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  1. #1
    Administrator Prime Time's Avatar
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    The Lords of Pain World Heavyweight Championship - 2017-2019


    Welcome back to what might well be the final instalment of the LoP title series. We’ve found ourselves spending the last couple of years recognising the IWGP Champion as the LoP Champion, but I think it’s safe to say that there is some division amongst people on the board as to how far we should stretch that. It isn’t going to take a lot for the consensus that is holding us solid in Japan to fall. Joining me, to try and bring us up to date, are Mazza, Uncle Joe, LWO4Life and Mizfan.

    Last time, Kazuchika Okada carried the belt through the World Tag League season in 2016, into the main event of Wrestle Kingdom XI, where he bested Kenny Omega to retain the title. Okada’s fourth reign, then carries on into 2017. We have to make our next decision because there are 63 days scheduled between his victory over Minoru Suzuki, and his bout with Shibata in April. Several options are open to us. We can ignore the 3 days as we’ve done in the past. There’s also a match against Tiger Mask W in the meantime which can be raised to a title match if he fails the first vote.

    So, a) are we happy to give him the extra three days to defend the title?
    b) are we happy with the Tiger Mask W match as an additional defence of the title?

    No, we extended the window. 2 months is more than enough. And no for Tiger Mask. We have seen some silly stuff happen in the States over the course of this but we just keep bowing down to the New Japan schedule and it sucks.

    At this point I'm satisfied to stick with New Japan indefinitely... give him the extra days! And give him the extra defense to boot!

    I'm as happy as Maz sticking a nail down his urethra...wait I'm supposed to be unhappy. Ergh I vote no, both times.

    My answer is yes to both! Yes, give him the three days. With that said, the Tiger Mask W match would be a 5-star match worthy of a title defense!

    The vote is 3-2 to grant the additional days for a defence


    The three days were waved through, but safe to say NJPW aren’t getting through without criticism. A majority seem to be sticking together solely because they’ve given us at least a semblance of stability (Bad Luck Fale notwithstanding). But in a twist that might come to their rescue, Okada wrestles a more active schedule in 2017, knocking off Shibata, Fale, drawing with Kenny Omega and besting Cody in consecutive months. 19 days later, he enters the G1 tournament again. As might be expected, he won’t wrestle a singles match other than G1 until October, but his G1 matches mean he’s plenty active enough and if we judge one to be a defence, he can continue as the champion. He’s certainly not ‘inactive’ in the traditional sense and I suppose the question becomes whether we should hold it against him if title matches aren’t booked.

    Anyway, here are his potential opponents. Toru Yano, Michael Elgin, Sanada, Satoshi Kojima, Juice Robinson, Tama Tonga, EVIL, Minoru Suzuki, and Kenny Omega.

    If none of his G1 matches are recognised, Okada will be stripped of the title as of August 30th, 2017.

    Asking me to continue with this farce is akin to me pulling off the pubic hairs of a Bengal tiger. Luckily for you bunch I live on the edge.

    None.

    Last time I voted for all matches to through, and it gave us the eternal shame of Bad Luck Fale as the recognized champion of the world. Nevertheless, I feel I must vote with my principles. Once again, I say every match is a defense!

    My vote is to have this cocksucker stripped but I know I'm in the minority here (figuratively and literally) so if I must vote I guess I can go with any one of the matches I guess?

    Yeah, you can go with any or all, it's up to you, though I'll put it in for a vote to strip unless you wanna specify.

    Yeah, I'm good with the stripping. I'm also good with removing the belt off of Okada if necessary.

    You know I like this G1 stuff. It might be my favorite part of this vote each time. Okay, I have to say Tonga, Juice Robinson... And I think I'll regret this but, OMEGA as his defenses.

    The board votes 3-2 to recognise the match with Kenny Omega as an LoP title defence



    History repeating itself. The one match to get over the line was the match with Kenny Omega, perhaps because it was a rematch from a draw earlier in the year. And, for the second year running, Okada lost the title during the G1 tournament. So, we’re divorced from the IWGP title once again, and need to find a worthy defence amongst Omega’s matches. There’s only two to choose from: against Juice Robinson on Destruction in Kobe, or against Yoshi-Hashi at RoH Global Wars. Both are defences of the NJPW US title, but are either World title worthy?

    That’s a no from me, dawg.

    I mean we've let Okada’s bum ass have not one not two but 4(!) reigns so fuck it, why not let Seth Rollin’s twin brother have a shot at it.

    Yes, to both! Juice has a stronger case but I'm both tired of vacating and also a fan of giving shots to all comers. We'll hope it doesn't leave to another Falegate situation.

    Both feel like a bit of a stretch, but looking at their records, I can just about stretch to Juice. Yoshi-Hashi is just a stretch too far for me, though.

    Okay, I don't know if the belt is world title worthy, but Omega is world title worthy. Awww... Just Juice me. Bring on the Juice as his defense.

    The board votes 4-1 to recognise the match with Juice Robinson as an LoP title defence


    Omega got just enough votes in to carry on as champion. But we find ourselves in an interesting situation next. We voted to make the World Tag League window off-limits. But in 2017, Kenny Omega and many other high-profile wrestlers in NJPW will not enter the World Tag League, so he’s not going to get the benefit of that protection. We only voted to protect participants in that League, not all wrestlers anywhere in the world, ever. The long and short of this is that he needs another defence, and there’s only one relevant match for consideration, against Trent Beretta on Power Struggle 2017. If that passes, he’ll make it into 2018 and I suspect beyond. If it fails, the title will be held up as of November 23rd, 2017.

    I think Trent deserves a shot, and Omega deserves to carry on. I vote for the defense!

    Fuck me, if that defence passes I'm forming my own title.

    I can’t go along with that one myself. It’s too much for me. I don’t like to forfeit the title but I think you have to draw a line, and this is definitely on the wrong side of things. Trent Barretta as world champion? No. Not risking it.

    Really, Trent Barreta? I guess. At least he has a few NJPW titles under his belt.

    Ooooooooo. Yeah fuck Omega and his match.

    The Board votes 3-2 to vacate the LoP title



    The coalition holding us in NJPW has fractured. Trent Barretta proved to be a bridge too far, and Omega has been stripped of the title on 23rd November. The title is vacant again. If there’s a bright side, it is that it hasn’t been held up for more than a year now, so it’s not as bad as some of the spells that we’ve been through in the past – and nothing, anywhere, ever, is ever likely to be as bad as the mess we got ourselves into in 1999.

