PDA

View Full Version : Jon Moxley Thread



SirSam
05-10-2018, 07:39 AM
Let's talk some Lunatic Fringe people.

Dean is my favourite wrestler, possibly of all time, he is old school as you could get this side of 2010, sells like a madman, can swing from funny to dead serious in a second on the mic and has a the kind of IDGAF swagger that you just can't teach.

For my money the guy has been underappreciated by the wrestling world since his Brock Lesnar match in 2016 but with his abscence hopefully the heart will grow fonder when he does come back, I haven't seen any injury updates since April so who knows where he is up to in his recovery, I don't mind the time away although I cannot wait to see him return, especially with Seth in the kind of form he is in right now.

Most fans seem to think he will be coming back and quickly turning to the darker side of his character but what do you guys think?

Prime Time
05-10-2018, 07:52 AM
There's an opinion out there that the missed the boat on Dean by not pulling the trigger on him at the right time, insisting on focusing on Reigns instead.

I go along with that for the most part. During The Shield I saw him as the star to come out of it, and while I'm pleasantly surprised with how well Seth has caught on with the mainstream audience I haven't seen anything to change my mind that Dean was 'the guy' of the three.

SirSam
05-10-2018, 08:05 AM
As a big Dean Ambrose fan I absolutely agree with you, not capitalising on his popularity on the road to Mania 32 and have him win the championship there or at the Royal Rumble before it really was a mistake looking back on things. His character really was the one that had actually been struggling with The Authority since The Shield split and putting Reigns in the position of the Anti-Authoritarian hero was just too much cognitive dissonance considering he was so clearly the pet project of the CEO of the company.

I still think there is time for him to become the star he should have been, the guy is only in his early 30s and they still haven't explored his full range, that main roster heel run could be the doorway to big things.

If not, well the guy makes a hell of a workhorse upper mid card staple and his character is just a natural foil to so many of the WWE's best: Rollins, Owens, The Miz, even Reigns, who he has never had a full feud against.

Oliver
05-10-2018, 08:58 AM
I think they could have taken the title off of Triple H at Roadblock. It wasn't what they wanted to do, obviously, but Ambrose was hot as heck opposite Trips and the match itself was probably one of Dean's best singles bouts in WWE, outside of his Rollins interactions.

A heel turn feels like it's been talked about or desired a lot since the Rollins redemption angle started, and maybe that's where they still go - I'm still quite in favour of Ambrose coming back and attacking Rollins for moving on without him as a partner despite being his 'brother'.

mizfan
05-10-2018, 02:24 PM
I feel like they lost a tremendous amount of momentum with Dean over the past few years. Part of it was making him too goofy and losing touch with that dangerous edge that got him over in the first place. Going back to watch his FCW feud with Regal is a revelation of what he could do when let off the leash, but maybe now he's not in that place mentally anymore. I do think his wrestling can be a bit rough, his offense doesn't exactly wow me, though he can be a great seller if you don't mind a guy who's a little over the top.

Agree with the idea that he was RED HOT at one point and WWE totally failed to pull the trigger, and when they did it was when he had lost a lot of his appeal. I think he could be a true unbalanced Roddy Piper type but we haven't seen that potential on display in a while.

I know Pete hates the idea, but I really do think a heel turn would serve him well. He was falling off as a face when he left and he's got plenty of believable motivation, plus we've never seen him as a heel as a singles act on the main roster.

Prime Time
05-11-2018, 04:49 AM
The only reason I hate the idea is that I see the re-turn as something that would have to happen so soon, if it worked. People want to cheer the guy, that much is clear. If the heel turn takes off he'll be hot again and they'll flip him.

It's a standard trope of modern wrestling and it's almost always bad from a story perspective, and I just don't trust them to pull it off.

It'd probably work in terms of the crowd you already have, but I think taking the obvious short cut would probably cut off any ability to pull in people from outside that. There's something that he's shown evidence of that a series of quick turns could potentially snuff out.


Then again depending on the reaction to him when he comes back, maybe it is already too late for that. I heard he was coming back heel anyway, so my take on it is probably moot now.

SirSam
05-11-2018, 11:23 AM
If he comes back and makes it a continuation of the original split, then I don't think it would work, if it was becuase of how his 'brothers' left him and didn't even avenge him after he was injured at Joe's hands then I can get on board with that.

Prime Time
05-20-2018, 06:40 AM
Sounds like this is a go for sometime over the next 6-8 weeks. And everywhere I look it does sound like it's going to be as a heel. So it'll probably work in front of the existing paying punters but I think it'll be another potential breakout guy that we've added to the fumble count.

SirSam
05-20-2018, 07:27 AM
If it is with Rollins I think that they would have the highest chance of success, those guys have off the charts chemistry and from all accounts are happy to call it out when they don't think what they have been given is up to scratch.

That said right now the WWE is on a pretty ordinary patch of creative so if there was a time to mess it up it would be now.

Where did you see the 6-8 weeks?

Prime Time
05-20-2018, 07:33 AM
That's my extrapolation because I've seen a few places say 'in time for Summerslam'. 6-8 weeks would be early to mid-July, so depends how much hype they want to give it really. It could be longer than that, if they go with minimal build-up.

SirSam
05-20-2018, 07:48 AM
I feel like all the hype they would need would be for him to come down the ramp after one of Rollins open matches, hit Dirty Deeds and cue music.

Prime Time
05-20-2018, 07:59 AM
They probably could. That's not the norm, they usually do a few weeks of interviews so that's why I'm expecting to see him in July sometime. I'd guess it'll be more like the 8 weeks if they go straight into the turn, if he has a couple of weeks as a feint then it'll be sooner.

SirSam
05-21-2018, 09:34 AM
Maybe we will even get a 24 on Ambrose like the Rollins one.

mizfan
05-21-2018, 12:55 PM
Sounds like this is a go for sometime over the next 6-8 weeks. And everywhere I look it does sound like it's going to be as a heel. So it'll probably work in front of the existing paying punters but I think it'll be another potential breakout guy that we've added to the fumble count.

I think the thing is, Ambrose has already been fumbled terribly. He was white hot as a babyface at one point but he's been lukewarm for the past couple years straight. If anyone needs a change upon coming back, it's him. Hoping they bring him in as a face to back up Seth, only to quickly execute the turn and really go all in on Ambrose as a heel.

Prime Time
07-16-2018, 09:19 AM
^ Never really responded to that but I guess if you think he's been killed to the point of there being no breakout possibility left in him, then you do whatever because it won't really matter. And yeah, you might as well turn him then. And turn him back when you want. Because honestly with the crowd they've got left now, who is going to care? Everyone is too busy playing armchair quarterback to give a damn about anything they put out anyway.

Anyway, lot of chatter about the Ambrose return out there though most places indicating it's been pushed back to after Summerslam and more likely September. Though there's a couple of whispers that it could be *at* the event, rather than after it.

blunt force balls.
08-02-2018, 02:50 AM
Seems to me that the Rollins-Ziggler/ McIntyre feud is in place to set up the return of the Titty Master to even the numbers

I know some are suggesting he turn heel immediately but I think Death (Dean & Seth) can save revive Raw's poor tag division for a while. They could oppose Ziggler & Drew, then go after the tag belts (which fingers crossed will be held by The Revival then), and when the inevitable split happens they could drop them to Authors Of Pain or American Alpha. Basically, I think they should tell the story they wanted to last year before Dean's injury (which I hope this year leads to the Shield triple threat for the Universal title)

SirSam
08-02-2018, 05:50 AM
Seems to me that the Rollins-Ziggler/ McIntyre feud is in place to set up the return of the Titty Master to even the numbers

I know some are suggesting he turn heel immediately but I think Death (Dean & Seth) can save revive Raw's poor tag division for a while. They could oppose Ziggler & Drew, then go after the tag belts (which fingers crossed will be held by The Revival then), and when the inevitable split happens they could drop them to Authors Of Pain or American Alpha. Basically, I think they should tell the story they wanted to last year before Dean's injury (which I hope this year leads to the Shield triple threat for the Universal title)

Yeah, he will get a natural pop coming back and going straight for the heel turn may be better if it is slightly delayed. His stories with Rollins have been really good slow burns, look at how long they teased out that fist bump last year and the story was so much better for that.

However people are very ready for a heel turn and too often don't want to wait for the story to be told at its own pace. I'd worry if they pushed it out too long that people would sour on it and when they do make the move people would say they are over it (kind of like how some people are saying they have waited too long on Bayley/Sasha).

blunt force balls.
08-02-2018, 06:28 AM
Yeah, he will get a natural pop coming back and going straight for the heel turn may be better if it is slightly delayed. His stories with Rollins have been really good slow burns, look at how long they teased out that fist bump last year and the story was so much better for that.

However people are very ready for a heel turn and too often don't want to wait for the story to be told at its own pace. I'd worry if they pushed it out too long that people would sour on it and when they do make the move people would say they are over it (kind of like how some people are saying they have waited too long on Bayley/Sasha).

Ambrose and Rollins together though was a hugely popular act so they will be find for a few months. Plus I think it's a feud where they need to reach boiling point at a big event like Rumble or Wrestlemania

SirSam
08-07-2018, 07:39 AM
Pretty funny that they actually had to specifically announce that Ambrose wasn't going to be Rollins surprise partner on Raw today.

THE PEOPLE ARE READY!!!!

LK3185
08-07-2018, 05:41 PM
Should be back after Summerslam i hope

blunt force balls.
08-07-2018, 11:17 PM
I would imagine it will be at Summerslam. In fact, I wouldn't be suprised if it's announced ahead of time that he's gonna be Rolllins back up

Benjamin Button
08-12-2018, 02:38 PM
I first saw John Moxly on the independent circuit, I hoped he'd come to WWE and change wrestling. Then, in FCW as Dean Ambrose he still had enough Moxly to be unique.

The Sheild were a great alliance, but they were all for one. I feel nobody gave more than Ambrose. Nobody received more than Reigns. I don't know with his wife-beater and jeggings that Dean ever got back all he was before the alliance? He was disturbed and serious. He was the Heath Ledger Joker and Clock Work Orange wrapped up in one.

I miss pre-shield Dean.

Team Farrell
08-15-2018, 10:56 AM
Ambrose came back looking grizzled and about ten years older...and that's a good thing.

LWO4Life
08-15-2018, 11:20 AM
I agree. I liked messy hair Dean, but truth is he's 32, he has to change his style because he's such a workhorse everyday wrestler that his old style will start to catch up with him, and his new, bigger, older look will do great especially if they turn him heel and make him a ground and pound brawler. His new look, if followed with a more ground and pound style, will extend his career for another 10-15 years.

SirSam
08-18-2018, 07:58 AM
Yeah I am loving Dean's new look, it is only a few small tweaks, the mannerisms and twitches are still all there, he is certainly still Dean Ambrose but he now also looks like the guy you call when you want someone taught a lesson. BAD ASS.

With his in ring style, I don't think too much will need to be changed for his longevity, he was able to go at the rate he did becuase he already made those tweaks early in his WWE career. Just thinking about his repertoire, the biggest bumps he takes are superplexes, the elbow off the top rope and suicide dive. Normally all are done very safely and he keeps the odd big bump for big occasions.

Not sure where they are headed but whatever they choose I'm happy with a sllloooowwwww burn. He is the guy that got 5 weeks of TV our of a fist bump and was the most interesting thing on TV.

Long story short, it is great to have my fav wrestler back.

Oliver
08-20-2018, 10:22 AM
Is it just me that thinks he looks a little bit like Triple H?

SirSam
08-21-2018, 09:57 AM
He does have that look about him particularly now his hair is short and he is a little more cut.

SirSam
10-18-2018, 12:19 PM
Had to bump this thread.

Is there a more complex character in the WWE at the moment than Dean Ambrose. The bloke is a Gordian Knott of mixed emotions and motives and it is riveting tv.

SirSam
10-24-2018, 01:20 AM
I feel bad for bumping this thread but I think given what happened on Raw it is the appropriate place to talk.

Seems the WWE have finally decided to pull the Dean Hell Turn trigger and what a stunning night to do it.

I wrote a whole column about why I think it was good but the short notes are they I think the timing, the performance and the finer details all combined to make this one of the better plot twists we have seen in the WWE.

I have my thoughts but am very excited to hear why he turned, I'm guessing on Raw next week.

LifeLostInRewind
10-24-2018, 05:10 AM
And when Reigns comes back in a year or two, maybe longer, they will not even address it.

I am pretty excited to hear why he turned. I wonder if he'll reference when Seth turned on the shield years ago.

Prime Time
11-11-2018, 12:45 PM
Can't tell how this is going without watching (and I'm not that desperate to know). I see people talking about it being great but they seem to be a small group and I've not seen anyone outside a handful really talking about Dean since the turn.

Are people into it or has the quiet in the thread told it's own story?

