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  1. #1
    Word Enthusiast Steven's Avatar
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    The Legacy Series

    Got a message for Shane and mizfan? Maybe want to express your opinion about a specific PPV, wrestler or storyline that they've discussed on the show? Perhaps you'd like to bring up something you thought that they didn't spend enough time on?

    This is the place to do it, as you can use this thread to unearth the forgotten (or overlooked) narratives of The Legacy Series!

  2. #2
    Member #25 SirSam's Avatar
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    Congrats on getting through the series lads. I was a late joiner but have really enjoyed what I have heard from the series and the wrap up episodes are going to be an absolute treat.

  3. #3
    The Brain
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    I'm really glad people have enjoyed the series so much, it's definitely one of the most rewarding wrestling projects I've ever done. Old episodes are all archived on LOPR, and well worth a listen, I think! The finales were tough to record emotionally but I think we put a fantastic bow on the series, so hopefully people enjoy that just as much.

    We've already started recordings for WWF: The Legacy Series, which I think will be a very different but really fantastic ride as well. Current plan it to go from the first Wrestlemania up until XIX, in keeping with the F in WWF (mostly).

  4. #4
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    Yes, please check out the archives when you have time. Particularly whichever episode we covered Flair beating Steamboat and the Funk turn. While we are talking Funk is when I first realized this series could be special.

    Not going to lie, it became a chore between 98-2000 with WCW. The 2-part finale and returning to the 80s with WWF:TLS is rejuvenating me, however.

    Thanks for listening!

  5. #5
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    Was pretty late to the series but have gone back and listened to them all and it's been a fantastic way of passing the time at work. Listened to Mayhem 2000 today so only a few more episodes to go.
    It was around this sort of time that I first became aware of WCW and the first match I saw was a random nitro match between Jarrett and Booker T with 4 boxes on each corner, containing different items. I can remember the title belt being one and coal-miners glove being another but can't remember what else! A few weeks later I got my hands on a video of Slamboree 2000 and for some reason became a fan after watching that event!
    I've really enjoyed the series so far, thanks for doing it and I'm looking forward to WWF The Leagcy Series and being able to listen along as you release each episode. You both come across as so passionate and knowledgeable about the events and it's great to hear the raw emotion from some of Mystic's monologues/rants, particularly about Russo! You can tell it still hurts even nearly 20 years later and I'm fully on-board with trying people on war crimes who can cause that sort of emotion 20 years down the line. Thanks again, great listen.

  6. #6
    The Brain
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    Really cool that there are people catching up out there, great to hear from you Sketch!

    What a thing, to be introduced to WCW via something so Russo-riffic, but you never know what will grab you as a new fan, huh? I will say, there are much, much worse main events from 2000, so you probably lucked out with Slamboree all things considered.

    Thanks for listening man, the finale should pack a real wallop when it comes out!

  7. #7
    Member #25 SirSam's Avatar
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    Shane's intro to the most recent podcast is incredible. Making wrestling seem transcendent. Are you even on this one Mizfan?

    Edit: Powerful Mizfan coming in with the Flair promo.
    Last edited by SirSam; 05-16-2018 at 03:57 AM.

  8. #8
    The Brain
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    Shane's intro plus the Flair promo is probably the most powerful one-two combo we've ever done on the show. We didn't talk about it or plan it out at all, we didn't know what the other was going to say, it just came together and clicked. Really proud of that episode, really glad it came across well.

  9. #9
    People either love me, hate me, or they don't care CanadianCrippler's Avatar
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    It's been a fantastic couple of year's listening to your show. Appreciate the shout outs on the last two episodes, thought you guys would've just perceived me a Marky-Mark with the pestering of more shows but I'm grateful all the more that you guys are letting WCW's legacy have a proper burial.

    Looking forward to what you guys have in store for tomorrow.
    I imagine you'll be paying a lot of homage to Lex, Regal, Ox Baker, Scorpio, Vader and The Hollywood Blondes for a bit, talk a whole bunch of justifiable shit about Hogan, Beefcake, Chamber of Horrors, Sullivan's boner for destroying Hulk' mania and Tony proclaiming it doesn't matter which one's Kane and whib one is Kole.
    And the rest I assume will be what you enjoyed unearthing this dead fed and re-iterate some more on people being trialed for war crimes.

