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  1. #41
    Member #25 SirSam's Avatar
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    Hey, great first show. I really enjoyed how you so clearly called out that wrestling the WWE way was just a totally different genre to wrestling the NWA/WCW way. The fact they didn't even have a WWF championship match on the card but a celebrity match as the main event says SO DAMN MUCH and you guys really clearly pointed that out.

    It is interesting that the original Mania was just an advert for their house shows. How different it is today. When do you think it switched over?

  2. #42
    People either love me, hate me, or they don't care CanadianCrippler's Avatar
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    First off congratulations on debuting the new Legacy Series you guys, I gave WrestleMania 1 a listen to twice before I decided to comment that way I don't misinterprete anything. I respect that you both called out anyone who thinks wrestling before the attitude era was irrelevant, as any genuine fan of the sport can find a relic of the past to immense themselves into if those fans had open mindedness as a motor skill. I think that negativity stems from fans of my generation nowadays as we've grown up in the evolutionary era of hybrid pro wrestling. If you aren't a story driven fan then the past can be easily lost in translation just from the pacing and overuse of submissions / rest holds. Obviously for a modern man, the golden age is an aquired taste but nothing to dismiss as boring. Why I appreciate vintage pro wrestling is because stylistically it seems to portray more realness, not in terms of shoot fighting but wrestling before flips would be the prime example definition of "pro wrestling" in my opinion.

    Also respect that you pulled no punches butrefrained from just calling the show "lame."
    Final note is just more of a creative suggestion, don't take it as a criticism. I was wondering if you guys would be willing to format the show akin to Global Revolution when doing coverage of the in between time's of PPV? Like a compilation review of what happens leading up to your next episode? Mizfan mentioned in the episode, there can't be proper context without acknowledgements to the house shows, Main Events and Superstars (Wrestling Challenge?). Only throwing it out there if you guys find a lot of these old matches don't redeem entertainment.

  3. #43
    The Brain
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    Ah, Windham and Rotundo. We'll see precious little of them together but it was nice to catch them once at least.

    I want to say the switch from being an advertisement to being THE show is most obvious at Wrestlemania III, but I also think there's probably a spectrum and I want to try to unearth the finer points of that transition.

    I think analyzing the older style as an acquired taste for those who didn't grow up with it as fair. To dismiss older stuff as merely "lame" would be a gross mischaracterization, and not one that I think we are likely to make! Unfortunately I wouldn't count on us being able to fill in all the details between shows in the early days of TLS. We'll do what we can and I have a leg up because of the Heenan series, but we're both busy humans so there will likely be some stuff we will only mention in passing or speculate on. Plus, in '85 we're in a time when Superstars and Wrestling Challenge don't even exist yet! We're in the wild days for sure, but starting with '86 we'll be covering all of SNME as well so that will fill in a lot of gaps. Hopefully it'll enhance the experience!

    Thanks to all who listen to the first WWF episode. The Wrestling Classic is next, and then Funk vs. Hogan after that!

  4. #44
    Cero Miedo Mystic's Avatar
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    SirSam - One thing that I find curious is that Mr. Sports Entertainment, Mr. Mock and Correct Ted Turner when he tells you that he's in the rasslin' business, Vince McMahon, had the word wrestle or wrestling in the first 3 PPVs WWF put on. The enactment of sports entertain, implicitly and explicity, was a slow and evolving thing. It will be interesting to chart that as well. I think it was almost always there implicitly, but they were fighting a lot of pressure to sort of expose the business, change it's name, etc. Though that would come with time.

    CC - I will also be defending the AA era at times, particularly and sometimes exclusively Steve Austin. I think the WWF Narrative pushed Austin downward as soon as it could (meaning: as soon as they had escaped WCW). Now many are on board with Austin wasn't this or that or let's take cheap shots at his time and era. I lived through it. I know a lot of the AA was shit. I also know Austin, in great part, saved the WWE. It's going to be a very interesting journey.

    Eras I'm looking forward to:

    Savage era of WM IV-V
    WWF 1991-1992
    WWF 1996-1997

    Many more, but those are just a few.

  5. #45
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    I'm really looking forward to dissecting the Attitude Era as well, because it's lumped together into one block but it's so diverse in it's elements. Is it the rebellious breakout nature of '97? The year of Austin/McMahon in '98? Is it Russo running wild and getting kicked to the curb, and the rise of new stars in '99? Is it co-opting the genuine wrestling talent of WCW and the backstage storyboards of Chris Kreski in '00? I feel like there are so many eras with the Attitude Era, because things changed so fast at that time, sometimes because they needed to, sometimes because changing everything as fast as possible became the name of the game. There's going to be so much to unearth, I think.