    One interesting factor about it falling this way is that NJPW don’t have another match scheduled until January, so they aren’t in contention this time around. That means unless we reject another bunch of matches, we’re definitely heading somewhere else. There’s also no Universal title match because of Brock’s schedule, and the AAA Mega title is defended so infrequently that once again it’s not an option despite our voting to make it so. But there are some more intriguing things on the list here than in some previous go-rounds. So, with all that in mind, what have you got?

    RoH: Cody vs Jay Lethal
    WWE: AJ Styles vs Jinder Mahal
    Impact: Eli Drake vs Johnny Impact vs Alberto Del Rio
    NWA: Nick Aldis vs Tim Storm
    Triple Crown: Joe Doering vs Yoshi Tatsu


    Honestly, at this point in 2017 there are a lot of extremely dubious names on that list. I can't imagine risking our title falling into the hands of the likes of Jinder or ADR, let alone Tim Storm or Yoshi Tatsu. The ROH match is probably the least risky of the bunch but it hardly inspires me. Frankly I vote to wait for the next batch, or if we're smart, we'll just wait til Wrestle Kingdom and put the belt back where it belongs, again!

    I think I’ll plump for that RoH match. I’m intrigued by going back to the NWA after all this time and would bet the farm on Aldis winning that match, but I agree, if there’s even a one in a hundred chance of Tim Storm escaping with the belt – and we’ve seen roll-ups happen to better wrestlers than Nick Aldis over the last hundred plus years of the title – then it’s too great a risk. RoH.

    Eeesh, as much as I don’t want Jinder at least it is the back end of that experiment. WWE title time for me.

    Give me something vs Yoshi because if it gets Yoshi a shot at the title I'm all for it.

    Wait, people would rather have the title on Jinder than let Omega defend against Barreta? I'm voting Jinder vs. AJ because everything else isn't worthy.

    The vote is 2-1-1-1 to recognise the WWE title match as an LoP title match

    It wasn’t a clear and decisive vote but split opposition means we nominate the WWE title match as a bout for our championship too, and AJ Styles wins it. He holds the belt for a long time until he defends against our former champion, Bryan Danielson, now going by some twisted version of that name in the WWE. Danielson wins the title but does so after a low blow, that was missed by the referee after what the announcers called ‘incidental contact’ between the referee and Styles. The question is – is ‘Daniel Bryan’ the LoP Champion after this match, or is a missed low blow sufficient to get involved, either by continuing to recognise AJ Styles or by holding up the strap?

    Hell yeah, Bryan is our LoP champion. Don't be impotent guys and do the right thing.

    Daniel Bryan gets the belt! The ref’s decision is final! Plus, we need Bryan as champion. He's the champion we need!

    I buy the incidental contact. The NEW Daniel Bryan is our champ.

    I think that's a little too picky for us... we've interceded for major shenanigans but something like this doesn't seem to qualify in my eyes. I say we let Danielson move on ahead.

    Too picky is definitely how I’d put it too.

    The vote is unanimous to recognise the switch to Daniel Bryan


    The votes are in to pass the belt to Bryan, and he holds it until Kofi Kingston wins the belt at Wrestlemania. With no more title changes since, and no real reason for us to get involved since Wrestlemania, that means the championship committee have concurred that the reigning Lords of Pain World Heavyweight Champion is Kofi Kingston.

    Before we wrap things up, there’s one final decision that we must take. There is a new player in the wrestling landscape, one that is making waves and getting attention: our final decision relates to the AEW title, and whether we recognise it. If you were to make a ‘pro’ case, it’s held by former LoP World Champion Chris Jericho, and does have a lot of buzz. If you were arguing against, you’d say it’s been invented out of nowhere, pulled out of a bag, Hangman Page got a title shot for competing in one of the worst battle royal’s anyone has ever seen and it only really has buzz because the guy backing it is a billionaire. So, in terms of principle, there’s a clear case both for and against this, and that means we’ll have to put it to a vote. It could be quite a significant vote for us going forward. How do you vote in terms of recognising the AEW title as a potential world title for our consideration?


    Not yet. They need to establish it a bit first. And with the Wednesday Night Wars if AEW counts we can't discount NXT.

    First of all, I strongly object to the idea that the first Casino Battle Royale was "one of the worst battle royal's anyone has ever seen"! I can promise you it's nowhere close, and for that matter I actually enjoyed it.

    It’s an absolute joke of a match. How on earth anyone allows Orange Cassidy to get in a ring when he thinks a tap to the shin is legitimate offence is beyond me. He needs to be kept out of the ring for his own protection. And surely, the referees should have prevented Nakazawa from getting into the ring with a bottle of oil? I fully expect them to inspect that backstage, and even if he sneaks it in they need to be getting into the ring to try and take it from him.

    Of course we should recognize AEW as a World title. They have one of the best rosters I'm the business and they have a credible champion. I do question how they'll actually do, but the roster does have former LOP champions and wrestlers that could be seen as credible LOP title holders.

    It wouldn't be the first title we recognized upon its inception, and if we continue it probably won't be the last either. Considering the high-profile nature of the championship and looking at who is likely to be in immediate contention for the title, I can't imagine any valid reason to snub it. I vote AEW goes in the mix.

    With that all said, the Universal title was created out of nowhere, which I personally hate, but we still see it as a world title. So long live AEW! Long live Chris Jericho!

    Most of the titles we’ve recognised from the start have linked in some way back to the original World title and are some off-shoots or branches of that title, though I must confess I’ve got very little time for the Universal belt and would rather we had just one belt from the WWE. Even so, there aren’t many belts over our history that don’t like back to that original title. Fuck it, I’m a no. And that means it all comes down to you, Joe.

    And the answer is that you must've had a lil’ bit of the bubbly if you think that shit is a viable contender for this prestigious dick belt.

    Vote is 3-2 against considering the AEW World Title as yet

    For now, at least, AEW still has something to prove to use before a majority are willing to consider it as one of our options. Maybe that will change with time. There’s also been no move to try and bring NXT back into the fold now they are on Network TV and perhaps that will also change with time – though for my part I believe that we still have to be careful about allowing any one company to split their world title three ways. There are all sorts of question marks about how far we can open the title up if we go that way, and about how much we can dilute it.

    Those will be questions for another day. For now, this is the end of the journey. We’re up to date, and Kofi Kingston is the reigning Lords of Pain World Heavyweight Champion – the 144th champion since 1905, to be precise. To wrap this up, all that remains is to thank LWO4Life, Mazza, Mizfan, Steve and Uncle Joe for their contributions over the past fourteen columns, and to thank those of you who’ve enjoyed reading these things. As always, to conclude, here’s the ground we’ve recapped today, and I’ll sign-off for the last time. From all of us, so long everybody!


