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Thread: Ring of Honor

  1. #41
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    I think you're right in that Ring of Honor has never struggled with talent, but more with their identity as a promotion in recent years. They've had such a reliance on their relationship with New Japan, and focused so much time on Bullet Club/The Elite that it's really difficult to say who they are as a company. Much of the time it just feels like talented guys putting on matches with little regard to what Ring of Honor is/was.

  2. #42
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    They have been telling good stories outside of the Elite. Briscoes, SCU, Bully/Flip, Taven's rise; Lethal's rise back to the top, Castle's embattled championship run. I'm not saying the Elite weren't big draws, but the company will still be excellent without them just like they were without Joe, Punk, Danielson, Black, Steen, etc. Yeah, it's a big clump of talent to use at once, but they are reloading. I have no idea who Mark Haskins is.

  3. #43
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    He's from our side of the pond and has been a bit of a player with people like Progress. I think it's probably fair to say that when he's been over in the US he's mostly been turning out for PWG?

    "The worst moron is the one too stupid to realise they're a moron."

  4. #44
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    I guess by default you could say Haskins is a PWG guy, but they didn't book him once this year so it's not really a strong connection. He was actually on the ROH UK tour in August, tho not sure how much of that was broadcast.

    To Xan's point, I guess you're right that ROH has done some story stuff without NJPW/BC in the past couple years, but for better or worse it's been pretty overshadowed. I think ROH will be ok regardless but some of the talent they're signing has been THRIVING and I'd hate to see their momentum stall out if ROH isn't ready with something. Can't say I'm overly taken with the Villain Enterprises thing for PCO and Brody King, love both guys but I don't know if it's the right fit for them. Time will tell, I guess!

  5. #45
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    Interested to hear how ROH is doing with such a big talent switch up happening recently, especially with MSG coming up. Can't say I've heard much yet, so it'll be interesting to see what they put together. Gotta wonder what the crowd reaction will considering, many must have booked with the idea that they'd be seeing guys like Kenny Omega.

    Speaking of, watched this older match recently...

    Bryan Danielson vs. Tyler Black vs. Kenny Omega 11/8/2008 ROH Bound By Hate


    Watched this one at the suggestion of good ol’ Gooner. Pretty interesting to look back a decade and see the top guys of Raw, Smackdown, and New Japan (well, until recently) facing off! At this point in their careers I’d say it’s very obvious Danielson is holding the hands of the other two to a certain extent, both are supremely athletic but it’s definitely Bryan holding the match together into something cohesive. He does a stupendous job of doing just that, and there are some awesome spots worked in as well. A lionsault onto a bridging pinfall escape is the moment that stood out to me as being especially awesome. Overall this was a great match for showing off the potential of all involved, and now a very interesting curiousity as well due to where the careers of all three men have gone.

  6. #46
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    Less than two minutes in and the double cattle mutilation. I have a feeling this is gonna be a fun match.

    Wow... that Roaring Elbow from AmDrag to Omega followed by the mma elbows into Cattle Mutilation. The last 2:30ish of that match was freaking awesome. Thanks for sharing.
    Last edited by meandi; 02-09-2019 at 09:20 PM.

  7. #47
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    My pleasure, glad you liked it!

  8. #48
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    Just read something on the main page about Jay Lethal breaking a record as the champ. Went to Wiki for some quick research, and all I can gather is it’s because he’s been champ 670+ combined days. That beats Samoa Joe’s 645 day record as champ. Only thing... Joe only had one reign vs Lethal’s two reigns. I hate when company’s “bend” statistics, so to speak.

  9. #49
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    Also a pretty stark contrast between how hot Joe was at that time and how... not hot Lethal is. I like Lethal but it feels like he's only champion because they don't have any ideas and they know he probably won't jump ship at this point.

  10. #50
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    I've always loved Lethal. From when he was no one in TNA's X- Division up until he was throwing shoes and whooing at Flair. I just don't like companies bending the stats and making it sound like he's something more than he's not.

