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mizfan
09-10-2018, 03:24 PM
Considering the success of All In, thought it was time the American Nightmare got his own thread. Personally I'm a big fan of Cody, I think his wrestling is underrated and that he can really excel if he has a story/character to latch onto. I also thinking partnering up with Brandi has done him a lot of good, they are a great pairing. I don't think he'll ever be in contention for best worker of all time but he's very capable of having great matches in my book, and you can't overlook what a huge impact he's now had on the wrestling scene.

I also reviewed one of this matches recently for my recommend thread, so wanted to throw that in here too! Funny enough it's from his time in WWE, but I think it speaks a lot to where he's at now too.

Cody Rhodes & Goldust vs. Seth Rollins & Roman Reigns 10/6/13 WWE Battleground

First revisiting the 1-2 punch of Summerslam 2013, and now this to remind me that 2013 actually had a lot of great stuff in WWE! I know I saw this at the time but probably not since. I think if anything I loved it even more now, especially in the shadow of where Cody has gone since. Looking at this and where he is in 2018 it feels obvious, and you could easily forget how much dreck he had to deal with in between. A lot of things about the Authority angle bugged me, but as far as the Rhodes family went they NAILED it. Having Dusty at ringside was huge, obviously, and he is such an incredible presence there. The original Shield had such a unique energy too, it's really hard to recapture all this. And on top of all of it, in 2013 Goldust suddenly came back and I can say, with no exaggeration, that he looked the best out of anyone in terms of the match itself. Like, he just popped up and suddenly was one of the best wrestlers in the world again. Incredible. Everyone played their part of perfection, and thank you to Sam for directing me to revisit it. Truly one of the best matches of the year.

LK3185
09-11-2018, 03:27 PM
Also a fan of Cody. All the way back to dashing Cody.. Liked everything else he did, no matter the role he gave it his all even in roles he didn't care for. Also really like that he's never compromised who he is on the indies to be more liked as a wrestler... He works hard and seems like a genuine good guy. Easy to root for.

SirSam
09-11-2018, 06:16 PM
Who else remembers the Legacy years when his lack of knee pads made him look like he had chicken legs?

Damn that guy has grown on me.

Come to think of it, how crazy is it that his big break in WWE was in a stable all about legacy and in pursuing that same thing he quit the WWE and created All In. Strange how history works.

Oliver
09-12-2018, 06:34 AM
Weirdly, I thought we already had a Cody thread.

I always liked Cody. I wasn't super surprised that he requested his release from WWE, but his career there will almost always show that he put his all behind everything he did in that company. Legacy, he made work, Dashing he made incredible especially after the nose break, he was a good to great IC champion (and I don't personally feel that gets acknowledged enough), the Rhodes Scholars stuff was splendid, Brotherhood stuff was spectacular, and early Stardust was excellent too. It's such a shame that WWE didn't see the worth in him, because I think he's the kind of guy they need in the main event scene on one program or another - just someone willing to throw their all behind what they're doing.

I suppose it's no surprise that he's succeeding when you consider the above dedication to making things work for him. I do wonder if he'll end up back with WWE, but he probably has no need to do so right now, and may never need to. I think he is reported as having made more money in one year as an independent than he ever did in a year working for WWE, which says a lot.

The fact he's getting some shine on the NWA title pleases me hugely.

Prime Time
09-12-2018, 12:55 PM
Weirdly, I thought we already had a Cody thread.


Nuked in the reset. I guess the All In thread probably doubled up for a while.

I too liked Cody for a long time. Didn't really like the Stardust period but appreciated him trying to make a go of it, but liked most of his other stuff.

Powder
11-30-2018, 09:27 AM
I bet the WWE has been kicking themselves for not utilizing Cody. He became a huge star out of the WWE and put on his own show of All In, and now possibly, possibly creating a new promotion in All Elite Wrestling.

But what probably really burn the WWE's ass, is that Cody has been a major part of the entire season of Arrow this season. he was on nearly every episode, and while his character will no longer be on it moving forward, the WWE could have used this to propel him into the spotlight even further. The promote the hell out of the Miz being in the Marine 6, straight to DVD that no one watches, but Arrow is still a HUGE show and Cody was on 6 episodes.

mizfan
11-30-2018, 01:43 PM
WWE is rolling in so much money I doubt they are losing sleep over it, but it definitely highlights that WWE's judgment of who should be a star and who shouldn't is pretty flawed.

