha Bros.

49

Lord, I love LU!

Rob S.
09-19-2018, 02:20 PM
Man, having already seen this week I so want to tell you all everything, but I would never do that. It's almost here. THEN we talk.

mizfan
09-19-2018, 04:59 PM
VERY hyped, and yes Amazon needs to be on the ball this week with the release. Last week it wasn't out til Monday, I think, which is pretty bad for something I'm paying good money for!

Benjamin Button
09-20-2018, 04:14 AM
Good intense week. Fenix is looking amazing. Love the gargel idea. I laughed out loud when he started pounding Aerostar after the match. Love the running pick up. I think this is much better than where I thought it was going....ya know him possessed with Catrina and falling into a relationship with Mil and doing the kiss of death to Mil's enemies.

Fenix/Azteca has legs, can't wait to where it goes.

Liked the triple threat..it did become about isolating the weaker Cuerno away from Mil. Not a bad little story.

Never been a fan of cashing in money in the bank, just cheapens world titles but Marty did make it work. Got a feeling Pentegon will hurt him though.

comfortablynumb
09-20-2018, 11:15 AM
Very crazy episode. Good for Marty. He's worked hard over the past few years and always made his storylines more engaging. And now Pentagon is back on the chase!

Rob S.
09-20-2018, 12:38 PM
So there's a whole lot to unpack in this episode that Cult and I were talking about privately. First, you have Marty coming back and getting revenge on Pentagon for eliminating him in Aztec Warfare AND breaking his arm by defeating him with his own move. On top of that, he defeated Azteca, who was already hampered by Fenix's attack, which is interesting considering Fenix was Marty's rival FOR Melissa Santos, who now seems to be stuck in the middle of all of this. Not only is Pentagon back on the hunt, but Azteca now has to see if he can RECLAIM the GOTG title and still go on to Main Event UL4.

Let's also not forget the debut of one Chelsea Green, as Marty's new.....something. It appears that she'll be called Reklusa, based on some of Cult's research on LU trademarks and the fact that she's been tweeting with a spider emoji. Hmmm, anybody remember the spiders from Season 3 popping up everywhere. Sexy wasn't crazy, it was Marty's tribe, just not Marty.

So the era of The Moth has begun with Marty winning two titles in one night (hence the SECOND payoff to Papa Cueto), Pentagon and Azteca are on the hunt once again, Fenix has lost his mind, and Melissa is stuck smack dab in the middle of all of this. Remember, Melissa ALSO has history with Pentagon, as he once tried to break her arm as well, but was saved by......Fenix. So yeah, this is one crazy ass bit of storytelling going on that just keeps adding layers upon layers, and IT ALL WORKS!

And another great thing, is all that played out IN THE RING!

EDIT: Damn, almost forgot the impending arrival of the White Rabbit (Killer Kross) and Senor Bunny, who I'm guessing is Mascarita Sagrada.

Oliver
09-20-2018, 01:06 PM
I thought that was the best episode of LU for...a long time. I don't know since when. But it was excellent, told a self-contained story, had some great in ring action (although I thought the three way was a little underwhelming) and paid off a bunch of stuff. Finally felt like old LU again, where everything is connected.

Worst case now is they do anything major with Jake Strong. Otherwise, they've got a whole load of stuff to unpack from that episode alone, let alone everything before it.

How many episodes are left in this season? I'm wary of Googling as I already found out that Pentagon was a 'former' champion from Googling him and reading the opening lines of his Wikipedia page. I guess spoilers are now out there, which I hadn't seen before now, so I think I'll be being a bit careful from her on.

Was the mystery woman Laurel Van Ness?

Rob S.
09-20-2018, 01:07 PM
I thought that was the best episode of LU for...a long time. I don't know since when. But it was excellent, told a self-contained story, had some great in ring action (although I thought the three way was a little underwhelming) and paid off a bunch of stuff. Finally felt like old LU again, where everything is connected.

Worst case now is they do anything major with Jake Strong. Otherwise, they've got a whole load of stuff to unpack from that episode alone, let alone everything before it.

How many episodes are left in this season? I'm wary of Googling as I already found out that Pentagon was a 'former two time' champion from Googling him and reading the opening lines of his Wikipedia page. I guess spoilers are now out there, which I hadn't seen before now, so I think I'll be being a bit careful from her on.

Was the mystery woman Laurel Van Ness?

Yes Oli, LVN/Chelsea Green. Same person. I think we're about halfway in the season, not totally sure.

Oliver
09-21-2018, 02:13 AM
Cheers Rob.

The only thing I've been toing and froing on from the episode is Marty's cash in - I loved GotG because it wasn't MitB, so turning it into MitB is a bit disappointing. I thought the reasoning was going to be that he'd told Antonio that when he won he would cash in that night - so sticking with the week in advance thing. Kind of a shame to throw it on it's head now.

But at least it's gone in an interesting direction. As I say, as long as they keep Strong away from any title picture or important thing, I think they'll be OK.

Oh, and I can't remember if it was here or not that I had a discussion on it, but I do wish they'd calm down on the mask ripping stuff.

Benjamin Button
09-21-2018, 03:10 AM
I really share 2 of your sentiments Oliver. I loved how the Dario character layed out GOTG. "I like to promote my matches." You probably like the idea of Lucha Underground separating itself from WWE. I agree with this, but I think someone taking advantage of a wounded man every year to win a prestigious title cheapens the idea of what it means to winning it.

Money in the bank works well as a one off...like Edge's win was good, but every year making a thing out of winning it that way takes away from the story of what it takes to be the best.

Marty's win worked if it's a one time thing, and makes sense with old man Cueto taking the bribe. However, if Antonio continues supporting these kinds of changes, I'll ressurect Dario myself.

I don't like that Pentegon lost the title...I'm not mad at the way it happened but there's still much they could do with their number 1 attraction before this happened. I just hope he and Marty have some long term legs.

The 2nd thing I agree with is, man, I hate Jake Strong in the temple.

The mask ripping is a good insult. Loved it with Mil and Fenix and even Penta and Cage was ok. I think it's done more than warranted; and maybe this past week was an example. But I think it was part of the sell given Pentegon the image of a wounded warrior that Marty look advantage of.

Also, mask ripping on Pentegon does unsettle me some. I think because he's got such a mystique about him...don't want to see his face. But it's not a deal breaker.

Rob S.
09-21-2018, 08:47 AM
See I have no problem with the cash-in happening last night. One thing that has always ruled above anything else in the Temple is that Money Talks! From the opening of Season 1 when Johnny Mundo won the $10K, to it being used by him for his own advancement, it's ALWAYS been about the money. Another thing that is for sure is that the Cueto's do what they want, when they want, so Antonio doing it once doesn't mean he'll do it again. If Azteca gets the belt back, or whoever it is, if it doesn't benefit Cueto, or he doesn't like who wins it, then the immediate cash-in won't happen. Don't get too worked up about that being a thing now, because it's probably not, or it is, but whatever the case it will be to the benefit of the story and of course the Cueto family

Cult Icon
09-21-2018, 12:27 PM
Completely with Trips. It be one thing if Antonio just decided to scrap the rule on a whim. In reality the only reason he did it was because Marty paid him off; both things are classic heel moves and make perfect sense given their characters. Plus this isn't the first time it happened. Remember, Dario broke the rule himself with Pentagon at Ultima Lucha Tres (yes Pentagon came to him a week before, but Dario still didn't have time to promote the match and himself said he was breaking the rules when announcing it) and that wound up being a hell of a moment itself. I don't know if LU keeps this in place or not and either way I don't care; I only care if things make sense and tell a good story. To date that's what both moves did so I can't really complain.

mizfan
09-21-2018, 01:27 PM
Damn Oliver, don't share those spoilers in here!! Hoping that's just a rumor and not a fact...

Loved the episode, so many threads interconnecting. I have only two minor quibbles, the first being I do wish some of these matches were getting a little more time. This was a lot to fit in an hour, and while I loved how well it all flowed, I did think the matches were shortchanged a bit, particularly the triple threat match. Still really enjoyed it, but I think there's a next level to hit in ring with some of these bouts that is getting passed over.

The second is an agreement with others hoping that this GOTG switch is a one time only thing based on Marty's bribe, and not a permanent switch for the title. Loved it as a moment, hoping it stands alone.

I loved Pentagon but this was a great way to not only introduce more danger to Penta but actually put him on the backfoot in a meaningful way for the first time in a while. I do think he should and will get the title back directly but I want a real bloodbath on the way. Marty is as mad as ever but at Mariposa's urging he is now showing a new degree of cunning, and with a new ally at his side he's sure to be incredibly dangerous.

Seriously though, so many great layers to this. If I recall this is a 22 episode season and that was episode 15, so we only have a couple months left. I think the season is just getting better and better though, can't wait to see where it goes next!

Rob S.
09-21-2018, 01:36 PM
From what I've read, the matches actually ARE longer, but have to get edited for TV. I too wish the Triple Threat had more time, but I have a feeling it went considerably longer live.

mizfan
09-21-2018, 01:54 PM
Damn, that's rather disappointing too. They certainly do a good job editing it, as I wouldn't have guessed off the top of my head! Maybe someday we'll get the director's cut.

Rob S.
09-27-2018, 10:59 AM
This week's episode was a little bit of everything honestly.

Looks like we've seen the last of Jack Evans for a while, as he was the latest sacrifice. I'm curious as to what the plan, if any, is for all the sacrifices made by Matanza.

The Trios title match was fine, nothing special, but it was more of an introduction to the new Rabbit Tribe with El Bunny and the White Rabbit. Looking forward to seeing Kross in the ring.

I will say that the Drago/Aerostar vs. Strong match was pretty good. Strong looked the best I've seen him since entering the Temple, so perhaps he's finally settling into his new role in a very different place than he's used to.

The four way #1 contender match was good, but again I wish matches of these magnitude just had more time. Muertes vs. Cuerno vs. Azteca vs. Pentagon should in any form get more than 8-10 minutes. That's a match that should go 20-25 easy, and perhaps it did, but when we only get such a short period on TV it kind of feels like a missed opportunity. Especially considering it was slightly overbooked with the Fenix interference and the Mack interference. While I'm a fan of both, do that business elsewhere and let those four tear the house down.

LU is still great viewing, but except for a few episodes this season has been a little bit of a miss to this point. There have been way too many random disposals of talent by way of sacrifice, or ankle break, or arm break, etc. It's left me a bit unfulfilled.

comfortablynumb
09-27-2018, 05:04 PM
I was also very disappointed with the lack of time the main event got. Seems like Strong has been featured as much as Pentagon Dark this season, but I'm not really seeing him being a major player this season. I guess this is all for Season 5.

Oliver
09-28-2018, 07:44 AM
Ben spoke about LU separating itself from WWE up there and it got me thinking - there's a slice of me that thinks LU is now being put together by somebody who has watched WWE a bit and gone 'oh, so that's how a wrestling show works!' and then taken it away to make Lucha Underground season 4.

I don't know if that's a fair, or unfair, criticism or not, really.

But there are a lot of elements of it there, from the short matches that lean heavily on interference, use of people like Strong because...they're big, I guess? The whole vibe of the show just seems a few degrees off from what it was before now, and I don't know how I feel about it. The last three weeks have been a mixture of being great, from storyline perspectives, to weak, from an in ring perspective.

Like, Rob makes the point there about time for Mil vs Cuerno vs Azteca vs Pentagon, and I feel like last season that would have had 20/25 minutes to headline a show, at the expense of something like the Rabbit Tribe thing which could have just been accomplished in a backstage bit where they put people on notice.

Maybe I'm just being grumpy recently - I have been generally grumpy recently about everything, not just this - but I feel like LU really needs something to get back to what it once was, and really connect back to me. I'm still in love with Pentagon, I still want to see where some of this stuff goes (Fenix vs Azteca at ULIV is going to light that shit up, for example) but...some of it just isn't interesting and engaging. I kind of don't care about whether or not Drago and Aerostar get their ankles broken because what difference does it make, for example. I should care, because Drago's a frigging human embodiment of an actual dragon and Aerostar is a time and space traveller like Doctor Who, and that's damned interesting and I loved them for the last three seasons. But this season they just don't feel important - and on top of that they're being shown to be less important than someone like Strong who, for some reason, the people in the Temple react to like he's a hero in the way that a TNA audience would react to, like, Chris Masters showing up or something.