    IE... WWE could've praised Punk even more-so than his 436 or however many day reign it was by adding in his big gold belt titles and when he first won the WWE title from Cena at MITB '11. But the 'E focused solely on the second WWE title reign and built up that 436 day reign as something spectacular instead of adding in his other reigns.

  11. #51
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    WWE apparently has zero interest in Lethal. Delirous is a terrible booker that loves to push his most loyal guys even if they're not good like Matt Taven. Instead of stars who could and should have been on top of the promotion. Lethal is good but Marty and others have been pushed aside for him and others like him and its going to cost ROH in the end. Especially when they crown Taven at MSG in a triple threat cause Marty is leaving the company.

  12. #52
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    Yeah, I wouldn't go so far as to say Taven's bad but the idea of him as ROH champion is entirely uninteresting.

  13. #53
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    Its not that Taven is really bad, its the idea he should be world champion/leader of a company. The only way it can work is if you have a strong face people want to see kill Taven and they don't really have that.

  14. #54
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    For sure, and the idea of him wrestling Lethal for an hour is... yeesh. It's a no thank you from me.

  15. #55
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    if you like car crash wrestling, The Briscoes vs. PCO and Brody King was really fun. Not usually my type of match but they played to all four men's strength and it was done well.

    Also Cobb vs Taylor was a really good hoss battle.

  16. #56
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    Big fan of PCO, the fact that he ended up main eventing an ROH anniversary show is both absurd and wonderful.

  17. #57
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    So, RoH have three teams in the upcoming Crockett Cup this weekend.

    "The worst moron is the one too stupid to realise they're a moron."

  18. #58
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    Pulling for PCO and Brody King to win the whole thing!

    Though they likely won't.

  19. #59
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    I haven't been following Ring of Honor much, but it looks like they're massively struggling right now. Today's Best In The World show looks like it sold really badly.

  20. #60
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    And they had a chance to put the title on Jeff Cobb and didn't go for it. I honestly don't know what they see in Taven, he's not awful but even with a super thin roster it seems like there are guys who blow him out of the water.

  21. #61
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    When I saw the pictures of that attendance the first words that popped into my head were 'circling the drain'.

    Now that's probably an overreaction to be honest, but even so, it's clearly not good when that's the instinctive response.

    "The worst moron is the one too stupid to realise they're a moron."

  22. #62
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    I thought that ROH was mostly suffering from The Elite leaving, but from what I've read, the main problem seems to be that booking is not that great. The general consensus is that no one likes Matt Taven as the champ, and having him beat Jeff Cobb lose clean in a short championship match made people even more upset. There were also people scratching their heads at some of the outcomes of the matches with guys like Bandido and Dragon Lee taking losses. Out of the whole show, the only thing that looked interesting to me was Flip Gordon's heel turn and joining Villain Enterprises.

  23. #63
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    ROH is a perfectly serviceable promotion. But there's very little that stands out about it in 2019. With so many promotions putting out the quality of matches we saw in ROH at its peak (2008 in my opinion), they either need to find something fresh, or accept their place below WWE and AEW, while sort of tied with Impact.

    As for Taven, I'm a fan. He's a solid heel.

  24. #64
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    So it seems Alex Shelley has returned and is immediately in the title picture.

    I am amazed that Shelley is only 36. Feels like I've been watching him almost my whole wrestling fandom!

  25. #65
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    A little surprised he came back, as it felt like he was ready to leave it behind, but hard to stop that itch I guess. I hope the run goes really well for him, he's got so much to offer.

  26. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by PEN15v2 View Post
    As for Taven, I'm a fan. He's a solid heel.