Read that JBL sent some criticism Cody's way on twitter, possibly while drunk. :rolleyes:

Prime Time
06-27-2019, 06:43 AM
Just updating this with some of Cody's upcoming commitments.

Fyter Fest vs Darby Allin
Fight for the Fallen w/Dustin vs Young Bucks

mizfan
06-27-2019, 03:07 PM
Pretty excited for both of these. I think Darby Allin has the potential to be one of AEW's key talents and with Cody riding in off the Dustin match, there are a number of ways to go. I've really enjoyed Dustin and Cody tagging in the past as well, and while I'm not the biggest Young Bucks I do think they're better when faced with a team that's stylistically different from them, which Cody and Dustin definitely will be.

SirSam
06-28-2019, 10:33 AM
I'm very interesting in Darby Allin too. His promo a few weeks back on one of the YouTube shows was incredible real character potential.

I wonder if he picks up a surprise win? Would certainly be a big upset but would really establish him as a big deal.

mizfan
06-28-2019, 02:04 PM
I think there's rich potential in that idea. Cody just came off a bloodbath and is distracted looking ahead to the next two events, and based on the Road To videos maybe didn't know precisely what he was getting into. It's not a must for Darby to win but it's definitely a must for me for him to take Cody to the limit at a minimum, this is their chance to introduce this guy with a major bang.

Prime Time
10-25-2019, 05:13 PM
Is Cody going to win the belt at Full Gear, and if not, what's next?

Powder
10-25-2019, 05:49 PM
He should lose and become HHH. Run the company and only wrestle at major events.

mizfan
10-26-2019, 12:38 PM
Why would they essentially bench one of their most popular acts just as he is reaching his peak?

I think AEW is in a good spot where he could win the title and go on a great run, or he could lose and they milk his eventual title win for a later date.

LK3185
10-26-2019, 03:59 PM
Also Tony Khan is ultimately the one in charge. I think Cody and the other members of elite play a big part in the process but Khan signs the checks.

I don't think its too much strain on Cody to wrestle on the shows and given what they do with him, I imagine he's having the most fun in his career. Cody's stuff is the best thing on the show for me. Pretty much exactly what i want out of wrestling.

PEN15v2
10-26-2019, 05:36 PM
Agreed with LK. Cody is the best part of every AEW show I've watched. He's got the mindset that the story is more important than the action, which is what I prefer.

Prime Time
10-26-2019, 05:50 PM
There are dozens of people you could take off that show and make me more likely to check it out, but Cody ain't one of them.

Powder
10-27-2019, 02:57 PM
Why would they essentially bench one of their most popular acts just as he is reaching his peak?

I think AEW is in a good spot where he could win the title and go on a great run, or he could lose and they milk his eventual title win for a later date.

Because everyone knows that Cody is one of the driving forces behind AEW, and one of the main people in charge of creative. And Cody winning the Title just sounds like Russo booking himself to win the WCW title. If Cody was to win the title ever, it should be well after AEW is established, not when it is still new. Cody, The Bucks and Omega, should be kept away from the titles until the company has its footing. Otherwise it has an appearance of the four of them only created the company to make themselves world champions. I know it isn't, and you know it isn't, but perception can become reality.

I mean, they already named the company after themselves. The Elite...All Elite Wrestling.

Oliver
10-28-2019, 06:54 AM
But then you're really limiting your choices of having an high profile champion to follow Jericho during AEWs establishing phase. Arguably there are only four people on the roster other than Jericho that could hold that belt and continue to bring a big dose of profile to the show - Cody, Omega, Moxley, and PAC. Others would almost all have a risk associated with them. And while AEW is going to have to take that risk at some point, they need probably another 9-12 months before they can do that.

I'm not saying the title goes to Cody now, I think I'd leave it on Jericho. But if they're going to run a lot of shows and have the AEW title defended on them or TV regularly they're going to have to, at some point in the next year, flip the belt to someone before they're staring down the barrel of a 12 month Jericho title run, and Cody or Omega should certainly be a name in the hat based on the current position of the company and their profiles.