  10. #10
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    Sketch - Thank you for the detailed feedback. I love getting that. One of the strangest things about doing this series is that people have told us they listen to it at work, on the bus, working out, when making a long commute. It's a hell of a pleasure to get to be that kind of service. It's been a hell of a thing. Almost 3 years to complete. And I watched years that I had never allowed myself to (1999-2001). Most of it hurt as bad as I thought it would. However, there was some upside. I really came to like the Magnificent 7 at the end, for example. We have started recording WWF: TLS. I had long forgotten how FUCKIN' AMAZING 80's Randy Savage is.

    SirSam - That was a tough show to do. As were the next two (WCW: TLS Finale Parts I and II). Thank you for bearing witness.

    CC -- I FEEL SO FUCKIN' BAD NOW. WE DIDN'T MENTION OX BAKER!! Thank you for shouting him out! I love those predictions. You aren't far from it, my friend.

    Part I of the WCW: TLS Finale drops today!

  11. #11
    Been really enjoying the nitro..Very emotional guys. Very well done. Great opening by Shane and matched so well by Mizfan's recital of Flair's promo. The words Flair chose were so good. Miz fan really brought them out as sometimes with all Flair's antics you miss out on the words.

    Good job, guys! Looking fwd to hearing the next show this weekend.

  12. #12
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    I'm really enjoying these and trying to listen from the beginning (Starrcade 88) through present but not able to find each episode. Can someone point me to an official archive? i have found some collections of shows but can't seem to find a complete collection at any of the LOPR collection sites (blogspot, etc...)

  13. #13
    The Brain
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    Count me in on regretting that we didn't mention the great Ox Baker. Pretty sure we have to do the whole series over again now.

    Really glad people liked the inclusion of the Flair promo.

    Unfortunately I don't think there's a way to sort Blogtalk to see only the Legacy Series episodes, but for anyone looking to start at the beginning, you can find it here in the list of all LOPR programs that have aired:

    http://www.blogtalkradio.com/lordsofpain/94

    And from there just keep going forward in time. Hope this helps!

  14. #14
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    FANTASTIC!!! Thanks mizfan!

  15. #15
    The Brain
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    My pleasure man! Happy listening!

  16. #16
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    Ben - It was also great that mizfan did that Flair promo because the actual audience-partly because of had far WCW had fallen and partly because it was a spring break audience-didn't know how to fully appreciate the moment.

    BK - Please feel free to post questions or comments about any of those past episodes in this thread.

  17. #17
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    Mystic - Iím working through the end of Ď91 right now (currently listening to the Clash with the big dramatic Sting gift thread reveal) and I was about four years into my wrestling fandom at this point. I was pretty split between the WWF and NWA/WCW but as a native NYer that probably really means I preferred NWA/WCW since I grew up in the heart of McMahon/Hogan country and would have had a natural bias. Gotta just say how great listening to the take that you and mizfan have and the narrative youíre creating. Heading your perspectives on Flair and his departure is unique since the E doesnít let that perspective to exist in todayís wrestling lore. The work you both put in is commendable as all get out.

    Thank you both for some of the varsity club love - huge fan. A fantasy feud of mine for no reason other than some of the members skills parity is a full Varsity Club personnel of the late 80s and Heart Foundation of 97 feud if both factions were at their healthiest and the factions existed at their talent height contemporaneously.

  18. #18
    The Brain
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    A Varsity Club fan!!! You need to stick around my friend, you are certified cool at this point.

  19. #19
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    Heel factions are typically a guilty pleasure of mine. I know you mentioned it in passing during the Capital Combat review, but I still have no idea why they didn't do more with Sullivan's Slaughterhouse. The faction wasn't exactly comprised of guys that are known for sticking around too long and I think Sawyer left right after the group was formed, but they were definitely interesting and pretty talented for what they were.

  20. #20
    The Brain
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    For sure, a Sullivan lead stable of Bigelow and Cactus Jack feels like it has a tremendous amount of upside even without Buzz around.

  21. #21
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    I'm listening to Halloween Havoc '92 and I think the observation about the company being more invested in Sting when he is chasing than when he is champ is really accurate. This comment is made in conjunction with the conversation you guys had about Simmons being booked poorly (and essentially as a midcarder) as champ. What are your thoughts on this trend being in line with and a remnant of the way WCW (and especially the NWA) booked heels to hold the belt and faces to chase? It just seems until Hogan comes in that they have no clue how to book face champions and then the crowd turns on Hogan because he is booked in a more WWF style when he is champ and it's a complete mess.

  22. #22
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    You have me thinking quite a bit on this one, BK.

    Here is some freestyling on what I'm thinking.

    First off, WCW or WWE, it's hard as fuck to book and maintain a babyface champion.