    This is underselling it; Matt Taven is a great heel. Hell I'd argue he's a great performer. I've seen Taven work several CMLL tours and every time he's gone there he's produced several memorable matches and some legitimately good character work. If anything he's another victim of Ring of Honor's terrible creative team, and it's funny how when everyone bring up ROH's creative woes they never attribute that to Taven's issues. Everything else is ROH's fault but Taven; well he's just immune to that. The reality is that ROH has kept him in that lame Kingdom stable for years now and have surrounded him with guys like TK O'Ryan and Vinny Marseglia, two of the most boring workers in the history of time. Away from them and the Kingdom concept in CMLL Taven has been a legit star. With them he's the leader of a stable that should've ended several years ago surrounded by below average talent. In a different way he's very much been hurt by the same thing Roman Reigns has been and just like Reigns it isn't really Taven's fault. He's a really good performer being backed by a creative team that needed to be overhauled three years ago.


  27. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
    So it seems Alex Shelley has returned and is immediately in the title picture.

    I am amazed that Shelley is only 36. Feels like I've been watching him almost my whole wrestling fandom!
    I work on the Friday that match takes place, with my in-laws in town ,and tickets to NXT Takeover the next night. If I feel I can push my soon to be fiance to go to ANOTHER wrestling show in Toronto, I'll be doing it for seeing Alex Shelley.

  28. #68
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    I know it's the one promotion that doesn't seem to be making any waves or headlines, but I'm really enjoying ROH as a WWE alternative.

    Joe Hendry teaming with Dalton Castle? I love it
    Tension between Jay Lethal and Jonathan Gresham? I love it
    Silas Young slowly turning face with Josh Woods leading the way? I love it.
    Good feud and wrestling between Villain Enterprises and Lifeblood.
    I'm a fan of Matt Taven.
    Shane Taylor is the type of guy who wouldn't work all that well in WWE, but stands out greatly in ROH, and is making it work with solid in ring performances.

    There's some terrible stuff in ROH (WOH is passable at best), but their main shows have been great TV.
    Sadly, their new TV style has been entirely skippable.

  29. #69
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    I do think there is some good talent in ROH, and even some good ideas. They don't seem to lend themselves very well to new fans though. Sounds like they may be losing Shane Taylor soon as well, which is a shame.

  30. #70
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    Bit of a situation I'm hearing about RoH and Kelly Klein, though people who follow the company more closely will probably know more.

    "The worst moron is the one too stupid to realise they're a moron."

  31. #71
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    I've only caught the headlines on it, but it seems like she has been fired while dealing with post-concussion syndrome. I think it may be to do with her giving Joey Mercury an email or something in all of that news the other week?

    The RoH perspective seems to be that they haven't fired here, but have told her they are not renewing her contract.

  32. #72
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    Despite ROH delivering better PPV or big event shows than Impact, MLW, and AEW (in my opinion), it's the promotion in most trouble right now. Buzz is low and mostly terrible, and this isn't going to help at all.

  33. #73

  34. #74
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    Yeah, everything coming out of this situation seems to reflect terribly on ROH's current management. Beyond the Kelly Klein thing, which apparently included them asking her to travel to Africa and wrestle while she had a concussion and them refusing to bump her up to a salary of $24,000 despite being champion (which is not even a living wage, for those outside the US), even before this Joey Mercury has been revealing a lot of issues which seem to be backed up by evidence.

    One that stuck out in particular is calling out ROH for a lack of security or medical personnel, including Alex Shelly having to use his medical training to deal with injuries despite only being hired as a wrestler.

  35. #75
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    Just to clarify mizfan, Kelly herself has said ROH did not force her to work that show in Africa and she didn't end up working it. Now of course they still had no idea she had a concussion prior to that and would've had her work it if it hadn't been caught by herself and Mercury but hey...they didn't force her to work the show. Small victory.

    This is a disaster. An absolute disaster. I know Sean Ross Sapp has said there are ROH talent there that are happy and well paid but if it were me, I'd never be able to trust this promotion ever again as long as Joe Koff and Greg Gilleland (the CEO and GM of ROH respectively) are still in positions of power. If I were a fan I don't know how I could ever trust this promotion again with those two in power. Unless ROH/Sinclair/whoever gets rid of them immediately I think it's just going to get worse for ROH. And it was already bad to begin with given how much attendance and buzz has slumped this year. I don't think this is the end of ROH because Sinclair has so much money but if not for that this feels like it could potentially be a company killer. And it's by their own misconduct.