That's also not to say that someone like Allin or similar shouldn't have a challenge for the title on TV, for the record, just that the most logical next champs are those with the name value to continue to build the brand.

Once they've got that established is when it's time to pull a riskier move and use a Hangman, Janela, Spears or similar as the champion. But until then I think AEW needs to have a couple of title changes and I would certainly say that one of them should be Cody.

Prime Time
10-28-2019, 07:03 AM
From where I'm sitting there's a risk going to anyone not named Cody/Moxley next. Of course, if you leave it on Jericho for a while longer (and why wouldn't you, he's getting way more attention than anyone else right now) then that gives you change to build up other people to get into that bracket - but if the title were to change hands this Wednesday, say, then the only two people who are really there are Cody and Moxley, and the latter is as much trading off his WWE profile as anything he's done there.

Long story short - they have too few alternatives to Cody at his level to bench him like that.

Powder
10-28-2019, 07:24 AM
Moxley is the biggest name they have on their roster AND he is the only other (not including Hager) former main stream US based promotion World Champion. I say mainstream US based b/c that is where AEW is based and the market they are trying to conquer.

So I guess what would be good is to have Jericho remain Shamp-e-on (You can't type a Frech accent lol) for a few more months, and let the Moxley/Omega feud continue. Then AEW should have Moxley win that feud and eventually challenge Jericho for the title and win it.

That would be the best scenario.

Down the line, if Hager is done with Bellator, he is you next credible threat. He is so much bigger than anyone else, has the MMA cred, and the fact that for better or worse he is a former Chmapion. He could move into a feud with the newly crowned champ of Moxley.

Oliver
10-28-2019, 07:41 AM
I do think Moxley should be next. Very easy pick, though, and I don't think there's much argument that they should get another 3-4 months out of Jericho as 'le shamp-e-on' (I like it, Powder) before flipping to a change.

mizfan
10-28-2019, 11:37 AM
Cody winning the Title just sounds like Russo booking himself to win the WCW title.

I've got to say, I don't see this at all. Russo was a non-wrestler and a bomb as an onscreen personality and a ratings kilelr as a character that nobody wanted to see. Cody is perhaps the single hottest name in AEW. The only thing they have in common is they both had influence backstage.

There's always some risk of ego running out of control when someone in power backstage also holds the top title, it's true, but over the history of wrestling there have been many periods where it worked out great. All you need is for that person to be legitimately hot (as Cody is) and for that person to be able to put company health in front of ego (as I hope Cody can).

And if it did go south, it's not like there's nobody to override him.

I don't think he HAS to win the title, but he definitely could without any obvious downside.

PEN15v2
10-28-2019, 11:49 AM
Bingo

Cult Icon
10-28-2019, 12:04 PM
Haven't we seen enough yet to say that The Elite, at least right now, aren't going to run wild with ego in terms of booking? The Young Bucks have lost their last two big matches to The Lucha Brothers and Private Party. Cody drew with Darby Allin and took the pin in the Fight for the Fallen match despite having a big match with Shawn Spears coming up (while Dustin Rhodes, his partner, had nothing booking). Kenny Omega lost to Chris Jericho out of the gate and then lost to Pac to immediately establish him. I think it's pretty clear these guys aren't just thinking "I need to go over!" so if Cody were to win the title I don't think you'd see him hog it and I don't think it be a Hogan or Russo situation. It be because they think it's best for the promotion and quite frankly it would be a great idea given how over Cody is and how well he's done in each match. Other than maybe the Fight for the Fallen tag (which was problematic because of the length more than the work) he's impressed me every time out.

Now having said all this, Jericho should retain. He's been even more entertaining to me than Cody has, he's still a bigger name and I think there's more you can do with him as champion for the time being. Cody will also lose nothing from it and will likely transition into a feud just as hot with one of the other Inner Circle members or even MJF. That feud is coming and it's going to be HOT after MJF makes the turn. I'm really excited for that one.

Powder
10-28-2019, 12:06 PM
I've got to say, I don't see this at all. Russo was a non-wrestler and a bomb as an onscreen personality and a ratings kilelr as a character that nobody wanted to see. Cody is perhaps the single hottest name in AEW. The only thing they have in common is they both had influence backstage.

