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  1. #81
    Lamb of LOP anonymous's Avatar
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    I just think every Political Party in the UK right now is invisible or a shambles.

  2. #82
    Author of 101 WWE Matches To See Before You Die Samuel 'Plan's Avatar
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    It really is shambolic and so, so embarrassing.

    Generally I've always been a little torn about the notion of a People's Vote, leaning towards having one more than not but always recognising the legitimacy people might have for complaining about one. At this point though it does, to me, feel like the only viable way forward. No Deal should be taken off the table in my opinion, meaning a second referendum becomes simple: May's Brexit or No Brexit. If the former wins then the matter really is closed and the Commons would surely, at that stage, be compelled to vote through May's deal (though in the current climate you never do know...). But then if the latter wins...I mean, it'd be foolish to pretend that won't open up a whole other Pandora's Box.

    I feel a little hopeless about it all right now, and the prospect of No Deal, I can't help but notice, keeps slowly looming larger and larger and larger.

  3. #83
    Administrator Prime Time's Avatar
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    What a lot of people don't seem to remember in all this is that we keep talking about the 'deal' and 'no deal', but we're not even into talking about the deal yet. We're still stuck on the withdrawal agreement that we had to have done before they'd even talk trade.

    And y'know, given how it's played out, you've got to say that was a very smart move on the EU's part, because we can't even seem to decide what we want.

    "The worst moron is the one too stupid to realise they're a moron."

  4. #84
    Well be living with this for years regardless

  5. #85
    Administrator Prime Time's Avatar
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    Well, not every day you find the Queen getting involved. You know you are in a constitutional crisis when.....

    "The worst moron is the one too stupid to realise they're a moron."

  6. #86
    Had the Radio on in the car and heard Labour are calling for Greyling to resign over the ferry company with no boats lol beyond the thick of it now

  7. #87
    Administrator Prime Time's Avatar
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    Big few days, huh? 11 MP's have broken away from Labour and the Tories in the past couple of days and formed an 'Independent group' in Parliament.

    Far too early to think of them as anything like a new party as yet but it's the first sign of some sort of movement to break the deadlock in parliament, and to shake up what are some pretty unfortunate political pigeon holes.

    I'm sure people have some opinions on all this....?

    "The worst moron is the one too stupid to realise they're a moron."

  8. #88
    Senior Member Gooner's Avatar
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    I haven't looked into it too much, but the name that stands out to me there is Chuka Umunna; wasn't he suggested as a future leader for Labour?


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  9. #89
    Administrator Prime Time's Avatar
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    Briefly, yeah, but question marks about how much support he had and he dropped out too early for there to be any test of how likely he was to win.

    It's a really minor point but with three leaving the Tories the government is now a minority, even with the confidence and supply motion with the DUP. Though that may be more of a maths point than a political reality.

    "The worst moron is the one too stupid to realise they're a moron."

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prime Time View Post
    Though that may be more of a maths point than a political reality.
    I think this is actually more like a political reality, Prime - there's no way those three MPs back the Government, nor will the ones that have left Labour. I think the Conservatives are no either counting on their abstentions - they may not back a Labour amendment, for example - or there being enough people like Kate Hoey who will back them on the Labour side.

  11. #91
    Administrator Prime Time's Avatar
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    I suppose what I meant is that they aren't going to suddenly back a vote of no-confidence that might put Corbyn into power. They will probably abstain, as you say, but if the former Labour members were also to abstain then it doesn't especially hurt as they'd still have a net plus out of the defections, if that makes sense.

    Also worth adding that because of Sinn Fein and the Speaker, the working majority figure is actually slightly different than an actual majority - and that in practice, you only need 322 votes rather than 326 - and with the DUP they currently have 324.


    My guess is that if they do see a round of defections from the likes of Greening, Boles, Grieve etc to this centrist block, or if they lose the DUP, then the government will actually fall. Whether or not a new election can do anything is a matter of guesswork.

    "The worst moron is the one too stupid to realise they're a moron."