LK3185
11-11-2018, 12:56 PM
They've done the standard 'Bad guy doesn't explain himself, hits finisher and runs' Its not bad but its not reinventing the wheel either.

SirSam
11-11-2018, 09:44 PM
I think that kind of line does a disservice to the 'acting' (for lack of a better term) that is going into this feud. Dean's initial Jeckl and Hyde like performance when he turned immediately turned the crowd on him and his sneering contempt for Seth and the crowd has been really well contrast with Seth's reaction. They are slowly bringing their shared history into things and Seth's time on the mic has been particularly compelling as he has gone from contrition to anger at Dean's actions.

Even outside the deeper performance elements I like to dive into every time either of their music hits the crowd pops. Too many long awaited heel turns get very little reaction and this is absolutely not suffering that fate. To me this means they must being doing something right.

Powder
11-19-2018, 10:50 PM
The WWE, through Corey Graves, is pumping Renee Young on commentary for information about Ambrose. She is getting more annoyed each week especially tonight I can totally see her snapping and joining her husband.

If that is NOT the plan, then they have to leave her alone.

LifeLostInRewind
11-19-2018, 11:07 PM
I can't see Renee going heel, tbh. That would be weird.

Powder
11-19-2018, 11:18 PM
I know, which is why it is more and more awkward when Graves presses her about Dean. You can actually hear and see her frustration.

LifeLostInRewind
11-19-2018, 11:43 PM
So she would be a valet if they went that route?

Powder
11-20-2018, 12:15 AM
I don't know. Maybe a loud mouth outspoken wife?

Kind of like Maryse mixed with a little Paul Heyman.

LifeLostInRewind
11-20-2018, 12:31 AM
I really don't like how subtle they are about Renee and Dean's relationship. I may be misremembering, but I am pretty sure their relationship was made apparent during Dean's feud with The Miz a year or two ago,,,,

Powder
11-20-2018, 08:25 AM
it was, but the WWE is hoping for short memories, and that is my point. Renee gets annoyed on how Graves keeps pressing her about how "she knows Ambrose better than anyone". I do not think Renee is that good of an actor, so she might be actually annoyed. If it is all part of the production, then kudos for the slow burn, if not, then the WWE either needs to come right out and expose that they are married formally, or leave her alone.

Also, if Graves keeps hinting at it, and Rollins "knows Ambrose so well" then why didn't he come out to the broadcast booth and confront Renee and have her call her husband to the ring? I know that is a heel thing to do, but just asking Renee to make a call, is fair.

Prime Time
11-22-2018, 10:01 AM
I always assumed that wasn't so much a WWE thing as Graves just needling her for the sake of it. But I suppose they could step in and warn him off, though making people uncomfortable certainly tracks with Vince's sense of humour.

Anyway, on the topic of making people uncomfortable it's been reported that unless the backlash proves too much you might hear a lot more of references to Roman Reigns' illness in the Ambrose/Rollins feud. That's supposed to be 'part of the plan' going forward, despite the initial revulsion in some quarters.

Powder
11-22-2018, 10:35 AM
I read that too, but that is the worst kind of poor taste. Coming off the heels of October, where the WWE loudly, and proudly, support Breast Cancer Awareness month, and talking all about how devastating an illness cancer is. Using Reigns' leukemia as a tool to move the feud forward could potentially turn off a lot of people. It is NEVER a good idea to use cancer like that, especially when Ambrose implied that Reigns' is getting what he deserved.

Oliver
11-22-2018, 11:14 AM
Nah, I say fuck it - use it up until the point that they push it too far and someone actually steps in.

I want to see Ambrose getting reactions like Punk was in the SES, having rubbish thrown at him and old ladies shouting at him. As I said before, too many heels in WWE aren't really utterly despicable human beings. Ambrose should be that, and they should use this as far as they can.

Powder
11-22-2018, 12:20 PM
Playing off someone's poor life choices and his past drug addictions, and being a self righteous, but completely correct persona as the leader of the SES is different than commenting that getting cancer is penance for past discretions.

Punk and the SES was the over the top, I'm going to be right in your face shouting from the rooftop about how they were morally correct. So over the top that they came off as villains, but when in truth what they were saying was morally and ethically correct. It was like the Right to Senor or when Angle first debuted. Nothing any of them said was bad at all, and all they did was spout truth in an "I'm better than you way". Perfect for professional wrestling.

Cancer is a bitch. It doesn't discriminate, and is brutal. Using it as fuel for the feud it really, really, poor taste, and there is no moral high ground that you could justify it.

Team Farrell
11-22-2018, 01:42 PM
Wrestling fans are just too soft these days. They want to use wrestling to "escape" and not think about real life -- I literally know wrestling fans that say they don't want matches to look too "real" because they like the "people behind the wrestlers" and it makes them too uncomfortable.

I say, use the cancer. Push it, run with it, make Dean into an absolutely evil monster with it.

This would be one thing if it was Seth's dad or Roman's wife or someone completely divorced from the business that had cancer. That's distasteful and there's no need to bring them up.

But it's a guy in the business. He knows the score. Anyone who's in the business would much prefer that if something like that happened to them, hopefully something could come of it and some money could be made. Are you kidding? If I died tomorrow I could only hope that my friends still in the business could use it in an angle to make money. Why is Nia Jax over as a huge heel right now? Because this business has become so neutered and full of people taking to social media the minute something happens to the person that they were working with to apologize and wish them a speedy recovery, that when she sold it like an asshole, it made her look like a genuine asshole and worked. If she'd taken to Twitter to beg for forgiveness and apologize to Becky, and Becky had told her that shit happens and it's no big deal, the backlash to Nia would have been way less and they wouldn't have a heel with genuine heat and a big potential match-up down the line.

Cancer is awful. I watched it kill my ex-mother-in-law. But this isn't using her in an angle. This is using the real life sickness of a guy who's a wrestler that, hopefully, can make something good and a strong heel come out of his terrible news. This is keeping Roman's name on TV while hopefully helping to make a truly hated, not "cool", heel.

Prime Time
11-22-2018, 01:48 PM
I don't have the problem with it that some people have, but I don't see it as a people don't want reality case. Here, if you choose to go that route, that's the less real thing for me.

It's to turn Ambrose into a melodramatic villain, the kind who twirls his moustache. Which is fine if that's the way you want to go, it's just the opposite of 'real', where your villain would still have believable motivations.

meandi
11-22-2018, 06:58 PM
Should’ve gone Heath Ledger Joker. Like, Dean didn’t really have a reason other than maybe “Eh, I’m bored... let’s cause some chaos just because it’ll be fun.” Or something like that. No rhyme; no reason.

LifeLostInRewind
11-22-2018, 08:56 PM
If Reigns is okay with it, I don't see the problem. Sure, it may make people uncomfortable, but WWE has pushed the envelope with irl issues a lot. Take the Matt hardy and Edge feud from 2005 for example, which was based off their irl love triangle. I know it's not as serious as what Roman Reigns is going through, but still.

Team Farrell
11-23-2018, 11:25 AM
Should’ve gone Heath Ledger Joker. Like, Dean didn’t really have a reason other than maybe “Eh, I’m bored... let’s cause some chaos just because it’ll be fun.” Or something like that. No rhyme; no reason.
Yes, no reason other than chaos for the sake of it. That's excellent narrative storytelling.

meandi
11-23-2018, 07:30 PM
Not sure if you’re being serious or sarcastic...

Prime Time
11-24-2018, 09:59 AM
I couldn't tell either, haha.

It's something that you can obviously do but comes with some drawback, too. It's really hard to do an emotional, gut-wrenching story of betrayal with someone who doesn't really feel.

The upside, I suppose, is that a chaotic element does introduce an element of massive unpredictability.

In my opinion that'd work better if the WWE was more ordered to start with. Chaos worked well in the NWO and early Kane angles because they were a disruption to genuine order. Now it'd strike less of an obvious contrast.

Team Farrell
11-26-2018, 04:42 PM
I was being completely sarcastic. That is the worst, least interesting type of character imaginable because he has no motivation for anything that he does other than "because, chaos". Laaaaaaaaaame.

Everyone needs to watch the Chronicle episode on Dean Ambrose. Drop whatever you're doing right now. In fact, they should dedicate the first hour of Raw this week to just playing it. It's this incredible piece of film making. It starts off as this completely shoot look at his return and how frustrated he's been sitting on the shelf and how he just wants to get on the road, then the call from creative that he has to be on a plane today (which he's frustrated with), then his return.

...then it takes a wonderful turn. It pretty much seamlessly transitions into this kayfabe look at his descent into madness, his turn on Rollins and the aftermath. But they completely keep the documentary style, throwing back to past footage that they shot (and I refuse to believe that he knew what the creative was going to be while he was being interviewed), showing night after night on the European tour of he and Rollins fighting.

It's brilliantly made. It might be the best damn thing WWE has put out in years. Especially when you consider the turnaround time seeing as the end of the doc was footage from last week.

It really puts across Dean's motivation in all of this as being that he was so frustrated with coming back and not being able to advance himself, instead he was dragged into Roman and Seth's issues as a backup act. He just wants to do what he wants and he's interested in, but he just keeps getting more and more and more frustrated being the backup guy. He loves those guys, but he doesn't view it as "his fight", and then he takes a bad bump in one of the brawls and that makes him even angrier, getting hurt in someone else's fight.

They lay the foundation of Roman being his best friend in the world. And then something snaps in him that night Roman announced he was leaving.

I'm sort of frustrated that a company that produces eight or more hours of original television content per week has an extra hour long documentary as almost "required viewing" to fully "get" Dean's turn and provide the background, but it's so damn good that I almost can't fault them. I seriously can't recommend it enough.

meandi
11-26-2018, 11:10 PM
I guess we’ll agree to disagree.

PT made the statement that using the whole cancer thing “turns Dean into a melodramatic villain twirling his moustache.”

Why can’t we have a villain that’s just bored with the status quo? Someone that wants to cause chaos because... why not? Have we seen anything like that since Scott Hall showed up on Nitro? Commentators and fans alike have called Dean the “Lunatic Fringe”. Pretty sure lunatics just go off and do what they do for no real rhyme or reason. Forget about trying to justify real life lunatics... sometimes men just want to watch the world burn. Why not incapsulate that into a heel?

LK3185
11-27-2018, 12:10 AM
Dean's segment tonight was really really bad. Whoever thought that was a good idea should be fired. OH wait Vince thought it was a good idea.

Prime Time
11-27-2018, 06:25 AM
I guess we’ll agree to disagree.

PT made the statement that using the whole cancer thing “turns Dean into a melodramatic villain twirling his moustache.”

Why can’t we have a villain that’s just bored with the status quo? Someone that wants to cause chaos because... why not? Have we seen anything like that since Scott Hall showed up on Nitro? Commentators and fans alike have called Dean the “Lunatic Fringe”. Pretty sure lunatics just go off and do what they do for no real rhyme or reason. Forget about trying to justify real life lunatics... sometimes men just want to watch the world burn. Why not incapsulate that into a heel?

The difficulty is that Dean can't really have much of a story or progression of his own in that case. He could only be a chaotic element that floats through other people's stories. One of the big things about wrestling narrative is drama unfolding, and if the motive is just because, that's a whole aspect that has nothing to reveal.

And actually, now I think about it, my examples were bad. Kane and NWO might have caused chaos, but they did actually want something. It wasn't chaos for it's own sake.

Team Farrell
11-27-2018, 12:03 PM
Dean's segment tonight was really really bad. Whoever thought that was a good idea should be fired. OH wait Vince thought it was a good idea.
It wasn't that bad. The idea behind it was pretty solid, though probably not so much for that character. My biggest complaint with it is that you have Dean Ambrose of all people there, give him an actual shot. Just give him a B12 injection. But actually show that shit.

The difficulty is that Dean can't really have much of a story or progression of his own in that case. He could only be a chaotic element that floats through other people's stories. One of the big things about wrestling narrative is drama unfolding, and if the motive is just because, that's a whole aspect that has nothing to reveal.

And actually, now I think about it, my examples were bad. Kane and NWO might have caused chaos, but they did actually want something. It wasn't chaos for it's own sake.
There's just absolutely no interest to come of a guy being chaotic for chaos sake. He can never have an overarching motive. He never has personal issues. He's just doing it because it amuses him. It's the kind of thing that 14 year old me would have thought was so cool and deep and dark, but 30 year old me would skip the segments for.

LK3185
11-27-2018, 12:06 PM
I was expecting very different from that segment than what we actually got.. I'm not saying I expected Jon Moxley but these promos are kinda hokey from Dean imo..

Not really into this feud. Can't say I would be if it was chaos Dean but that's also because chaos isn't done well by WWE typically.. its a few weeks of something interesting and then it becomes tired.

Powder
11-27-2018, 12:09 PM
This feud is completely WWE scripting. Let the talent do their own thing. Given them guidelines and a plan, not a script.