There's always some risk of ego running out of control when someone in power backstage also holds the top title, it's true, but over the history of wrestling there have been many periods where it worked out great. All you need is for that person to be legitimately hot (as Cody is) and for that person to be able to put company health in front of ego (as I hope Cody can).

And if it did go south, it's not like there's nobody to override him.

I don't think he HAS to win the title, but he definitely could without any obvious downside.

Again the downside is that the perception could be that Cody couldn't make it in the WWE. He felt/continues to feel that the WWE misused him, and never gave him that main event push culminating in a World Title run. Since Cody left, he has bad mouthed the WWE, and then he and his buddies started their own company, and in 4 weeks of broadcast, they have openly taken shots at the WWE on live TV. So the perception, regardless of how over Cody is, is that he couldn't make it in the WWE, so he started his own company so he can be World Champion.

Hence the Rollins shots at Omega calling AEW the minor leagues, etc.

I would also speculate that if/when Cody does win the AEW Title, the WWE or someone who works for them will take that shot at Cody. "He couldn't cut it here, so he created his own company so he could be the Champion."

Again, I am not saying that Cody created AEW for that reason. Nor do I believe it. I am just stating that perception can lead to reality, and Cody or the Bucks for that matter winning the AEW title (or tag belts) can and will have that perception.


Haven't we seen enough yet to say that The Elite, at least right now, aren't going to run wild with ego in terms of booking? The Young Bucks have lost their last two big matches to The Lucha Brothers and Private Party. Cody drew with Darby Allin and took the pin in the Fight for the Fallen match despite having a big match with Shawn Spears coming up (while Dustin Rhodes, his partner, had nothing booking). Kenny Omega lost to Chris Jericho out of the gate and then lost to Pac to immediately establish him. I think it's pretty clear these guys aren't just thinking "I need to go over!" so if Cody were to win the title I don't think you'd see him hog it and I don't think it be a Hogan or Russo situation. It be because they think it's best for the promotion and quite frankly it would be a great idea given how over Cody is and how well he's done in each match. Other than maybe the Fight for the Fallen tag (which was problematic because of the length more than the work) he's impressed me every time out.

Now having said all this, Jericho should retain. He's been even more entertaining to me than Cody has, he's still a bigger name and I think there's more you can do with him as le Shamp-e-on for the time being. Cody will also lose nothing from it and will likely transition into a feud just as hot with one of the other Inner Circle members or even MJF. That feud is coming and it's going to be HOT after MJF makes the turn. I'm really excited for that one.

Fixed

Oliver
10-28-2019, 12:35 PM
MJF seems like a really interesting next choice for Cody. I'm not super up to date on his work but have heard excellent things about him, plus he has a good look that deserves a slap in the face.

mizfan
10-30-2019, 05:14 PM
I actually hope they string out the MJF turn as long as possible while still keeping it hot. It's in a special place right now that's hard to acheive in wrestling.

Had an idea that, if nothing else, appeals to me... we all assume eventually an Elite vs. Inner Circle War Games style match is going to happen, right? MJF seems obvious for Team Cody, but for some reason doesn't make the match. I'm not talking about a turn (not right away, at least) but he's either injured (or is he?) or even simply scared off by the Inner Circle at the last minute, and Cody has to sub in Mike "QT" Marshall, who has been Cody's right hand man backstage in all the videos and was once beaten up by Jericho, with seemingly no consequences. Something about the idea of this low card guy joining the team out of pure loyalty, knowing he'll probably get creamed, as MJF sits on the sidelines feels like rich drama to me.

That's probably way too specific to really happen, but it works really well in my head.

Oliver
10-31-2019, 11:38 AM
I can see them doing WarGames. Or some kind of WarGames adjacent match, at least.

I mean, that's Dusty's baby. It would feel right that Cody brought it into AEW, even if NXT has already resurrected it.

Prime Time
01-07-2020, 11:39 AM
I read this somewhere about Cody's current programme...

"MJF said the match will happen at AEW Revolution next month. He says if Cody touches him then the match will not happen at the pay-per-view or ever. MJF also said that Cody has to first beat an opponent of his choosing and that opponent is Wardlow. He added that the match with Wardlow will take place inside of a steel cage. The third stipulation was that he would get to whip Cody 10 times in front of his family."