  12. #92
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    So now May is promising a parliamentary vote on her deal, which if rejected means there will be a vote the next day on whether to proceed with no deal, which if rejected means there will be a vote the next day on 'a short, limited extension' to Article 50, not beyond the end of June.

    When will she get it that her deal is unworkable, nobody wants a no deal, and a short extension means nothing?

    Is she just so fucking pig headed in her insistence that we leave now that she can't see it?

    I'm getting fucking tired of the whole thing, to be honest. I hope we stay.

  13. #93
    Administrator Prime Time's Avatar
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    See, here's what I think. That last vote is basically just to establish the principle of extending. Once parliament has voted to extend it'll be easier to get a longer extension through, which is actually what it'd need to be in order to do anything meaningful.

    Trouble is, what happens at the end of that? Unless we've had another referendum and the idea has been put back in its box, all the same problems will still exist. The border issue in Ireland isn't going to go away. The business case isn't going to change (though there's a lot of evidence that the damage has frankly already been done, with the Netherlands in particular already seeing the benefit of a lot of relocation, and those jobs ain't coming back whether we stay or not).

    Of course, if we do have a longer extension, then we have to have EU elections later this year....



    Apparently, that amendment yesterday was so unusual that even the PM had to ask her own whips which way she was supposed to vote, and MPs were double-taking at who they were in the same lobby with. I think the amendment actually had Corbyn and JRM's names not just on it, but next to each other. Bizarre state of affairs.

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  14. #94
    Toubabo Koomi The Dude's Avatar
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    I heard medication that comes from Europe might become harder to get hold of.... I hope my friend is joking, because I am completely dependent on my meds.
    ďThere he goes. One of God's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die.Ē

  15. #95
    Administrator Prime Time's Avatar
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    They are not joking. Supply chains will be affected unless the right legislation is put in place. People were warned about this year's ago, to be fair. But what it is boils down to is if we can't sort things out to keep freight traffic moving, it's likely to affect most goods - medication amongst the list. There's nothing already in place to make it a special case anyway.


    Non-Brexit news, sounds like we're leaning to the European position rather than the American on this Huawei thing, which might have an impact on your 5g broadband, amongst other things.

    "The worst moron is the one too stupid to realise they're a moron."

  16. #96
    Administrator Prime Time's Avatar
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    Have literally no idea how the next few hours, never mind days, are going to go.

    "The worst moron is the one too stupid to realise they're a moron."

  17. #97
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    Explain to me how British government works. Is your Parliment kind of like our House and Senate? And your Prime Minister is like our President? And... how does the Queen fit in? (If I remember correctly... thatís mostly just a title that has no bearing in the actual politics nowadays, yeah?)

  18. #98
    Administrator Prime Time's Avatar
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    Your government is actually modelled on ours, although there are some differences in practice. But what you've said here is basically accurate enough.

    House of commons is an elected body. They make the law. The Prime Minister has to sit in the house, so that's one big difference - our executive and legislature are in the same place.

    House of Lords aren't the traditional Lords anymore but people appointed to the upper house for either expertise or party loyalty. They scrutinise the laws passed by the house of commons. But because they aren't elected they can't prevent the Commons from passing it's legislation if the lower House is determined to get it through.

    The Queen still has a constitutional role, but in terms of actual politics, it's been expected since the days of Queen Victoria that publicly, they'll remain neutral. She technically 'appoints' the Prime minister based on who can command the confidence of the Commons, which in practice means you can get a new PM without an election. It is also the Queen that opens and dissolves Parliament.

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  19. #99
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    The House of Lords bit intrigues me. You say they are appointed either by expertise or party loyalty, and then you say they scrutinize laws but canít necessarily prevent new laws being formed. Are they able to overturn laws? Sounds kind of like our Supreme Court...

  20. #100
    Administrator Prime Time's Avatar
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    It's a bit more like the relationship between house and senate, but imagine that the house has a bigger say. So they can refuse to pass legislation and send it back to the Commons for revision, and then it's up to the government to try and get it through again or to drop it.