    Hogan in the WWF was one thing, but that was also another kind of era. Austin often lost his belt, was screwed over, but he had the potential to maintain, too. (As evidence that, even in his heel turn, fans weren't having it.)

    One thing you have to have is a babyface champion who will do ANYTHING to become and stay champ.

    Yes, just like a heel...

    Fans don't want to cheer for someone who never needs their cheers, sure, but they damn well don't want to cheer for someone who will goodly, or in the name of good, let them down when it comes to winning.

    Long before draping himself in the flag and the red and yellow, Hulk Hogan was good and right because he was Hulk Hogan. Anything outside of Hulk Hogan, his fans, and his agenda to stay champ needed to be destroyed for the greater good.

    Austin was a face because people loved him and nobody was going to judge him for doing anything under the sun to Vince McMahon.

    Maybe he wasn't good, but he was right.

    And his fans, then, were right.

    Guys like Sting, John Cena, and All American Lex Luger

    are disgusting

    at the heart of the matter

    to their own fans.

    Either they celebrate countout victories (which is not why fans cheered them on) or they won't do anything to win. They are OK losing, as long as they are still good, still keep a standard.

    But the babyface standard of good that truly endures is righteous winning at any cost.

    That is the only I can think to have a babyface maintain.

    Goddamn if Cinderella doesn't have to do all (including getting the outside interference of a fairy god mother) to get what she wants.

    But how do we maintain her?

    She loses a shoe.

    And people try to keep her from what is rightfully hers.

    God wants to anoint David, but all his brothers are trotted out.

    Nobody cheers David for staying with the sheep. We want to see him usurp his brothers. We want him to be King. And what's a little "sending a husband to die so you can fornicate with said husbands wife" as long as you are keeping your people prosperous and victorious?

    We overlook anything bad in the name of good, but if our heroes won't do the same, they will be chasers the rest of their lives.

    I can see the idea of it being an NWA thing, but I think it transcends.

    It is the difficulty of telling a babyface vs. heel story after the victory.

    When we don't roll credits after the win, the only babyface who will maintain behaves like a heel in order to keep the order of the greater good.

    Anything less and the credits will run on you after the initial victory.

  23. #23
    People either love me, hate me, or they don't care CanadianCrippler's Avatar
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    I can't say a bad thing about you guys other than the fact that the dull and dreary PPV's took away your enthusiasm a lot and sometimes portions and durations of some later episodes genuinely felt depressing to listen to and those one's were the one's I didn't revisit for another listen just because of those moments where you guys couldn't create comedy within the tragedy.

    That being said, I'm amazed as a repetitive listener and a semi-casual follower to WCW tv/ppv that you both were able to invest me enough to feel the passion and emotions you both portrayed at length with insightful points, aspects about the human condition otherwise unrecognized when unearthing something vintage, the education of what was surrounding events and delving into the background of lives and occurrences that gave us what we saw and why and finally just the pure entertainment value that I've attributed to felt sense and giving everyone who ever competed a chance no matter what history defined the characters as.

    As someone who always preferred moderate to fast paced 10 to 20 minute matches with either hard shot, high spots or some reality based anything in my pro wrestling fandom. I just have a difficult time watching the eighties to mid nineties because for every great Benoit match, there wasn't a good Benoit storyline. That can be said for too many wrestlers from this company from Brad Armstrong to Bam Bam Bigelow.
    I don't feel the need to join the discussion for criticisms sake as this shit is old as hell and to me it's just a television program (that I'm stupidly obsessed with) that doesn't effect my actual feelings in everyday life. Don't feel the need to comment on every column or podcast either because I'm overall satisfied with your near excellent show.

    It's been a hell of a ride and I look forward to hearing you guys on the other side, hopefully McMahon's coke-a-mania won't make you regret both of your lives decisions!
    Last edited by CanadianCrippler; 05-26-2018 at 07:13 PM. Reason: missed something.

  24. #24
    People either love me, hate me, or they don't care CanadianCrippler's Avatar
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    Don't know how popular Canadian bands are in the United States but it wasn't Finger 11 that performed Chris Benoit's entrance, it was Our Lady Peace and the song was called "Whatever." I saw them live with Nine Inch Nails and they actually performed it live, don't know if they still do after 2007 though.
    Last edited by CanadianCrippler; 05-27-2018 at 05:34 AM. Reason: grammar.

  25. #25
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    We weren't referring to entrance music. I was referring to WWE's use of the Finger 11 song on the Benoit DVD.