Powder
01-07-2020, 12:07 PM
Yes to all accounts.

mizfan
01-10-2020, 02:19 PM
We'll see if the terms are agreed to! I'm most curious about the whipping one. I think that'd be tricky to pull off as it is on paper, of course Cody can just take it and come out (hopefully) looking strong ala Tommy Dreamer but I'm not sure if it works that way in practice. But perhaps they'll find a way around it. My favorite part of the bit so far is Arn Anderson pushing back as Cody's manager so perhaps we'll see some kind of negotiation, but it's tricky because MJF seems to hold all the cards (assuming someone in power can't just order him to wrestle Cody as a deus ex machina).

Powder
02-07-2020, 11:10 AM
Brandi poster a picture of Cody's back at least 1 day after, possible from this morning. Looks painful.

mizfan
02-07-2020, 12:37 PM
Hell yes it does... though if this is further confirmation that they are killing off the Nightmare Collective and putting Brandi back with Cody, I'm all for it. I can understand that Brandi wants to make her own mark but they work SO well together as an onscreen couple, and Brandi clearly works better as a human and not a weird witch or whatever she was going for.

Powder
02-07-2020, 01:02 PM
Besides, AEW just wrote off Kong, as she is going to film the final season of Glow. So it is possible that Brandi's Collective is gone.

mizfan
02-07-2020, 02:29 PM
That'd be great in my book. I didn't even really mind them that much but they weren't really over and they were a source of loads of fan complaints. Much better to kill off the group and use the individual pieces where ever they fit better.

Thinking ahead to Cody vs. MJF... who actually wins that match? I'm leaning towards Cody because after all he's been through in the last several months, he needs a feel good win. But part of me is looking at how hot MJF is, and it makes me wonder if they might surprise everyone with the result.

SirSam
02-08-2020, 07:39 AM
I don't think they are writing off the Nightmare Collective, based on that and the two youtube videos of Brandi and her therapist I think they are just taking a new angle.

Still this is the Cody thread so can we speak about the lashes HOLY CRAP THAT WAS A FUCKIN' SEGMENT.

So much drama and built to it and spoke so deeply to both characters and Cody fought his way through it and MJF got more and more frustrated as he saw Cody wouldn't quit - like he would.

Here is my character theory: MJF thinks him and Cody are the same kind of person. He sees Cody with his fancy house, suits, big character and sees himself however the difference is that MJF has to have those things because deep down he doesn't like who he is. He knows he is weak and cowardly so tries to overcome that with his brash exterior. It's why he threw the towel in for Cody, because he would have quit at that point. The lashes showed us and MJF that even though they might look similar Cody is cut from tougher steel. It's why at the start he was gloating, because he thought he'd expose Cody but at the end was furious.

Freakin' great feud and could become something of a mythic segment in the history of AEW.

BTW I think I might turn that character stuff into a column.

mizfan
02-08-2020, 05:30 PM
When it comes to the Nightmare Collective, I think if they're smart they're on their way to ending it, if not right away then in the near future. If it's must Mel being managed by Luther, I guess that's fine?

But hell yes, the lashes thing was incredible. Love your breakdown of how MJF is looking at this situation. The idea that he assumed Cody would quit, or not come out in the first place, because he wouldn't do it and he thinks they're the same, there's some real weight to that. Also LOVED MJF earlier in the show saying Cody was trying to make him into a "walk-behinder", a reference to one of my favorite promos of all time, courtesy of course of Dusty Rhodes himself. Which, by the way, was originally in a story involving Arn Anderson, which makes me still wonder how he's going to fit into this at the end of the day.

PEN15v2
02-09-2020, 12:07 AM
I find the true issue with the Nightmare Collective is that there are more non-wrestler than wrestlers in the group. Mel seems to be the only actual fulltime wrestler at this point, with Kong either out or too old to compete regularly, Brandi as the mouthpiece, and Luther as the male muscle (who might be able to go, but we don't seem to know yet). And if Mel is the only full time in the group...she's not much to bank a stable on.

So no matter the other weaknesses, in the end the stories don't matter because there's no in ring direction for 75% of the group.