  6. #46
    Cero Miedo Mystic's Avatar
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    Yup. First rule of unearthing: take nothing as a "block of everything."

    Or, in 97 speak:

    lift that shovel high above your head, son, and bring that son of a bitch down on that block and break it into a million pieces. And I don't really give a damn what anyone has to say about that!

  7. #47
    People either love me, hate me, or they don't care CanadianCrippler's Avatar
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    I'm not familiar the chronological history of WWF so how does the short term future of your show work? Is Saturday Night's Main Event a monthly program? Just curious if you're essentially doing 12-13 episodes a year by time Survivor Series exists.

    I was not aware that Terry Funk competed against Hulk Hogan, gonna try to find that now.
    And Mystic that was great terminology. Very well said sir.
    Last edited by CanadianCrippler; 06-06-2018 at 06:44 AM.

  8. #48
    The Brain
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    SNME is somewhat sporadic, less than once a month but there are a decent number scattered through the early years. Stay tuned and you'll be able to follow along!

  9. #49
    Cero Miedo Mystic's Avatar
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    We are covering as much WWF as we can while keeping it doable.

    We just did The Wrestling Classic, which is out now. I didn't even know what one existed until this series. We're doing the Big Event. We're every SNME in the history of WWF, during the timeframe of the 15-20 years we're covering. We will sometimes hit matches or promos from RAW or other shows, as we did in WCW. (Already I know I want to do the Luger-Yoko press conference from RAW; I also want to do the Austin stuff from the night the belt is held up and the red carpet is in the ring and Kane and stuff.) I will be especially interested in doing more in late 91-92, when there's This Tuesday Night in Texas and such, and also in late 96-97, when Austin is on the rise.

    We take requests. We might say no or we might pick out a piece, but we go where we feel like we need to go to do as much justice as we can with the time we have to the legacies we're covering.

  10. #50
    You guys do an amazing job...the amount of history you put into each person at wrestle mania was fantastic...less is more...can't wait to get caught up...who knew doink was a 2nd generation wrestler?!...lol wonder what his dad thought about that

    Don't fix the unbreakable...loved your Wrestle mania 1 coverage
    Last edited by Benjamin Button; 06-13-2018 at 04:11 AM.

  11. #51
    The Brain
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    Man, that's a question I hadn't even considered. Looking up Tony Borne I found that he was a challenger for the NWA and AWA titles during his career, and influenced other Portland guys like Piper, Martel, and Buddy Rose, and that after wrestling he was a successful real estate agent, but I do not know how he felt about his son's unusual career. Hopefully proud as hell, not everyone gets a son who is a great lumberjack and an even better evil clown.

  12. #52
    People either love me, hate me, or they don't care CanadianCrippler's Avatar
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    I listened to your second show while I was making rearrangements to my apartment and what I found particularly interesting was an old PWI Almanac from 2006. As I flipped through the pages the second half was every major PPV results from every big enough wrestling promotion to host any ppv in chronological order until press time and those fuckers left out Collison in Korea, Millennium Finale, The Wrestling Challenge, every SNME, but scripted every Goddamn ECW supercard that ever happened. Thank You for doing something that publications can't seem to do correctly. That opening 'promo' by mystic was very thought provoking and the episode overall was fascinating despite being lacklucker for the mere fact I probably won't see this so from what you've both said, respectively it just sounds like a decent house show with some storyline implications.

    Personally I'm looking forward to the debut of Hart Foundation and the Rockers. I've always read and heard remarkable things about both teams but other than a royal rumble tag match between rockers and orient express (which surpassed my expectations remarkably) and attitude era Hart Foundation; I have never seen either team compete full time so I'm interested to find out when those teams hit the scene and began to wrestle revered classics.
    Last edited by CanadianCrippler; 06-14-2018 at 12:54 AM.

  13. #53
    People either love me, hate me, or they don't care CanadianCrippler's Avatar
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    I listened to your second show while I was making rearrangements to my apartment and what I found particularly interesting was an old PWI Almanac from 2006. As I flipped through the pages the second half was every major PPV results from every big enough wrestling promotion to host any ppv in chronological order until press time and those fuckers left out Collison in Korea, Millennium Finale, The Wrestling Challenge, every SNME, but scripted every Goddamn ECW supercard that ever happened and even the Super 0-8 Tournament.

    Thank You for doing something that publications can't seem to do correctly. That opening 'promo' by mystic was very thought provoking and the episode overall was fascinating despite being lacklucker for the mere fact I probably won't see this so from what you've both said, respectively it just sounds like a decent house show with some storyline implications.