    140th Kazuchika Okada (4) – September 22nd, 2016 – August 12th, 2017
    Kenny Omega – August 12th, 2017 – November 23rd, 2017
    Vacant – November 23rd, 2017 – December 17th, 2017
    AJ Styles (3) – December 17th, 2017 – November 13, 2018
    Bryan Danielson (2) – November 13th, 2018 – April 7th, 2019
    Kofi Kingston – April 7th, 2019 – Current

    "The worst moron is the one too stupid to realise they're a moron."

  2. #2
    LOP's part time glass ceiling DynamiteBillington's Avatar
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    I still say the day you reconsider the AEW title you have to reconsider the NXT Title. At this point in time, the NXT Title has more prestige and several years of lineage. The AEW Title has nothing. Not including AEW is the correct answer.

    I also think it's a good thing that the title was brought back home before this concluded. You guys set some firm rules at the start, then bent over backwards to not implement them before changing those rules just for the sake of keeping the title in Japan for longer. If NJPW can't book their champion to defend in accordance with the rules set out by the LOP Committee, they should never have been granted the title in the first place.

    Finally, it would be interesting to see an overall Stats column covering all the usual stuff like number of reigns, days with title etc etc etc on this to see how it compares with the WWE title - although at times it's felt like you were moving it around more often than the 24/7 title, if Kofi is only the 144th champ in over a century I guess it can't be all that bad.

  3. #3
    Administrator Prime Time's Avatar
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    Well, the main point is that no one raised the NXT title again as a motion. There was talk of doing it if the AEW title motion passed, but it didn't, and no one brought up NXT again. For my part, I still think the WWE title split three ways is an abomination, and that if anything we're better off ditching the Universal belt rather than adding more - especially a championship that the WWE themselves does not claim is a world title. That, for me, is the absolutely paramount fact.

    The problem with the logic you're using here is that the IWGP championship was recognised as a valid championship in the first place, right back at the beginning when those choices were being made. That meant there was already a conflict between the rules we'd set out and the championships we recognised as world title worthy. As I said in the previous column, 'this is a quirk of the calendar and when we recognised the IWGP title as a valid belt I believe we implicitly agreed to accept these windows along with that'. I personally think that's a much fairer representation of what's happened than bending 'over over backwards to not implement them before changing those rules just for the sake of keeping the title in Japan for longer', as you put it. Eventually I think several of us realised that a) the championships in Japan were becoming relatively more prestigious as American championships waned in importance, and b) that our own rules were profoundly biased in favour of America and an American way of doing things. And so a bit of leeway was necessary to solve the problem we'd caused for ourselves in the first instance, short of the very bad look of doubling down.

    You've made that 24/7 joke a few times now, but honestly I think you'll find that if you compare us with most world titles, we're not that bad.There were 5 WWE title changes in 2017, for example, while you can see we only had two new champions in that year. I might just do that stats column to prove that this is the general trend!

    "The worst moron is the one too stupid to realise they're a moron."

  4. #4
    The Brain
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    I still think it's a bit silly that the top championship in a company with a worldwide reach and access to multiple clearly worthy contenders isn't considered a valid option out of the gate, but I suppose that'll change soon as AEW establishes itself.

    And I still can't fathom the argument for including the NXT belt, you couldn't possibly claim it's the top title of the company the way you could argue for the WWE titles we have recognized, and if it's not even arguably top title within it's own promotion, how could it be considered the top title in the world?

  5. #5
    Senior Member LWO4Life's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mizfan View Post
    I still think it's a bit silly that the top championship in a company with a worldwide reach and access to multiple clearly worthy contenders isn't considered a valid option out of the gate, but I suppose that'll change soon as AEW establishes itself.

    And I still can't fathom the argument for including the NXT belt, you couldn't possibly claim it's the top title of the company the way you could argue for the WWE titles we have recognized, and if it's not even arguably top title within it's own promotion, how could it be considered the top title in the world?
    THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I AM SAYING!

  6. #6
    LOP's part time glass ceiling DynamiteBillington's Avatar
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    I think the counter argument to that is that it is the top title in it's promotion - NXT has always been presented as something separate, the lines of Raw and Smackdown have usually been blurred.

    When you see the programmes listed, you see "WWE Raw", you see "WWE Smackdown", and you see "NXT".

    Whether that continues now it's on mainstream TV I don't know.

    The fact remains that to date, the NXT Title has more prestige and history than the AEW Title. At this point in time, that cannot be argued against. I'm not denying that could well change in the coming months, but right here and now it's just the way it is.

  7. #7
    Senior Member LWO4Life's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DynamiteBillington View Post
    I think the counter argument to that is that it is the top title in it's promotion - NXT has always been presented as something separate, the lines of Raw and Smackdown have usually been blurred.

    When you see the programmes listed, you see "WWE Raw", you see "WWE Smackdown", and you see "NXT".

    Whether that continues now it's on mainstream TV I don't know.

    The fact remains that to date, the NXT Title has more prestige and history than the AEW Title. At this point in time, that cannot be argued against. I'm not denying that could well change in the coming months, but right here and now it's just the way it is.
    This is such an easy counter. You have to look at the end goal of the champion. If the champion is holding the top belt in their company, then that's a title that should be in consideration. But if they are holding a title and which they view as a stepping stone to a bigger title, then that's not a title we should consider. Historically, NXT champions have joined Raw with the belt, and then drop the NXT because they're focus is either the WWE or Universal title. It's the NXT belt that needs to be proven because historically it's not a top belt and the champions use it in their journey to a main roster spot.

    The AEW is coming in hot. It maybe created out of thin air, but it's champion is one of the all time greats and it's the ultimate goal of every single person in that company. It's not used as a stepping stone, it's the belt worn by the face of the company. No one is thinking, if I win this title, I can use this to go elsewhere and win a bigger title. They don't do that because there isn't a bigger title to go to. The AEW title is the ultimate prize which Kenny Omega or any other challenger would hope for.

  8. #8
    LOP's part time glass ceiling DynamiteBillington's Avatar
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    To counter the counter, historically ROH champions have used that as a stepping stone to WWE. Some have even stepped up from ROH to NXT on their journey. This next statement is made with no research whatsoever, but I suspect NXT has always had a higher TV viewership despite only being on the Network and has probably sold out larger arenas and toured more internationally than ROH? Yet the ROH title was considered for this despite the same argument applying.

    The fact remains that right now, at this point in time, AEW is nothing but a one hit wonder. Yes, in a week or two's time that will probably change, but as of today Jericho is only the champion of a concept, one which has as much chance of failing in the coming months as it does succeeding.