Prime Time
11-27-2018, 12:12 PM
There's just absolutely no interest

The only thing I could see working is if you've got people invested in something else and then Dean's music hits and you know he's about to spoil it. But again, without an overarching motive or some reason for it, he has no story of his own. All he can do is pass through other people's stories and get them mad at him. You don't have a character then, you have a macguffin.

It's actually hard to find stories where people do just genuinely want chaos. Seems like there's always an underlying reason or motive for it, even if it takes a while to get there.

All things considered it's not something I'd want to see, both for the point I raised above (chaos works better in a more structured environment in the first place) and for the one LK has just raised above me (WWE don't work those kind of things well).

LK3185
11-27-2018, 12:17 PM
The chaos people want is really Stone cold fucking shit up. But that had a purpose, he wasn't just giving people stunners for fun. His goal was to get under the skin of Vince. Joker's goal isn't chaos, its to fuck with Batman.

They could do that in WWE but it would probably devolve into Braun being a monster and trying to find the next crazy thing he could do... The company is too forumlaic and restrained for that.

Oliver
11-27-2018, 01:36 PM
Prime, was it you who previously flagged that initial interest had slipped off on this?

I've got a working theory that the issue at heart here is that WWE have immediately made Dean Ambrose one of those 'you people' heels, rather than work on the emotional angle of it all. Watching that Chronicle thing - which is incredible - the whole thing is about Dean's emotional response to things, his response to his injury and it putting him on the sidelines, his response to coming back and being back with his brothers, only to find himself the 'weak link' guy in the storyline, the joke (if you like) of The Shield and how that made him feel like shit.

There's a great bit at the end which is where I really thought this was going to go - Dean talks about Roman being his road wife and that without him there he doesn't know what he's going to do without him. That emotional struggle, that kind of sudden upheaval in his life, and how he handled that - it's a complex story to get across, but I really thought WWE were going to run with that as the reasoning and develop it into something.

Instead, now Ambrose is saying LA smells, getting flu jabs because he doesn't want to catch germs from the fans, and essentially saying 'you people' for everything. 'You people made me break my body then doubted me'; 'you people smell bad' etc etc.

I think WWE have really fumbled this since the turn, and could have delivered something incredibly affecting and conflicting in terms of human emotions, but have nearly immediately reduced Dean to some kind of 'heel 101' play book. It's fascinating that just as they start to add some grey shades to characters like Charlotte, who were desperately in need of it, they're seemingly unwilling to lean into this not being Dean be a bad person, but instead someone who emotionally reacted to what he thought was his support system being pulled out from underneath him.

LK3185
11-27-2018, 01:51 PM
That's exactly it for me. This version of Dean as heel, is boring and cliche to me.. Give him something more than attacking the fans... its cheap heat, which alright you don't want him to get cheered but There's better ways to do that.. Bryan's promo on SD, was more about him beating his own weakness out of his body than the fans... it was still sort of a 'you people' promo but done in such a compelling manner.

This Heel Dean is just not going to work as constructed. Unless his actions can't outweigh it.

Oliver
11-27-2018, 05:15 PM
The only possibility here is to kind of...I don't know if this makes sense or not actually, but to put it out there - Dean's had a week with a scarf over his face and a week getting flu jabs. What if they spin it very quickly to pivot away from this character and turn those acts into Dean desperately wanting to avoid illness because his best friend got ill? They could continue with it as a form of PTSD, if you like, that Dean's now super into avoiding illness as a result.

I don't know if that works without a bit of detailing and colour around it to really learn into it. But the reason the turn initially excited me was because I saw it not as a 'heel' act, specifically, but as a complex human action that involved all the emotions these two had had during their reunion process bubbling up into something else.

Powder
12-11-2018, 09:32 AM
i am so glad that last night Renee finally responded to Graves with an appropriate response to his Ambrose comments.

I'm am paraphrasing here, but when graves asked about Ambrose winning the IC title Renee said something like: "Come on, enough already" then Cole said "that's not fair", and Renee responded "but if he wins the IC title, that great for my household, as it will bring in more money". Good for her.

SirSam
12-17-2018, 04:53 PM
The Dean and Seth match last night seems to have been quite divicive and if you believe Meltzer Vince was squarely in the dislike camp. What did you guys think?

LK3185
12-17-2018, 04:59 PM
Awful. Wrong type of match at the wrong time. Vince can be pissed all he want, he won't do anything. The way WWE is managed it can't all be on the workers, the agents that helped put it together need to get their shit together.

Powder
12-17-2018, 05:09 PM
Also, how do you follow Styles/Bryan where they put on a clinic in story telling.

BUT the match was terrible. It was slow and boring and the crowd was chanting boring. Then the TLC woman's match came and it was awesome.

LK3185
12-17-2018, 05:20 PM
Also, how do you follow Styles/Bryan where they put on a clinic in story telling.

BUT the match was terrible. It was slow and boring and the crowd was chanting boring. Then the TLC woman's match came and it was awesome.

You do something that's not like AJ and Bryan. Seth and Dean went out there, supposed grudge match and had roughly a regular match. The brawling for 5 seconds got a pop. So how do you do that match layout and think 'yeah this is good'

Team Farrell
12-17-2018, 06:36 PM
I think the match, from a technical standpoint, was good. But yes, it was the wrong type of match for that angle. It had the wrong feel.

Seth Rollins truly is the "workhorse" of WWE. He's the guy that can be trusted to go out and eat up 25 minutes of Raw with truly incredible matches every single week if you need him to. But, that has two drawbacks.

1) Him going out and putting on a really good, technically crisp, 25 minute match feels "normal" now. You almost need the guy to go an hour like he did earlier in the year for it to feel like there's any specialness to it at all.
2) WWE expects him to go 25 minutes now and assumes that anything less will be seen as being "less than", disappointing to the crowd, and tarnish that "workhorse" image.

That was two of the three issues peaking last night into what people called a "boring" match. The third being that we were almost four hours into the show, five to six for the live crowd, and they wanted to get to the main event, see Becky, and get this over with.

For the record, I enjoyed the match. However, I nodded off 3/4 of the way through Finn/McIntyre and woke up about halfway through the Chairs match, so I was probably way more refreshed than the live audience and I like athletic wrestling. Combine that with the fact that after Final Battle on Friday night, everything on that card except for Bryan/AJ and this match felt like it was being worked in slow motion, and I was into it.

However, this could have been universally loved if they hadn't tried to fall back on trusty Seth (and Dean, don't anyone believe that I'm lessening his contributions) to eat up time and go 25 minutes. You can't have a crazy brawl for 25 minutes without some big down time for selling, some blood or some of the more violent things that WWE won't allow. It gets old really fast, and it's especially hard to do at the pace that Dean and Seth like to keep. For that reason, I completely understand why they were working holds and wrestling like a standard match. That stuff truly helps to eat up a lot of time.

But you can have a really good, intense, all-out brawl in 10-12. Imagine taking every ounce of energy that they put into that match, and putting it into half of the time spent brawling all over the arena. Don't even have them get to the ring and officially ring the bell until the eight minute mark. You don't need to use everything that isn't bolted down as a weapon, just two guys punching, kicking and beating one another through the crowd, into the stands, up and down the ramp. Do the exact same finish, even have a battered Dean beg off and try to trick his former friend in the same way, but condense it. It would have been very different from everything else on the card and would have kept the energy up and the crowd engaged for 11 minutes. Most importantly, it wouldn't have lasted too long.

If it was an issue of time (which I could understand with Strowman and Corbin not being able to do an actual match) you can spend three or four minutes on Seth in the ring afterward selling the loss and the announcers questioning what his next move is. You can eat up a little time here and there throughout the show maybe with interviews with Asuka, Charlotte, Becky and Seth.

I think timing was a big problem on this show. There was a lot of time eaten up pushing Raw tonight unnecessarily. The people watching this show, they are not the reason Raw's ratings are down. They know Vince is going to be there, they're tuning in tonight. Time should have been shaved from Seth and Dean, some of those plugs for Raw should have been taken out, and Buddy Murphy and Cedric should have gotten their 10 minutes on the main show, maybe as a pick-me-up between Strowman and the Tables match (that really slow tables match where neither girl was physically strong enough to lift a table was where I started feeling tired).

EDIT: One thing I miss about Attitude Era PPVs (and maybe it was just pre-Network) was you didn't get ads for Raw. They assumed that if you bought the show, you were tuning in to the free stuff. So that time where they advertise Raw last night would have been spent on Kevin Kelly interviewing The Rock about his big main event (any not "backstage reporter" walking up to him randomly and interrupting him), maybe a retort from Triple H and a comedy skit or two to keep things moving. So many things last night felt like they ground the show to a halt rather than keeping it moving.

LK3185
12-17-2018, 07:46 PM
Coach, one thing i have to wonder is, WWE plans these matches out to a precise time, or sometimes people go over whatever... Because of that, Seth or Dean can't just call an audible right? Not even saying that was how it was done back in the old days... The most on the fly thing i've seen in recent years was that Punk/Rey match where i think there was blood and the crowd got restless and Punk jumped on Rey to get them back..

If i'm Dean in a chinlock and I hear a crowd losing interest. I change it up if i can.

SirSam
12-17-2018, 11:13 PM
It is one thing to go long and leave people waiting it is another to go short and have people unprepared especially when you are mentally preparing for an insane match like a tlc.

I think you’ve probably nailed things down ther Coach in terms of how people are souring on it. I can feel people turning on Seth as a potential champ already which really saddens me. It really shows how the 3 hour Raw has left people over exposed. In the past he might have 10 min maybe 15 weekly and then the loner ones would be special. Now it is just an attitude of ‘boring until he gets to the Falcon Arrow’ and ‘he always sells the knee’. Of course I completely disagree with these Assesments and even just a cursory glance at his matches this year proves that wrong but these perceptions right or wrong are difficult beasts to shed.

This is a thread about Dean though and I think his style is not what people want it to be. People assume he is a wild brawler and to a degree he is portrayed like that by the WWE however he is much more of an old school technician. Bret Hart like even. It is a style that tells great stories, is quite cerebral and rewards rewatches but doesn’t have the pop of a slam bam Tommaso Ciampa or Johnny Gargano match.

Team Farrell
12-18-2018, 11:58 AM
Coach, one thing i have to wonder is, WWE plans these matches out to a precise time, or sometimes people go over whatever... Because of that, Seth or Dean can't just call an audible right? Not even saying that was how it was done back in the old days... The most on the fly thing i've seen in recent years was that Punk/Rey match where i think there was blood and the crowd got restless and Punk jumped on Rey to get them back..

If i'm Dean in a chinlock and I hear a crowd losing interest. I change it up if i can.

WWE is extremely planned out. Outside of there, if the semi main is set to go 20 but the crowd's not into it so they go 15, the main gets some extra time to do something with. But WWE is so rigid that Seth and Dean cutting it short probably would have just cut the whole show short just because they likely have a spot-for-spot plan for the TLC match and not a lot of time to add 5-10 minutes to it.

They did an okay job of compensating for the boring chants. Once they started, Seth moved almost immediately into some of his signature spots.

There's also the fact that sometimes they're just not into what you're doing because they don't want to see it. They had a pretty decent, standard 25 minute match following a really good 25 minute match and on a card where they'd already seen a hardcore stuff and had a TLC match left. It's a really tough spot for Seth and Dean to be in, and if they had swapped that match for Braun's segment in the order of the card, things might have been very different (I'm assuming that Braun is more over than those two and that the crowd would be more forgiving of a 16 minute segment than a 25 minute match).

But the truth is, sometimes you've just got the raw deal. I was on a card a few months ago that literally had a no DQ match, a Hardcore match, a match with a ref bump that turned into a hardcore match because of it and a streetfight main event. I'm working a standard tag, no gimmicks, after the hardcore match but before the main. We were given like 15 minutes to work with, but as soon as we started and took a hold "boring" chants started. We hit a few fast paced spots to pick them up, but then as soon as someone took another hold the chants started again. Rather than fighting it, knowing full well that no matter what we did they just wanted to see blood, we took it home in like eight minutes and let the main have the rest of our time.

We had that option, unfortunately I don't think that's the case in WWE which I totally understand because they are trying to nail a four hour window (that's a problem in and of itself, TLC would have been a better card at three hours). It isn't easy to lay out a full card, and sometimes you put something together that, on paper, you think is going to be a home run but when it actually goes on it doesn't work and you realize where you went wrong.

LK3185
12-18-2018, 12:25 PM
Yeah, that's what i figured. I just mainly question why they thought that work in that spot? I don't believe they sent them out there to die on the vine so to speak. its not a cool down match when you're supposed to be a grudge match, 25 mins whatever.

Unless they planned it out with a different spot in the card in mind and then told that they had the before the main spot.