And yeah, I'm playing the Jake Strong card again.

Thing is, I always thought Swagger was quite underrated and underutilised in his WWE run, especially post-WHC stuff, because his WHC run was really good, for a start, and I enjoyed him a lot in WWECW, plus he's a flipping behemoth. But he just doesn't belong in the temple. And it's not like when they signed ADR and had him be the focus of various things, because at least he could easily be portrayed as Lucha Royalty even though he's dogshit at everything. Strong is just big and slow and lumbering and very, very 'WWE', for want of a better way to put it. There are plenty of big guys on the LU roster - Muertes, Cage, Vibora even - who could be in his role as just a dominant big guy but have also shown they can work at the pace of those around them. Even in that nunchuk match, it felt like the pace was happening around Strong rather than him being part of it - and I enjoyed the match for what it was.

I don't know, I'm complaining. I miss feeling like every Friday after I've watched the show on a Thursday I was desperate to come on here and discuss whether Dario being shot in the guts was real or fake, whether Vampiro was going to be 'Ian' on his meds or 'Dark Evil Pope Master' off his meds.

Hang on, also, at the end of ULIII didn't Vampiro have a new dark master? Did we discuss that already? Cult, did you tell me the answer to that one before? I have a vague recollection of it, I feel like Kross was mentioned as being the guy, but clearly that's not happened. Or was Pentagon now Vampiro's master? Man, I'm so confused, they've not even touched that this series I don't think.

mizfan
09-28-2018, 02:15 PM
At the end of season 3 it was revealed that Vampiro has his own secret master, and that they were setting Pentagon up for a fall of some kind. It hasn't been touched on since but that could be intentional? It's clear Vampiro is not guiding Pentagon at this time, which is in line with season 3 as Penta was clearly surprised that Vampiro helped him at the end. I think it will come to something but I'm am a little disappointed it hasn't been more of a talking point. Striker screaming at Vampiro to get away from him when he cost Puma his career was such a great moment, but they went back to being commentary buddies like nothing happened.

Overall I think I've enjoyed season 4 more than some of you, but I do share some of your concerns. I'm not sure I'd call it WWE-esque but I'll certainly agree that for me Jack Swagger is a drag, even if he gets the sing-a-long effect with his tit slapping. The handicap match was better than it had any right to be thanks to some really nice and impressive spots (convinced that Aerostar time traveled when he was dropped off the balcony to avoid the impact), but I couldn't shake a gross feeling while watching it, because by all logic either Drago or Aerostar should be a match for anyone in the Temple, yet they get ultimately punked out by this guy who wrestles like he'd rather be anywhere else. Co-sign the short main event, it's hard for me to imagine the matches are edited to a quarter of their actual length so I can only assume the full matches are also being shorted on time. Sad to see Jack Evans go as well, it'd be nice to think these sacrifices will come back at some point but not holding my breath. Still think the end game is Matanza loses and is himself raptured, not sure who will take him down though. And what happened to that police captain anyway? Did she lose interest when Dario seemingly bit the dust? Where is Agent Winter and the mysterious Lord? Definitely feels like a few pieces missing, the more I think about it.

On the plus side though, how flipping good is Melissa Santos?? She's been really brilliant this season. I think the Fenix stuff is what I'm most interested in right now, alongside Marty being champion and how Pentagon will pursue him. Mack/Mil in a deathmatch should be awesome and even better than their cage match, since they both excel at Temple-wide brawling. New Rabbit Tribe looks fun, and we've got Havoc/Killshot surely coming up too, perhaps with masks up for grabs. Lots to look forward to so don't think I'm just complaining at all, I still love LU, I just wish we were seeing a bit more of the old flavor.

Oliver
09-28-2018, 06:24 PM
You know, I'd clean forgotten the Havoc/Killshot stuff. Seems like weeks since they did anything with that!

Mystic
09-29-2018, 12:57 PM
Jack died.

Jake should have.

Benjamin Button
09-29-2018, 10:26 PM
I have enjoyed season 4 thoroughly. There's been iconic cinema. I don't think that it's anywhere near WWE myself. WWE doesn't give me the characters and story Lucha Underground does. I do share with Oliver some concerns about storylines dissapearing. I'm a patient man though. Ideally, for me Pentegon would have had more fueds like his and Cage, held the title all of the season, and we'd start seeing cinema involving Vampiro and Vamp's master or something deeper and more storied. However, I think Marty's win was fine the way they did it. He's always pushing his enemies to their wits end.

Fenix and Mundo have done unforgettable things this season. Mil bringing Catrina to her end will live forever for me.

My own concerns is Jake Strong and I think the ice house is fine but would love to hear the announcers sell it like the old temple. I think it needs to become a character and be given reason. Vamp and Striker are good, but there's something a bit off there I think from previous seasons.Vamo was deeper in the story before. If he and Pentegon have something going, I haven't seen a hint of it since the first few episodes when Vamp criticised Pentegon for building a relationship with the believers. Would like a little more there to show a greater continuity. Still, these as of now are small complaints. I've enjoyed the season. It may be one of my favorites.

I do miss Dario more than a lot, but Antonio has been good. And the fact the same guy can do both these roles should be appreciated.

I think I'd like to see the characters building more to longer term stories?

Liking this new rabbit tribe.

There's a lot to hate about Jake Strong, his size alone Subtracts from the other talent...seeing him right before Muertes took away from Mil...It's like Alice in Wonderland after eating whatever the hell it is that makes her grow...it's awkward and just doesn't belong...He's shown nothing interesting..and he's no more than a wwe reject...it hurts to see Lucha underground with all it's character development just feed so much to this guy

Cult Icon
09-30-2018, 12:23 PM
There's a lot to hate about Jake Strong, his size alone Subtracts from the other talent...seeing him right before Muertes took away from Mil...It's like Alice in Wonderland after eating whatever the hell it is that makes her grow...it's awkward and just doesn't belong...He's shown nothing interesting..and he's no more than a wwe reject...

This is where I'm beginning to have a massive problem with a lot of hate towards Jake Strong. It be one thing if people were hating on him because he sucks but it appears everyone's problem with him isn't his skill, it's the fact that he's a former WWE guy who's come in and gotten pushed hard. And I'm going to be honest...that feels like a whole lot of gate keeper like shit to me.

Like why is being a former WWE guy mean Jake Strong can't be in LU? Johnny Mundo was a former WWE guy through and through when he joined LU and he was pushed over several luchadores from the very beginning. Why is being a big guy mean Jake Strong can't be in LU? Brian Cage was bigger than everyone else, he squashed everyone else when he came in (remember how he dominated Aerostar, Angelico and Argenis the same way Strong has dominated most people) and no one batted an eye. Why is being a non luchador mean Jake Strong can't be in LU? Less we forget, the first several weeks of season one were headlined by The Crew vs. Johnny Mundo and Prince Puma, a feud that featured five Americans, one Cuban and two former WWE guys (one of whom is nowhere near the worker Jake Strong is) and the champion for season one was an American from Kentucky. Somehow all of that was okay, but now Jake Strong comes in and he's killing LU because he had the gall to make a living that isn't deemed acceptable the first half of his career. Why is it not okay for him, but it was okay for Mundo, or even someone like Mark Jindrak, who was strictly a WCW/WWE guy, until he got released and had to go to Mexico, where he became a star?

At the end of the day when it comes to new wrestlers debuting on any show I'm watching I don't care where you come from or where you've been; I only care about a) how good you are, b) if you can get over and c) how you're used. I know Jake Strong is a good worker; I watched him long enough in WWE to know he's a really skilled in ring guy who didn't get over because he wasn't great on the mic. No he isn't Johnny Mundo or Cage, but the gulf in skill isn't that deep that I can sit here and say he sucks. He's very good. I know Jake Strong is over; he constantly gets huge reactions whenever he comes out into the Temple and has occasionally even won the crowd over despite being a heel. In an age where so many people struggle to get reactions, he gets one. His problem in LU, until this week, was how he was used. None of Strong's matches have been bad but none were really that good outside of his debut trios match; they were pretty much just squashes where he broke ankles and dominated the action. I get LU was trying to build him up but it wasn't interesting, especially compared to Matanza who has been literally wiping people off the face of the earth. This week they finally got it right. He not only looked great with Aerostar and Drago, but he managed to find the perfect balance of being an ass kicker who could still be vulnerable thanks to Aerostar and Drago's creativity. It have been one thing if he just decimated them, but Aerostar and Drago got a ton of time to do their thing and I didn't think they came out looking less than they did before (neither did Aerostar, who thought it was one of his best matches ever). The only reason you could not like the match in my estimation is if you just didn't like a former WWE guy beating two luchadores. And that's just silly because, again, that sort of shit has happened numerous times before and I didn't hear a single thing.

There's definitely several, legitimate issues with LU. The main event matches are shorter and the backstage scenes have lessened, probably because they had a lesser budget this year (everyone appears to have forgotten this); less money means fewer scenes which means more matches (notice how there's more 4 match episodes of LU this season than in the past) which means less time and as good as LU creative is, even that's a tough hill to conquer. And while I think they've improved upon how much interference is in matches compared to last season, that is definitely something that still happens a bit more than it should. Those things do need to be looked at before season five. Jake Strong doesn't. As long as he's booked well and having matches like he had this past week, I frankly don't give a shit where he wrestled beforehand. He's a good worker, the crowd reacts to him, and he's far from the first big strong American to do so in a lucha libre setting. If you don't care for him just because you don't think he's good, that's fine and I respect that. But it appears he's being rejected less for that and more for his WWE past and that's not fair. We didn't treat Mundo, PJ Black and the numerous other WWE cast offs on the show like that; why are we doing that with Strong?

Mystic
09-30-2018, 02:39 PM
I just don't think he's a good fit with LU. I always make the comparison to Alberto. He's so...plain, as a person and as the performer that LU has booked him to be. It would almost be like bringing Pentagon JR. into a very rigid promotion where people just go by their actual names. Pentagon wouldn't be a good fit and Jake is not, to me, a good fit in LU. I also don't like his monster push right now. I don't like his breaking peoples' bones all the time when that is someone else's thing. If folks like him in LU, I'm not mad at them, but I have a mind of my own, too. Some gates should be monitored. It's what keeps places from becoming TNA, where you just big up every former WWE guy for being a former WWE guy. I don't even think Jake is the end of the world. My biggest problem is it's almost like he's cut and pasted into the Temple, rather than being an actual *part* and *fit* in LU.

Benjamin Button
09-30-2018, 03:00 PM
When I say he's a WWE reject, I mean he has no merit to receive this push. It's just a small point in a greater argument...Mundo and Cage were weaved in and are miles more interesting. He was uninteresting in WWE and hasn't been interesting in Lucha Underground. There's quite a height difference between him and Cage as well. I once heard them say they try to get people around the same height...I thought that was brilliant for this intergender fight world as it does give more believability to all their athletes.

But here Jake comes in and looks like a boring giant. He's no more interesting here than WWE. WWE let him go and he's getting the red carpet here. Mundo worked himself into a character. He found who he was in this world.
Cage didn't have a past but was made interesting with great cinema.

Big Ryck was made interesting with his relationship with the crew and how they added to the gritty nature of the Temple. Also, being a big guy works better for a guy like Ryck...his style makes him seem big rather than making everyone else seem small

I haven't yet seen anyone making the point that you have to be a luchadore to be a Lucha underground star

Jake is brought in and pushed to the moon based off what? Just being a former WWE guy? that does feel TNAish to me...if you dig him, great...I think the reasons listed above are reasons people don't...it sucks to see your least favorite WWE guy get pushed to the top of your favorite wrestling show....I would say I think everyone was kind of going over their favorite and least favorite things about season 4...I mentioned many things I liked, but Jake is the worst for me.

Oliver
10-01-2018, 05:41 AM
The thing for me isn't where Strong has wrestled before - sorry if it came off like that - but simply because he's not delivering for me. Sure, he had a good match against two of the best guys in the show where plunder can cover up his lack of speed and ability to work with the guys he's against. But has he done anything else even half decent in this run? Cult, you yourself say he hasn't, so what is deserving the crowd reaction (which he got since almost day one) or the level of push he's getting.