    In the coming weeks/months and maybe years, one of two things will happen:
    1. AEW becomes the next big thing and lives up to the near impossible hype being built up around it
    2. AEW's ratings are nowhere near expectations, it loses money & the Khans pull their investment - Billionaire's don't get rich by pumping money into a venture that's losing money and TV contracts can be ripped up and cancelled if the required ratings aren't met on a consistent basis


    Much like the rest of you, I hope for wrestling's sake the first option happens, but we have to consider the second option as equally viable at this point in time.
    Last edited by DynamiteBillington; 09-25-2019 at 03:26 AM.

  9. #9
    Administrator Prime Time's Avatar
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    The word that answers so much of this is 'kayfabe'. That's a guiding point of this series that we've (with greater and lesser degrees of success at times) been steered by.

    To go back to Miz and LWO's point about AEW, I think I've got a different justification for ruling it out than Maz (and who really knows why Joe voted the way he did?!). Maz seems to want lineage, and while that's a concern for me the biggest thing is that the track record is only three matches long, and one of them is that battle royale. One that is impossible to justify within a kayfabe framework. So until that's buried so far in the past that it becomes irrelevant, it's not something I can take seriously as a world title.

    Now, to the other point about NXT. Like it or not, the world title point comes back up time and again. The WWE don't claim it's a world title, so in kayfabe, why would we? More to the point, the NXT is a brand of WWE (acknowledged openly on their programming including in the NXT logo), and clearly a stepping stone even within it's own world. People might leap from RoH to other promotions as a stepping stone, but that's not something that happens in the kayfabe world in the way that it does in WWE.

    Put simply, the NXT Title might have more lineage than the AEW title, but it has less lineage as a world title, because it's never been claimed as one. The AEW title has more world title lineage, even if it is only three matches, and one of those was the shittiest shit that anyone ever shit.


    If you abandon kayfabe entirely, then yeah, there are business reasons for considering both AEW and NXT over RoH and some of these others. But at that the same time, that's really to want this series to have been something other than it was.

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  10. #10
    The Brain
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    Ah, that battle royal... sure, there were a couple of jokers in there, but even Nakazawa was just trying to take advantage of the lack of rules to gain an advantage! As for Orange Cassidy, well, he didn't take it seriously and was quickly eliminated for his trouble. Lots of guys in there were fighting their hearts out, Pete!! And we've seen some ludicrous shenanigans in other titles over the years and still considered them valid. But I know I won't persuade you, I'll just have to re-raise the motion when (or if) we revisit this in the future.

    Dyna, can't say I'm too persuaded by your points! I can't view NXT as separate from WWE because it just isn't. Wrestlers in ROH may have less exposure, and they may even be hoping for WWE contracts in the long term, but they are always directly vying for the top title in their promotion, not on a title that has been established as being top of a lesser brand. And I think beyond your two extreme outcomes for AEW there's a more likely option, they put on a reasonably popular show and build on that over time!

  11. #11
    Senior Member LWO4Life's Avatar
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    As someone who wrote a LOT on the history of the world title, and tried to follow the lineage, I have SO MUCH to say. Like I want to restart the Undisputed series, then I remember my threats up to the NWA title being founded are all gone forever and I get sad and depressed again. But still, I'll just keep this very short.

    There is NO true lineage between Frank Gotch to today. When Jim Londos retired, the lineage died. You then have the NWA title, and the ONLY 2 two lineages that have an argument to being connected to that title are the WWE World title and the AJPW Triple Crown title. All other titles, INCLUDING the NWA title don't have that lineage and have no standing as a world title. From the NJPW title, to the WWE Universal title, to the AEW title, to the AAA Mega title, to the ROH title, all were made up in thin air. The Impact title is connected to second NWA title, but I wouldn't consider either as part of the lineage of the original NWA at all.

    So with all that said, what it feels like we are truly arguing is "Kayfab" vs. "Prestige." It's the idea that can a title build up prestige to be a world title. ECW back in the day, even though they were a branch of the NWA title post WCW, they weren't seen as a world title in Pro-Wrestling Illustrated until they started holding pay-per-views and showed they had a national market. So it looks like some are wanting AEW to "prove it."

    Then there is kayfab, and this is where I stand. Is the AEW title a world title, I think yes. The talent on the roster is a world class talent, from Cody Rhodes to Kenny Omega, to Chris Jericho, Adam Page, Fenix, Pentigon Jr., and then you add they have a national TV deal, on a network with more views that Impact or ROH, and they've sold more tickets than any other promotion in the United States not named WWE, and you have yourself a true world title worthy company. In ring work DOESN'T bring down the title to me, as a battle royal is just a battle royal. It's when the title is presented as a joke that I have worry. But putting the title on Chris Jericho to me shows they are taking this seriously, they are presenting the title as a serious title, they have the ticket sales and views, and they have the talent. To me, they have everything to be seen as a world title.

  12. #12
    Administrator Prime Time's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mizfan View Post
    Ah, that battle royal... sure, there were a couple of jokers in there, but even Nakazawa was just trying to take advantage of the lack of rules to gain an advantage! As for Orange Cassidy, well, he didn't take it seriously and was quickly eliminated for his trouble. Lots of guys in there were fighting their hearts out, Pete!! And we've seen some ludicrous shenanigans in other titles over the years and still considered them valid.
    Indeed, but can you think of one of those titles where the ludicrous shenanigans have affected 33% of a title's history? Or where that much of a title's history has featured people 'not taking it seriously', even though it's ostensibly a world title? Honestly, even the guys in the fingerpoke episode don't look that dumb, because at least they're nominally playing for bigger stakes than the belt (advised or not). Even Nakazawa's requires case involves stretching it beyond credulity for me, but while that has a tenuous justification in the other cases I don't think there's really even a leg to stand on. Once that match is just an embarrassing memory hidden away it's something to reconsider, but right now it's an unavoidable blot and I think it's perfectly valid to count it against their title.

    I am with you on it being a better shout than NXT, though in the near future I don't see myself voting for either. Though I do have to backpedal a bit as it turns out the WWE have infrequently called it a world title. Still, we didn't recognise the ECW title as a world title when it was under the WWE umbrella, and I'm still loathe to give the WWE three bites at the cherry. For me, they should have one champion, and splitting it so many times is part of the reason this series came into existence in the first place. So in short, I'm a pretty clear no on NXT unless we throw the Universal belt out first.