Oliver
12-19-2018, 07:39 AM
I actually really liked the match in isolation and without everything around it.

It was certainly the wrong type of match for these two to have, but then their feud has devolved into something very generic since Ambrose turned and, to be honest, I think it's lost the emotional heft it could/should have had. In a way, the match was a product of how badly these feud has slipped away and the very Raw-ness of it all - only on Raw (and, even more specifically, Raw right now) could they take a feud that should be hot as all hell, a mess of complex human emotions and real fire, and turn it into a 'I think the fans are stupid morons with ugly faces and they have big butts and their butts smell and they like to kiss their own butts'/'No, these people are great, you are wrong' heel/face dynamic.

It's a damning indictment of just how shit Raw has been recently that this is what's resulted from what was, on night one, the hottest and most interesting angle they'd delivered in years. So I don't think the blame actually lies with either Seth or Dean - I think the blame lies with creative for messing up the story. The match itself reflected how that story has gone, because it's lost the heat.

If this had real heat going in, I think we get a different match. Personally I think you flip this in card positioning with Strowman/Corbin which was largely a comedy/light moment in the whole show, and run that as your cool down between Styles/Dragon and Becky/Charlotte/Asuka. And if you do that and keep the heat on it for the past couple of months, you have it on the card before any of the plunder matches that are on the show and can run it as an all out brawl without it being too similar to anything else that's come before it.

Prime Time
01-11-2019, 08:04 AM
Theory out there is that Balor is next for Ambrose, which will probably keep him busy for six weeks or so. Maybe even all the way to Wrestlemania?

SirSam
01-12-2019, 08:24 AM
I think that would be a great feud for both of them. Balor is in desperate need of a rivalry he can truly sink he teeth into and really define his character with. No man better to do that against than Ambrose.

SirSam
01-15-2019, 01:40 AM
Fucking fuckidy fuck

Bobby Lashley has all the personality of a goldfish and generates excitement levels the equivalent of a mid week retirement home bingo competition.

HOW THE BLUE HELL does he get the IC over one of the most compelling character wrestlers of this generation?

LifeLostInRewind
01-15-2019, 02:38 AM
Not a fan of the quick transition from Ambrose to Lashey for the IC title and honestly, if they wanted to get the belt off Rollins and on Lashley, they could have had Ambrose cost Rollins the title in a one on one match between them.

Oliver
01-16-2019, 12:11 PM
Yeah, it's all a bit unfathomable to me and I'm kind of disappointed - not only do I think Lashley is a bad choice, but for it to be lost in a triple threat environment, and taken away from a hot feud, is very odd.

Part of me expects them to put this rivalry to bed after the Rumble. I know it's been long rumoured as Rollins vs Lesnar at Mania with the former taking the title - perhaps they have Rollins eliminate Ambrose last in the Rumble (or go down the Bret/Luger route with a 'draw') then have Rollins defend his shot against Ambrose at Elimination Chamber.

Are they doing another Roadblock this year?

LK3185
01-16-2019, 12:25 PM
I don't believe roadblock is on the schedule.

I'm a fan of Lashley so i don't mind the switch, especially if it leads to an Apollo Crews feud. I honestly think Vince has cooled on Dean a bit. I mean, he's a heel, Seth is likely to be Universal Champion after mania and they've already done the feud and its been frankly disappointing. So what do you do with Dean if he's not feuding with Seth? I imagine he probably goes on to work with Balor and loses that mini feud as well. I can't see any upward movement coming for Dean especially since they will want to push guys like EC3 and Drew. Maybe a switch back to SD would help.

LifeLostInRewind
01-16-2019, 12:44 PM
Dean will probably go to smackdown after Mania. He can feud with guys like Rusev, Mysterio, etc.

Though, honestly Smackdown is lacking in the face department.

Powder
01-17-2019, 12:07 PM
Smackdown is lacking in all departments for single competition. But surprisingly their tag division is stacked if they used them properly.

Bar
New Day
Usos
Club
Bludgeon Bros
Sanity
And Now Miz/Shane

LK3185
01-18-2019, 12:10 AM
^ and they don't. The first three teams you listed have gone back and forth all year with barely any storyline to support it. Tag team wrestling in WWE is pretty lazy right now.

Smackdown for the last 6 months to a year have focused on the vet stars and while that can produce good matches and its an easier watch than Raw, they still need to establish younger talent... I'm hopeful that Ali and Andrade are getting a real push and its not a ruse

LifeLostInRewind
01-18-2019, 04:25 AM
Well at least Andrade is picking wins now =S

Oliver
01-18-2019, 06:42 AM
I think EC3 is going to be the next big face - and big push - on Smackdown. And I'm there for it. Failing that, the time is right to push Big E to the main event.


I don't believe roadblock is on the schedule.

I'm a fan of Lashley so i don't mind the switch, especially if it leads to an Apollo Crews feud. I honestly think Vince has cooled on Dean a bit. I mean, he's a heel, Seth is likely to be Universal Champion after mania and they've already done the feud and its been frankly disappointing. So what do you do with Dean if he's not feuding with Seth? I imagine he probably goes on to work with Balor and loses that mini feud as well. I can't see any upward movement coming for Dean especially since they will want to push guys like EC3 and Drew. Maybe a switch back to SD would help.

I wonder how much of this is down to the one disappointing match Ambrose and Rollins had together at TLC? We know Vince was reportedly 'furious' about the way it went down, and there always has to be a scapegoat for these things it seems.

Powder
01-18-2019, 08:57 AM
EC3 is a face? I know next to nothing about him, but his look screams cocky arrogant heel.

Oliver
01-18-2019, 12:25 PM
EC3 is a face? I know next to nothing about him, but his look screams cocky arrogant heel.

He could probably go either way, but has definitely been a face in NXT.

You're right, though.

LK3185
01-18-2019, 04:09 PM
I wonder how much of this is down to the one disappointing match Ambrose and Rollins had together at TLC? We know Vince was reportedly 'furious' about the way it went down, and there always has to be a scapegoat for these things it seems.

Maybe but Dean's promo work hasn't been lighting the world on fire either... Like Bryan is getting people talking more cause it feels real. I think they've mishandled Dean ever since he came back, plus they've always thought more of Seth than they did Dean. Time away from Seth would actually be a good thing for Dean.

Oliver
01-21-2019, 10:41 AM
I liked that promo Dean did on the car bonnet, where he burnt the Shield vest.

His material has been crap, though - people smell, people are dirty, all the tired tropes of WWE heel promos. The moment they give him any real emotion to work with, I think he's away - his best promos are where he's really feeling it.

Prime Time
01-21-2019, 11:09 AM
^ That might be one of those examples of you can write a story and you can explain it away, but if you give a guy lines he can't perform, in this medium it still isn't going to work....

Powder
01-23-2019, 11:46 AM
So it appears that the Ambrose/Rollins feud is done, and Ambrose is not going back after Lashley for the IC Title, so what are the plans for Ambrose? What is his future? His WM opponent?

I just posted in the KO thread, that I am hoping that Owens returns during the Rumble and attacks Lashley setting up/reviving their feud, now including the IC title. Rollins appears to be primed to wither win the Rumble or at least face Lesnar at Mania without the Rumble win. So where does that leave Ambrose? The only face left that is on par with Ambrose will be Balor, and to a much lesser extend Elias, but I can't see Elias vs Ambrose as a WM match.

LifeLostInRewind
01-23-2019, 05:35 PM
So it appears that the Ambrose/Rollins feud is done, and Ambrose is not going back after Lashley for the IC Title, so what are the plans for Ambrose? What is his future? His WM opponent?

To be fair, there is no reason why Ambrose would since rematch clauses are no longer a thing. To be honest, I like that there are no rematch clauses anymore since sometimes WWE conveniently forgot about them. Remember after Wyatt lost the title to Orton? Where was his?

Ambrose vs Balor makes sense for Mania, if Balor doesn't win the title. It's possible that he could, though.

Samuel 'Plan
01-23-2019, 06:35 PM
There may yet be another revisit of the Rollins / Ambrose thing. Ambrose consciously talked about Rollins in his promo on Monday of course, and if Rollins turns up as the winner on Sunday there's plenty of space there for WWE to go back to that old reliable well of 'put your title shot on the line' at either of the two February PPVs they need to occupy the Rumble winner for until 'Mania time. Alternatively, if Rollins doesn't win, then I imagine they might still lean on the history between the two for one of the Chambers maybe?

Not saying these are definites, just that they're still possible. Gonna be interesting to see where Ambrose is paired for 'Mania but Bálor is a good shout. If they had any sense, they'd get that IC off Lashley, onto Finn and let him and Ambrose vie for it. Ambrose has proven previous with that title and he's always done a great job with it. Balor is someone just itching to have the kind of opportunity Seth had this year, and is liable to make a similar success of it if it gets given. Those two could put some 'Mania mid card magic together for sure.

LK3185
01-29-2019, 04:09 AM
Reportedly, 3 sources apparently that Dean is leaving WWE after his contract is up post Mania.

205 Clive
01-29-2019, 05:14 AM
Another day, and another WWE wrestler apparently wanting to leave. I'll believe it when I see it.

Powder
01-29-2019, 08:28 AM
I just logged on to post this about Ambrose, but apparently it is true. I bet he is frustrated with his lack of push, just like everyone else.

LK3185
01-29-2019, 09:53 AM
Its said he's sick of the hokey shit and hit a breaking a point a few weeks ago. Thing is, these things are happening. No one really is denying that the Revial asked for their release. Maria said she didn't but it was Mike Kanalis who did and now this.

You're not going to run a story like this if there isn't some truth to it. Coupled with the fact he unceremoniously lost the IC title, got dumped from the rumble and then got punked by Nia last night after losing clean to Seth. There was also no 'you people' promo from Dean last night.

Powder
01-29-2019, 10:46 AM
I would take a very educated guess that Vince and HHH will meet with Ambrose well before his contract is up and try to work something out. I do not think that Vince wants Ambrose (and then subsequently Renee) to show up in AEW and being a top guy for them. because if Ambrose jumps ship, then who is to say who is next?

I am still hoping that AEW is going to take off. That means that there will finally be a true rival to the WWE and the talent is starting to see and feel that. This will force the WWE's hand. Either stop with the nonsense and the stupid story lines and treat everyone fairly, or they will want to leave to go to AEW. This could be a very good thing for the business of wrestling. Competition makes change.

The WWE reportedly is going to actually push the Revival b/c they are tired of losing to Lucha House party, and they are right. They are a great Tag Team who should be champions already.

Also I think that Ambrose's promo last night saying that when they rode together, they hated HHH, and that HHH never believed in him etc. I do not think that was scripted, it may have been, but if Ambrose is leaving, what will they do? Fire him?

LK3185
01-29-2019, 11:05 AM
I am still hoping that AEW is going to take off. That means that there will finally be a true rival to the WWE and the talent is starting to see and feel that. This will force the WWE's hand. Either stop with the nonsense and the stupid story lines and treat everyone fairly, or they will want to leave to go to AEW. This could be a very good thing for the business of wrestling. Competition makes change.



Interesting you say Competition makes change when the only time WWE was pushed was when WCW was kicking their ass and they almost went out of business. But people forget, that was an entirely different time, where WWF was still a private company, in a time of frankly a society of chaos where the rules were lax and you could get away with more things on TV. Since that time, WWE has found a way to get out of the seedy niche and more into a mainstream product that while isn't as popular, is able to have enough leverage in the marketplace to get billion dollar deals from companies starved for live content.

All this is to say, AEW is competition, you're right.. but everything is and another company with big dollars behind them may poach talent that are distasfied with their situation BUT the machine will roll on. Someone will take Dean's place and WWE's bottom line won't be effected AND more importantly, they won't do anything differently because they don't think anything is wrong and because there's only so much they can actually do.

AEW helps the wrestlers have more options and creative freedom. It doesn't and won't make WWE's core product any better.

Powder
01-29-2019, 11:19 AM
I do not think you can say that it will not effect the WWE. If the better talent chooses not to stay, sign, or re-sign, then it will effect the WWE. That is exactly what happened in the 90s. Talent left for more money and the promise of a more prominent role on scree.

Yes the WWE is a giant, but when you stop having the top guys on TV because they are tired of being stifled, and/or completely underused, and they leave, and the young guys signed elsewhere, so you do not have the tealent to replace them, that is a problem. Look at the talent in NXT. Name one that have come to the main roster and has been a top guy since the Shield? Owens and Balor you could argue, but barring injuries, they are not, and have not been treated as top guys, even with a 6 month title reign for KO.

Everyone else has been completely misused on the main roster. Where is Sanity, AOP, the Ascension, Bo Dallas, the Revival, Sami Zayn, Neville, Emma, Bayley, even Sasha Banks to an extent, and Asuka until the past month? All top guys from NXT that we’re never given a full chance to shine on the main roster. Held back for others.