He needs more battling victories against the likes of Drago and Aerostar, and less one sided squashes. Plus, he needs to pick the pace of his work up if he's going to get on the same page of his opponents. Otherwise, I think there are countless other people who LU have spent time working on up until now who should be in that spot.

Thing is, the obvious next step he'll probably take is winning the now vacant GotG. Because nobody's beating him in a standard match, so that just leaves the multi-man one for him to navigate.

The problem isn't that Strong is ex-WWE - the problem is Strong himself (to date). And as I say, I thought he was underrated in WWE, I thought he deserved a top level push that he never got post-WHC run, and I thought he could go. I don't know what's different in the temple, but I'm not seeing the same guy I did then, or even in his late WWE stuff when he was having under the radar good-great matches with the likes of Zayn, Rusev, Big E, or tags with Cesaro where he almost always looked good.

I like him, but nothing in the Temple is making me like him now. But hey, maybe he'll bring me round somehow. I hope he does.

And man, I'd forgotten the amount of interference finishes there were in season 3. I hated that, especially the quantity. Urgh.

I think what I'm missing most in this series, though, is those stories that used to be told and be fascinating. The only thing that's been really interesting from a story perspective has been the Fenix stuff. The Rabbit Tribe stuff I just...don't care for. I want my dark masters, The Crew taking Ryck's eye with a cigar, Mil and Fenix being literal wrestling death and life against each other, the unlikely trio, the series long 'Dario Cueto is running an underground fight club and the police are investigating' stuff, Fox being a captured special agent seeking revenge against Killshot for escaping capture, Vampiro turning Puma Dark, Ivelisse and Catrina getting built up over a season and then paid off - I feel like that's what's gone missing right now. Like, some of the things in LU have been set up over seasons of work, and just not been progressed at all this time around. Even little things, like the Taya documentary from season 3 - there's nothing that's even really 'fun' yet still long-term storytelling.

I don't know, something's off, and Ricky laughing manically with his doll in the crowd while the WWU get destroyed during a wedding doesn't quite fix that.

I mean, the most obvious thing to have done with this series would have been some kind of 'whodunnit' around Dario being shot. That's not even been referenced. You had Agent Winter actually do the shooting - not mentioned.

Rob S.
10-01-2018, 08:38 AM
Some could argue also that Swagger got the reaction he's gotten since Day One unfairly BECAUSE he was a former WWE guy.

mizfan
10-01-2018, 02:09 PM
I'll just say for myself that I find Strong listless and dull, and I do think his matches haven't been particularly good. He's not stinking up the joint exactly but the matches just don't stir up any interest in me. His WWE status doesn't even come into it for me, for years I defended TNA for trying to make the best out of supposed rejects (with better results sometimes than others, certainly), and Lucha Underground has incorporated tons for former WWE guys in ways that made them more interesting than they were previously. I just don't think it's worked well with Swagger and I continue to think of his chants as the sing-a-long effect. I fully admit I could be wrong about that and if others are loving Jake's work in the Temple then that's cool for them, but for me I'm just not enjoying his stuff.

LK3185
10-01-2018, 02:34 PM
Seeing all this talk about Strong made me think of Roddy Strong who is excellent.... Then i realized it was about Jack Swagger.....Carry on fellas.

Rob S.
10-04-2018, 10:35 AM
With only 4 weeks until Ultima Lucha Cuatro (which I always thought was spelled Quatro because I never took Spanish), this week's episode ramped up storylines a bit to get us set for the big event.

The opening Trios match with Ivelisse/XO and Joey Ryan vs. The Rabbit Tribe was pretty good. Decent action in the match and I really like the vibe Killer Kross is bringing to the Tribe now, making them more vicious instead of goofy like they were before. The use of the Mandible Claw is also a nice touch.

The Killshot/Havoc match wasn't as good as I'd hoped, but with the announcement afterwards of a rematch at UL, perhaps they're saving the best for that, and we'll get to see someone's face as we go Mask vs. Mask. My guess is that Killshot loses his mask in this one, but I could be wrong.

The Main Event was straight fire. Damn Mariposa is great in the ring. It seems like every time she gets an extended chance to go it really burns the house down. I know Melissa has been around a long time, but she's just so damn good. The constant burying of Marty under chairs was fun to watch. Going to be a good Main Event at UL.

So here's what we have so far for Ultima Lucha Cuatro

DEATH MATCH
Mil Muertes vs. The Mack

2 OUT OF 3 FALLS
Dragon Azteca Jr. vs. Dark Fenix

MASK VS. MASK
Killshot vs. Son of Havoc

CERO MIEDO MATCH
Pentagon Dark vs. Marty The Moth Martinez for the UL Title.

mizfan
10-04-2018, 03:32 PM
I'm watching this week's episode tonight so gonna try to not see spoilers, but taking a quick glance at the bottom of Rob's post, a Cero Miedo match between Pentagon and Marty has the potential to absolutely RULE.

Benjamin Button
10-05-2018, 04:14 AM
The Marty/Mariposa match seemed sortof rushed; however the announcers did a great job of presenting the sibling rilvary as something that's happened before in their warped lives. Great match just thought some weeks of build up wouldn't have hurt.

My wife speaks Spanish and told me that Pentegon was using some really harsh language...good!

Like the Rabbit tribe and that mandible claw! Lol seems like he's got some sort of mental problem the way he uses the White glove...Nice!

Liked the Killshot/Son of Havoc match.... Killshot has had a hell of a season and I like Son of Havoc. But I would not want to see the Lucha underground Title on either.... thinking these mid card guys need some reward to battle for but don't know what or if it should be....

Rob S.
10-05-2018, 08:27 AM
I'm confused as to why you think the Marty/Mariposa thing came out of nowhere. Ever since they introduced her there has always been quite a bit of tension between the two, as well as a least a couple of physical altercations. It wasn't rushed at all.

Oliver
10-05-2018, 11:13 AM
I was a lot more into the episode this week than I have been lately. Really felt like they were pushing on a lot of stories all at once, and it certainly felt like they were getting a bit more time to progress things. It's funny how a week like this can come along and remind me why I love the show.

Benjamin Button
10-05-2018, 11:42 AM
Not saying it came out of nowhere as much would've liked to see some build after the match was announced...it was good enough a match to warrant a little more promotion. Maybe even a point of the tension coming to a full break up a couple of weeks before the match would be good for me ..just a minor thing, but I think some build and just a bit more drama before their first big fight would be good for both of them.

mizfan
10-05-2018, 02:06 PM
I can agree to a point about the Marty/Mariposa thing getting a little more build. In past seasons we probably would have gotten a vignette somewhere to put a little extra sauce on it, but as Cult mentioned I guess a lower vignette budget nixed some of those ideas, sadly. I think it still came off extremely well and played off the relationship they’ve had since the beginning. I also think it was the best match LU has done in several weeks, I actually really thought it was great.

I’ll co-sign Benny’s wife, I know enough Spanish to know Penta was throwing out a lot of “motherfucker” at Marty!

Overall I liked Kross’s debut, though I think the face he was pulling during the mandible claw was pushing against the line of being too ridiculous. Might want to dial it back just a smidge. Dude plays the rapid personality shifts really well though.

I also think Killshot/Havoc should be quite good at UL4. Gotta figure we’re gonna see Shane Strickland’s face, Strickland is hot as himself but Matt Cross is somehow much more boring than Son of Havoc. Also REALLY hoping we get some word about Dante Fox, I remember someone said he was in the trailer so tell me what’s up Lucha!!

Cult Icon
10-05-2018, 05:56 PM
I'm with Trips. The relationship between Marty and Mariposa has been bizarre ever since Mariposa came along and just got more bizarre when Marty attacked her in the middle of season three. They've very much been presented as a duo that will do awful things to each other to motivate the other (let's not forget Mariposa helped shave Marty's hair at Ultima Lucha Tres) and that, combined with Mariposa motivating Marty to step up, was more than enough to set the stage for the match. Frankly I'm not sure a scene or Marty and Reklusa beating Mariposa down one week to set up the match would've really added much more than they already had. So it happening somewhat out of nowhere worked and even it hadn't the match was so good it doesn't really matter. Marty has gotten so good at this point that it's difficult for me to believe no one other than LU and AAA wants to use him. He is so unbelievably good as a character and a storyteller it's not even funny.

mizfan
10-05-2018, 06:00 PM
Strongly co-sign that Marty has become a huge standout, he was great as a character from early on but his wrestling has become stupendous as well. Definitely hope to see him get as many bookings as he wants.

Benjamin Button
10-11-2018, 12:50 PM
Really loved Mil and Fenix as a team...great light vs darkness match...it's hard to know where that double pin goes, but I'm hoping it goes to just more dominance for that heel team....

Marty is feeling like a superstar.

mizfan
10-11-2018, 02:26 PM
Excited to watch this tonight. :) Penta/Reklusa should be good for sure and knowing Mack/Azteca vs. Fenix/Mil is on the card is doubly exciting. :) Feels like Season 4 is ending on a super strong note. Hate to even bring it up but do we know for sure about season 5 yet?

Cult Icon
10-11-2018, 11:50 PM
It feels like LU has turned some sort of corner ever since Marty won the title. They had a tiny bit of an off week after that (though I'm still of the opinion that the handicap numchuk match was super good) but besides that it's been straight fire; that Mariposa-Marty match was off the charts good and this week was even better between the tag match and Pentagon-Reklusa, which was at worst a notch below Marty-Mariposa (and may have been better depending on your mileage). Even the stuff like Taya-Matanza and Ricky Mundo's squash of Famous B did a good job to set things up going forward. I was not one of the people who agreed with Trips when he mentioned how maybe LU was better off with Pentagon chasing for the title instead of having it, but after these last few weeks I think he may very well have been right. Pentagon looks refreshed, Marty has been off the charts, Reklusa has been one hell of an addition (a damn shame she's probably going to WWE, even though the only one reporting it is an unreliable source) and the Fenix angle (which was the best thing LU had prior to all this) is gaining more steam. Oh, and Ultima Lucha IV looks killer. It's been a rougher season compared to the last three (though still enjoyable for the most part) but LU seems to finally be getting hot at the right time. Thank goodness!

mizfan
10-12-2018, 01:38 PM
Ultima Lucha IV looks killer. It's been a rougher season compared to the last three (though still enjoyable for the most part) but LU seems to finally be getting hot at the right time.

Super strongly agree with this, UL4 looks absolutely awesome and every episode starting with where Marty won the belt has been really good. If we can just get some movement on the big threads which have been dormant this season, like the big evil conspiracy that hangs over everything and the Penta/Vampiro relationship as well, I'll be over the moon with the final stretch of this season.

comfortablynumb
10-17-2018, 08:26 PM
Jake Strong showing his acting skills are the same they were in WWE. I actually don’t mind his push but that was some terrible acting. He just looks so unnatural.

Great to see Dante Fox return. Crowd kind of turned on Strong when he fought Fox at the end of the battle royal. Half the show was booked to push Strong. Shocked Johnny tapped.

Oliver
10-19-2018, 06:46 PM
So, just for a fun theory - I think Strong has the gauntlet. It's the only way this works for me. He's being shown as overpowered but with no back story as to why, but we know Cuerno doesn't have the gauntlet any more despite stealing it at UL3. Maybe Strong bought it off him or something?

Cult Icon
10-19-2018, 07:36 PM
Cuerno told Catrina in episode two he gave the gauntlet to someone who sent it back in time. I suppose it could be Strong but it was strongly applied Aerostar was the guy Cuerno was talking about. There's also still a scene from the trailer we haven't seen yet where Cuerno, Aerostar and El Dragon Azteca Jr. are discussing what to do with the gauntlet and another scene that shows Johnny Mundo with it. None of this makes it impossible for Strong to have it but it seems unlikely.