  26. #26
    What a wonderful surprise to hear the last WCW show last night and see you guys on the next morning with Steven bell...it's like watching the power hr on Saturday morning as a kid and finding out wait there's more...WCW Saturday night will be on at 6:05... enjoyed this series, gentleman...can't wait to see what's in store.

  27. #27
    People either love me, hate me, or they don't care CanadianCrippler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic View Post
    We weren't referring to entrance music. I was referring to WWE's use of the Finger 11 song on the Benoit DVD.
    My mad, that's my mistake. What is the song called that you're referring to? I can't find accurate search results

  28. #28

  29. #29
    The Brain
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    Mystic tackled the BK question better than I was really prepared to, and possibly unearthed (or just articulated) something I've been trying to say for a while. We are often down on supposedly true blue babyfaces like Hogan and Steamboat (yes, Steamboat!) for not being as pure and clean as they pretend to be, but on some level that is part of their appeal. They will do a bad thing to accomplish a bad thing, and yeah they'll probably conveniently and hypocritically forget about it later and the babyface commentators will excuse it, but they are willing to do the bad stuff when it comes down to it because the crowd wants it. They'd rather see Hogan rake eyes and choke than see him lose. Sting never really lost popularity, which is a testament to his charisma, but he so often comes off as a serious dork, especially when he actually has the title in hand.

    As for Simmons, well, like he said, Watts never actually came to work with the KKK hood on!

    Love CC's comments too. If we survived Vince Russo defiling WCW, we can survive anything a McMahon throws at us!

  30. #30
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    I still hold what Dr. Death (heel) was booked to do to Simmons (face) after their match as one of the most disgusting moments I saw in the series. This includes Russo era.

  31. #31
    The Brain
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    I can't see any excuse for that, I've never seen a babyface champion just utterly shamed by a heel challenger and not allowed to offer any response. I don't know why Watts just didn't make Williams champion if he loved him so damn much, unless it was to fend off the racism allegations that were already taking him down at the time.

    Makes me feel bad for Williams now that I think about it, a lot of his time in WCW came at the worst possible moments. He was pushed big by Watts but that whole era is bone dry, especially as it goes on, and then he came back in '99 when he probably could have offered something but he was paired with Oklahoma and therefore rendered literally unwatchable.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by mizfan View Post
    Mystic tackled the BK question better than I was really prepared to, and possibly unearthed (or just articulated) something I've been trying to say for a while. We are often down on supposedly true blue babyfaces like Hogan and Steamboat (yes, Steamboat!) for not being as pure and clean as they pretend to be, but on some level that is part of their appeal. They will do a bad thing to accomplish a bad thing, and yeah they'll probably conveniently and hypocritically forget about it later and the babyface commentators will excuse it, but they are willing to do the bad stuff when it comes down to it because the crowd wants it. They'd rather see Hogan rake eyes and choke than see him lose. Sting never really lost popularity, which is a testament to his charisma, but he so often comes off as a serious dork, especially when he actually has the title in hand.
    I've been thinking about articulating this point about Steamboat after reading Mystic's response and I just haven't found the time in the day to get myself on my desktop to actually respond. YES!!! It took me some time to get here, but I believe that my all time love for Ricky Steamboat is tied to his willingness to display viciousness as part and parcel of his intensity. Throughout the series Mystic does a phenomenal job, at times in a very tongue in cheek fashion, of challenging Steamboat's purity and overall "faceness." That line of questioning in conjunction with Mystic's amazing freestyle above led me to my current understanding of why faces like Ricky Steamboat have always spoken to me - they are willing to toe the line in order to prove their point. I fell for the Sting Crow gimmick until he got in the ring, but the derp surfer dude Sting was never appealing to me and I believe that the answer lies in Mystic's synopsis above. Faces that don't know how to weave in heelish identity at times cannot sustain momentum once they have reached the pinnacle.

    Fantastic stuff guys...I'm currently listening to Beach Blast '93 and so there is so much fantastic commentary between you two. The intense dislike of the commentators at this point is well taken - it's a shame that as long as Schiavone is in the booth that the commentary can't get much better (I know, I know...Heenan will help). And I have just about two and a half years of material to wait to see if it gets covered, but I'm hopeful you two cover the Pillman and Guerrero Match from Clash XXXII just to get to the infamous Heenan and Pillman confrontation. Interesting that Pillman living his gimmick a bit too much caused a pro like Heenan to break kayfabe in a serious way - seems like some twisted form of irony. The dissection of the commentary is really refreshing as commentary is something that is not discussed enough to my mind.