Competition, real competition, from an organization that is being started to be more wrestler friendly, and to try to give the fans a better product and a true alternative to the WWE, will make younger guys really have the ball in their court. Imagine the interviews. Wrestler X will ask, how am I going to be used? And if the WWE doenst answer in a good way, or even if they do, Wrestler X could ask for certain things in his contract, guarantees p, otherwise, he will go elsewhere.

A true rival promotion, can cause changes to the bottom line. Maybe not immediate, but over the course of a year and beyond when talent chooses to go away.

Oliver
01-29-2019, 11:34 AM
Honestly, you could see the frustration in Ambrose during that WWE 24 thing on him during his injury and recovery. The fact that they completely fumbled what should have been an incredibly hot and emotional angle with Rollins by turning it into the most by the numbers stupid shit imaginable shows that his concerns and issues are right there.

Within 6 months, WWE are going to lose 2/3rds of The Shield - Reigns potentially to return but who knows, and Ambrose to pastures new. Two of their three great hopes for the future gone.

LK3185
01-29-2019, 12:04 PM
snip

Losing talent effects WWE of course but consider how much talent they actually have and consider how much of that is wasted and has the company taken a downturn? No. Will talent get more money from WWE because of AEW? Yes, apparently Dean was offered over a Million dollars but WWE can't bring us back to the blood and sex of the attitude era, it wouldn't work for one thing... and WWE is too mircomanaged (hence why they've controlled fiances) that you're not gonna see creative suddenly be good and logically make sense.

All WWE will do is give people raises and pushes to stay and believe in their machine of churning out talent.

Also, who's to say Dean even wants to work in AEW? He always came off as a WWE guy only and if money doesn't motivate him... I could easily see him disappearing.

Powder
01-29-2019, 12:14 PM
I am not asking for a rehash of the Attitude Era. You can tell compelling stories, and allow for the talent to show more of their own personalities without being R rated, or even TV-14. The WWE needs to fix it's "let's push this guy and this girl above everyone else because that's what we want" and truly listen to the fans and then work from there. The only time I can remember in the past 10 years, where the fans forced the WWE was WM30 with Daniel Bryan and now with Becky Lynch. Other than that, it has been the Roman Reigns and Charlotte show.

BUT the WWE keeps on going with all of the wasted talent because of the fact that there has not been a rival company to join. The wrestlers like Zach Ryder, for an example, are "content' to keep earning paychecks with literally nothing to do, but if youy give him an option now, he can leave and become someone, somewhere else.

The current talent under contract will most likely not be affected until rating slip and AEW starts pulling the WWE's audience, ratings, talent and they create a buzz around them. But new talent, yet unsigned will have the option of not going there. And when initial contracts are up, you will see more people jump ship. That is when the true effect will be felt. Again, as I said, not immediately, but give it some time.

LK3185
01-29-2019, 01:00 PM
The crux of the debate is thinking WWE will be forced to change their ways. We know Vince is quite stubborn so its gonna take alot for him to change. I don't know how things will go with AEW but short term the wrestlers have to have options open and willing to take risk on themselves. If you stay, get a raise not just cause of AEW but because of the rights fees. There's gonna be spots open for people loyal to Vince. Dean isn't the only one going to leave. Bank on that.

Cult Icon
01-29-2019, 01:58 PM
If this is true, I'm thrilled about this for entirely different reasons than Powder, provided Ambrose still wants to wrestle (if he doesn't, this would be the biggest shame since Punk quit). I don't watch WWE, I have no desire to watch WWE and Dean Ambrose is one of those people I unfortunately had to stop watching when I made that choice. To get to see him again, potentially free of the shackles, under the old Jon Moxley name would be a delight, especially when he has old programs with long forgotten tag partner Sami Callihan or cool new stuff with a guy like Joey Janela ahead of him. He'd also be a great get for AEW, especially since it would give him a fresh start and, to some degree, wash off some of the stink that has hurt his aura the past few years.

It's remarkable it's even gotten to this point because back in 2014 I was convinced Dean Ambrose was "the guy." Everyone wanted to talk about Roman or Seth because they had a better look or did cooler dives but the guy who held it all together was Ambrose. Especially after Punk left, you could tell he was the only one of those three, hell the only one WWE had (at least at the time) who could do what Punk did, in that he did all the little things well and, when given the opportunity, could cut a promo that could change the landscape at the drop of the hat. And yet the only time they ever used him properly (at least from what I saw, which didn't include his title run) was that initial feud with Rollins, and in the end he never won any of those matches, was forced to do goofier shit the more time went on in that angle (which he amazingly did get over), had to share the spotlight with a Cena/Orton feud that no one remembers at this point and, most embarrassingly, got beaten by holograms and exploding TV's in that dumbass Bray Wyatt feud. All because he was hot and WWE couldn't have him hotter than Roman Reigns at the time. WWE had a chance to make Dean that year, make Roman the next year (and make Seth in between all that) and they would've legitimately had three major stars on their hands. Instead Dean now wants to leave, Roman hopefully return more over than ever, but only because of what he went through (and there's no guarantee that WWE, the same company that bombed Daniel Bryan's comeback till he turned heel, will stick the landing there) and Seth is a star, but not a mega star. It's remarkable.

LK3185
01-29-2019, 05:22 PM
WWE put out a statement that Dean is in fact leaving when his contract expires in April.

comfortablynumb
01-29-2019, 06:03 PM
Does this turn into a CM Punk situation now where they play it up on TV or do you think Ambrose is off TV starting right now?

LifeLostInRewind
01-29-2019, 06:20 PM
And if Dean does quit, Renee will probably go with him.

Cult Icon
01-29-2019, 06:23 PM
If he keeps appearing I would say this points to the whole thing being a work because I can't see why they would build up any sort of program for a guy that's completely out the door. So if we are to believe this is real (and every credible journalist seems to think so) then I expect we won't see Dean Ambrose on TV again. I do think however you will see this guy who looks a lot like Ambrose named Jon Moxley on this show called Double or Nothing in Las Vegas on May 25th. Just a hunch though.

Powder
01-30-2019, 10:47 AM
If a person chooses not to re-sign with the WWE and let's their contract run out, like Ambrose is supposedly doing, is there a No Compete Clause attached? Or is that only for released wrestlers?

Because if there is the 3 month No Compete Clause, then Ambrose/Moxley/Good or whatever he wants to call himself, couldn't show up on May 25th.


Does this turn into a CM Punk situation now where they play it up on TV or do you think Ambrose is off TV starting right now?

It can't be a Punk situation, b/c Punk wanted to re-sign, apparently Ambrose doesn't.

comfortablynumb
01-30-2019, 11:01 AM
Did he want to re-sign? He seemed very on the fence at the time and leaning toward leaving. I'm just asking do they give Ambrose a microphone and let him say what he wants. I highly doubt it, but it could also be their last resort of keeping him (and hoping he catches fire). In reality I doubt we see him again on WWE TV though (for now).

Cult Icon
01-30-2019, 11:08 AM
The 90 day clause is of no concern here. It only applies to when a wrestler is outright released; as Ambrose is letting his contract expire it means he'll be free and clear when it's up, meaning he would be able to do Double or Nothing. Even if that wasn't the case he could work immediately anyway. I know no one likes Del Rio anymore but back when he was released the first time he ignored the no compete clause and immediately went to work for AAA, then immediately challenged the clause in court and won. You can also refuse the clause by refusing to take the money during the 90 day period; when Sami Callihan was released a few years ago he was given the option to reject the clause and did, which led to him immediately getting back to work. Basically it's not going to come into play. Ambrose is either going to reject it or it won't matter.

LK3185
01-30-2019, 02:24 PM
I could see Dean still on TV given their statement, I don't think they want to make it worse and they also know if fans know he's under contract but disappears for 3 months, their might be some backlash. Not punk level but I would expect Dean fans to be very supportive of him.

LifeLostInRewind
01-30-2019, 03:14 PM
Hell of a time to drop the ball on Ambrose given AEW starting up. Not that Ambrose is definitely going to jump ship after all is said.

Ambrose is unhappy with how he is being used, yes. So creative should work on building him up for a major push. If I was them, he'd be the one I'd have to dethrone Daniel Bryan.

LK3185
01-30-2019, 04:46 PM
We don't know exactly what he's unhappy about. All the reports said he was sick of the hokey shit.. and for him to not re-sign, that must mean that he wasn't pleased with any creative changes... They just threw money at him to fix the problem.

You have AEW who are likely to give talent way more creative freedom and more money per date than WWE could possibly offer if rumors are to be believed.

comfortablynumb
01-30-2019, 05:34 PM
Yeah I think it says a lot he just closed negotiations and is content going.

LK3185
01-30-2019, 05:55 PM
Exactly. This story doesn't come out if they were still at the negotiating table.

Team Farrell
01-31-2019, 01:01 PM
And if Dean does quit, Renee will probably go with him.
Nah, she's not going anywhere. Unless ESPN makes her an offer, WWE is legitimately her dream job. She's a wrestling fan who got her start hosting a WWE after show. As long as there are no bridges burned or hard feelings, she'll stick around.

If he keeps appearing I would say this points to the whole thing being a work because I can't see why they would build up any sort of program for a guy that's completely out the door. So if we are to believe this is real (and every credible journalist seems to think so) then I expect we won't see Dean Ambrose on TV again. I do think however you will see this guy who looks a lot like Ambrose named Jon Moxley on this show called Double or Nothing in Las Vegas on May 25th. Just a hunch though.
I think they'll give him a program. I wouldn't be surprised to see him on the WrestleMania pre-show. He has name value and some cache that could be useful in putting over one of the brand new NXT call-ups. Rumors were Ambrose vs EC3, and I think they'll still go through with it because of Ambrose's value as a name in establishing someone new right away.

There don't appear to be outwardly hard feelings, and they might hope that he'll change his mind in the end. I'm sure that contract is still on the table and WWE isn't going to tell him to go fuck himself should he decide to stay, so they might as well keep him on TV. He puts someone new over (or Nia Jax, ugh!) if he's leaving, or he changes his mind at the eleventh hour.

Hell of a time to drop the ball on Ambrose given AEW starting up. Not that Ambrose is definitely going to jump ship after all is said.

Ambrose is unhappy with how he is being used, yes. So creative should work on building him up for a major push. If I was them, he'd be the one I'd have to dethrone Daniel Bryan.
I'm not sure how much WWE dropped the ball with him. He seems like he's not meant for the WWE machine and he gritted his teeth and kept up with it because he enjoyed working and travelling alongside two guys who legitimately became his close friends, and his wife. Plus, I'm sure that the money was great. But he's the type of guy that wouldn't like the WWE atmosphere.

I also believe that he'll be back. He isn't going to burn bridges on the way out, and I don't think he's the type to go off burying the company and "shooting" on them. For all his headaches, it seems like they treated him well and he recognizes and appreciates that. He might just need to do what guys like Jericho and Christian have done over the years: leave for a few years, get their palate cleansed, "learn a new hold" and come back.

It sort of makes me wonder. That incredible doc that they put out last year, how much of that do you think was Dean legitimately venting his frustrations and just being generally unhappy with how he was being used on his return? The editors and creative probably took a look at that, saw that he'd turned heel anyway and just edited it to tell the story of his heel turn.

Cult Icon
01-31-2019, 01:27 PM
To me the only reason you keep Dean on TV is if this whole thing is indeed a work like some are suggesting. The problem is it isn't a work; WWE isn't going to send out a statement like they did to places like ESPN, Deadspin and such if it weren't true (it's one thing to work Wade Keller, it's another to work outlets you hope will cover you seriously one day). So putting him on TV to either put over EC3 (what a waste that would be), Nia (ditto) or Triple H (ditto again) only for him to leave would just do more harm than good because a) it'll just get fans hopes up only to crush them and b) it'll just give free advertising to both Ambrose and whatever place he's going to. There's also the risk of fans flocking to him as a martyr if WWE books him so badly, which also boosts his pedigree for when he leaves. The best thing to do is to take him off TV, let the contract run down and then have a clean break. There will still be a ton of excitement for Jon Moxley in AEW or wherever he winds up but we've seen with Pac that, while still big, the momentum he had on his return wasn't the same as it would've been if WWE had released Pac as soon as he wanted out. Keep him off till the deal is done and let him go do whatever.

I also don't think Dean is ever coming back. A few years ago I would've said it was a shoe in, but I thought that about Cody Rhodes at one point too and it's clear now he's only returning if AEW completely belly flops. For some guys money isn't the be all, end all; creative freedom is, and I think we're seeing that with guys like Cody, Kenny Omega and now Ambrose (note that CM Punk fit this mold as well). They want to be somewhere where they can have a degree of control over what they are doing and while that can happen in WWE, it's very rare and it requires a whole lot of luck to get to that point. As long as Vince is around that will not change so no; I don't think we see Dean in WWE again other than a Hall of Fame appearance or if AEW just folds in the next few years. He'll sign with AEW or some other promotion (Sami Callihan is his long time friend so Impact is an option, even if it's a long shot) and stick with that until it's time to retire or it folds.