Having said that, there is definitely something more with Strong. The way he acted towards the end of that Cueto meeting, first with telling Cueto this was now his Temple and then the change in his voice, is telling. Maybe the former is him just being a cocky heel but given all the forces looking to control LU within the show it's not something that can just be dismissed. And the voice change (and it was noticeable how much deeper and demonic his voice got) is definitely a sign something is going on. I have three potential guesses; Strong has been possessed much like Cage was in season three (by the gauntlet or something else), he's working with a still alive Dario Cueto to take back the Temple, he's a member of the Lord and Agent Winter's group, he's Vampiro's sensei or (and this would be my preferred one) he's the Lord himself. It's definitely one of those scenarios, I just don't know which it is. I take it we'll know before the end of the season though because there's another scene from the trailer we haven't seen yet that shows him screaming, with blood on his chest in the place he does his "Strong" chant.

https://i2.wp.com/www.thecubsfan.com/cmll/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/luseason4_3067.png?resize=768%2C432

Oliver
10-20-2018, 03:12 PM
Man, Cult you made me go back to the trailer and a) I'd forgotten the Aerostat/Cuerno/Azteca gauntlet discussion, ii) I'd forgotten the bit where Munro has the gauntlet, and 3) look at this and tell me Strong isn't hitting himself with the gauntlet:

59

If this is how it works out, all I can do is eat a small serving of humble pie. LU have got me to the point where I'm discussing the person I'm least interested in on the show potentially turning into the person I'm most interested in on the show, at least from a character perspective. Plus there's now, what, four weeks to pay off the gauntlet travelling back through time and ending up back in the present day with Strong via Mundo.

My guess on that is something like Mundo getting it in order to gain a leg up on Matanza, who we suspect is off anyway (correct? NJPW stuff?) so taking him out in the sacrifice match courtesy of gauntlet power and extreme parkour, then it somehow falling to Strong. But equally I do want it to turn out that Strong has been gauntlet powered all series and as a result has incredibly powerful arms so can break ankles.

comfortablynumb
10-20-2018, 06:38 PM
If all that's true, you'd have to figure Strong vs. Pentagon is the goal for Ultima Lucha 5? Bone breaker match.

Cult Icon
10-20-2018, 09:25 PM
If Antonio is going to keep the "cash in Gift of the Gods at any time" rule then it's feasible that it could happen at Ultima Lucha IV, although I'm not sold on Strong winning the Gift of the Gods next week. We'll see. Regardless, a Pentagon-Strong feud is definitely going to happen at some point, it's just a question of when.

That's an excellent catch Ollie; I noticed there was blood on Strong's shirt in that clip but not that he had the gauntlet. I thought, after we didn't get the scene early, that Mundo getting the gauntlet would be in the final montage of the season, but that definitely gives me pause. I'll offer a slightly different possibility then Strong taking the glove from Mundo though; what if instead he takes it from Matanza? As you pointed out he is seemingly out the door at LU. I can say he's been granted a release, but even with the ROH deal he could come back and has indicated he may unless he gets a WWE deal (which he won't; WWE thinks he's too small and lacks charisma). Regardless, he's going to be written off for now and the blood on Strong during that scene indicates that he's taking the gauntlet in a deadly way, something that wouldn't fit Mundo (who is sticking around for as long as LU is around). So I'll suggest that while Mundo gets the glove this upcoming week to combat Matanza, Matanza will then take the glove from Mundo after their match, followed by Strong taking it and killing Matanza afterwards.

You gotta love the way LU has handled this either way. Keep in mind that the gauntlet was sent back in time by Aerostar and we know it's going to wind up in the hands of Mundo and Strong. Answer this; who came to Mundo's aid earlier this year against the Reptile Tribe, and who did Mundo do a favor for by freeing Drago afterwards? Also, who did Strong just stop feuding with? The answer is Aerostar. There are no coincidences in Lucha Underground; I've seen enough of the show to know that. I'd bet that Mundo knows how to find the gauntlet because Aerostar, returning the favor Mundo did for him, gave him the location. The Strong connection I'm not as sure about but that Aerostar-Mundo thing makes too much sense. And if that is the case, then LU has been playing some brilliant 4D Chess all along.

Rob S.
10-21-2018, 11:04 AM
While I agree that there is one hell of a long game being played here, I hope it's not rushed in the last 3 episodes. However, this thing going full circle all the way from the end of last season is pretty damn cool.

Jake Strong is definitely the Lord of the Limo, I'm totally sure of that at this point, or at the very least he is NOW. It's very possible Strong was "taken" by the Lord after seeing his amazing strength and fortitude. Damn, like what previously said, caring about a guy I don't want to care about. CURSE YOU LUCHA UNDERGROUND!!

With that being said, I have some major problems with the last episode.

1.) The Gift of the Gods medallions just randomly being given out willy-nilly. Come on now, does anyone believe Big Bad Steve would ever win a Medallion? He hasn't won a match yet. The Medallions need to be EARNED and I feel like they sort of ran out of time there to make that work.
2.) Dante Fox returning in a throwaway fashion with no explanation or storyline and thrown into the GOTG Battle Royal. Again, how does he earn a Medallion when he hasn't even been around all season. That return needed to be bigger than it was considering the way he went out.
3.) Um, just because Sammy Guevara beat up Famous B doesn't mean he's not still under contract. Duh!

mizfan
10-22-2018, 02:55 PM
The idea that Strong is the Lord is the best one I've heard yet. I still really don't care for Strong or his push but at the very least it would make things fall better into place, and I wouldn't feel so pissed about him rolling over guys who obviously should be able to take him on evenly like Drago and Aerostar.

Agree with Rob on those three points, particularly the first two. On a similar note, Ivelisse/XO/Sammy getting a trios title match despite all three of them being multiple time losers in recent matches seemed a bit off as well. I guess time is limited but still.

At the time of watching I also found the Jake Strong filled episode very tiresome, but now that we've talked over some theories I don't feel quite so annoyed about that.

Oliver
10-23-2018, 08:44 AM
I just wish they'd shown us some of the working for that, at least a couple more hints via backstage promo or similar, to lead us as viewers down that line. Even now, we're speculating as to what it might actually mean in the context of the whole show.

It's possible that, if this is the long game they've been playing, LU4's biggest mistake will be not laying that groundwork in the earlier episodes. I might, just might, have been able to accept Strong and the way he has been presented had we known all along that there was a mythical reason for him being all powerful.

Cult Icon
10-23-2018, 12:25 PM
I don't think they were actually capable of doing that with the budget they had. Unfortunately the thing that helped LU get season four into production (lesser budget, fewer episodes) has been the one thing that has really hamstrung them. It's why they you've seen far more things play out in ring then backstage, why there's been one, maybe two scenes per episode now instead of more and why in the last episode we got the completely rushed Gift of the Gods set up, a rushed Dante Fox return and that silly Sammy Guevara thing (I wasn't a fan of either and thought the episode was a waste beyond the Strong stuff and that really good main event with Mundo). I do know for a fact that LU was originally supposed to have 26 episodes and then it was cut back to 22 at the last second (thus eliminating a full weekend of tapings) so I wouldn't doubt that whatever they had planned for the medallions got erased along with those extra episodes. In any event, that sort of stuff has definitely harmed the show. I still think they're doing as good a job as they can and up until last week the show was really catching fire; the episodes Marty won the title, defended against Mariposa and the Pentagon/Reklusa match were all top notch (and Ultima Lucha still looks like a killer show, especially with this Strong stuff hanging over it). But it's definitely not what season's 1, 2 and 3 were. If it was then there would've been at least two scenes already hinting at what Strong is really involved with.

mizfan
10-24-2018, 08:57 AM
100% agree that from Marty winning the title up to this last episode was straight fire, maybe one of the best multi-week stretches LU has had. Having 4 episodes cut last minute definitely seems to explain the rushed GOTG thing, which is a shame but if you have to cut some content I'm not sure what would be a better choice. Feel the worst for Fox though, hopefully he's got something at UL4 to make up for it, not just in the ring but in terms of his character. Hoped they saved some budget for some cool final scenes.

UL4 still looks freaking awesome by the way, so I'm hyped for it!

Cult, if anyone would know it'd be you: any word at all on the chances of season 5?

Cult Icon
10-24-2018, 12:56 PM
I'd venture to guess they did put a lot of the budget into a final montage so we will get that. And Fox will get his moment tonight. It seems like everyone missed that there's going to be a Seven to Survive match tonight for the Gift of the Gods; Fox vs. Aerostar vs. PJ Black vs. Strong vs. Big Bad Steve vs. Hernandez vs. King Cuerno (Antonio announced it after the Battle Royal last week). They rushed themselves getting to it and, kayfabe wise, Big Bad Steve and Hernandez don't entirely belong but it should be a hell of a match, especially since it's probably going to take up the whole show. I wouldn't doubt that Fox wins the match actually. Strong seems like they guy they're building to but it's so unbelievably obvious that I'm guessing either Fox or Aerostar, who Strong has obviously been beefing with, will steal it. LU can then have Strong go after them in season five or, if they want to move quickly, they can use it to set up another Ultima Lucha match where Strong takes the title then. Antonio's new rules would still allow him to get involved in the main event if he were to win.

As for season five, all indications are it will happen. I haven't asked recently but the last I heard was that Dorian Roldan (who is heavily involved in the business side of LU things, though not creative) is determined to make sure this goes at least seven seasons, when all the initial LU deals expire. After that who knows, but as we're only at season four now that would seem to guarantee season five will happen unless El Rey decided to pull the plug now, and there's no indication they're thinking that. I remember hearing something about LU doing the same thing they did this year where they taped for several weeks in February and March and making that a reoccurring thing, so if that's the case we should be hearing about a season five soon and can expect the tapings around that time in 2019. But obviously I cannot swear to that. I've also heard they may return to the old Temple, which would be cool. Nothing against the new place (I honestly forget sometimes that it isn't the old Temple besides the WCW Saturday Night style entrance door) but it be nice to return to the old Temple again.

mizfan
10-24-2018, 01:03 PM
Awesome to hear, Cult. And I agree, the original Temple would be cool, the new one has been fine but it's just not quite the same somehow.

I did recall the GOTG match coming up tonight, but I do feel like Strong is a lock to win the belt. His push has been so strong (no pun intended), I think they're just gonna go all the way with him. I'd be happier to be wrong though, Fox getting that belt and then being inserted in something big to set up the next season would be very cool.

Cult Icon
10-24-2018, 09:24 PM
This episode picks up right where the two before last week left off. GREAT EPISODE! Seven to Survive match is awesome and the scene at the end has major ramifications for the last two episodes.

Oliver
10-25-2018, 09:04 AM
Yeah, I really enjoyed it this week. I'm a fan of the gauntlet/elimination match style anyway, so when I was always going to enjoy them doing it here.

Loved that ending sequence, which worked in terms of storylines from this season. I'm not quite sure what they're doing with Drago right now and don't really want to search out the UL match listings to see if he turns up there, but certainly feel like there's something more to do with him.

Rob S.
10-25-2018, 09:42 AM
I enjoyed this week too, but I felt like the outcome was always pretty apparent. Not one of those in the ring was going to hand Strong his first loss, just wasn't going to happen. Now though I'm uneasy about the Main Event at UL, because Strong can interject himself at any time, so either he puts himself in a 3-way with Pentagon and Marty, or he just picks off whomever wins and has the hell beaten out of him, making it a "MITB" style cash-in. The good thing about the GOTG was that the match was always competitive. This new rule cheapens that, and I fear that's exactly what we're going to see.

As for Drago, he's not booked on UL, nor is Aerostar at this point, but that doesn't mean they won't get involved somehow.

And come on, what was the point in bringing Dante Fox back for two episodes and then breaking his ankle. That was a waste.

I love Lucha Underground very much, but it's falling into some very familiar patterns.