To make a WWE comparison, The Authority would be the closest version of this, with Steph and HHH as the mouth pieces, but with a rotating in ring guy they stood behind (Orton being the primary option). The difference is that Orton could go, and Hunter did for the big shows. So no matter how big they talked, the audience knew there was backup in action if needed. This Nightmare Collective don't have that aspect yet. Either establish Luther a bit, or let Mel show some talent, or recruit a better and/or bigger name to be the in ring center piece.

Powder
02-09-2020, 11:02 AM
I find the true issue with the Nightmare Collective is that there are more non-wrestler than wrestlers in the group. Mel seems to be the only actual fulltime wrestler at this point, with Kong either out or too old to compete regularly, Brandi as the mouthpiece, and Luther as the male muscle (who might be able to go, but we don't seem to know yet). And if Mel is the only full time in the group...she's not much to bank a stable on.

So no matter the other weaknesses, in the end the stories don't matter because there's no in ring direction for 75% of the group.

To make a WWE comparison, The Authority would be the closest version of this, with Steph and HHH as the mouth pieces, but with a rotating in ring guy they stood behind (Orton being the primary option). The difference is that Orton could go, and Hunter did for the big shows. So no matter how big they talked, the audience knew there was backup in action if needed. This Nightmare Collective don't have that aspect yet. Either establish Luther a bit, or let Mel show some talent, or recruit a better and/or bigger name to be the in ring center piece.

I hear Rusev is unhappy with his current place. A big guy, who can play a monster, also has so much personality, and eventually he turns on the Collective to break away become a face and get a main event title push. He seems like a perfect guy to build a future around.

PEN15v2
02-09-2020, 11:35 AM
If rumors are true and both parties are interested, it could work. I would bet though that Nightmare Collective is aimed for the women's division, so I believe they'd prefer a female wrestler be the person in this place

mizfan
02-09-2020, 04:15 PM
I think it'd be worth signing Rusev and testing his ceiling, but I think attaching him to an act that fans already don't like would be a needless anchor around his neck.

I would be very much down for a Rusev/Cody match though.

Powder
02-10-2020, 08:27 AM
I think that if the Nightmare Collective is for the Women's Division, or attaching him to an act that may not be over with the fans is not a good idea, then you have to bring Rusev in as a face, and have him begin guys like Spears, The Butcher and Blade, Wardlow, then in a few months have him challenge Moxley.

We have all talked out this before, but there really isn't anyone in AEW that are the 'big imposing wrestlers'. So if/when Rusev makes his debut, how does he not run through the roster, with everyone except Moxley?

AEW needs size on their roster, who are active wrestlers. Hager and Wardlow have done nothing, and Luchasaurus is just not it.


Besides, what would Rusev be called in AEW or anywhere else for that matter? I'm almost 100% positive that "Rusev" is trademarked by the WWE, so does he go by Miroslav (his given name)?

mizfan
02-10-2020, 02:21 PM
Miroslav actually sounds like a pretty good name to me.

As for his size, I honestly didn't realize he was billed at 300 lbs but regardless I don't think size will really be an issue. Assuming his recent popularity holds up it'll be easy to push him to get a lot of wins based on his size, and when he matches up with the big names there are loads of ways to make the match competitive. Cody is about Shawn Michaels size, for a point of comparison.

Prime Time
02-10-2020, 02:38 PM
Maybe they could channel Khabib in the way they present him, give him a legitimate fighter vibe.

Team Farrell
02-10-2020, 03:03 PM
Maybe they could channel Khabib in the way they present him, give him a legitimate fighter vibe.

I don't believe that AEW could pull that off.

Prime Time
02-10-2020, 03:20 PM
No. Perhaps not.

PEN15v2
02-10-2020, 03:40 PM
I don't believe that AEW could pull that off.

I think AEW could, but because the fans are shown to be ultra forgiving. They'll stay quiet if there's nothing of value to an idea, but they'll cheer Rusev simply because he's not in WWE anymore.

Prime Time
02-10-2020, 03:52 PM
That's the reason why when I'm thinking about whether it'll work, I don't really think about how their superfans will react to it. Because it looks like trying to gauge how funny a comic is if they only play to crowds full of stoned people.