    So basically they can't stop the government at that stage, but they can delay it and try to force changes that way. If there's huge support it probably won't work but contentious stuff can get improved this way.

    Originally the house of Lords were the genuine aristocracy and they had a role much more equal in the law, but that was considered democratically untenable after about 1800 and you see a gradual decline of their power over the next 180 years or so.

    "The worst moron is the one too stupid to realise they're a moron."

  21. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prime Time View Post
    It's a bit more like the relationship between house and senate, but imagine that the house has a bigger say. So they can refuse to pass legislation and send it back to the Commons for revision, and then it's up to the government to try and get it through again or to drop it.
    Okay. Sounds like our house and senate when itís not ďcontrolledĒ by one party. (For the most part, thereís typically a balanced house and senate in regards to Democrats vs. Republicans. Sometimes the house and senate are mostly all one side, along with the President on that same side. Thatís when silly laws get passed because thereís not enough of a divide to protest.) When there is a balanced house and senate, new laws get brought up, voted down, the law is reworded and gets sent back up.

  22. #102
    Administrator Prime Time's Avatar
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    As you mentioned the President/Prime minister thing.... this is harder to outline because both jobs are famously badly defined. In both cases it's as much about the person that defines the office as anything else.

    The best description I can think of is to say that the President sort of combines aspects of the Monarch with aspects of the PM, while the PM sort of combines aspects of the President with aspects of the House Majority Leader. They aren't the head of state, or head of the military, or anything like that - but they do have the most responsibility for both domestic and foreign affairs.

    One way for a PM to get criticize is to be seen as 'too Presidential' - there's a marked preference here for cabinet-style governance where more delegation goes on. But that might be more old fashioned than we think.

    Anything else I can help you with?

    "The worst moron is the one too stupid to realise they're a moron."

  23. #103
    Not too butt in but plenty of talk that the May deal is dead, no one knows what comes next, and we might have to have a general election.

  24. #104
    Administrator Prime Time's Avatar
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    Well it lost by 150ish. Sounds like the no deal vote is going to be one-sided tomorrow, but God knows after that, and no clue how it'll all resolve. Be mad to try and make a prediction at this stage.

    "The worst moron is the one too stupid to realise they're a moron."

  25. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prime Time View Post
    As you mentioned the President/Prime minister thing.... this is harder to outline because both jobs are famously badly defined. In both cases it's as much about the person that defines the office as anything else.

    The best description I can think of is to say that the President sort of combines aspects of the Monarch with aspects of the PM, while the PM sort of combines aspects of the President with aspects of the House Majority Leader. They aren't the head of state, or head of the military, or anything like that - but they do have the most responsibility for both domestic and foreign affairs.

    One way for a PM to get criticize is to be seen as 'too Presidential' - there's a marked preference here for cabinet-style governance where more delegation goes on. But that might be more old fashioned than we think.

    Anything else I can help you with?

    Nope... you've pretty much answered my questions.

    You said our government is basically based on yours. Which means I'm blaming you Brits for the fucked up state we have over here now. (J/k... I realize this happened way before you were ever born...) I truly hate a two-party system. If someone thinks they have a great idea that will carry their country to great new heights... it shouldn't be pigeon-holed into a party. Sorry for the derail. Back to British stuff...

  26. #106
    Administrator Prime Time's Avatar
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    No worries, glad to help out anytime you've British questions!

    They're now voting on the no deal stuff. An amendment moved by Yvette Cooper is up first though. Decision expected shortly.

    Edit: the amendment has just passed. Moving to another amendment now.

    "The worst moron is the one too stupid to realise they're a moron."

  27. #107
    Administrator Prime Time's Avatar
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    Fuck a duck, Bercow's not letting May put her vote forward again.

    It's a literal river of shit hitting a plethora of fans in there right now.

    "The worst moron is the one too stupid to realise they're a moron."

  28. #108
    Lamb of LOP anonymous's Avatar
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    I hate Bercow but right now he is my favourite person in Politics.