Cult Icon
10-25-2018, 11:40 AM
The new rule with the Gift of the Gods definitely is something that shouldn't last beyond this season (though as long as it makes sense in how they tell the story it doesn't stick in my side that much). The Dante Fox thing is totally understandable though on every front. We all know why they wanted him back (he's great) and they wrote him off here because there wasn't anything for him at Ultima Lucha IV; the only thing would've been him vs. Strong one on one (with Fox winning last night so Strong could beat him in a week or two), which I personally would've done but it's not the end of the world that they didn't (and frankly the same thing would've happened that happened last night). Part of the problem with big shows these days is that promotions try to find a spot for everyone when it probably be best to go with what they have. So I'm fine with how they used Fox and the ankle break likely means he'll be one of the major challengers and maybe even the guy to dethrone Strong in season five (I'd put the money on him, Pentagon or Aerostar, who seems to always be linked with Strong and also has a habit of not getting his ankle broken. There are no coincidences in LU; him continuing to escape the break means something). It's not a waste; it's just something that will play out further down the line.

comfortablynumb
10-25-2018, 12:54 PM
I was thinking Fox's appearance maybe was just contractual. He was busy but was required to make an appearance at some point? Maybe not.

Rob S.
11-02-2018, 03:38 PM
So we got Week 1 of Ultima Lucha Cuatro in the books. It was......ok. The opening 6-person Trios 3-way was decent, but nothing overwhelming. Not sure of the purpose of doing the whole Sammy Guevara angle since he ended up missing half the match. Ivelisse and X-O are stars though, let me just say that. Ivelisse has never looked better now that she's past her injuries and I'm just going to say it, that shot when she bent over and Sammy went over her back to the floor had my jaw drop. Damn!

Taya/Ricky was......a match. It was a necessary squash, but I feel like the whole "doll" thing ended up amounting to nothing, unless it carries over into Season 5.

Killshot vs. Havoc was really quite good though, if not a little silly at times. There were also a couple really slow spots which you could easily see where spots were being set-up that seemed to take too long. Crowd got quiet just waiting for something to happen. They're both so good though that this one was solid all around. As expected, we got the Killshot unmasking, and a bit of redemption for the character at the end. Striker sold the moment well, which helped. Based on the final cinematic, it looks like Lt. Jermaine "Killshot" Strickland has left the Temple, but Dante Fox may be sticking around.

Two hour finale this upcoming week.

mizfan
11-02-2018, 05:03 PM
I wonder if they purposefully put the lesser matches (for the most part) on this show because they knew it'd do a low rating on Halloween?

Overall I did think it was pretty good, nothing amazing but I didn't expect it to be on paper.

I like that they finished the arc of captain Vasquez, even if it was a bit anticlimactic. Also seemingly done with stock footage? But better that than a dangling loose end. Got to wonder who Aerostar will be giving that amulet to now.

The trios match was fun, the Spanish Fly was awesome of course. I was sort of rooting for XO/Ivelisse/Sammy but also sort of not, since they've never even teamed before and it doesn't feel right to win the titles on the first go. Great performance from all three though. I’m not that into the current reptile tribe, was rooting for the Rabbits, to be honest. Killer Kross has great presence and may well be a real star. Lots more of him to do in season 5, hopefully.

Taya/Ricky was simple but effective, fit the story well. I like that Taya sold how pissed off she was. If you think about it Ricky is a bit sympathetic though, all he did was love Johnny and WWU and they treated him badly until he went insane. But it's not cool to be a fanboy, so he deserves nothing but punishment!

Killshot/Havoc was excellent overall a nice capper on this feud with some cool spots. Might have liked it more if it was Killshot and someone he had more history with, or they had more plunder to work with, but still good. Final vignette was very effective but I’ll miss Strickland dearly, I can only assume he’s looking to move to NXT. At this rate he'll be there in 3-6 months, so more power to him. DEFINITELY hope AR Fox sticks around, was intrigued by his mysterious "mission" and really liked how they left it between the characters.

They left all the best stuff for next week, and I'm super excited. Penta/Marty, Feniz/Azteca, Mack/Muertes, and Mundo/Matanza could ALL potentially be show stealers.

Oliver
11-04-2018, 06:12 PM
I'm ready for the finale now, all the matches on it should really deliver.

I was kind of hoping they'd give a bucket of time to the 2/3 falls match. I'm not sure it's going to get that on the show coming, but I think it will deliver.

My only fear is Strong walking around with GotG to act as spoiler on whoever wins between Marty and Pentagon. It's the easy cash in opportunity, but I hope if it does happen they at least treat it the way they did Puma Vs Pentagon at UL3 and have something competitive. I fear we won't really be getting that given the match that would lead into it, though.

And, I mean, that's all dependent of Strong continuing to underwhelm. Maybe season 5 he starts to light it up. Chavo's still under contract, so at least his Soaring Eagle is there for him.

Cult Icon
11-04-2018, 07:38 PM
I thought we were past Strong being underwhelming in the ring. The early season stuff is still too one sided for my taste but I thought he was really good with Johnny Mundo and especially good in the Seven to Survive match. And he's not the type of guy I would've thought to gel with Dante Fox the way he did. I think if anything he's been done a bit of a disservice by LU saving the big reveal about his role till later. Maybe that was for budget reasons, but if we have an inkling that Strong is the Lord or whoever right before he starts feuding with Aerostar and Drago then I think the push feels more complete as opposed to him squashing people for weeks before they finally got around to it/making his matches competitive.

Oliver
11-05-2018, 12:29 PM
I think the biggest thing with him has been the lack of him being in competitive matches, in fairness, which certainly has been rectified in recent weeks. Hopefully they stick with that framework for him going forward, and maybe they'll have to with him as champion.

It's interesting to think about him in context with Matanza. Matanza we knew early on was unfathomably strong and a god in a boiler suit, so it was kind of cool when he just strode out to the ring, wrecked someone in a couple of minutes, then strode off again. Even him sacrificing people this season could be dealt with. But without that back story Strong doesn't get the same understanding. Maybe you're right, Cult, maybe we just need that story to connect the dots and contextualise everything. I'm really interested to see if we get that shot of Strong with the gauntlet during UL4 Part 2, because if so there's got to be some interesting story leading up to it.

Rob S.
11-05-2018, 12:30 PM
The fact that Strong actually isn't booked for the finale leads me to believe something big is going to happen, whether we like it or not. The two hour finale should be a cracker though, with damn fine matches all around. The only problem with the finale is that it's the finale. Again, we'll wait.

mizfan
11-05-2018, 03:08 PM
I do agree that revealing him as The Lord would have helped make accepting the Jake Strong super push easier. But I don't know what to tell you Cult, he was a bit better in the past few weeks but I'll stop thinking he's underwhelming in his role when he stops underwhelming me. If he does walk out of season 4 with the LU title, it's hard to imagine that I won't be at least somewhat disappointed. I have faith in LU to execute it well and maybe I'll be turned around yet, it's happened before, so we'll see.

Rob S.
11-08-2018, 11:50 AM
I don't even know where to start on the Finale, so let's just go in match order.

Fenix/Dragon was actually kind of disappointing, and from talking to Cult it sounds as though it suffered from some serious editing due to the length of it and only getting 2 hours for the finale. Apparently they wanted 3 and got denied, so this was the match that suffered. It's a shame because I wanted that to be so much better, which is probably was live.

Then we get our new ring announcer for the night, a member of Lucha royalty, daughter of Eddie, Shaul Guerrero. Her interaction with Famous B and Chavo was spot on and she actually does the 3 Amigos better than Chavo. Great add to the Temple

Mack/Muertes was a good, solid hardcore battle, and the fans really, really love Big Willie Style. I'm not sure where either goes from here, as Mil seems kind of lost without Catrina and now that he's been buried again we'll have to see how he comes back this time.

Mundo/Matanza was good, but the sound effects were a little corny at times with the blows from the gauntlet. I love the cheesiness of LU at times, but then there are instances where it just doesn't work. Good match, and I guess we've seen the end of the big man it seems.

Marty/Pentagon was insanely brutal. Marty bled something fierce and the proverbial Crimson Mask he wore was a striking visual. I love the actual match itself as well. The Vampiro turn at the end I think was pretty obvious to most, but the reveal of his Master was something different.

Of course then we get the inevitable Jake Strong cash-in which I hated to see coming, but in the context of what came AFTER, it worked. I'm not thrilled at the cheapness of it, but I appreciate what is to come.

The ending montage was insane. Cuerno/Aero and Dragon giving the Gauntlet to a returning Black Lotus to kill Matanza, then Strong taking it from Azteca afterwards and breaking his leg. Taya now seems to be possessed by a creepy doll, which does not bode well for Mr. and Mrs. Slamtown. Then the giant reveal of the Conglomerate of Evil. Antonio Cueto, Vampiro's Master, Jake Strong and........freaking Bad News Barrett as the the man in the shadows all working together. That's some crazy shit right there.

But on the flip side, Aero has perhaps made a deal with another kind of devil by reincarnating Dario with the medallions he took from Captain Vasquez. Does the side of good NEED Dario to fight Papa Cueto and their crew? That's damn scary if true.

mizfan
11-08-2018, 02:22 PM
Watching this tonight with no spoilers, very excited!! :)

Cult Icon
11-08-2018, 03:53 PM
This will be a long post so bare with me (avoid mizfan, AVOID!)


-On last week's Masked, Mats and Mayhem podcast Eric Van Wagenen (LU's Executive Producer) and Chris Roach (Chris DeJoseph's lieutenant writer) revealed they approached El Rey about making the show three hours in order to get everything in. For whatever reason, El Rey declined, leaving the show at two hours. At that point they had to cut stuff down and, while they didn't say this on the podcast, it appears it came down to cutting parts of Fenix-Azteca or the Shaul Guerrero debut. They cut parts from the former and kept the latter in, and thus Fenix-Azteca came off far less than it probably was. It was still good all things considered, but there's definitely a better version of the match out there and it's a shame El Rey didn't give us the three hour show so we could see it.

-That said, I'm find with them cutting that down and leaving Shaul's debut intact. I thought that got the show back on track immediately following the opener, and Shaul herself seems to have inherited Eddie's charisma. She felt like a star on the microphone and her interactions with Famous B were great. I didn't need to have Chavo out there (even though he fit) and I would've preferred Shaul doing the Frog Splash as a capper, but for all I know she's not far enough along to do that. The Three Amigos were awesome though, and everything else about the segment ruled. If Shaul can work, she's a superstar waiting to happen.

-Mack and Mil was tremendous fun. I don't know what more there is to say than that, other than I'm thrilled they finally gave Mack his big win. I think that helped elevate the match in a way; Mil winning would've been fine but the whole story was about Mack overcoming his fear of Mil and getting that big singles victory he's lacked. Was really happy for him and it was a hell of a match.

-I think Johnny Mundo-Matanza is going to wind up being very underrated. It was not a traditional match in any sense and that's what I loved about it. It was basically a human chess match mixed with a chase scene, all about Johnny getting the glove and Matanza trying to keep it away (while foolishly not using the glove himself). In the end Johnny out ran Matanza, out smarted Matanza and beat him thanks to the glove. I loved it, and I especially loved how Matanza, this all power being, crumbled at the sight of the gauntlet. Jeff Cobb was outstanding with that and I will miss him on this show (though I have heard he may return! Sure he had his heart torn out, but I think Aerostar has proven nothing is impossible for him!).

-Speaking of Aerostar, I can't believe he got Johnny to give up the gauntlet by merely playing to his vanity! That totally wouldn't have worked on Cage. On the one hand I'd say the move didn't work out for Aerostar, but on the other hand if Johnny had kept the glove then Taya would've gotten it...so maybe it did work out?

-Pentagon-Marty was off the charts. I think Hell of War was slightly better as a death match but this had elements of that, the WMD match, Fenix-Marty, the original Cero Miedo match...it was just stupendous. Pentagon is a rock star and Marty is just unbelievable. HOW DOES HE NOT GET WORK ELSEWHERE?! His story this season was just tremendous and it felt like the show turned it up once he won that title. His reign was short, but it will go down as one of the best and I can't wait to see what LU has in store for him when/if we get to season five.

-Nice to see Reklusa one last time before she disappears into the NXT void.

-They remembered the Vampiro master angle! His master is Hexagon Black and he is played by long time overlooked AAA luchador Australian Suicide. As you can see, he is a very athletic man.