Team Farrell
02-10-2020, 03:57 PM
I don't know how the fans would react to it, I just don't think that the booking arm of AEW could pull off a serious fighter type character.

Pac got to kick Orange Cassidy in the face. But what happens when Rusev is booked in a match involving Best Friends or Dark Order? Even Tully had to play along and be a part of the joke. Their World Champion was eating roll-ups by a pre-teen. MJF, in the middle of his big heat run, got thrown into the pool like a brone.

I don't trust for a second that they could book a charismatic guy like Rusev as a legitimate athletic beast without going goofy "ha ha" with him.

PEN15v2
02-10-2020, 03:58 PM
Prime, fair comparison, but that's AEW audience.

Speaking of comedians, I was in the audience for Jim Gaffigan's recent taping on Friday. My fiance indicated that my laugh will definitely be heard when it's released. I don't think she was complimenting me either...

COACH, the AEW humor really is putrid.

mizfan
02-10-2020, 04:19 PM
I guess I'm not seeing why they wouldn't be able to pull it off. We've seen grappler and fighter types coexisting on cards with lighter characters for quite a while now in the independent promotions where a lot of AEW guys emerged from. The dynamic isn't exactly the same in AEW, granted, but Coach himself referenced PAC, who has been a pretty straightforward ass kicker despite running across the likes of Orange Cassidy. Sometimes heels get clowned in silly spots, Ric Flair was pantsed on a nightly basis, so MJF getting tossed in a pool being a problem doesn't hold much water with me (ha, ha). I look at a guy like Moxley for comparison and I'm pretty sure neither AEW nor the fans would struggle or be thrown off if he was portrayed as a fighter type.

Or maybe I'm just an ultra forgiving stoned superfan. ;)

Prime Time
02-10-2020, 04:20 PM
Yeah, I don't disagree. I guess what I mean to say is that I'm already implicitly thinking 'could this grow the audience' because clearing the low bar set by the superfans is hardly challenging.

And that post above sums up why I'm glad I've never tried to watch a whole show of theirs.

Edit: Coach's post above, not Mizzie's which was simultaneously posted with mine.

As for Flair, I'm willing to bet if he did lose the pants, it wasn't on TV when he was trying to build heat for a major angle. And if there is a weird example that you can find, that'd be shit too.

Team Farrell
02-10-2020, 05:02 PM
As for Flair, I'm willing to bet if he did lose the pants, it wasn't on TV when he was trying to build heat for a major angle. And if there is a weird example that you can find, that'd be shit too.

See, this cannot be overstated.

MJF is an over heel in the middle of a huge heat angle, and for chuckles on a boat he was made to look like a fool. They circumvented the "you can't touch me" stipulation for no real reason other than to make MJF show ass.

He still has his heat, but if MJF hadn't been made to look foolish at any point before Cody gets his big win, it feels that much bigger.

Flair got his trunks pulled down, but Dusty's friends didn't do it to him on TV the week after the Horsemen broke Dusty's arm.

Heels have to show ass (no pun), but there's a time and a place. The whipping was a great heat spot, but I'd also consider it Cody's hope spot in the angle (because he refused to give up). They didn't need the pool spot and it only takes away from a strong heel.

Prime Time
02-10-2020, 07:06 PM
Y'know, it's just occurred to me that video of him going in to the pool reached me on twitter. The whipping didn't. In fact, very few of the things that might appeal to me that I hear about appear in my timeline, but the bad comedy seems to cut through most Thursdays, no matter how much I try to avoid it.

Oliver
02-11-2020, 06:24 AM
So, a though I've had recently - is Cody a man out of time? By which I don't mean his race is run and he should no longer wrestle. I mean is he just a bit old school? I think about the style of his recent matches, the praise he gets and the terms around that, and even down to the way his feuds are built and stories are told and it feels completely atypical of this era - but I think about 30-35 years ago this would have just been really standard stuff, you know?

And his matches - I'm not expecting Cody to start throwing destroyers with reckless abandon as other 'modern' wrestlers seem to want to do (and you can use any big spotty move in the place of destroyers). Outside of that dive he took against Jericho, I can't remember him doing anything that really sits in that 'big spot' category in his AEW matches. But he is going to tell a story in the ring - that in itself feels against the grain in modern wrestling, but very much a throwback.