  29. #109
    Administrator Prime Time's Avatar
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    Confession time, I actually kinda like Bercow. But I've got a longstanding affection for the role of the Speaker, so perhaps it's not a surprise. I do get that he's a bit showy and that might put something off, but I do think he does a good job. He's probably my second favourite in the role.

    I can't imagine anyone surpassing Betty anytime soon though.


    And yes, I am talking about this trivia to avoid concentrating on the serious issues.

    "The worst moron is the one too stupid to realise they're a moron."

  30. #110
    Senior Member Gooner's Avatar
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    He's the Mike Dean of politics (kudos to anyone that gets that reference).


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  31. #111
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    PT... I know this whole Brexit thing was... a bit of a thing for a bit. However, Iím lazy and donít want to read a bunch of different things after using the google. Can you explain Brexit like in simple laymenís terms?

  32. #112
    Senior Member Gooner's Avatar
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    No. No one can. Even the PM has no bloody clue..


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  33. #113
    Administrator Prime Time's Avatar
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    That's probably true, but I'll have a go. Though this will just be the basics, because it's incredibly technical.

    But the European Union began in efforts to prevent another war in Europe after World War II, by bringing the countries closer together. The main method of doing that was by encouraging free trade between the member states. That led to the formation of the European Economic Community in the 1950s and something called the customs union, which is when they agreed that there'd be no tariffs between the member states.

    Britain wasn't part of it back then after opting out, but after some economic difficulty there was a long push to change our minds and we finally joined in the 1970s. But there's always been a mixed attitude towards the EU ever since. The issue, in particular, has effectively brought down the last three Conservative Prime Ministers, and is likely to bring down a fourth, as Theresa May looks like a dead woman walking.

    The EEC eventually developed into the EU, and free trade is very much still at the centre of what they do - one of the effects of the Customs Union is that across the bloc, you have to have shared standards and laws so that a business in the south of England can trade with one as easily in Poland or Portugal as they can with one in Penge or Prestatyn. The other area is that if you're a citizen of one EU state, you are supposed to have a baseline level of rights across the whole bloc - including the right to live and work in any member country. What this means is that in some cases EU law can supersede domestic law, and the latter obviously has implications for people concerned about migration.

    So the issue plays to a central fissure in conservatism - one that will be very familiar to Americans - between free-marketers, capitalists who are broadly pro-EU, and more people whose conservatism operates more around nationalism. We've been governed in Britain by a party put together by a coalition of these groups since 1979 (basically though I am summarising a lot here) so the issue divides the people who tend to have control, and so it kinda causes chaos. To make it worse, liberals here tend to have an internationalist desire to support the free market wing, while those socialists on the hard left will often support the nationalists and see it as a chance to weaken a large free market body. In effect, you end up splitting the country pretty much down the middle.

    And so leaving all the trickiness and the technicalities out of it for a minute, as well as my own position, the issue basically boils down to this: is it worth abandoning your place in the single market and undergoing a massive transition almost certainly involving a lengthy recession, in order to opt out of things like the EU laws on rights, and on the free movement of people - as people who vote that way say, for them it's about sovereignty.



    Now this could get complicated very quickly, but here's why it's still a thing. In the 2016 Referendum campaign, there were a lot of options about leaving that were put forward, but the ballot paper only offered a simple in-out choice. So there was a close result to leave, but no one really knows what sort of future relationship with the bloc people were voting for - and people who want to try and minimise the economic fallout want to stay closer to them, which could mean that you end up taking direction from the EU without having the voting rights in their decision making that we currently enjoy. Conversely, there's a group on the right wing of the Conservatives advocating that we leave without a deal and break entirely - but that has literally thousands of implications ranging from the business community to fundamental things such as the supply of food, medicines, and even toilet paper.

    Right, I'm going to stop there because soon you'll be wishing you'd google it. And to be honest, you can get more information about it than that, but it doesn't really make it a lot clearer.

    "The worst moron is the one too stupid to realise they're a moron."

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