-Obviously there isn't much to the Strong-Pentagon match but I have to commend LU for a) making the victory as much of a fluke as possible for Strong and b) making Pentagon look like the bad ass to end all bad asses even in defeat. The man went through that death match, got beaten up by Vampiro and Hexagon, had his ankle snapped in half and STILL NEVER SUBMITTED! Watch it again if you don't believe me; he is conscious for several seconds after Strong breaks his ankle and never gives up; he holds out until he, as JR would say, passes out from the pain and the match ends it stoppage. Even after all that he never gave in. LU couldn't have done a better job making him look great in defeat, while also making it clear that Strong is just a means to an end. Pentagon is still the top dog of LU.

-There are many reasons I love Lucha Underground; one of them is they're the only promotion out there that would find Black Lotus and bring her in to wrap up that story by being the one to kill Matanza. As it should've been. Well done LU, well done.

-I can't believe Aerostar listened to Azteca instead of King Cuerno. I mean it's fucking El Dragon Azteca Jr.! Nothing goes right for him. Aerostar should've known the moment he gave him the glove it would be lost to the Order. Oh well; guess Aerostar is allowed one mistake.

-Remember this; early in season three Dario Cueto gave Ricky Mundo those pictures of the Island of the Dolls, knowing it would send him there. It did, Ricky came back with Rosa, Rosa eventually fell into Taya's grasps and boom; the Order now has another god inhabiting a human body. It was the plan all along. Yet another brilliant move by LU (and you gotta love Rosa, or whoever the god is, never once considering to jump into Ricky. Even in kayfabe Ricky is useless!). Now we get to see her vs. Johnny with him trying to save her, which could wind up being another emotional angle alongside Fenix and Melissa.

-I love sociopathic, aloof Jake Strong. The way he simply said "Matanza" in that detached voice when asked who had died was awesome.

-Wade Barrett. How I have missed you.

-The way I see it the battle lines have no been drawn. The Order is Barrett, Strong, Taya, Winter, Hexagon (gotta love Australian Suicide going from the outhouse to the penthouse in one fell swoop), Vamp by association and at least one other to replace Matanza. The heroes are Pentagon, Aerostar, Cuerno, Azteca, Drago (via friendship with Aerostar) and the seven tribes, provided none join with the Order (looking at you, reptiles and moths!). Notice how LU set up the good side to be the luchadores and the villains to be (largely) North American stars who fans think are taking time away from the luchadores. Gotta love LU playing with that dynamic.

-Aerostar is a legend.

-HE HAS RISEN!

This has not been the easiest season of Lucha Underground, given the budget cuts, the lack of backstage scenes and the polarizing push of Jake Strong. And yet in the end, LU made it all work with this episode and especially those final five minutes. We've got Dario Cueto back. Pentagon in defeat was made to look even stronger. Aerostar, for all the talk of being buried by Strong, has become the number two technico in the company behind Pentagon simply because of the role he's played in the backstage scenes. A whole slew of compelling storylines were set up for next season, especially the main one. Hell, this scene paid off angles during this season that we didn't even know was happening; did anyone out there think that Catrina giving her half of the amulet to Melissa would lead to Dario Cueto coming back to life?! Did anyone think the amulet would play any part like it did back when it was introduced in the second episode of season three? For all I know there are things in this season we aren't think about now that will pay off huge down the road (possibly something like Dante Fox' secret mission). It just goes to show you that you can never count this creative team out. They know what they're doing and they always, ALWAYS, find a way even when you least expect it.

What a show. I don't know if I have ever loved a promotion quite like Lucha Underground and I'm damn sure not ready for it to go away. Bring on season five. Bring on the great war. BRING ON MORE EL JEFE!

Oliver
11-09-2018, 10:37 AM
Yeah, agreed with that last point there Cult - there have been difficulties, some of which have been well covered here if not all, but ultimately I think the last few episodes of the season, pretty consistently, they really found their storytelling stride and got it all moving forward really well to lead into the big finale. And the thing is, there were aspects of the finale I didn't especially like - I thought, for example, that the use of Melissa in the Fenix/Azteca match was a little too overwrought for my liking, and I didn't particularly love that Shaul's reveal led into a 6/7 minute segment on Ultima Lucha - but those are relatively minor points and didn't take away from how much I enjoyed everything there.

In fact, I would say that Azteca vs Fenix makes a lot more sense to me now knowing the above from you, Cult, and the details from the MMM podcast, because it did feel a little bit jarring at points and didn't quite flow like I would have expected work between those two to have done. Everything else on the card delivered to make up for my slight disappointment in the opener, and I think my personal favourite was Matanza vs Mundo. It was fun, it was a bit silly, it worked with the whole Temple, it didn't go overly long or feel overly long, and it told the story of both the match itself and the mythos of the show itself. They treated the gauntlet story really well, I thought, and managed to put a match together that both had the power and importance of the gauntlet at its heart whilst not neglecting the story of the two people involved. And yeah, Matanza recognising that he was vulnerable to the gauntlet, possibly vulnerable to his opponent one on one for the first time in the Temple, was terrific. As was his entrance gear, which holy shit.

Mack vs Muertes was good, great in parts, and I'm super happy to see Mack pick up the win. For some reason I was expecting Catrina to show her face, possibly in one of the coffins, and the fact she wasn't sort of disappointed me. I think her presence in the opening video teased me and then there wasn't a pay off, even though that was her place in a different story to the Mack/Muertes one. Still, good fun.

And the man was incredible - off the charts intensity, and probably the best out and out brawl LU has delivered since the first Cero Miedo match for me. I love that they tied so much stuff into that from the past of the show as well, which made it really work.

And hey, they paid of the Vampiro Master story! I'm so glad they went there, and Australian Suicide looked awesome. Hexagon Black? I'm down with it, and even that ties in to the birth of Pentagon as (if I'm right?) the rival of Octagon in Mexico.

I love that they're building up for the Great War, too. I can see how this show is playing out in the long run, and while season 4 was certainly hurt by the budget issues and so on it did, eventually, deliver. And you know what? If I can contextualise it against the end of season 3, where LU lost the person they'd hung the show on for so long in Puma, and a great season 5, which is certainly set up to be completely baller, I think seeing season 4 as a somewhat soft, in places hard, reset will let that pay itself off. They introduced and removed a lot of characters here, but season 5 will hopefully see something more steady in terms of roster and allow them to focus in on telling us the stories of the people involved, developing their characters, and making them worthwhile.

Is it just me that's already sketching out Strong, Hexagon, Barrett (maybe?), and someone else squaring off against a team of Aerostar, Cuerno, Azteca and Pentagon in something utterly, utterly ridiculous for control of LU, Antonio in one corner and Dario in the other (somehow)?

mizfan
11-09-2018, 02:44 PM
I saw the finale!! And I have so many thoughts....

It sounds like I liked Fenix/Azteca more than most! I'm not shocked to hear it was chopped up a bit in editing but I think they still got where they needed to go and worked a lot of awesome stuff in there. Fenix DARK is awesome, and Azteca impressed too, that Victory Bomb (don't care if that's not the real name) off the top through the table looked spectacular. I get what Ollie's saying that the Melissa stuff was a bit melodramatic in the timing, but I think it worked for me. Even though she knows Fenix may be lost, she can't bring herself to accept it. I wonder if Melissa might try to make some dark deal with some of the more powerful forces on the show to bring him back? Really feel like she's being driven to the point of desperation, and I'm loving it.

Didn't mind the Shaul Guerrero stuff but like Ollie I thought it took up a bit more time than it should have at such a big show. I love Famous B as much as the next person and it was a good segment, so it didn't bother me much, I just wish there was more time. I agree Shaul actually did 3 Amigos better than most, but does she actually have any aspirations to wrestle still? She did a few FCW matches in 2011/12 but literally nothing since, and she's getting close to 30 now. That's awfully late to make a go of it in the ring, though definitely not impossible.

Mack/Muertes was AWESOME, rolling out the coffins, trying to AX each other in the face, and that damn ice pick!! Both guys were awesome here but Mack once again especially proved his enormous star potential, and finally got the big win to cement that fact. I admit I was a little thrown because previous deathmatches have been LMS style (if I recall right?) but that didn't really impact my enjoyment at all. The energy of this was awesome. This show delivered in such a big way.

Matanza looked AMAZING in his new gear, as others have said! I'm 100% with Cult in that people may underrate this one due to it's unique story, but I absolutely loved it. I hardly noticed the sound effects (expect at the end) so that wasn't a factor for me, and I absolutely loved the creative psychology and the phenomenal use of the Temple. The people I was watching with were literally shouting for Johnny to bust through the door and take down Matanza after he got thrown through the roof, and when he kicked out of Wrath of the Gods, holy crap. So awesome. One weird thing, I just assumed that whoever lost a Sacrifice Match would be automatically raptured up to Aztec Heaven, but seemingly not. Felt like a bit of a copout at the time, if a Sacrifice match doesn't end in a Sacrifice then it's just a normal match, no? But of course, they had other plans for Matanza...

Legitimately surprised Mundo gave the Gauntlet back willingly. I've struggled with Mundo's face turn in general this season. I think I can buy this more than the free Drago thing, since Mundo loves himself more than anything and must have been getting a sense that he was being overtaken by something else. Also, ALTERNATE THEORY!! Is it possible the gauntlet had ALREADY inhabited him, or at least left something inside him? Cage didn't seem quite the same even after the gauntlet was gone, and if whatever was in the gauntlet already left a seed in Mundo, then that could be why it let him give it up so easily. More on that in a moment...

Penta/Marty was the match of the night and probably the best match of the season. Marty is such a gem, I agree with Cult that it's nuts that he doesn't have offers pouring in from every indy in existence. Penta had his best showing in quite a while too, chucking a chair into Marty's face at the start was a thing of beauty and it just escalated from there. Marty bleeding buckets was an incredible visual. I can't quite rate it as high as the first Cero Miedo match but that's one of my all time favorites, and it wasn't all THAT far off either. This one was a thing of beauty, and Marty should be a major player forever and a day.

Vamp betraying Penta could be seen a mile away but that's ok, they clearly intended the audience to know more about Vamp than Penta did, since his mysterious master has been known about for a full season now. I had faith they would come back to this, and sure enough they did! I'm all for Australian Suicide being the guy in the gimmick, his look was great and he's got the ring skills to pull his weight and more.

Jake Strong... well, I'm still not really a fan of the guy, and probably never will be, and I really hope his title reign doesn't go on too long in season 5, but I'll give credit to LU to doing pretty much everything in their power to make me ok with it. Penta being devastated and STILL not giving up was a great touch, as Cult mentioned. I just wish they had picked up someone different for this role, there's no shortage of guys who could have pulled it off. Brody King probably would have been my pick, a So Cal guy with enormous upside, but that's neither here nor there. They've got Jake and they're making the best of him, for now at least. Nice to know gods can jump bodies, just in case they do decide to switch tactics down the line! I really hope they scrap the MITB style GOTG cash ins though, they've basically done in on the last three GOTG exchanges and I think they were better off without it.

And yeah, HOLY SHIT that final scene! As hoped, it was amazing. Cuerno, Aerostar, and Azteca meeting over the Gauntlet... should Aerostar have known better? Perhaps he knew what would happen anyway? Always tricky, is that guy. Bringing back Black Lotus to finish her arc was beautiful, and a testament to the quality of LU storytelling. She finally offs Matanza, and it's an ending to the character that I can accept (if it is the ending, of course!! ZOMBIE MATANZA PLEASE!!). Strong brutalizing Azteca was probably the best he's looked all season, the more they lean into this inhuman god thing the easier it is to accept him. His eternal deadpan makes more sense if he's a god devoid of human emotion! And that's called accentuating the positive!

Possessed Taya... did not see that coming! Mundo vs. Taya is gonna be a heartbreaker but holy crap, what an amazing angle if Mundo has to try to rescue his wife's soul, or else destroy her to save her from a life of possession. Holy crap, there's so much potential there. Could be an extra layer if Mundo does have a god seed inside him from the gauntlet and has to decide if he wants to let it overtake him so he can join his wife in godhood. Even if he doesn't have the seed, I could see Mundo finding a way to join the evil god side if he can't win Taya back. Enormous potential right there!

A point about what Cult said, do we really think Dario intentionally sent Ricky to bring back a demon doll god? From what I remember the scene Dario seemed annoyed that the pictures showed up, and tried to first throw them in the garbage before they teleported back to his desk and he pushed them off on the first person he saw. Could be that he knew their god connection and didn't want to get involved directly, but my initial read was that he didn't know their significance. Could see it either way.