    Quote Originally Posted by LWO4Life View Post
    Then there is kayfab, and this is where I stand. Is the AEW title a world title, I think yes. The talent on the roster is a world class talent, from Cody Rhodes to Kenny Omega, to Chris Jericho, Adam Page, Fenix, Pentigon Jr., and then you add they have a national TV deal, on a network with more views that Impact or ROH, and they've sold more tickets than any other promotion in the United States not named WWE, and you have yourself a true world title worthy company. In ring work DOESN'T bring down the title to me, as a battle royal is just a battle royal. It's when the title is presented as a joke that I have worry. But putting the title on Chris Jericho to me shows they are taking this seriously, they are presenting the title as a serious title, they have the ticket sales and views, and they have the talent. To me, they have everything to be seen as a world title.

    I don't think you can go down a kayfabe route and say 'a battle royal is just a battle royal'. Within that framework it's as significant as any other match, and if it's part of the route to a title match it is, ipso facto, a part of that title. If the match is a joke in kayfabe, then the title is a joke. My issue is this partly, then, the knock-on effect of making that match a joke. And frankly, if you take a big swing like that then you deserve to live with the consequences of the fans you knowingly, willingly, turn away.

    Now, the other kayfabe point is this - regardless of who is wrestling for it, what you have is a situation where a promotion has put on a handful of shows, and someone has opened up a briefcase and said - 'hey, see this belt that no one has ever fought for before? This is a world title now'. The question comes down, in part, to how willing you are to go along with that, and to be honest within a kayfabe framework I'm resistant to the idea that a billionaire can just 'name' something a world title, because he's got money and he says so.

    Now, the fact that Jericho has held it, Omega has been part of the lineage, and the likes of Moxley will eventually challenge for it all contribute to the idea that it'll probably pass one day. But that day isn't today.

    "The worst moron is the one too stupid to realise they're a moron."

  13. #13
    LOP's part time glass ceiling DynamiteBillington's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LWO4Life
    It looks like some are wanting AEW to "prove it."
    That sums me up completely on the whole promotion. Right now, they're nothing. That's an undisputable fact.
    I truly hope that in 2-3 years time they have become household names and a genuine international alternative to WWE.


    Quote Originally Posted by Prime Time
    For me, they should have one champion
    I do totally agree with this. I've written two or three columns on this one in the past, always concluding that the IC & US titles should headline Smackdown & Raw, with a single World Title spanning both brands and headlining PPV.



    Also, for what it's worth, I have seen the WWECW title counted as a World Title on Wikipedia and we all know that place never lies.... I know it was on Christian's page a few years ago though so I just checked it and that reference has gone. It was something along the lines of him being an X time world champion, even though he'd only held the TNA & WWECW titles at the time.

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    Senior Member LWO4Life's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prime Time View Post

    I don't think you can go down a kayfabe route and say 'a battle royal is just a battle royal'. Within that framework it's as significant as any other match, and if it's part of the route to a title match it is, ipso facto, a part of that title. If the match is a joke in kayfabe, then the title is a joke. My issue is this partly, then, the knock-on effect of making that match a joke. And frankly, if you take a big swing like that then you deserve to live with the consequences of the fans you knowingly, willingly, turn away.

    Now, the other kayfabe point is this - regardless of who is wrestling for it, what you have is a situation where a promotion has put on a handful of shows, and someone has opened up a briefcase and said - 'hey, see this belt that no one has ever fought for before? This is a world title now'. The question comes down, in part, to how willing you are to go along with that, and to be honest within a kayfabe framework I'm resistant to the idea that a billionaire can just 'name' something a world title, because he's got money and he says so.

    Now, the fact that Jericho has held it, Omega has been part of the lineage, and the likes of Moxley will eventually challenge for it all contribute to the idea that it'll probably pass one day. But that day isn't today.
    I can see everything you said but the Battle Royal part. The only reason why is because the Royal Rumble every year is for a shot at a WWE world title, or even for the WWE title itself, and every year there are jokes and comedy in the match itself. As a lucha fan, I am very much not a fan of AAA and it's use of hardcore in lucha matches, but I would be blind to see just how much AAA has changed and shaped lucha over all, and their success as Mexico's top promotion is a sign that the industry is changing. I think the same with AEW. I do see them as the US's #2 promotion, and I see their very early success and I think we are looking at a promotion that is already bigger than ROH, Impact, and whatever the NWA is, and if they are world titles, then AEW should also be a world title too. But that's my argument. I can very much understand your last point, and from there I have no counter. The made up from thin air argument actually annoys me a lot. It's my beef with the Universal title, even today. NJPW has built up so much equity that I think they are the 2nd biggest belt in the world, and ROH and Impact have each taken turns being the 2nd biggest belt in the US. Also, lucha libre doesn't have "world" titles, but AAA's Mega championship is the closest they have to one, and that's only defended like once or twice a year. Lucha's just a different animal.

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    Administrator Prime Time's Avatar
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    D'ya know, I don't fully disagree with you on the Royal Rumble. I think there is a difference between Rumbles having jokes in them, and being a joke, but the last decade they've definitely shifted to the latter. And yeah, it's affected how I see the title, and the WWE product more widely.

    The difference - and perhaps the only difference, if you don't accept my point that there is still a difference of degree - is that there's decades of WWE title in there before those Rumbles, while AEW confront us with that right out of the gate, even before there's actually a title to debate.

    But I'd actually see this as a better argument for excluding the WWE title than allowing the AEW belt in, believe it or not.

    "The worst moron is the one too stupid to realise they're a moron."

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    Senior Member LWO4Life's Avatar
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    I do think that the fact WWE has TWICE absorbed the NWA/WCW World title (Ric Flair winning the Royal Rumble in 1992 and then Chris Jericho beating Austin and Rock in one night in 2002) makes it next to impossible to strip WWE of World title recognition. With that said, I personally would always be open to striping the Universal title... LOL.

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    I did wonder about the possibility of disqualifying titles as we went along... that probably would have been too much research for this kind of project, but it'd be interesting nonetheless!

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    The fact that we vacated the title rather than vote for Impact, RoH, or the NWA is very telling in which titles would actually be first.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DynamiteBillington View Post
    I still say the day you reconsider the AEW title you have to reconsider the NXT Title. At this point in time, the NXT Title has more prestige and several years of lineage. The AEW Title has nothing. Not including AEW is the correct answer.
    I absolutely would have raised the motion for NXT again if AEW passed. I thought it was crazy it didn't get through in 15. In 19 it should be an absolute given however I don't see where people who voted no would have changed their minds that soon. Even as developmental it was it's own world too and far more qualified than some of the other promotions being considered. People could literally have had a career rise to a company where they no longer had a chance at the title they have held previously. That is madness to me. Then again, I thought the whole late run of letting NJPW get away with everything was madness too and Fale was just our version of Arquette. A sign that all wrestling companies go to shit at some point.