    Personally I'm looking forward to the debut of Hart Foundation and the Rockers. I've always read and heard remarkable things about both teams but other than a royal rumble tag match between rockers and orient express (which surpassed my expectations remarkably) I have never seen either team compete full time so I'm interested to find out when those teams hit the scene and began to wrestle revered classics.

  14. #54
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    Do you not have access to WWE Network, Crippler? The Wrestling Classic and all the SNMEs are on there.

    Mystic, Mizzie, as you guys know, I fell far behind on your series. I'm now back to listening to 1995. Your coverage of WW3 was spot on. When I was younger, I thought it was cool; as a mature fan, I'm like, "I can't even see what's happening!" The next night on Nitro (yes, I'm watching those, too. So much better than today's shows.) they had a rematch of the Joshi tag match that was also excellent, so you may want to give that a watch. The show that Pittman came down from the ceiling made me in cringe, due to what would happen to Owen less than 3 years later; I was actually surprised neither of you mentioned that.

  15. #55
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    I'm in the minority on this, but I honestly find the original Hart Foundation pretty overrated. I mentioned this on twitter, and I will definitely re-evaluate as we go, but just based on my Heenan watching, from '84 to '91 my top WWF teams would be:

    10. Young Stallions
    9. Can-Am Connection
    8. Hart Foundation
    7. British Bulldogs
    6. Rockers
    5. Islanders
    4. LOD
    3. Demolition
    2. Strike Force
    1. Brain Busters

    Xan, love that you're still going through the WCW stuff. All the drop from the ceiling stuff is weird... I tend to give it a pass pre-Owen because honestly, if done safely there's no reason not to do it, though wasting it on a guy like Pittman is pretty ridiculous. I'm pretty sure I'll call it out anytime after Owen passes though, because it's at the very least in very bad taste. I know for sure I called out WCW for doing a major falling spot in the same arena Owen passed in late in the series.

  16. #56
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    God I hate Hogan's self-righteous bullshit in 1995.

  17. #57
    Cero Miedo Mystic's Avatar
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    Haha, which time this time?

  18. #58
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    Well, the stuff about how he should still be champion or have won WW3 and how Luger can't be trusted, but he's Sting's friend, and he trusts Sting, but not when it comes to Luger.

  19. #59
    Cero Miedo Mystic's Avatar
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    Insufferable character.

    He trusts Sting's opinion, unless it contradicts his. He loves Savage, unless Savage has his belt. He doesn't trust Luger, even though his first words to Luger, before Luger did anything, was that Luger had no business in his backyard.

    One word trumps all in each scenario: his.

  20. #60
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    And if it already wasn't clear, he always uses royal speak.

  21. #61
    People either love me, hate me, or they don't care CanadianCrippler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XanMan View Post
    Do you not have access to WWE Network, Crippler? The Wrestling Classic and all the SNMEs are on there.
    I had it back in 2014 around the time Harper beat Ziggler for the IC title and Rusev defeated Sheamus for the U.S. Title but, I've gone cable free for the past four year's so that's what lead to LOP to keep up to date. I've only just recently gotten wifi for the first time. In Ontario, WWE Network is 2 different channels on Rogers digital cable which you have to buy 2 packages just to get. 1 channel is the live stream and the other is the archives. Real scam. I love pro wrestling but I do the nefarious means whenever I feel like watching something.

  22. #62
    Cero Miedo Mystic's Avatar
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    If anyone wants to know how much I love TLS, it's in having WWE Network. Under no other circumstances would they get a dollar of support.

  23. #63
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    I didn't realize that was still the case in Canada. Ridiculous.

  24. #64
    Cero Miedo Mystic's Avatar
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    A little bird told me a new WWF: TLS was up. Turns out Flair isn't the only world champ Funk was facing in the 1980s. https://lordsofpain.net/radio/legacy...ulk-hogan.html

  25. #65
    Just listened to the 3rd episode this morning and me thinks your SNM will be some of your best episodes. Loved your coverage on Funk/Hogan but also all the other ongoings like the waterslide contest that we don't hear about anymore. This was indeed a special time in WWF...A time where wrestling's long term story telling met such a great pool of talent.

    Started listening to episode 2. Liked your coverage on Randy Savage in episode 2 so far. He was a unique character. He took a lot of inspiration from Gorgeous George but put so many elements of himself in there to push it in that "Macho" direction. As a human I think he's misunderstood. He came from his father's outlaw promotion and trusted so few people. When he had a woman that was his whole world and he wanted to keep everything locked in there and wanted nobody to get in..thing about celebrities, they're easy to judge but you take flaws like that and then add the pressure and abnormal lifestyle you probably get some weird people.