And YES, the masters of evil! BIG talking point from this scene, Antonio clearly said "all the gods have taken human form". I HAVE to assume there are seven gods total, to eventually match up with the seven tribes, so who are the gods? Hexagon Dark, Jake Strong, and Wade Barrett (GREAT TO SEE HIM!!) are obvious, and now we know Taya for sure too (assuming she's one of them and not a rogue force). Matanza was another, and I assume whatever was in him will have to find another host. That's five, potentially. I don't think Vamp's a god, though obviously he's become an ally. I wonder how much Vamp actually knows though, and whether he may eventually turn on his masters. Is Agent Winter a god? I didn't think so initially but now I'm really not sure. Could Fenix have somehow got some god in him?? Is Killer Kross a secret god sent to fuck up the Rabbit Tribe and destroy the possibility for the tribes to unite?? Regardless, there may be more unknown gods out there... assuming my theory of seven gods is correct. There could be less, or even more!

Really, REALLY hoping LU gets a proper ending, and the final match is a full show length Cibernetico style bout to decide the fate of this crazy Aztec Ragnarok they have going on. Seven tribes against seven gods... so much bloody potential there, my god!

And the coup de grace, the resurrection of the true protagonist of Lucha Underground!

Ok, time for my CRAZIEST THEORY YET!

So we've thought for a while that "Antonio Cueto" may actually be Dario in disguise. This seems to have been disproved by this episode... OR HAS IT?? It never sat well with me that Antonio ordered the hit on his own son, and Dario just happened to call his dad when it happened. It could be true, but it never sat well with me. SO, what if after resurrecting Dario, Aerostar took him into the past? What if Dario in fact ordered the hit on himself, knowing Aerostar would resurrect him and that it would allow him to hide from the forces that wanted him dead by impersonating his dad right under their noses?? I know that's a bit convoluted but I feel like it's more Nolan that Shyamalan and could work as a beautiful reveal if executed right. Now I could be totally off base and Dario and Antonio really are both who they seem to be, but then as Ollie alluded to, you have the pretty big issue of how to put these two guys in the same place on a show that mostly happens in front of a live crowd. There are ways of working around that sure, but not really very good ones. On the other hand, would Dario do the things that Antonio did this season? Would he be willing to break Matanza from his human side? Would Aerostar put Dario back in charge, knowing everything that would happen in this season? I say MAYBE to both... Dario's love of his brother has proved cruel and inconsistent in the past, and with Aerostar seeing the consequences of fucking up the timeline he might know that he has no choice but to close up the loop. OR, he may know that Dario is important enough to resurrect even with the consequences of this season. What can Dario do? Is he the key to stopping the Aztec Apocalypse? He must be, right? But why... that's the question I NEED to know!

ARGH!! Ultima Lucha IV was so amazing, and I need season 5 to be confirmed RIGHT NOW!!!

Oliver
11-09-2018, 03:05 PM
I love that on Dario being Antonio - in fact I had the same idea on my train home! It's definitely still an option.

One thing I meant to say on Shaul is that I really liked her work in FCW and early on in NXT. She can work well, if not incredibly, as I recall. Been a while since I saw her do anything of note, though.

It feels somehow right that there's a Guerrero in the Temple that isn't Chavo.

Cult Icon
11-09-2018, 07:57 PM
I think if it were as simple as Dario and Antonio being the same guy then that would've been the reveal at the end; Dario removing the disguise to reveal he survived. Not to mention the final scene clearly shows Antonio taking the key off Dario's body and walking away. Even for LU it's hard for me to believe that that's Dario, in disguise, standing over his own lifeless body, and it clearly wasn't a mannequin or anything like that (as some of us thought early on) because then who would Aerostar have brought back to life? So no, my guess is Dario and Antonio are two different people.

That doesn't mean Antonio is all he seems though. A more logical scenario in my mind is that Antonio is actually a double agent who orchestrated what happened with Aerostar (and possibly Dario) to bring his son back and has been undercover since. Or, like Dario before he got shot, Antonio has been a devoted member to The Order all along but the death of his son (which he would've had no choice but to order or else he'd be killed too) led to him changing sides and working with Aerostar in order to save his son. Either way those seem like plausible scenarios. It would be tricky to explain, if that were the case, why Antonio did what he did to Matanza, but I suppose you could twist it as Antonio doing what he needed to do to protect his cover and that Matanza was likely a lost cause anyway; he's still a host whether Antonio destroys his remaining humanity or not and if he doesn't, then it's likely the Order has Antonio killed and someone else unleashes Matanza anyway, with no guarantee Aerostar can pull everything else off. Maybe I'm wrong but I think we'll find out that Antonio, in his own way, has been on Dario's side all along.

And if that's the case, you don't need this to be building to an Antonio-Dario confrontation. Frankly I don't think it should be anyway. Dario's beef isn't with his father, it's with Agent Winter and the Lord. The money confrontation is Dario confronting the man who shot him and the man who has controlled his life all these years. That's what LU is likely building to; it doesn't mean there can't be a backstage confrontation/reunion between father and son (frankly I'd bank on it, and in that setting LU can pull it off) but to me, this is less the story of Dario getting revenge on his dad than it is Dario's odyssey back to the Temple and embracing his role as LU's anti-hero against the forces of darkness. I guess we'll see when the time comes though!

mizfan
11-09-2018, 08:44 PM
My theory actually is that Dario did die and really was lying in that casket, but then after being revived Aerostar sent him back to an earlier time and he attended his own funeral as Antonio! Although you do have a good point, there's a good chance they would have included that in the reveal... unless they are saving up for a second big reveal! Hey, I think it's possible at least, and it'd be an interesting way to go IMO.

I'm also down with the idea that Antonio is actually Antonio, but secretly still on Dario's side. To your point, Antonio could want to protect Dario but still be willing to break Matanza's soul to increase his power, maybe even with the idea of rebelling against the other gods. Then again, from what we know of Antonio he doesn't think much of Dario, considering him only the weaker son... but who knows for sure?

I still think having both characters in the same scene too often might get to be a pain, but I agree they've GOT to meet up at some point (unless my original theory is correct!). Feels like both can't continue, so if Antonio is who he says he is, I wonder if his days might be numbered? If the gods figure out he's part of this, he'll bite the dust in no time. Man, there are a lot of great ways you can go with this!

Confirm season 5 already, for god's sake!

Oliver
11-10-2018, 03:47 AM
I mean, the real question in my mind is that, with Aerostar constantly changing the timeline from the future, how much of what we've seen is actually going to have happened in the new timeline and will there be any serious impacts on the events of season 4 as a result? Or are we just going to accept that bringing Dario back won't have actively impacted what happened in season 4 - in other words, have we been watching the timeline where Dario is alive or dead? The chronology of the series would suggest we've watched it with dead Dario, especially as he's not featured, but with Dario being brought back...I don't know, time travel is hard as Chikara will attest!

Cult Icon
11-10-2018, 01:40 PM
It really isn't that difficult. LU already showed how this could work early in the season with Aerostar resurrecting Fenix; remember that he technically brought Fenix back to life in the past before then taking him to the present. The same thing could easily apply here. Aerostar resurrects Dario, Dario says his line them bam; they're off to after Ultima Lucha IV. It's also not impossible that they're already in the present. It's one year ago when Antonio closes the coffin and walks away; it doesn't say anything about what time period it is when Aerostar opens it up and resurrects him. Either way LU can easily work with this in a way that doesn't erase season four's events and continues the story. I'd guess it's the first scenario (Aerostar brings him to the present) but either one will work.

I also think mizfan is correct in that Antonio Cueto isn't going to last long with Dario back. Like I said, the real story here isn't Dario vs. his father but Dario vs. Barrett and Winter. Even if Antonio legit ordered his son's death, Barrett is still the one responsible for involving Dario in this mess and Winter is the guy who shot him. They're the ones Dario needs to defeat to truly take back the Temple. So whether Antonio is on Dario's side or not, my guess is they'll give them a few scenes in season five and then Antonio will be off to meet Matanza, either by Dario's hand or Barrett's once they find out he betrayed them. I guess it really all depends on how quickly LU wants Dario to appear in whatever Temple they're in. Before we knew what season four would entail by thought was Dario would spend half the season recovering, then return during a huge match (like the Cueto Cup final or something) to begin building to the match for control of the Temple. Obviously it'll depend on how many episodes there are to the season, but that's what I'd like to see. The pop would be enormous!

SirSam
11-11-2018, 07:33 AM
Hey guys,
I'm putting together the end of year voting for LOP and was hoping to give a few options for Lucha Underground in the 'Non-WWE sections' but I don't watch it so thought I'd get some opinions here.

The categories are:
- Wrestler of the year
- Non-Wrestling Personality of the year
- Singles Match of the year
- Tag Match of the year
- Show of the year
- Feud of the year

If you could pop a few options for each on this thread or in a DM that would be most appreciated.

Benjamin Button
11-11-2018, 04:48 PM
Here is my thing... Antonio and Dario are so very different in the way they govern...Dario gives bribes, Antonio takes them . Dario still wants to promote his matches while having more a lust for violence than Antonio. They have a different take on the gift of the gods title and how it should be used. Antonio is just a cheaper person...I think they should be two different ppl whom the same actor can play whenever needed...

Overall, I liked the show and thought the gods were well put together.

Would like to know more about Vampiro's master.

Pentegon has become really beloved and just a hell of a character...loved when after Vampiro kicked him, he jumped up and kicked Vampiro back right away, his lack of hurt and disappointment or shock goes well with the dysfunctional bad ass character he's built.

Mac and Muertes... I think they missed somewhat an opportunity to build a streak for Mil. Though it was a happy ending to the fued, didn't think he needed to bury him, but for Lucha Underground it's either the end of Mil or a new beginning, I'm sure.

Good show

mizfan
11-12-2018, 04:16 PM
A new beginning, I hope! He isn't the same without Catrina (who is?) but he's still awesome. I have faith they will find a way to reinvigorate him.


I mean, the real question in my mind is that, with Aerostar constantly changing the timeline from the future, how much of what we've seen is actually going to have happened in the new timeline and will there be any serious impacts on the events of season 4 as a result? Or are we just going to accept that bringing Dario back won't have actively impacted what happened in season 4 - in other words, have we been watching the timeline where Dario is alive or dead? The chronology of the series would suggest we've watched it with dead Dario, especially as he's not featured, but with Dario being brought back...I don't know, time travel is hard as Chikara will attest!

I definitely think nothing we've seen will have changed. Either like Cult said, Aerostar will jump Dario to the present or else like I've said Dario was around all along, either in disguise or simply lying low so he doesn't get shot again.

I've wondered for a while whether LU's theory of time travel is fatalistic or flexible... when Aerostar changes something, does it also change the future? Or do his actions simply cause the same things to happen that would have happened anyway? I feel like there must be some way to shake fate, or else Aerostar wouldn't be trying so hard, yet it does feel like he could have prevented certain things and didn't do so. I'm sure he has some kind of vague Doctor Who rules to follow.

Sam, gonna get you a more complete list as we talked about but throwing a few ideas out here for you off the top of my head:

- Wrestler of the year
Pentagon Jr
Mil Muertes
Dragon Azteca Jr
The Mack
Fenix

- Non-Wrestling Personality of the year
Catrina
Antonio/Dario Cueto
Melissa Santos

- Singles Match of the year
Fenix vs. Mil Muertes vs. Jeremiah Crane, Casket 6/27/18 Lucha Underground
Mil Muertes vs. The Mack, Deathmatch 11/7/18 Lucha Underground
Pentagon Jr vs. Marty Martinez, Cero Miedo Match, LU Championship 11/7/18 Lucha Underground

- Tag Match of the year
Ivelisse, The Mack, & Son of Havoc vs. Dragon Azteca Jr, Dezmond Xavier, & King Cuerno 7/25/18 Lucha Underground
Ivelisse & XO Lishus vs. Jack Evans & Joey Ryan 8/8/18 Lucha Underground
Fenix & Mil Muertes vs. The Mack & Dragon Azteca Jr 10/10/18 Lucha Underground

- Show of the year
The Hunted 9/19
Spiders & Skeletons 10/10
Ultima Lucha Cuatro Part 2 11/7

- Feud of the year
Pentagon vs. Marty Martinez
Mil Muertes vs. The Mack
World Wide Underground vs. The Reptile Tribe

Cult Icon
11-14-2018, 09:26 AM
Here is my thing... Antonio and Dario are so very different in the way they govern...Dario gives bribes, Antonio takes them . Dario still wants to promote his matches while having more a lust for violence than Antonio. They have a different take on the gift of the gods title and how it should be used. Antonio is just a cheaper person...I think they should be two different ppl whom the same actor can play whenever needed...