    Prime. I love you. This was a lot of fun. Not sure I understood most of it till half way through. Not sure I understand all of it even now but excellent thing to be a part of.

  20. #20
    Member #25 SirSam's Avatar
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    In defence of Fale not because I love the guy but I think he is copping some unfair flack.
    1. It was in the G1, he is a big lad so js always and will always be a threat in tournaments simply because it is incredibly rare for wrestlers to go through undefeated and thus guys like Fale are used as ways wrestlers can lose.
    2. You guys picked that the matches in the G1 all counted, don't blame the promotion for your decision.
    3. He is far more deserving than any of you are giving him credit for. While he will never be a Rollins or Okada in the ring, he has been great at playing the role assigned to him in New Japan for a number of years. Furthermore his work behind the scenes particularly in the Australian and New Zealand wrestling industry has been really important in building a truly professional pathway for wrestlers in the local scene.

    I guess what I'm trying to say is there are far worse people you could have accidentally ended up with in the lineage.

    Also I think the AEW thing is a bit strange especially since it isn't even necessarily giving them the title, just the opportunity for them to be voted on for the title. Given their talent pool, exposure and backing I think it is quite narrow minded.

    I'd say the same about NXT, while it is nominally their 'developmental territory' in practice for at least the last couple of years it has not been that, it has been a brand unto itself.

    Ultimately you are just opening up options whicj you can then treat on a case by case basis.

    Still great series PT and even though it's finished I'm really looking forward to the future of this idea as I think it really has legs.
    Last edited by SirSam; 09-27-2019 at 06:58 AM.

  21. #21
    Administrator Prime Time's Avatar
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    I'm actually with you on Fale, Sam. I don't think I've knocked him once in the columns, unless you're going to count my observation that we broke from the IWGP title line after that defence as a break in stability as a knock. To be honest, in a kayfabe sense, I don't think you can find a good reason to disbelieve the idea that someone of Fale's size could upset the odds and score a quick win, even if they are ultimately unlikely to hold it that long. I see it a bit like a Valuev or someone in the world of boxing. I get the feeling that the attacks on him - mainly from Mizfan, I think I'm not mistaken in saying - are one of those moments where it comes from the kayfabe side of this slipping. Can probably find hundreds of examples of that across the series as, for the sake of entertainment and making the series a fun thing to be a part of, I've not policed it at all, really.

    Point 2 seems to be a bit more confrontational than is really necessary, especially given it's wrong in a basic matter of fact! We never voted to recognise all matches in a G1 (though we did, once, in a Champion Carnival). The thing that makes it funny to me in the previous column is that the only match we could agree on was one he happened to lose.


    To Maz's point about the NXT title, I actually think it's crazy to consider it, when you're basically saying that the WWE can then point at three guys and go 'he's the best in the world. And he's the best in the world. And see him, too? He's also the best in the world.' No, it's bad enough that we're letting them recognise two world champions! Three is utter nonsense of the highest order.

    And NXT was still a developmental brand up until it landed on a major network, whether anyone likes it or not. Whether that is changing is anyone's guess, but people's own relationship with that brand doesn't change the basic fact. People were only in NXT for one of a small number of basic reasons:

    1) You were there to be seasoned up, given experience of working a promotion more regularly.
    2) You were there to learn more about how to transition to more of a WWE style, or to be more exposed to WWE audiences, before moving to the main roster.
    3) You aren't really there with any long-term prospects of your own, but as someone that they want to work with people that they do want to promote eventually - you are a 'solid hand', in WWE eyes.

    In an institutional capacity, everyone who is has been in NXT fits into one of those roles, regardless of how any individual fan out there sees them. That's just the truth of the situation.

    I've said in the past I'd be willing to get rid of the Universal title and that would be a precondition of including the NXT belt, but if I were to make a defence of the Uni belt over the NXT title..... the latter is the only one that you can't see the champion going on to another show and potentially winning the belt. Most Universal champions - whether it's Lesnar, Rollins, Owens, Reigns or whoever - could plausibly have gone over to Smackdown and won the WWE title. It wouldn't have stunned anyone.

    There's been a brief flirtation with doing it in the past with Finn Balor's promotion and quick Universal title win, but look at the NXT Title throughout history and ask, would I swallow them going up to the main roster and winning the title immediately? More often than not, to be honest, the answer would be no. It's not been presented as a title on an equal level with the others. I prefer it to the Universal title on a personal level, but on in-world perspective it's impossible to justify it as on the same level. Anyone who then points to RoH or Impact is really making a category error - it is simply not the same issue at all.


    Now, to the last point. Sam, while I agree with you on the Fale point I fundamentally reject the idea that it's somehow 'narrow minded' not to consider the AEW title. Leaving aside the potential offence in the accusation, I'll stick to just returning to the kayfabe issue, and will give an example from the world of boxing: if a millionaire made up a belt, got up a match that saw someone from the 1990s (say Evander Holyfield) challenge for it, would that suddenly, automatically, make it the equal of the WBA or WBC belts? Would holding that belt suddenly make Evander Holyfield once again a contender for the best heavyweight boxer in the world? Would Holyfield be the best if the process to choose his opponent featured a bunch of comedians playing the whole experience for laughs? Of course not. That's the basic premise applied to this belt, here - that simply existing in a well-funded company is not enough to make it a viable world title on it's own. If it's not viable, yet, then it shouldn't be in the mix. People might then turn to nitpick about the titles that are up there, but honestly, they are all the result of votes. Whether or not I agree or disagree with individual titles is irrelevant, what matters is whether they got 3/5 votes. If it has 'em, it's up there, and if it doesn't, it's right that it's excluded. Unfortunately when my computer crashed I lost the individual vote tallies that showed who went for what titles and how each belt got onto the board, but if one made it up there it's because at some point 3/5 said it should be - if that coalition doesn't hold for the AEW title, or the NXT title, or any other title - it's really on the company for not holding that coalition together, rather than on the board member (or the fan, at the end of the day) for being unimpressed with them. To say otherwise is ultimately nothing but blaming the fan for the flaws of the product.


    Anyway, thanks everyone for the feedback. I'm not sure how much more they'll be of this in terms of the future, because my own days of writing about wrestling are coming to an end very, very soon, and unless that changes I assume the title will die with my interest in wrestling. But it's been a fun ride, over the last year or so. Appreciate you all making the journey with us.

    "The worst moron is the one too stupid to realise they're a moron."