  26. #66
    Cero Miedo Mystic's Avatar
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    With the waterslide, it's interesting what we enjoy/don't enjoy, would ask to be part of an ideal product/not ask, and what we look back on fondly. For some reason, I have this great felt sense (that may or may not be satisfied when we get there) of WWF giving away a house at the first IYH. Even the concept of them being in my house/my being in theirs, the house that the wrestlers came out of, etc. There is a fondness attributed to how much they can help me escape my reality and take me to one that is both grounded in what I know of the world and somehow transcendent of it.

    I like the Savage analysis. Something amazing about coming out of GG but moving to a "Macho" place/version.

  27. #67
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    Love the Savage talk. Definitely see some Gorgeous George. Do you also see some Billy Graham, Benny? I get that vibe but you know that era better than I do. Obviously not as strong as Hogan, but there's an influence there I think.

    Savage the human, well, it's tough to say. Definitely a weird guy, definitely formed by his family and early experiences. Look at how many times he tried to get his father and brother honored, despite their relatively low contributions to wrestling (and I say that as a big Lanny Poffo fan). He was very stuck on the people close to him, and that's something I can relate to. I do think it lead him to make bad personal choices and treat people the wrong way at times, but then again I wasn't there so it's hard to say for sure. I do think it's unfortunate to see the way the lifestyle eventually effected Liz, but Savage was only one piece of that puzzle.

    I do find some humor in the fact that we've been called "traditionalists" in the past, yet we always seem to gravitate towards the wacky sets and goofy vignettes, assuming they serve some purpose and are actually fun.

  28. #68
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    I continue to play catch up on the WCW Legacy Series, still working through 1996 and so very close to Bash at the Beach. I watched that show live with a few friends and saw the turn coming - his facial expression was very telling. I'm curious to see what you guys have to say about the famed Heenan "but which side is he on" line, guess I will have my curiosity sated here in the next few days.

    I am up to date on the WWF series (through three episodes) and you guys continue to impress the hell out of me. Mystic, your continued narrative about Steamboat is fantastic and I am appreciating Steamboat in a new light, even as Steamboat mark (but not a lover of all things babyface). Interestingly through the first three episodes of the WWF series I have identified more tiebacks to the modern product through your continued respective dialogues. Not sure if that will continue, but to a degree I would expect there to be more asides talking about modern superstars and the modern product considering we are dealing with the same (and I use that term very loosely) company.

  29. #69
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    I think it'll inevitably come up more because the mind at the top, Vince, is the same mind we still have around today, so it's much easier to compare even though the product is so different.

  30. #70
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    Really loved the latest show. Quick, breezy, and fun, just like the SNME you covered. The Main Event is, indeed, on the Network. SNME from February 5, 1988.

  31. #71
    Cero Miedo Mystic's Avatar
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    We recorded SNME from May 1986 today, with an added bonus of a match from Philly between Hogan and Adonis. It was a good episode, I think. WrestleMania 2 episode of WWF: TLS was our weakest, I think.

  32. #72
    https://youtu.be/mdcnErW9hpM

    Adrian Adonis as the Southwest World Champion...it was a promotion briefly on the USA network before WWE...He was ready to take on the world.

  33. #73
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    I'm looking forward to the WM 2 shows, Mizzie. It's a good show; not great, but good and I'm sure your coverage of it was good, as well.

  34. #74
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    Ben - looking forward to watching that. I'm currently at work where the boss folk walk right into my cubicle and are standing over my shoulder watching my screen before I know they're there. I do know that I liked Adrian better at the beginning of TLS (before most of the gimmick from that idiot Vince McMahon was burdened upon him). I've also seen pictures of earlier Franke, so I think I will prefer that.

    Xan - I do think the WM 2 episode we did was a bit shabby, but maybe there will be pieces from it. One never knows, and I hate to predict for anyone else.

  35. #75
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    I thought it was WM 2 that was a bit shabby to be frank, I'm not sure what more we could have done with it!

    Nice Adonis clip, Benny, I've really loved covering the guy again.

  36. #76
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    You should bottle and sell that disposition.

  37. #77
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    Watched Starrcade '95 over the weekend and then listened to TLS about it. Show is still great, but not as great as I remember it being when first viewed. Still a lot of fun; I think it's just the view of someone who has seen so much great wrestling since and has become spoiled. The stuff in the main event with the referee fighting off Jimmy Hart and then Brian Pillman and letting the match continue really bugged me, but I know it didn't in college.