    I will say this as well though; Kelly Klein is very clearly making a stand here because she wants the place to improve. To me, Joey Mercury is making a stand because he wants to get back at Koff and Gilleland and doesn't seem like he'd mind if ROH went down. And to me...that's kind of low. ROH should absolutely be roasted for this and Koff and Gilleland need to be fired immediately. But it almost feels like Mercury is taking glee in some of this viatrol he's aiming at them and at the end of the day this is still a company with a bunch of talent who has nothing to do with Koff and Gilleland being terrible bosses. Klein's approach to me just seems a lot better to me than Mercury's.


  36. #76
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    I'm honestly just glad Joey decided to speak up at all. We can nitpick his method but if he hadn't, most likely none of this stuff would have come out. I'd like to see more people speak up about stuff like this in wrestling.

  37. #77
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    Here's another Pen praise for ROH, while the rest of the online fans wonder if I've gone nuts.

    I really enjoyed Final Battle. I haven't finished Into the Fire yet, but I prefer ROH's event over TLC for sure. I just wish they had an actual TV program to keep up. These weekly recaps shows with matches aired from 3-4 weeks prior is killing excitement. I haven't read the Fallout spoilers, but I hope these air on their TV program as fresh matches.

    But, they have some work ahead of them to get me to care about PCO as World Champ. He's super exciting, but a bit of a one trick pony in the one promotion where you can't get away with it. And Rush is still the guy I think any promotion would want to sink their hooks into and let run wild. Unless it's his limitations on the mic holding him back, I really can't see how PCO creates a better main event draw than Rush.

  38. #78
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    What do people think of Marty Scurll not only re-signing with RoH, but gaining booker duties as well? Will his input be enough to steer the company back into decent shape?

    Interestingly enough, after the announcement of Marty's signing, Ring of Honor announced that Jay White would be a part of Supercard of Honor. Not sure if Marty had anything to do with that, but it's an interesting development after how the relationship between NJPW and RoH seemed to have crumbled.

  39. #79
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    I can't say whether Marty has the mind for this job or not, but there's no denying that ROH was struggling, so I'll always vote that taking a chance is worth the risk. We'll see how this goes with NJPW and NWA involvement. It's certainly an interesting development.

    That said, I still haven't hated ROH like so many others. Like all wrestling shows, some matches aren't as good or not my style, so I really feel it's the storytelling and characters that make the difference between promotions and shows. There's a lot I enjoy from ROH, but it's all low key midcard stuff or entertaining characters who I'm just waiting to have direction: the team of Josh Woods and Silas Young, the team of Dalton Castle and Joe Hendry, fresh talented champs in Gresham and Lethal, the Shane Taylor promotions angle, VINCENT's stable, Maria Manic/Bully Ray...etc. All interesting angles or characters, but nothing that's at the top of the card or a main draw to the shows.

    Though I purposely left off RUSH. That guy is a star, and I'm just not sure what ROH is doing. I discussed this with Cult Icon off-LOP, and he was telling me how much stronger he is as a heel. I'm in no way arguing, but I was so ready to get behind him as the face of the company. This change in direction isn't very interesting to me so far. Lucha is my least favorite wrestling style, so having him in a stable with Dragon Lee seems to be bringing out more of the Lucha style from RUSH. I find that to be "meh" (just like the new trios champs).

    On my USB key, I had Hard To Kill, Sunday's ROH show, Dynamite from last week, and the last 3-4 episodes of MLW Fusion. And I chose to watch ROH this evening because overall I'm more interested in these shows. ROH just has more to offer overall. If Marty can improve on that, I doubt you'll hear me complain.

  40. #80
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    SUPER agreed on Rush being a star. The dude just seems so charismatic, he's got that rare aura about him.

    I think Scurll taking over is a good thing, on it's face. So many people were down on ROH last year, whether they watched it or not. They had to do something to show they were changing their approach, so even if it's just a question of quietly removing the stuff fans didn't like and focusing on the things they are doing right then I think it could help them a lot.

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