  22. #22
    LOP's part time glass ceiling DynamiteBillington's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prime Time
    To Maz's point about the NXT title, I actually think it's crazy to consider it, when you're basically saying that the WWE can then point at three guys and go 'he's the best in the world. And he's the best in the world. And see him, too? He's also the best in the world.' No, it's bad enough that we're letting them recognise two world champions! Three is utter nonsense of the highest order.
    By recognising the champions from both Raw and Smackdown, you are taking the letters WWE out of the equation. You are acknowledging that Raw and Smackdown are separate promotions. Now that NXT is on regular network television, it has just as much of a claim to be a separate promotion as Raw and Smackdown do. In kayfabe of course.

    Now that it is on regular television, if you look at NXT as nothing more than a learning ground for people trying to make it big, you are taking kayfabe out of the equation.


    To base so many of your arguments for and against various aspects of this series on kayfabe, then to ignore it completely in favour of behind the scenes knowledge for this one topic is utter nonsense of the highest order.
    Last edited by DynamiteBillington; 09-27-2019 at 10:59 AM.

  23. #23
    Administrator Prime Time's Avatar
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    I disagree with that entirely. It doesn't recognise that RAW and Smackdown are different promotions whatsoever, because everywhere the in story world still recognises them as part of the same company. Your fundamental theory is just not true. It's not behind the scenes knowledge but a fundamental aspect of many layers of WWE stories - including those that integrate promotion of wrestlers from NXT, as it happens. There's a clear and concrete difference between being different brands, and different promotions.

    Whether or not NXT will continue to be what it has been now that it has been on television is a different question, but nothing has happened in an intrinsic narrative fashion to change that to date. Ergo, until it does change, NXT is a testing ground, as it has always been framed in the show's narrative.

    More to the point, I've said time after time that I don't think the WWE should have more than 1 champion. By this logic, once other people have OK'd two, I should then give up that principle and OK 3? That makes no sense and is a complete misunderstanding of how it works.

    "The worst moron is the one too stupid to realise they're a moron."

  24. #24
    LOP's part time glass ceiling DynamiteBillington's Avatar
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    That bit of trolling got a nice quick response!

    I think you know I completely agree on the WWE should only have 1 title thing.

    To be honest the only reason I even started arguing for NXT is because despite it's status as a testing ground, it is still a more proven promotion than AEW which seems to to have been brought into the discussion before it really exists. If you include AEW at this point in time, you are basically saying any nationally televised promotion is up for consideration. As of a week or two ago, that includes NXT.

    It's kind of a moot point anyway, because I don't see you guys doing another installment of this for at least a year and by then we may all have different views on both AEW and NXT. Both may have proved themselves worthy, both may have failed to impress. We just don't know yet.

  25. #25
    Administrator Prime Time's Avatar
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    NXT was brought into the discussion before AEW, for whatever that's worth. Four years before in kayfabe time, and more than a month before in real time. They've each been given a shot, it's not like we were ignoring NXT in favour of AEW. If AEW got vote after vote and NXT didn't, then there'd be a case.

    As I say above, I don't see us doing another one even in a years time, because I don't watch wrestling anymore and I think it probably dies with me. It's primarily been my project and there's been no indication of anyone else suggesting they step into my shoes. And to be quite honest, while I'm not going to dwell on it going forward, I'm not sure trolling is the best way to convince me it's worth revisiting when I can just not bother and save myself the trouble.

    "The worst moron is the one too stupid to realise they're a moron."

  26. #26
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    I am 100% of the opinion that if NXT should be discounted because it's WWE, then only one title should ever count for WWE. Which I see you agree with but I think should have been pressed. That whole argument falls down quickly with 2 WWE options for my money.

    And Sammy, as for picking matches in G1 counted, the board did. I definitely didn't. My blame doesn't lie with New Japan, it lies with the board letting them get away with the type of stuff we wanted to get away from WWE for doing. These long gaps between title bouts was annoying for me and was a reason I steered away from modern Lesnar reigns, meanwhile we are recognising a random number of matches in a non title tournament and giving them leeway while they play tag teams. Just didn't fit in with what we were trying to achieve for my money.

  27. #27
    Administrator Prime Time's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mazza View Post
    I am 100% of the opinion that if NXT should be discounted because it's WWE, then only one title should ever count for WWE. Which I see you agree with but I think should have been pressed. That whole argument falls down quickly with 2 WWE options for my money.
    The honest answer to this was that I considered it outside my remit to press this, and have tried to only raise issues myself when they were 'unsettled' by previous voting. Basically I placed an extra limit on my 'power' as chairman, and said that once something was decided - as the question of the world/universal titles being recognised at the same time as WWE was from the very start - then a challenge to that had to come from one of the other people involved rather than from me. Maybe I should have made that clearer and perhaps someone would have been more likely to press it, if they had.

    But for what it's worth, I'd certainly have considered voting to restrict the WWE to one champion at a time, and would always vote against letting them split their world championship still further, as a basic point of principle. There are still reasons for considering the NXT title as somehow lesser than the other two based on a huge number of storyline factors, but it doesn't even get to that level for me.

    I think we're just going to have to respectfully agree to disagree on the NJPW thing, because I don't see the situation in the G1 and the Tag League as an analogous to the Lesnar situation. In the Lesnar situation, he's sat at home. In New Japan, the champion was competing, it just wasn't in title matches. That's not quite the same, and as I preferred to give the benefit of the doubt where I thought it possible I tended to see the distinction as enough not to intervene.

    And it's also worth remembering that the ability to have those matches only exists because the board voted to give themselves that power so we didn't have to strip Hulk Hogan back in 1993, so while it played to New Japan's advantage later on, it was a mechanism established in favour of the WWF Champion. I believe, Maz, you were definitely on the side of being able to nominate non-title matches as title matches when we had that vote, too, for whatever that's worth.

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    I guess that is the problem when a rare exception becomes and annual event really.

    For NXT there are two sides to it really. If you look at it against main roster WWE then there is absolutely an argument to see it as lesser. If you look at it against NWA, ROH, TNA, they absolutely work on their level and above a lot of the time. While a WWE product and some limited crossover with the main roster, I think the fact that they have never ended up intertwining with Raw and SDL like the two main brands tend to do with each other means it is separate enough. But I was obviously outvoted on that so it is what it is. I think the point they started touring was the point they deserved recognition. They became more than developmental at that point. And while obviously most NXT title contender's main goal is getting to the WWE proper. The same can probably be said for 90% of those for the other US promotions in consideration. And the majority of those will and have happily gone to NXT first to do so. Argument to be made that they are only there to get to the main roster of course. Personally I'd counter its a step up. REgular TV spot on the network, regular "PPVS", making money touring.