  33. #33
    The Brain
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    I think it's interesting to compare babyfaces who act heelish sometimes and admit it, and those who deny it. Guys like Steamboat and Hogan will get vicious, but then they'll turn around and say it was all because of prayer, clean living, and loving families. Which of those made you rake a man's eyes, choke him with your shirt, or beat him with his own umbrella? Obviously a lot of people don't mind the hypocrisy, but it can stick in your craw a bit if you're the kind of fan we are.

    My god, you gave me flashbacks to Ventura bullying Tony mercilessly. I actually felt bad for Tony at the time. Believe me, that won't happen often as the series goes on. We didn't cover that Clash, but looking back I wish we had. We were driven away from Clash coverage by the seemingly endless first year of Hogan and never went back. I'll have a lot to say about the Loose Cannon gimmick when it comes though.

  34. #34
    Listening to your WWF Legacy series now..been waiting for this! Couldn't wait to hear the Andre match. Bobby Heenan, Andre, and Stud: 3 souls who've gone onto a side we know little to nothing about. Fuckin' love Andre. What do we measure men by...If his ring presence is 30000 and his ring work is 5 to 10 and his personality is another 30000 is he as great as any fuckin' wrestler? Andre has a special part in my heart. All the sacrifices he made/ didn't have a choice to make made his life shorter but larger than any average life.


    Also, thanks for the elevation of Muhammad Ali. That fucker may have helped make wrestling!
    Last edited by Benjamin Button; 06-03-2018 at 05:19 AM.

  35. #35
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    Wrestling was made long before Wrestlemania, Vince, or Ali, but still I wouldn't fail to pay homage to one of the all time greats in his field. I do love that Ali was a wrestling fan, or at least willing to show up a number of times over the years. I assume he must have been a real fan, since half his appeal was cutting wrestling style promos on people.

    I'll be saying almost exclusively good things about Andre in the course of the series, don't worry. No matter how broken down he got, he still added value. Presence and personality, over 30000 indeed!!

  36. #36
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    Thanks, Ben. Andre was by far the dearest part of that episode for me. I could care less about Ali, but mizfan filled in that gap thankfully. I'm hoping we get some WWF convo. Been out of state at a conference four days, super busy year coming, but I REALLY want to stay deeply invested in this. I do believe there are some transcendent, myth-like times ahead.

  37. #37
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    When we get back into recording, I think it'll be really easy to re-invest. Had a bit of a weird gap in the watching schedule but it's going to be great as we dig in.

  38. #38
    The commentary about Hogan is spot on...Those mid 80s we're different than the early 90s even.. special time to watch.

    When I go back and watch, Bruno's ovation stands out to me.I think the gardens love for the man who sold it out more than anyone ever may be the reason that match got the time that it did....Still David was the shape of Bruno and all but never had a chance. Johny V also had a history...this was more about the managers than the wrestlers.

    If only a Tito-Valentine match were on this card, but that as much as anything shows you to be correct that Mania 1 was an advertisement. In production as awkward as it was it was ahead of the early Starrcades, but match wise, starrcade was much more swinging for the fences.


    Jimmy Hart is alright but never enjoyed him as much as the Grand Wizard Fred Blassie, Lou Albano, or Mr. Fuji or even Arnold Skaaland or JJ Dillon for that matter...kills me that he's rated like the 2nd greatest manager ever nowdays
    Last edited by Benjamin Button; 06-03-2018 at 05:08 PM.

  39. #39
    The Brain
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    I can't remember if I mentioned it on the show, but there's a spectacular Orndorff/Heenan vs. The Sammartinos feud around this time. That, too, was more about the manager against Bruno. It was a formula that worked well for them, I wish we had a better chance to review Bruno's late work because a lot of it still kicks ass.

    Great point about Mania I being ahead of Starrcade in production, that's a bigger factor that people let on I think. They also have marketing down about 10000 times better. And Tito/Valentine could have been the first great 'Mania match, but alas.

    I feel like I need to see Jimmy Hart in Memphis before I really judge him. I agree that his WWF stuff is middling at best. I like some things he does, but it's rarely better than his contemporaries. His alliance with Hogan should also count against him. At least I rarely see him argued ahead of Heenan and Cornette when it comes to GOAT managers.

  40. #40
    The other thing was Barry and Mike...love those guys...they were tag champions together in Florida before WWF...and look they made Bray Wyatt together...
    Last edited by Benjamin Button; 06-03-2018 at 08:32 PM.

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