Josh
01-31-2019, 09:05 PM
I'm curious if maybe Dean is looking outside of wrestling too. He's a charismatic guy and I could see him making some headway in Hollywood. Not Rock level. Not Cena level. But, you never know - all it takes is one or two roles and you've got steady work (see Batista). Hell, Rob Van Dam has been in a couple straight-to-DVD movies and he was somewhat notorious for lacking any range in his promos.

To me, the argument for WWE dropping the ball on him is that, when he was red hot in the summer of 2014, they didn't capitalize on it and push him further to the top. But instead of thrusting him to the top tier of the card - inserting him into stories with Cena and Lesnar - they let him cool and naively thought they could re-heat him whenever they wanted. But not every guy can be "re-heated" back to their previous overness and Ambrose was never as over as he was back then. If you've got a hot hand, you've got to play it. They didn't.

Powder
02-25-2019, 12:07 PM
Ambrose might have gotten injured at a house show this weekend.....

Apparently he took a Claymore kick and the ref threw up the X...no more details as of yet.

Oliver
02-26-2019, 09:37 AM
Seems unaffected based on Raw last night, maybe just a stinger or something.

meandi
02-26-2019, 12:50 PM
So... is Ambrose a face again?

Powder
02-26-2019, 01:11 PM
Probably, and iit looks like a Shield reunion before his departure is in the works.

meandi
02-26-2019, 01:55 PM
If they do another reunion, can it be Reigns that turns this time and he can be like “Haha, you guys really suck. And the whole leukemia thing was a lie, too...”

Powder
02-26-2019, 01:58 PM
They would have to do what was suggested in another thread of:

Roman turns on them b/c they were not there for him during his battle with leukemia.

Oliver
02-27-2019, 08:21 AM
If they do another reunion, can it be Reigns that turns this time and he can be like “Haha, you guys really suck. And the whole leukemia thing was a lie, too...”

Oh man, I'd be so fucking in on this if it happened.

Just a massive middle finger to everyone.

I hope Roman claims it to be his yard again, too.

Powder
02-28-2019, 03:33 PM
The main page is reporting that Ambrose has some bookings in May now, which the article also implies that either Ambrose signed a new deal, or will.

I do not know which thread I said it in, but I said that if/when Roman comes back, Ambrose would probably re-sign. I would love to see an Ambrose/Reigns program as that is the only one we haven't seen yet.

meandi
02-28-2019, 04:24 PM
To add onto what Powder said, the same article mentioned Roman doing an autograph session and being asked about Ambrose, and Toman replied “We’ll work on that.” Or something along those lines. Backstage reports are also Ambrose is the happiest he’s been in a while since Roman came back, and that part of his frustration was having to use the leukemia angle with Rollins.

Powder
02-28-2019, 05:05 PM
The article was amended to remove Ambrose from those dates. Hmmmm...

Maybe the contract talks are not finished.

Team Farrell
02-28-2019, 06:46 PM
Well no, of course they're not. They'll keep talking to him until the last moment. They'll probably keep talking to him until he's signed somewhere else. But if he feels he's being misused, and doesn't like his spot, having a friend back isn't going to drastically change that. It might make leaving harder, but if he needs some time out of there he'll have to do what's best for him. Cell phones and email exist.

LK3185
02-28-2019, 06:59 PM
Exactly. To be honest, I think Dean wants time away from all wrestling. He's had that with injury but I don't think he's happy with what he's been doing for a long time, just my speculation of course. Maybe they can do something that would make him want to reup again but he's probably been fed false promises before. Being happy to see Roman again doesn't mean he's happy at his job.

Cult Icon
02-28-2019, 07:57 PM
Exactly. To be honest, I think Dean wants time away from all wrestling.

Except every single person that has reported on this story, including the guy who broke it (Wade Keller) said that Dean isn't tired of wrestling, he's tired of WWE. I haven't listened to it but the podcast he apparently did with Zack Ryder and Curt Hawkins is also said to have indicated his passion for wrestling is still there. The guy just wants out and he should leave even with Roman back. People have to remember here that it's not just WWE misusing him, it's that WWE is asking him to re-sign for FIVE YEARS! That was the initial offer and there's no way with the ever changing landscape that WWE is going to lesser the years; they want a full time commitment. If you're Ambrose, why would you suddenly change your mind and sign up for five more years when WWE creative cannot be trusted? So what if his friend is back; I've worked with friends myself in the past and that didn't change the fact that the job was shitty and I had to get out of it. And like Coach said, there's ways to stay in touch if they want to.

Unless WWE suddenly overhauls the creative process and lessens Dean's offer to three years, neither of which are happening, then he's out and he will be wrestling elsewhere. And he won't be the only one before the end of the year.

Prime Time
04-15-2019, 06:48 AM
So is it worth moving this thread yet?

Powder
04-15-2019, 08:02 AM
Wait til his contract is officially up.

King Kong Sundae
04-22-2019, 08:52 AM
Probably safe now!

SirSam
04-22-2019, 03:53 PM
Damn, what a send off.

I think after getting the farewell he did there is very little chance Dean shows up in another major organization any time soon.

With him now gone at least for the time being where do you think Dean's career tanks on an all time scale?

Cult Icon
04-22-2019, 05:14 PM
I feel like I've had to say this 9,000 plus times now but what's one more; there is no evidence Dean is done. Wade Keller specifically stated in his initial report, and has not walked back on it since, that Dean wasn't done with wrestling, he was just done with WWE. I've seen the footage from these send offs (feels like there's been 30 of them by this point) and in each one you get a brief glimpse of his frustration; at the RAW after Wrestlemania he made a quick jab at WWE's expense about having the fans sit through three hours of the show, was openly mocking WWE booking his farewell over and over again with Rollins and Reigns in the Michael Cole interview and then at the end of that interview pretty clearly stated he no longer was under anyone's control and could do what he wanted. And in between all that he still seemed pretty passionate about wrestling in the rest of his speeches. So until we go months and months without him appearing anywhere, I don't buy it. The only people who have ever said he'd be taking a long break are fans who didn't want him to leave or Ryan "Sasha and Bayley were crying on the floor" Satin. Every other reliable reporter has been saying he was going to continue to wrestle.

Now why would WWE give him this big send off otherwise? My guess is they just wanted to milk The Shield gimmick as much as they could a few more times while also making sure they didn't burn bridges with Dean on the way out. It's also very likely that up until the last minute they were trying to get him to stay and he just never budged. Really though, at the end of the day he wasn't treated all that differently than any other guy leaving. It seems that way because of The Shield stuff but take that away and his last four months before departing were losing almost every match, getting written off by Drew McIntyre twice to lesser effect each time out and then getting humiliated by Bobby Lashley after Lashley said he was going to beat Dean and steal his wife. The guy didn't even get a Mania spot AND wasn't even used last week when there was a shortage of wrestlers due to travel issues. The Shield stuff makes it look better than it was, but in reality Dean's departure wasn't that much different.

T.O.
04-23-2019, 04:11 PM
Good riddance.

Cult Icon
04-23-2019, 05:02 PM
What a coincidence; that's the same thing I say when the Mariners are eliminated from playoff contention every year!

T.O.
04-23-2019, 05:19 PM
Bad rubbish knows bad rubbish.

Cult Icon
05-01-2019, 01:45 AM
So it's time to move this thread. And change the name of it too. Jon Moxley rides again!

Benjamin Button
05-01-2019, 01:52 AM
Or is it Mox?

Benjamin Button
05-01-2019, 01:54 AM
Either way, really gritty. Already better than anything he's done in years. Not saying it's all up hill from here, but good to see some sort of vision for him.

Oliver
05-01-2019, 04:48 AM
The video is fire:

https://twitter.com/JonMoxley/status/1123438186410205184

Breaking out of the prison he's been in, fleeing the Bog Dog and walking past the Viper bar. I might be overinterpreting it here, but I wouldn't be surprised if there are more hidden references in there too.

mizfan
05-01-2019, 02:52 PM
It's a little on the nose, but it did get me more excited about the possibility of Moxley out in the world than anything else has so far. Gonna wait for him to debut somewhere before I change the thread though. :)

Cult Icon
05-01-2019, 02:55 PM
It's a little on the nose

In other words, not enough WALTER.

mizfan
05-01-2019, 03:00 PM
In other words, not enough WALTER.

https://media.giphy.com/media/uHox9Jm5TyTPa/giphy.gif

Team Farrell
05-01-2019, 03:22 PM
Weak production value. Too dark. What is this, HBO?

LK3185
05-01-2019, 03:30 PM
^zing

Prime Time
05-05-2019, 10:57 AM
Few reports surfacing today that Impact have joined the battle for his signature in the last few days.

mizfan
05-05-2019, 09:07 PM
I think he'd be absolutely nuts to head that way. Impact has improved from their lowest point in many ways but they have no hype whatsoever right now and their brand is still poisoned despite their best efforts.

LifeLostInRewind
05-05-2019, 10:13 PM
And that's a great way to burn your bridges with Vince. That would make things for Renee Young a lot more awkward.

LK3185
05-05-2019, 10:43 PM
And going to AEW wouldn't? AEW the company that's backed by the Khans and already has talent around them that WWE has had and/or wanted? I don't believe in any burned bridges in WWE forever but if I did, Moxley going to AEW would burn that bridge way faster than life support Impact.

Cult Icon
05-06-2019, 01:02 AM
If Jon Moxley decided to go back to WWE tomorrow and become Dean Ambrose again they'd take him back in a heartbeat. The same goes for CM Punk. Neither of these guys burned any bridges with WWE because at the end of the day they're big enough stars that WWE would instantly take them back. The problem isn't that Moxley burned his bridges (or will if he goes to AEW, Impact, wherever) with WWE, but that, like Punk, WWE burned their bridge with him. They spent so many years giving him what he felt to be shit material that he just couldn't take it any more and here we are. I think the fact that WWE did all of that Shield stuff and treated him as well as they did on the way out (though not as well as most claim because he still lost in humiliating fashion most of the time), only for him to then still decide to leave and go elsewhere should be telling of his mindset. They offered him money, they tried convincing him up to the final minute to stay, they treated him better than most guys leaving are treated...and he still left. The bridge was burned; it was just WWE doing the burning. That's why we're here.

So no; regardless of what Moxley does, be it go to AEW, Impact or just stick to the indies, he won't have burned his bridge with WWE because they'll always want him back. It's them who burned the bridge down and unless WWE becomes the only big game in town again or can eventually give Mox what he wants, I don't think you'll see him back until the Hall of Fame. We all thought in time that Cody Rhodes and even Punk would return despite feeling creatively unsatisfied; one of them is still retired (though perhaps not for long) and the other started a company as opposed to going back. I see Moxley going down a similar path.

LifeLostInRewind
05-06-2019, 06:45 AM
And going to AEW wouldn't? AEW the company that's backed by the Khans and already has talent around them that WWE has had and/or wanted? I don't believe in any burned bridges in WWE forever but if I did, Moxley going to AEW would burn that bridge way faster than life support Impact.

He would burn bridges either way, but at least with AEW (if he wanted to work at another promotion), it would be more beneficial for him.

mizfan
05-06-2019, 05:37 PM
Hard to imagine WWE wouldn't happily snap up anybody with even slight name value no matter how they were associated with AEW or any other promotion. They might not use them well when they get them, but that's another story.

Prime Time
05-13-2019, 11:02 AM
Either way, it sounds like he's signed on to do a movie, so the return of JoDean Ambroxley will have to wait for a couple of months, I think.

King Kong Sundae
05-19-2019, 01:40 PM
Jake Hager implied he's going to be on Double or Nothing

Cult Icon
05-27-2019, 01:22 AM
It's time to move this thread. It's time to rename this thread. Dean Ambrose is dead and so soon will be Juice Robinson cause Jon Moxley, in addition to joining AEW, is heading to New Japan. It's the Mox's world and I just happen to be cracking bad jokes in it.

T.O.
05-27-2019, 05:54 AM
Let's kick him in the fellas too.

SirSam
05-27-2019, 06:19 AM
It's been an incredible 48 hours to be a Jon Moxley fan. AEW & NJPW and from his appearance on the show and then this (https://twitter.com/AEWrestling/status/1132859918338236418) promo it appears he is unleashed and right behind this whole thing.

I'm interested to see how he adapts to NJPW's style, Juice works a very American style so they will work very well together but if it is a more long term deal I'm not sure how he matches up with someone like Naito or Ibushi.

Personally I'd love to see him against Minoru Suzuki, they both have such a great presence in the ring and are experts at dealing out and selling pain.

