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Powder
04-10-2019, 02:48 PM
I am not completely sure if we as a forum have ever debated or discussed what we think the best match from an American Wrestling Company is of all time.

First some ground rules (my thread, my rules).

By American Company, I mean no match from any company based outside the US (but non American wrestlers who worked for American companies are). WWF, WWE, NXT, OVW, WCW, NWA, ECW, ROH, CZW etc. are all fair game.

It has to be a great wrestling match, not just because of the crowd making it great (Hogan/Rock WM18), or because of the historical significance (Hogan/Andre WMIII), or because of amazing spots (Taker/Mankind KOTR '98). The key word is wrestling, wich incorpoates storytelling as well.


My first few suggestions are (in no particular order):


Randy Savage vs Ricky Steamboat from Wrestlemania III
Shawn Michaels vs The Undertaker from Wrestlemania 25
Rick Flair vs Terry Funk I Quit Match from Clash of the Champions IX
The Dudley Boyz vs. the Hardy Boyz vs. Edge and Christian from WrestleMania X-Seven
Steve Austin vs Bret Hart from Wrestlemania 13



Thoughts and suggestions????

meandi
04-10-2019, 03:00 PM
Benoit/Angle- Royal Rumble 2003. Pretty sure this is what started Benoit’s epic 14-15 month arc culminating at ‘Mania 20.

LWO4Life
04-10-2019, 04:09 PM
Flair/Steamboat, any one from 1989 you want
Michaels/Angle WM21
Eddie Guerrero & Art Barr vs. El Hijo De Santo & Octagon from When World's Collide (co promoted AAA and WCW)

mizfan
04-10-2019, 04:30 PM
Worth throwing that famous 3way, Styles/Joe/Daniels, from Unbreakable '05 in the mix.

Powder
04-10-2019, 05:38 PM
Totally forgot about Eddie Guerrero vs. Dean Malenko - 2-out-of-3 Falls Match - ECW 1995

mizfan
04-10-2019, 09:32 PM
Oh, Owen vs. Bret from WMX has to be in the conversation! As well as Punk/Cena MITB '11 and Benoit/HHH/HBK from WMXX.

Mystic
04-10-2019, 11:08 PM
Michaels vs. Bret WM XII
Michaels vs. Foley Mind Games
Michaels vs. Undertaker Badd Blood

Gooner
04-11-2019, 04:23 AM
Worth throwing that famous 3way, Styles/Joe/Daniels, from Unbreakable '05 in the mix.

This was the one that I first thought of.



Michaels/Angle WM21


And that was the second!

I'll add into the mix Cena vs Edge, TLC Match at Unforgiven 2006

Powder
04-11-2019, 08:14 AM
Punk/Cena MITB '11


I absolutely LOVE this match and I can rewatch it at any time, but it is a good 'wrestling" match? The crowd was HOT, and the story for the match was one of the best of all time, seriously. Punk cutting the Pipebomb, rising to main event level, challenging Cena and then "leaving with the title" b/c his contract was up, and Cena preventing Johnny Ace from ringing the bell. Brilliant storytelling.

But was the actual match better than other matches listed? I'm not sore sure.

I think that Punk/Cena and Rock/Hogan are probably the 2 best matches of all time with storytelling coupled with a HOT crowd of all time, but Rock/Hogan was not great wrestling, and as I stated I'm not so sure that the wrestling between Cena and Punk was as good as other matches mentioned in the thread.

mizfan
04-11-2019, 10:24 AM
I think you're wandering into highly subjective territory there, powder. If the key word is wrestling, incorporating storytelling, I think it's a match that belongs in the conversation with any, and it had one of the hottest crowds ever as a bonus. So what is it lacking? It holds up for me every time I rewatch it.

Powder
04-11-2019, 10:40 AM
Not sure if you saw my first line...


I absolutely LOVE this match and I can rewatch it at any time

But is the wrestling between Cena and Punk better than HBK vs Taker? Or Macho vs Steamboat etc? I do not think so.

My idea of the initial post was:


It has to be a great wrestling match, not just because of the crowd making it great (Hogan/Rock WM18), or because of the historical significance (Hogan/Andre WMIII), or because of amazing spots (Taker/Mankind KOTR '98). The key word is wrestling, which incorporates storytelling as well.