  38. #78
    The Brain
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    I remember well talking about the relief of having a Hogan free show in that dark time! Though they had sort of already turned the corner by then, but there was some bad Hogan stuff to still get through, so the break was welcome. I wish they had done more with the whole Heenan/New Japan thing but they never did know what to do with the Brain. Love Benoit/Liger, Eddie/Otani, and the Luger/Flair/Sting match from that show. The show was a bit of a mess with so many guys wrestling more than once but it was still actually pretty fun.

  39. #79
    Cero Miedo Mystic's Avatar
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    Great thread, Xan.

    I LOVE Starrcade '95, though I think the wrong man won the triangle match. Flair didn't need the win, and it was past time to elevate Sting or Luger.

    I can never think that what happened in 1995 really happened, no matter how often I talk or text about it.

    1.) Having Hulk Hogan, Randy Savage, Sting, and Lex Luger, as WCW had beginning in September 1995, is a gift unlike almost any a promotion could have.
    2.) I believe you could easily book 6 months to a year and a half of high quality, top notch, world title scene solely around those four (with a couple others weaving in and out).
    3.) Imagine how dejected we became (as WCW guys) to see the angle with those 4 spent in a week to a month, so that we could hire a fake Andre son in order to replicate the exact angle that happened in WWF 80s.
    4.) Imagine how disgusted I was to see Luger turn heel at HH, not for the title shot he was owed, but to be a midcarder in a monster stable.
    5.) Imagine how done we were to see that goddamn WWF 80s angle play out at WW3.
    6.) Imagine the unbelievable elation to see that somehow out of that abomination of an angle, Hogan wasn't going to be a STARRCADE!
    7.) Imagine the excitement (for WCW guys) to see a triangle match that was Flair, Sting, and Luger.

    I will say that I think, if Luger had won the triangle match and beat Savage, you could have had so much fun with that. Luger has Savage's number at that point and that has to be unbearable for a guy like Savage. (It is Savage, not Hogan, who, on instinct, didn't like or trust Luger.) Imagine weeks of world champion Luger smugly rubbing it in to Savage that he was just better than Savage. Sting walks in when Savage is about to attack Luger. "I don't know, Stinger. I was just telling him that, having beaten him so many times, I see a flaw in his game and I'd like to train with him, help him along. He just went off, Stinger."

    And, if Sting won the triangle match, the Sting-Savage match could've been explosive. Savage wanted Luger out. Sting wanted Luger in. Neither really got what they wanted. (Hogan ruled Luger in but as someone who couldn't be trusted.) There was a real tension working with Sting-Savage, and they have good energies to make something happen.

    Finally, I think I have discovered yet another way to show that Luger should have been the #1 WCW guy going into the 90s, with Sting as secondary. We all know who is 1 and 2 between Hogan and Savage. (Put it this way: there was never a fan sign that read "Hogan is Savage's bitch".) Hogan was 1; Savage was 2.

    Well, here we go.

    Which WCW guy matches better with Hogan and who matches better with Savage?

    I liked the Luger-Savage feud, but I always found their matches lackluster, mediocre, or underwhelming.

    And speaking of UNDERWHELMING: Sting vs. Hogan.

    You know what WASN'T underwhelming? Luger vs. Hogan 1997. That was top notch, top of the world, compelling.

    So Luger, who should have been the #1 guy in WCW, just happens to match perfectly with the WWF's #1 guy, and Sting, who should have been the secondary/sidekick, just happens to match damn well with Savage.

    One more reason WCW got it wrong from day 1.

  40. #80
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    1994-1995 was a weird time for me as a wrestling fan. I was a WWE guy for years, but then being able to watch WCW several times a week on TBS (and enjoying the past PPV's I had been able to rent on videotape) I really got into WCW. The Dangerous Alliance thrilled me, and, of course, as I said years ago when you covered it, so did the return of Steamboat as Dustin's partner. The best of three falls Saturday Night's were awesome! Then...Hulk Hogan came and he...brought Duggan with him. It wasn't bad enough he had to make Flair look like an absolute chump (who was even far weaker than any of Hogan's WWF opponents,) he also had to have his other cronies dominate the other divisions, and, of course, have Beefcake as his top challenger; most despicable to me was the treatment of Austin at the hands of Duggan. When that happened, I stopped watching altogether for 6 months or so. I may not even have tuned in until the first Nitro; I don't remember for sure; and I know I didn't watch World War 3 or Halloween Havoc. But I did follow Nitro (switching channels with RAW) and I really enjoyed Starrcade. Looking back, I agree on the main event, but at the time I loved that Flair won and how he did it, because I was really into the Horsemen way back when and I liked that he was back on top of the company after being embarrassed by Hogan. If I had been running things, Austin would have been champion at that point, anyway, instead of fired, but that's beside the point, I guess.

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