LK3185
05-27-2019, 09:55 AM
He's full time with AEW but i'm hoping he's in the G1 so he can do all the big matches in one swoop. Not saying this isn't great but I do worry the first time an AEW talent gets hurt wrestling in another promotion. That could end all the international bookings.

SirSam
05-28-2019, 05:39 AM
The G1 would be something of a dream.

mizfan
05-28-2019, 05:50 PM
Hard to even wrap my mind around what that would look like but I'd love to see it for myself.

Oliver
05-29-2019, 06:15 AM
Yeah, I'd love to see him turn up in the G1.

I'm going to be honest, I want to see more of what h can do outside of the WWE before getting really, really excited about his return to the indy circuit. I thought he was excellent on FCW, and in The Shield, but his solo work rarely got me excited on the main roster. I'm sure there were reasons for that, but for me there's a certain amount of trepidation around getting excited right now.

Mystic
05-29-2019, 09:06 AM
Just a heads up: Talk Is Jericho - The Emancipation of Jon Moxley is out as of this morning.

comfortablynumb
05-29-2019, 10:02 AM
Nothing really too surprising. Definitely confirms our assumptions of his mindset.

Mystic
05-29-2019, 10:09 AM
Yeah. It's not a "bombshell" interview. It's a "details" interview. Which, in some ways, is more damning. Working for WWE became an actual trauma for this man--physically, psychologically, ill. If it did one thing for me, it demonstrates how AEW (and other promotions) *are* an alternative at the structural, base level of what pro wrestling is or isn't. People get lost in the rhetoric ("They say they are an "alternative" but then they take direct shots.) All of that is noise. What is beneath that, and what actually matters is this: does pro wrestling get to be a place for artists, for authenticity, for individuality or is it a place where you show up to work and people put props on your body and words in your mouth? I'm not even saying there is anything wrong with the latter as *an* option, but for too long, it has felt like *the* option when it literally makes some fans and performers sick. I think there are likely folks who do better in that WWE system, enjoy it, and more power to them. But it's not why I fell in love with pro wrestling, and it's not why some wrestlers got into the business. I hope his words are a call to those who need something else/more than WWE. An injured Dean Ambrose sat at home listening to artists from all kinds of genres perform on stage and couldn't remember the last time he felt like that. For those of us who are here for the individual, the artist, the authenticity, this is a shot that fires beyond words. It is the action of the thing. The freedom of the thing. The opportunity of the thing. I don't wish ill will towards WWE, but I want a space back as a wrestling fan for what I believe in, and I want a space for those who carry this kind of relation to the business.

Powder
05-29-2019, 10:40 AM
I think it is very weird that Moxley was on Jericho's Pod Cast, which was obviously pre-recorded and released today, after Moxley attacked Jericho at DON.

I know wrestling is scripted, but the timing is off, and the curtain is completely pulled back. Moxey sits down with Jericho to answer some questions with the guy he then goes and attacks, and then the interview is released.

Weird timing.

comfortablynumb
05-29-2019, 10:48 AM
I think if you're listening to a Talk is Jericho podcast, you are probably enough of a fan to separate the performers from the actual people. He did the same during his feud with Kenny Omega.

Powder
05-29-2019, 10:51 AM
Completely agree, but the timing is weird.

mizfan
05-29-2019, 11:17 AM
Yeah, I'd love to see him turn up in the G1.

I'm going to be honest, I want to see more of what h can do outside of the WWE before getting really, really excited about his return to the indy circuit. I thought he was excellent on FCW, and in The Shield, but his solo work rarely got me excited on the main roster. I'm sure there were reasons for that, but for me there's a certain amount of trepidation around getting excited right now.

Definitely get this take and was feeling it myself until recently, but I'm catching the hype again after seeing how motivated he looked at DoN and in the promos he's since released. At the very least I'm deeply curious to see how he looks in a singles match now that he put together on his own terms.

Mystic
05-29-2019, 11:22 AM
I think it is very weird that Moxley was on Jericho's Pod Cast, which was obviously pre-recorded and released today, after Moxley attacked Jericho at DON.

I know wrestling is scripted, but the timing is off, and the curtain is completely pulled back. Moxey sits down with Jericho to answer some questions with the guy he then goes and attacks, and then the interview is released.

Weird timing.



I share your hesitation, and I might would have had it elsewhere, but I did like that Jericho at least started by saying it was taped and if Moxley were here today, he'd slap him in the face.

mizfan
05-29-2019, 11:53 AM
I like that Jericho added that. I don't think it's strictly necessary but there could be mileage in the idea that Moxley sat there calmly answering questions, knowing all the time that Jericho was in his cross-hairs.

Cult Icon
05-29-2019, 12:43 PM
Tremendous podcast and I do think it will be a bombshell in some ways. I wasn't surprised that he felt the way he did about WWE using Roman's leukemia for the angle but I was stunned to hear that they wanted him to say a line about Roman that he felt could've gotten him fired because it was in such poor taste. It had to be pretty wild given he wouldn't even say it on the podcast either. It makes you wonder how uncomfortable Roman and Seth were with the whole thing as well. And while I personally wasn't stunned by this, I think many people will be stunned to hear that he really didn't enjoy those last few months in WWE even when they were doing all the Shield stuff. Everyone thought that was such a nice sendoff and instead Mox made it sound more like an emotionless cash grab, one which he didn't really make that much off of if you believe what he said in them only paying $500 for that last show.

It was a fitting podcast in a way. I always thought Mox was the next CM Punk and what do you know; he fulfilled that destiny in one form. I also think, just listening to his discuss towards WWE's environment and creative process, that we'll never see him back there unless there's a complete overhaul. Maybe a HOF appearance but that's it. He's done otherwise.

comfortablynumb
05-29-2019, 03:41 PM
I liked the story of him getting a call from Vince as he was shooting his free agent announcement video.

Alan
05-30-2019, 12:45 AM
Terrific podcast. I personally liked the bit where out of his own planning and free-wheeling creativity he produced a promotional success like the trailer with just a 8,000$ budget and a friend of his who makes movies, and it was a massive success at generating buzz, excitement, and introducing the character, meanwhile Vince with his 40+ years in the business at the top, and a gigantic army of writers and other staff were coming up with shit like distasteful cancer references and ass inoculations. Also loved the fact that he said that Vince and HHH tried to bury him on his way with Nia Jax and 2-min EC3 squashes, and when this lead to the house show and Raw audiences predictably cheering him harder, turning him into the top babyface and shitting on the company, Vince - after all these years of Punk and Bryan - was shocked and furious. And then Vince had the temerity to ask Ambrose to 'Do me a favour pal, extend your contract and do the [brutal] European tour for me, will ya?', after also only paying him $500 for that network special.

The old man has not only lost his marbles, but also doesn't even know the value of not pointlessly burning bridges with people, only to then ask them for favours the next day as if nothing happened...

Oliver
05-30-2019, 05:47 AM
I think if you're listening to a Talk is Jericho podcast, you are probably enough of a fan to separate the performers from the actual people. He did the same during his feud with Kenny Omega.

That Omega one was excellent, by the way.

Mizfan - I mean, I get that. Moxley's promo work has always been terrific and when he was allowed a chance to show it in WWE (the Wiliam Regal 'you broke my heart' promo in FCW is probably one of my all time favourites, for example) he really nailed it.

Hearing about how the scripting process wore him down isn't dissimilar to how I feel about 90% of WWE performers - you let them go off the cuff and their promos instantly improve.

Does make me wonder how much of the promo side of The Shield, during those backstage/handheld camera stuff, was scripted tightly. Those always had the air of being less scripted than other stuff, partly (I guess) from presentation but also from the way the words in them mattered.

mizfan
05-30-2019, 04:53 PM
I had the idea that the scripting has become more overbearing the past 5 years but not sure if I heard that somewhere or just made it up in my head.

It does make you wonder what Moxley was too disgusted to say. This is the same company that had Stephanie screech at Freddie Blassie that he was about to die right before he, you know, actually did die, so I assume nothing is off the table.

One big takeaway from that part is that these "shooting on real life tragedy" angles are flat out disgusting. The defense that always is trotted out is "I'm sure everyone involved was ok with it", well guess what, clearly that's not the case. People get pushed into doing stuff they don't want to do for a whole variety of reasons. It's always shit and it never gets good heat anyway.

Alan
05-30-2019, 09:36 PM
For a supposedly over-the-top PG product, Vince certainly has a habit of coming up with tone-deaf distasteful angles.

Degenerate
05-31-2019, 04:07 AM
The WWE always tries to see how far they can take things before someone threatens their best interests (mostly money).

I listened to the Jericho podcast this morning and that sure was an eye-opener. Not so much that it's shocking stuff, but it's stuff that most of us had heard or suspected and it was confirmed by someone who directly dealt with it. It gives a lot more credibility to other people who have been a bit vocal in their dissatisfaction recently (Sasha Banks, The Revival, etc.).

EDIT: Also, from here on out, whenever I see a horribly cringe-worthy angle develop on WWE television, I will envision Vince McMahon backstage just saying "That's some good shit! That's so you!".

mizfan
05-31-2019, 12:42 PM
There's no doubt Vince loves to shock people with his idea of edgy moments. This is the guy who came up with Katie Vick, after all!

SirSam
06-04-2019, 11:28 PM
I think the thing that felt so good about the Jericho podcast is that Moxley went in depth on the creative process and how it is failing the performers. In the process though he justified a lot of the things people in this community have been saying for years but we have been told we don't understand what we are talking about.

I'm really excited to see him wrestle tonight in New Japan. In many ways he is up against a very WWE style opponent in Juice but I'll be interested to see if his style or moveset changes at all.

Will also be interesting to see how the Japanese crowd reacts to him.

Oliver
06-05-2019, 08:51 AM
Looks like Mox has some new(ish) gear - short biker short style things - and a new twist on his finisher, a sort of Impaler version of the Dirty Deeds.

LK3185
06-05-2019, 09:14 AM
Was a damn good match with Juice. love the new finish.

mizfan
06-05-2019, 10:14 AM
Really pleased to hear the match went so well. I never wrote the guy off but I definitely had big concerns about him. Thought maybe he was burnt out, not hungry anymore. Wondered if the stuff he did in WWE was his new idea of "good". The biggest revelation out of all this is just how much WWE limits some of their talent. We all figured Moxley was better than the stuff he was handed, but this is really an incredible re-emergence so far. Bravo to the man for reversing his narrative virtually overnight.

Powder
06-05-2019, 10:35 AM
I wonder how long until Renee leaves WWE. Moxley apparently signed a multi year deal, and will be travelling to Japan, so their schedules must be a bitch to coordinate.

So when does she ask for her release?

Oliver
06-05-2019, 11:10 AM
Why should she? She's got her own career going, she doesn't need to tie herself to Moxley.

Alan
06-05-2019, 11:25 AM
Why should she? She's got her own career going, she doesn't need to tie herself to Moxley.

Lots of reasons. First is the schedule. Given how terrible the WWE schedule is for marriages, I could see her leaving to go somewhere with a more amenable schedule, or one where she isn't traveling so much. There's also the fact that ESPN really wanted her, but she chose to stay with WWE. Maybe she stayed because she really likes WWE, or maybe it was because she could be with Dean. She doesn't really need to stay in WWE unless she really wants to.

Cult Icon
06-05-2019, 11:26 AM
Not only that but I'm pretty sure they'll be spending as much time together as they did before. It's not like Moxley is working every single day; New Japan tours are not a constant thing (and Mox won't be a constant fixture on them) and it doesn't seem like AEW will be doing house shows when they start up. And unless I'm missing something Renee doesn't work house shows given that she's an announcer and WWE doesn't need announcers for those shows. So I don't really think that's a big deal. If Renee leaves WWE it'll be because the company is taking out their frustrations towards Moxley on her (which I don't see them doing because that would cause a myriad of issues for them) or because she wants to go do something like ESPN or whatever (where she's had interest in the past). Otherwise this is a non issue.

As for the match, yeah it was terrific. I obviously haven't seen much of Mox over the last few years but it was miles ahead of his stuff with Seth and Bray back in the day, and he was helped greatly by career best work from Juice Robinson. Given some of the things I've heard about Mox's WWE performances it does seem to suggest that promos weren't the only thing he was overproduced on, which makes you wonder just how much some other talents in WWE are being held back if that's the case.

LK3185
06-05-2019, 12:40 PM
The things he did in the ring wasn't that far off from what he would do in WWE, except the submissions. Its just there was more purpose and less whackiness with his offense... What i'm trying to say in praising the match is that Mox could have had matches like that in WWE all the time.. its not groundbreaking stuff but they are put in this box where they can only do these moves, here and if you don't do them, its off.

I felt a definite change in the motivation too.

mizfan
06-05-2019, 01:18 PM
Can someone make me very happy and confirm he didn't use the rebound clothesline? :)

Cult Icon
06-05-2019, 02:56 PM
I'll be that guy; at least from my eye the rebound clothesline never appeared. He did deliver several really great lariats though.