Sure...for a little while that can definitely work. But at the end of the day I don't see Antonio being a long term character on this show. For one it's just a lot to ask Luis Fernandez-Gil to play both Dario and Antonio for a long period of time (I'm sure he can definitely pull it off, but still). And most importantly, Antonio isn't that important I don't think. He certainly wasn't a bad character this season (as a replacement for Dario, I actually thought he did a bit better than Catrina did early in season two) but if you watch the season back it's clear LU wasn't looking to make him the "star of the show" the way they did with Dario. Dario has always been played as a massive presence, a main character; Antonio always came across as a supporting one. And supporting ones don't last long, especially when, once again, Dario's fight is with Agent Winter and Lord Barrett, the real culprits responsible for nearly taking his life. I think that eventually takes the foreground and while I do believe we'll see at least two Antonio-Dario scenes in a potential season five, I think Antonio is likely to die midseason (at latest) in order to give Dario more motivation for his fight against The Order.



Mac and Muertes... I think they missed somewhat an opportunity to build a streak for Mil. Though it was a happy ending to the fued, didn't think he needed to bury him, but for Lucha Underground it's either the end of Mil or a new beginning, I'm sure.

Mil absolutely should've lost that match. I would've agreed beforehand that his streak needed to be protected but a) LU already has another undefeated streak at Ultima Lucha going with Fenix and b) The Mack really, REALLY needed to win this feud. I know he's beloved in the Temple and all but Big Willie's biggest win in LU before this match was defeating Cage in a Falls Count Anywhere match in the first round of Dario's Unique Opportunity Tournament at Ultima Lucha Dos, Part One. Maybe you could argue All Night Long II with Johnny Mundo was as good as a win for Mack because of how good it was (and it was great), but in the end he still didn't win and lost the rematch. Having him fall to Mil here (especially after Mil demolished him in the Haunted House match) would've made him hard to take seriously as a major threat going forward. Throw in how the story was all about him conquering his fear as well and he had to win. It's a shame about Mil's streak from the sense that he and Fenix will never get to face off undefeated at an Ultima Lucha, but it had to be done.

Benjamin Button
11-14-2018, 02:43 PM
I agree that Antonio should not be there non-stop. But maybe don't kill him and bring him back once in awhile. Could be 1-2 shows a year. His character can grow and have something to offer when he comes around.

mizfan
11-14-2018, 04:03 PM
I'm with Cult, I'm all for Mack getting a hugely deserved win here. Demonstrates perhaps that Mil is lacking without Catrina. Wonder if he'll end up with a new supporting player in season 5...

Cult Icon
12-19-2018, 02:37 PM
Good news guys; you can know own LU on DVD! Yes, even though LU's social media accounts are dumber than a bag of hammers and haven't promoted this, LU's first three season are now available on DVD at their official store (http://luchaunderground.com/product/lucha-underground-seasons-1-3-dvd-set/). They're a little pricey ($50 for each season, $125 for all three seasons combined) but it's better than nothing if you've missed LU since they left Netflix.

Oh, and apparently Vampiro is saying season five is being worked on as we speak, the show will return soon and will feature a new look and more luchadores. Happy holidays!

mizfan
12-19-2018, 02:53 PM
Ahh, very tempted to go buy those! I should probably hold off til my bank account refills a little from the holidays.

Viva season 5! Hope it comes true!

Team Farrell
02-07-2019, 12:42 PM
So, this popped up on the main page today:

---

As reported by Pro Wrestling Sheet, King Cuerno (who also goes by El Hijo del Fantasma in AAA) has filed a dispute against El Rey Network in relation to his contract. The document, which sees Cuerno become the latest wrestler to go against Lucha Underground, contains the following information:


Plaintiff brings this action seeking to invalidate illegal provisions of a contract between himself and Defendants. Defendants is enforcing contracts with Plaintiff which are illusory, in that they require Plaintiffs to stop engaging in their lawful trade, while Defendants have no obligation to provide work to Plaintiffs, and only have an obligation to pay Plaintiffs if they are provided work on their show. This contract also violations California Business and Professions code 16600 and California public policy as they restrain Plaintiffs from working in their lawful profession.

The current contract that wrestlers signed with Lucha Underground require that wrestlers not perform services for other wrestling companies anywhere in the world without Defendants permission, but does not require Defendants to use Plaintiffs in their wrestling-theme television show.

While Plaintiffs are obligated to restrict their trade under the contract (which is illegal), Defendants are not required to use or pay Plaintiffs. Defendants have the option to use Plaintiffs, and IF Defendants use Plaintiffs, Defendants will pay Plaintiffs. IF Defendants chose not to use Plaintiffs, Plaintiffs are prohibited for working for years, are not paid, but still under the restrictive contract until it expires.

Most wrestlers under a Lucha Underground contract make less than $4,000 a year. Wrestlers working for other wrestling promotions make a living wage, usually starting around $50,000 a year and entering either 6 or 7 figures.

In addition to the aforementioned suit, there’s also a class action lawsuit being filed by several wrestlers. As mentioned by Cuerno’s lawyer Andre Verdun to Lucha Central, it will aim to “invalidate certain portions of their contracts that we believe are illegal.”

---

Damn.

mizfan
02-07-2019, 02:40 PM
Very depressing news, though not entirely shocking given the growing number of complaints about the original LU contracts. Creatively I will always regard the company as one of the most innovative and successful ever, but the upper management has truly made a terrible mess of all this, and the talent has every right to be pissed with no season 5 in sight. Amazing how much has changed in 4-5 years.

Best case scenario for me would be to release any talent that wants out, or work out a deal to reduce the contract if they're willing, and then immediately start production on a final season to wrap everything up. More likely the promotion will just fold up and never return though. Sucks that at a time where wrestling is booming a promotion this good can't keep it's head above water, but here we are.

Team Farrell
02-08-2019, 11:49 AM
This has the feeling of a lot of bad faith from LU. They signed people to seven year traditional wrestling promotion contracts without running an actual promotion. They are producing a TV show.

When things didn't work out with house shows, every one of those contracts should have been renegotiated to allow people to work anywhere that they wanted. But now, they are trying to keep people locked up for no reason. LU isn't WWE where they're running house shows five days a week, nor is there much of a reason for exclusive deals.

The CW doesn't stop Melissa Benoist from appearing in movies or other TV shows.

If LU wants to tell people that they can't use a gimmick LU created, cool. If they want to tell people that they need to be granted a release to sign with WWE who requires exclusivity, that's cool too. But come on.

What happened with Ricochet? How'd he get out of his contract?

Cult Icon
02-08-2019, 12:24 PM
He signed a three year deal. A lot of why this is happening now is because the luchadores all had their deal negotiated by AAA (who made sure it was all seven season deals) while the US indie guys were able to get them for a shorter amount of time. That's why you're seeing guys like PJ Black and Sonny Kiss roaming freely; they only signed one to three year deals.

The other reason this is happening right now is because Cuerno, Ivelisse, Joey Ryan and Thunder Rosa want to go elsewhere. You are wildly off base Coach when you suggest these people aren't working elsewhere. Ryan has been everywhere on the indies. Ivelisse is a regular for Shine. Thunder Rosa has been working Ring of Honor tapings for the last several months. Cuerno, under his regular name El Hijo del Fantasma, has worked several US indie dates, Impact and obviously AAA. And all of that is before we get into how Impact and several indies have been built around LU stars the last several years, while LU was going on. These people haven't been sitting at home; they've had the ability to work elsewhere for awhile, with the exception of WWE. The thing now is that Ryan and Rosa both have exclusive, probably well paying offers from AEW and ROH respectively on the table, Ivelisse wants a shot to go elsewhere and Cuerno, who did have a WWE offer two years ago that he had to turn down cause he was under LU deal, is trying to get to either there or AEW (the latter of which he has access to now due to AAA and AEW's agreement). None of these four have the stroke Pentagon and Fenix (who can work everywhere they want because they're that big of names on the circuit) to get pay per date deals with everyone, so the only power they have is to get out of their contracts, which is by filing the lawsuit. It's 100% the right play; LU doesn't have the money for a long fight, so this will be over really quick and they'll all be free to go wherever.

But no, this isn't a situation where LU has been telling talent "you can't wrestle anywhere when we aren't taping, stay at home!"; everyone on the roster, including these four have been able to work with whoever wants to book them. And this is where I will call out at least Fantasma because the reason he's being booked isn't because of LU; the reason he isn't being booked is because he coasted during his runs with Impact and some of the smaller indies. He had those opportunities and unfortunately he didn't perform well enough to get over in those stops, whereas guys like Pentagon and Fenix did and thus built enough power to go anywhere and everywhere. So while I definitely support Ivelisse (who hasn't worked a ton either, but those are largely for bullshit "SHE'S GOT A BAD ATTITUDE" reasons), Ryan and Rosa completely, Fantasma's case to me, at least from the class action suit standpoint, isn't as strong.

But that said, in terms of the first lawsuit he filed seeking pay for missing work, he's spot on. And that's where you can clearly tell how flawed the LU business process was. On screen I'm not sure anyone could touch what they did over the first three seasons at least. But off screen they never developed a proper business model, didn't re-negotiate once it was clear they had to, completely failed at getting house shows or proper merchandise off the ground and when they did, were awful at promoting it. And that's just a few things. The bottom line here is if LU had found a way to keep things moving in between seasons or just kept the gap between seasons shorter (like they did between season's 1, 2 and 3) we aren't here; by all accounts the wrestlers loved working in the Temple when there. But they didn't, people have to make a living and here we are.

mizfan
02-08-2019, 04:38 PM
I'm sure Coach is aware Joey Ryan still works the indies. ;)

I would think the problem isn't that these guys aren't working, it's that they want the bigger money that comes with more exclusivity. With AEW, ROH, and (obviously) WWE requiring exclusive TV rights in most cases, being tied to LU is hurting their ability to make the kind of sure-thing money they can reliably live on.

Rob S.
02-22-2019, 12:51 PM
Chris DeJoseph recently was asked about the future of the show. He said he believes it's dead, but nothing definite. That's some serious sadness right there.

mizfan
02-22-2019, 02:11 PM
Sad but definitely feels true. Even if the talent wasn't rebelling, it's been way too long since season 4 ended without any news. I'm almost looking forward to the ax falling at this point, at least then they can sort out the contract stuff and everyone can go back to looking back on how incredibly awesome the actual show was.

LK3185
02-22-2019, 04:54 PM
I hope Chris DeJoesph stays in wrestling. if he was the mind behind most of the creative, hoping he gets a job with AEW

mizfan
02-23-2019, 05:00 PM
My ideal would be for him to be given the reigns of a new project. Nobody in modern wrestling has shown themselves to be so capable of creating a self contained story from the ground up. Give him a chance to tell another story that's all his own, rather than jumping on to someone else's.

That said, having him involved in something is better than having him involved in nothing!

Mystic
02-23-2019, 05:37 PM
If it is over, someone also needs to find a sufficient place to pay tribute to what mattered so much about it and why. Even now, thinking of Dario Cueto, that's a character that should be enshrined with the all-time great characters.

mizfan
02-23-2019, 09:54 PM
Absolutely, even if they never air another second of material, Dario will always be one of the best ever.

Rob S.
02-25-2019, 03:11 PM
There's apparently a podcast coming March 13th with Chris DeJoseph and Chris Roach and apparently everything is open for discussion

mizfan
02-25-2019, 04:53 PM
That's both cool and scary...