I wonder if this was just always the case with Cody, which is why his stuff didn't work in WWE as well. Looking back at his best WWE matches, they're the ones where he told a simple story really well - they're not renowned for their high profile spots, but for their careful storytelling. Specifically thinking about the match he had with Goldust at...Fast Lane, was it? I want to say 2015. That thing had this great story running through it, and yet had a crowd that just didn't get it because the match had no flash to it.

Prime Time
02-11-2020, 07:20 AM
Yeah, I don't think you'll get a lot of argument about that. He knows what works and does it, which is why his stuff is some of the only stuff on that show that gets positive reactions more widely rather than just in the committed hardcore fans.

mizfan
02-11-2020, 04:32 PM
Agree to disagree on the pool thing, I suppose. The way I see it is MJF betrayed Cody and set up a lot of elaborate stipulations to twist him in knots before getting his hands on him, Cody outsmarted him and used his friends to embarrass MJF, giving MJF a chance to create a branch feud with Cody’s allies and giving him more motivation to get vicious in the build up, as we saw in the 10 lashes segment. I get what you guys are saying, you don’t want a big heel to look too weak when building up to a big match, but it was a momentary embarrassment and a feel good moment for Cody in a feud that so far hasn’t gone very well for him. Maybe you save MJF’s first taste of comeuppance, maybe you cash it in during the build as a tease for more. I think there’s plenty of value and precedent for both.

To Ollie’s point, it’s very much my hope that Cody’s style will in the end not be seen as a throwback but rather a focal point in the style of wrestling shifting in the coming decade. The 2010s became so incredibly saturated with super-workrate style matches that I think fans are really hungry for the kind of matches Cody is bringing to the table. That’s my hope anyway, compare the way fans reacted to Cody/Goldust in 2015 compared to Cody/Dustin in 2019 and it’s night and day, and it’s not like the latter was an athletic masterpiece or anything.

PEN15v2
02-11-2020, 05:51 PM
Mizfan, you can't compare 2015 to 2019 versions of that feud. Cody is the king of AEW, so anything he does gets priority. In 2015 WWE, he was midcard at best. And it's not because WWE "misused him," but because he was low priority.

I wish WWE would incorporate more Cody style ideas, and I wish AEW did too. His work with Dustin was the highlight of 2019, in my opinion. Best match and likely best angle of the year in any promotion. But a big factor was because it was big fish in smaller pond.

Oliver
02-12-2020, 05:11 AM
I agree with Pen, to some extent, in that I think he got given a real focus in pursuing that Dustin match. I also think there's probably a lot of fans of AEW who would quite liked to have seen those two have something extended in WWE, so there was a bit of a thirst for it. I know when they had the Fast Lane match in 2015 it seemed to set them up for something more which then just got merged into something multi-man (ladder match, maybe?) at the Mania after and then was basically dropped. From what I recall at the time there was quite a bit of disappointment around that happening.

SirSam
02-13-2020, 07:38 AM
Funnily enough Oliver I have a column half penned called Jon Moxley & Cody Rhodes: So Old School It's Cool talking about just how crazy old school their current directions are but how on force of personality they have been able to not just pull them off but get them mega over.

PEN15v2
02-13-2020, 11:39 AM
For all my lack of interest in AEW due to their wrestling style, I'm always impressed with how old school they go for at least 1 match per PPV. Not only is that match usually the MOTN, but in the case of Cody vs Dustin, it's MOTY.

mizfan
02-13-2020, 05:08 PM
Of course some elements of 2015 and 2019 are apples and oranges, but my point was both matches likely feature the same amount of “athletic” based spots. In 2015 the crowd was blah, in 2019 they were hyped because so much had been invested in the match, and that’s one of Cody’s biggest strengths. He tries hard to invest in his matches beyond a physical showcase, and in AEW he has the freedom to do that more than ever, and it’s great to see how fans respond to it.

The fact that, like Pen said, these kinds of matches are often getting the most positive praise of the night is really encouraging to me that we could see a shift in what wrestlers value. We’re just so, so over-saturated on that hyper-athlete style, in my opinion.