LK3185
06-05-2019, 03:31 PM
The only thing i saw Mox do that I wish he didn't was a suicide dive. I think that of 90% of wrestlers but his isn't very good.

No rebound clothsline, not even a tease which is a good thing. No running to the corner. No middle rope elbow drop to a standing opponent.

Mystic
06-05-2019, 06:22 PM
In the first Road to Fyter Fest video, this man Jon Moxley said to Joey Janella: "Think of it like Amazon Prime for head trauma."

LK3185
06-05-2019, 06:35 PM
Maybe Mox did need to be scripted. haha

Oliver
06-06-2019, 06:29 AM
God, I fucking hate the rebound clothesline. Not just on Ambrose/Moxley - on anyone. I didn't like it when Gargano did it against Cole, for example (especially not after receiving three superkicks, like) but as a normal move it's just ridiculous.

I want to praise Juice, because that guy busted his butt to get a new performer over with a new crowd. Mox certainly had some crowd support going in and it seemed like the crowd knew what to look for with the finish, but I thought Juice elevated Moxley a lot during that one match.

I bloody love Juice.

mizfan
06-06-2019, 12:32 PM
Not sure what to make of "Think of it like Amazon Prime for head trauma", as in I'm literally not sure what it means, but I'll gladly take the unscripted duds along with the unscripted brilliance rather than sitting through 100% scripted shit. :)

Yay for no rebound clothesline! Nobody has ever made that move look good, not even Nigel. Really like that Moxley is changing up wrestling as well as his attire and other aspects of himself, it comes off super fresh. I've only seen gifs so far but Juice indeed looks like he decided to die in the best possible ways in this match.

Cult Icon
06-06-2019, 12:46 PM
People didn't like that line? I thought it was an awesome line and I thought the promo was brilliant. I honestly haven't heard Mox cut a bad promo since getting his new found freedom. Even the brief post match promo he cut in New Japan yesterday was awesome.

Team Farrell
06-06-2019, 12:49 PM
The only match I'm interested in anymore in Mox vs Suzuki. New Japan won't book it though, because then wrestling might as well end since it would be pointless to continue.

Oliver
06-06-2019, 01:38 PM
Would you rather Mox vs Suzuki over Mox vs Ishii? I mean, those two have both got me quite excited for a potential G1 run, for sure.

mizfan
06-06-2019, 01:55 PM
I want Moxley vs. everyone, to be honest. So many great possibilities.

Cult Icon
06-06-2019, 02:19 PM
I'm fairly certain you guys are all going to get what you want relatively soon.

LK3185
06-06-2019, 02:51 PM
Mox in G1 confirmed yet? i'd almost hold off on Suzuki/Mox until Wrestle Kingdom if i could.

Team Farrell
06-06-2019, 03:13 PM
i'd almost hold off on Suzuki/Mox until Wrestle Kingdom if i could.
Make sense. Wrestling can't get better than that match, so if you're going to cancel all wrestling after a match you might as well wait until WK.

T.O.
06-06-2019, 03:31 PM
I'm fairly certain you guys are all going to get what you want relatively soon.

ROCK/CENA III?!?!

Oliver
06-07-2019, 05:18 AM
Nuts to that, I want a fourth WM HHH/Taker match.

GIVE ME WHAT i WANT, IKEN!

Now I want to go back and watch Suzuki matches.

SirSam
06-07-2019, 08:59 AM
He is going against Shota Umino at Dominion and I am so pumped. Shota is a guy that intentionally targets Minoru Suzuki in a tag match, he basically has a death wish but also has a ton of fight so it will be a damn fun match as Mox crushes a mosquito that is trying its hardest to bite him.

In relation to the Juice match I would agree he didn't do a whole lot more than he did in WWE but the fire and intensity he bought was right up there with when he blazed his way up the midcard opposite Seth back in 2014. Juice deserves so much praise as he nearly killed himself getting this match over but you could see Jon leading the action throughout.

Also it was a great way to debut a new supped up finisher.

Going forward I really hope he gets in the G1, with AEW poised to grow this year is almost now or never (at least for a few years) and it would be a great way for him to get a whole lot of big name matches in quick succession. Also I've been piloting the Moxley v Suzuki hype train since before he even left WWE so I'm glad to see so many people getting on board.

Degenerate
06-10-2019, 04:12 AM
It's not official yet but given that Moxley took the mic and said he wanted in the G1 last night, I think it's safe to assume he will be in. That's fantastic news. No matter which block he's in, I'm sure there will be a lot of great matches happening.

I also like how it seems he'll be taking Umino under his wing after last night's match. It kind of adds a new layer to that character, where he actually associates with someone instead of being a loner who wants to beat everyone up. It'll be fun to see how they mesh.

Team Farrell
06-10-2019, 10:46 AM
Yeah, Mox, Kenta, Shingo and Ospreay all got on the mic to announce. I didn't realize it was that easy to get in. It's like the Royal Rumble.

Now, excuse me while I record a quick video...

EDIT: Goddamn, I just saw his post match promo. Beautiful! Pulling Umino up by the hair to go have "many sake". I hope that they team them together on the G1 tour.

mizfan
06-10-2019, 12:59 PM
Really awesome that Moxley will (likely) actually be in G1. Incredible how fast things have moved with him, couldn't be more pleased for the guy.

SirSam
06-11-2019, 08:26 PM
If he was gona be in ther G1 at some point this is the year to do it given for at least the next few he will most likely be tied up with AEW TV commitments.

The Shota Umino thing is an interesting wrinkle to his character, he is also a guy that respects those who put up a good fight. I’m looking forward to seeing their tag team antics in the G1 off nights.

Degenerate
06-18-2019, 09:57 PM
The Wrestling Observer was reporting that AEW isn't allowing Moxley to work any New Japan dates in the United States, which is why he's not booked on the G1 show in Dallas. It's unfortunate that the company's United States champion can't work in the United States.

LK3185
06-19-2019, 03:18 AM
Unfortunate but not unexpected. Would be worse if they promoted him for a big US title match in the states only to pull him later. They never advertised him for the Dallas show and would have been in a throwaway tag anyway

mizfan
06-19-2019, 02:55 PM
Yup, I figured we wouldn't see him in the states so I never got hyped for it in the first place. Probably also a sign that Moxley won't hold that title too long past the G1, though I could see them taking him to Wrestle Kingdom if the dates work out with AEW.

SirSam
06-21-2019, 09:25 AM
Man am I excited for Mox in the G1, am a little sad the Suzuki match isn't happening but maybe that could be one for the Dome if Suzuki doesn't end up there with Liger.

Even just his match with Yano promises to be really fun and that isn't even to list off the killers in the B Block: Ishii, Cobb, Goto, Shingo, it is an impressive list of guys he will have to absorb punishment from.

Also I read somewhere that he was once in a stable with Shingo. Does anyone know if their history is any way significant? Some people have said they didn't really interact but I also saw one promo of Moxley berating Shingo after a loss so I'm not sure what to believe.

Prime Time
06-21-2019, 09:35 AM
I don't know for sure, hopefully someone with more knowledge will be able to come in and clear it up - but my guess is the briefest of interactions for someone like DG:USA?

mizfan
06-21-2019, 02:20 PM
Moxley and Shingo did indeed share a stable in Dragon Gate USA, but I don't think they ever actually shared a ring together, not for a match of any kind anyway. My impression is they interacted a little but not much, so there probably isn't too much to read into there.

LK3185
06-21-2019, 02:40 PM
I also remember Moxley in an interview with Cabana like right after he signed with WWE I think, say he didn’t like the DG style.

Also said that the indies were a stepping stone to WWE. Amazing how times have changed

mizfan
06-24-2019, 04:13 PM
I can easily see Mox not meshing that well with the DG style, though if he does mix it up with CIMA at some point I'm sure he'll make it work!

SirSam
06-25-2019, 06:23 PM
Bit of a shame that Moxley won’t be on the Dallas card. Completely understandable for a business point of view but at the same time that is a lame excuse for people who were excited to see him. Makes me wonder if they realised they couldn’t use him when they put the US Championship on him.

LK3185
06-25-2019, 06:40 PM
I’m sure they knew. They never advertised him for the Dallas show. Would think if they were going to add him for the show, it would be promoted to sell tix

SirSam
06-28-2019, 05:25 PM
This match with Janella has me very pumped, the promos from Janella have been absolute fire and the response video from Moxley that came out in thr last few days was incredible. Without saying a word you could see the fire in Moxley's eyes.

I think we're gona get something crazy at Fyter Fest.

Degenerate
06-28-2019, 08:56 PM
The promo work behind that match (and other AEW matches in general) has been really solid. I went from "that looks like it would be a fun match to eventually watch" to "I really, really need to see this" with just a few well-done videos.

The fact that they labeled this a "non-sanctioned match" really gives that vibe that it's gonna be a violent one. Hard to temper one's expectations after all this.

mizfan
06-29-2019, 10:31 AM
Presentation matters so much. This kind of stuff really gives me confidence that AEW is going to be the kind of promotion I can really sink my teeth into.

SirSam
08-16-2019, 12:39 AM
Moxley was such a good presence in the G1. His charisma and style really shon through and while I'd say there were probably some rougher moments early he adapted to the New Japan style very quickly.

The stuff with Shota Umino was also incredible, made the tag matches must see when normally I'd pass on them. One day when Shota is the IWGP Heavyweight Champ you just know we are going to hear that guitar lick and Mox is going to come to the ring ready to test his Young Lion one final time.

As much as I like AEW I really just want to see him full time in New Japan. XO

Degenerate
08-16-2019, 03:31 AM
He certainly brought something different to the tournament, and it seems the fans really appreciated his presence there. His post-match interviews were golden too, with his interactions with Umino. I'll forever call him "Shooter" from here on out.

I don't know how his situation will play out when AEW's schedule gets busy, but I really hope he has a lot more Japan tours coming up soon and he doesn't just drop the U.S. title to Juice and disappears for a bit. He still has so many good potential matches that were on the opposing G1 block to have that we haven't seen yet - Okada, Tanahashi, Suzuki, Ibushi, SANADA, EVIL, Kenta. I pretty much want to see all of those matchups.

Oliver
08-16-2019, 08:42 AM
Maybe he drops the title but drifts in and out for a bit, then comes into the G1 next year to tick some or all of those off the list Degen?

Honestly, I think Juice could do with a chance to move up to the IC title picture. Dude is putting together possibly the best non-Ospreay/Ibushi year in ring for NJPW right now, for me (when you take out the once in a lifetime types like Okada who will always be in that mix) and has improved year on year in NJPW. I fear he might become 'the US Title guy' if NJPW aren't careful, and I really think he is both better in the ring and more over with the fans than that moniker perhaps suggests.

I wonder if there's someone else from the G1 who could take the belt from Moxley, having beaten him, and then subsequently let Juice move up to the IC picture while Moxley is 'away'.

Cult Icon
08-16-2019, 10:52 AM
The latest word is Moxley is signed with New Japan through the Dome shows, but his AEW contract allows him to work Japan in addition to AEW. So it's really up to New Japan. If they want to continue the relationship, they will.

Team Farrell
08-16-2019, 10:53 AM
Apparently he's signed through WrestleKingdom, and one would think that he has at least four defenses coming up.

What's the point of the US Title? Wasn't it supposed to be the crown jewel of their US expansion and have guys like Kenny and The Elite holding it? With them gone, couldn't you just kill it off? Maybe Mox could "forget it at home" and we never see it again.

LK3185
08-16-2019, 11:30 AM
Just another prop for the Wrestlers to fight over. They honestly don't go to the states enough for it to really matter. Especially since no one cares about the ROH relationship anymore.

SirSam
08-19-2019, 06:16 AM
I agree about the Juice thoughts Oli, he is having a killer year and I think the sky is the limit with him long term and having him tethered to the US Championship is not ideal given that it seems to occupy a space even lower on the totem pole than the NEVER. If I was going to pick someone to just have a beastly run it would be ARcher. Have him beat Moxley for it and do an American run while Juice aims for something else, that White Strap would look damn good around his waist.

I think I also don't just want to see Mox v Juice again, I love the first two matches but there are so many other opponents I would love to see Mox up against that it seems a shame to have him constantly revolving around Juice.

mizfan
08-19-2019, 04:43 PM
Hey, Archer with the US title is actually a great idea! Nice reward for how well he did in the G1, if nothing else.

Oliver
08-20-2019, 11:05 AM
Archer would be cool, for sure. I'd like to see that.

Prime Time
01-07-2020, 11:30 AM
I'm not sure anyone can really break through in the current wrestling climate to being a real star. But if I had to pick anyone... I think I'd still pick Moxley as the most likely. And that's weird, given that AEW has no mainstream audience to speak of.