So I stand by my assessment, that Punk/Cena is one of the best matches of all time (could be in the top 3 of all time b/c it has good wrestling, an amazing crowd, probably the best storyline associated ever with the match, but not in the top wrestling matches.

To my point, the WWE Title match between RVD and Cena at One Night Stand had an amazing crowd, but it was not a great wrestling match, but it had a top 5 HOT crowd of all time.

mizfan
04-11-2019, 12:04 PM
So what then exactly makes "great" wrestling? Did they need to do more moves? Is it about technique or crispness? Is there a specific element of striking or high flying? More kickouts? More finishers? What specifically is a match like Punk/Cena missing that would disqualify it?

Prime Time
04-11-2019, 12:07 PM
So what then exactly makes "great" wrestling?

The illusion, the flow, making it feel natural, so that your set pieces don't look like set pieces, and so that you don't ever look like you are working together.

That said, while it's an easy answer for me, if you don't subscribe to my view of things I'll agree with you it becomes incredibly nebulous. I'd also have to revisit the match under discussion to see if it passes or fails by my criteria.

mizfan
04-11-2019, 12:13 PM
And that's cool, I totally get that. I think everybody has slightly different criteria, which is what makes a question like this so hard to nail down.

Powder
04-11-2019, 12:25 PM
And that's the point of the question.

But Mizzie, I do not think the match is missing anything, per-say, but we all know what we get from Cena. Yes he is a much better wrestler than he is given credit for, but he is what he is. Punk was an outstanding wrestler by contrast.

Just look to WM35, Bryan made Kofi look like a million bucks. That match had a great story, a heavily invested crowd (not HOT), and that match was better than Punk/Cena, but the overall product of Punk/Cena is light years ahead of Kofi/Bryan. Which is why I say that Punk/Cena is a top 5 match of all time because of everything involved, but from a wrestling, a pure wrestling standpoint, it is not as good. That does not discount from the match, but just not as good.

My idea of "the best wrestling match of all time" is very different than the "best match of all time"

The best match of all time's list includes:

Hogan/Andre - WMIII
Hogan/Rock - WM18
Taker/Foley - KOTR '98
Punk/Cena - MITB '11

All 4 of those had a much bigger impact on the business and made lasting impressions on people, and will live on in infamy. As much as I love the Malenko/Eddie match from ECW that I listed, that match is not memorable to the non-smartmark/nerds like us, and others like it. Bret vs Owen is a great match, but it is not near the impact of the 4 listed.

Prime Time
04-11-2019, 12:30 PM
There's still no real reason why in that post, though. It's just repeating that it's not as good rather than offering something that justifies that.

Does it become even harder to explain if it's not missing anything?!

meandi
04-11-2019, 12:35 PM
Cena has had all his best matches against former Indy darlings. Look no further than Summer Slam ‘13 against AmDrag. That match was ace and he looked like a million bucks. I’m also submitting that match for this thread.

Powder
04-11-2019, 12:36 PM
I guess you could explain it like the way that the Supreme Court tried to define obscene material:

"I may not be able to define it, but I know it when I see it."

Same could be said about the match. I may not truly be able to put into words why the match is not as good as others, but I know when watching, why the other matches are better.

Oliver
04-13-2019, 05:33 AM
So just to do an RoH list and throw it out there, because there's none mentioned so far.

1. Joe Vs Punk III (from All Star Extravaganza II)
2. Joe Vs Danielson (from Midnight Express Reunion)
3. Joe vs Punk II
4. 2004 Survival of the Fittest final
5. Morishima Vs Danielson

meandi
04-13-2019, 11:19 AM
I love how Punk/Joe 3 was billed as “no time limit” after the first two ended in draws only for the third one to end in, like, 40 minutes or something.

mizfan
04-13-2019, 05:36 PM
Great call throwing some ROH on there. Could see Danielson/McGuinness from Driven and Danielson/KENTA from Glory by Honor '06 in the conversation.

T.O.
05-13-2019, 04:27 PM
The Rock vs John Cena, WrestleMania XXVIII.