  29. #29
    Administrator Prime Time's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mazza View Post
    For NXT there are two sides to it really. If you look at it against main roster WWE then there is absolutely an argument to see it as lesser. If you look at it against NWA, ROH, TNA, they absolutely work on their level and above a lot of the time. While a WWE product and some limited crossover with the main roster, I think the fact that they have never ended up intertwining with Raw and SDL like the two main brands tend to do with each other means it is separate enough. But I was obviously outvoted on that so it is what it is. I think the point they started touring was the point they deserved recognition. They became more than developmental at that point. And while obviously most NXT title contender's main goal is getting to the WWE proper. The same can probably be said for 90% of those for the other US promotions in consideration. And the majority of those will and have happily gone to NXT first to do so. Argument to be made that they are only there to get to the main roster of course. Personally I'd counter its a step up. REgular TV spot on the network, regular "PPVS", making money touring.

    I do see this as being a real world/kayfabe question again. In the real world, you are probably spot on to be honest with you. In kayfabe, it's the category error I was talking about above. There's a storyline difference between NXT having a third brand, clearly a distant third in terms of the importance it's attributed, and RoH or Impact (or whoever) having one guy that they say 'see him? That's the world champion.' That is different, at it's core. Now, the credibility of those promotions actually sits on the boundaries of reality and kayfabe and could have been grounds for a motion to throw them out. But again, as they were in because of other people's votes, it was outside of my remit to suggest getting rid.

    I did actually come very close to abandoning that rule and putting forward a vote on getting rid of the NWA title in the 1990s, but I decided against it in the end and stuck with my first thought.

    An interesting point about the one-time vs annual thing, though that wasn't a limit that was ever included in the first vote so again, it's something you'd have had to have put as a motion in order to change it. It's quite interesting to read Steve's words back in the original decision to include those extra matches:

    "I mean, what do we do in the instance that a company just doesn't book a guy into title defenses? It's one thing to not compete of your own volition, but to just not be booked? That seems unfair."

    Does actually seem to say that there is a difference between the Lesnar/Japanese situations, where Okada and the like were just being booked in other matches.

    "The worst moron is the one too stupid to realise they're a moron."

  30. #30
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    I'll just speak on the Fale thing, since I was the one who bemoaned his title win in the first place! I can't defend the guy as strongly as Sam, but I think comparing him to Arquette is quite the hyperbole as well. He's more analogous to someone like Kane winning the title briefly from Steve Austin only to lose it right back, a guy presented as a dangerous big man who you wouldn't normally think of as a guy who would be top champion. I do think Fale is a bit lower than Kane by most metrics, but not so much that it's really wild to consider him for the brief spot he got. It's a weird blip in our lineage but a fair one!

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    I think I wish I could change the past, because historically there was a way WWE could have had the Universal title come out of thin air, but still fit in with the linage.

    I remember at the time they had the brand split, they did a triple threat. I thought they'd have this ending to split the titles, which would have made all the sense in the world, well except that Ambrose was the champion. In what they should have done is had the champion be someone from Raw, either Rollins or Reigns. Then the other and Ambrose would pin the champion just like the Undertaker/Kane/Austin Triple Threat from 1998. Only this time at the end, both Steph and Shane would argue over who has the real world champion, and then Shane would take the WWE belt and Steph would have created the WWE Universal title. Territories, when they split from the NWA and created their own belt would create a controversy in their territory which would then give them a claim to the world title. AWA did it when they got disputed world champion Édouard Carpentier to lose the title to Verne Gagne in the Omaha territory, which Verne would eventually unify with the AWA title, Freddie Blassie also beat Édouard Carpentier, but never pinned him as the last fall Carpentier was unable to come out (kayfab), which meant Blassie won the world title in LA, but other territories, like Omaha, said that the title could only change hands by pinfall or submission. Hell, WWE split when Thesz beat Buddy Rogers in just one fall, and WWE said they only recognize 2 out of 3 falls. The irony, the next defense of Rogers, he lost to Bruno in only one fall... LMAO.

    So yeah, WWE from the beginning had all the tools to make the Universal title legit, and instead they just created a new title out of air. And it's sad because the WWE title is basically the "World" title from the NWA now, as in 1992 and 2002 it unified with the "Real Worlds Championship" when Flair won the 1992 Royal Rumble, and then again in 2002 when Jericho beat Austin and Rock in the same night! I can write about this shit for days... correction... I have written about this shit for days.

  32. #32
    LOP's part time glass ceiling DynamiteBillington's Avatar
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    Looking at all this with hindsight, I think if this was to happen again when the title does get vacated instead of just considering the next worthy match from each qualifying promotion, maybe look at the match and subsequent reign. That way when the subsequent reign means the title gets vacated again with no defences the match that leads to it is disqualified from the voting.

    But we can talk about all the what ifs etc forever - this has been a great series, I haven't known half of what was discussed, but I enjoyed reading it and hope to see that stats column turn up some time in the future.

  33. #33
    Administrator Prime Time's Avatar
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    As with most things in the series, that one is on me. I did tell people to try, as much as possible, to put themselves in the position that the match hadn't happened yet and could go either way - judging on the size of the match at the time and not the consequences.

    No idea how different the timeline would have been if I hadn't given that suggestion.

    "The worst moron is the one too stupid to realise they're a moron."

  34. #34
    Member #25 SirSam's Avatar
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    Boy has this brought up some discussion.

    Point taken on my second point being a little aggressive PT. Didn't mean to be so aggressive, just wanted to point out the committee did vote for it.

    More generally to what Mazza was saying about NJPW I think the way they structure their calendar works really well for them as a company, creates a lot of variety while also saving the big 1-1 matches and thus creating quite a prestigious title but it doesn't fit terribly well with the way this title was created to work.

    Also now I've read through everything love the historic points LWO is making. Really appreciate the historic knowledge he brings to the table.

    Long term if you aren't planning on continuing regularly, I think this could be a really fun annual thing for a bunch to do. Obviously this is your column so it's your decision, I think you created something really fun & I would love it to live on.

  35. #35
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    I think the AEW World Championship should have been recognised. Sure, it's not as established as other world titles but considering who holds the belt and factoring in the hype around the promotion I think inclusion would have been valid, as is the NXT World Championship.

    Seeing Kofi as champ just brings back disgusting memories of his title loss.

  36. #36
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    Loved the journey and the discussions along the way. This was a series that kept me coming back to the CF on a semi-regular basis, so thank you for that.

    Enjoy having Brock Lesnar as the new LOP World Heavyweight Championship. Wonder if he'll vacate or not!
    Check out all the Cool Points columns here.
    LOP's resident nXt guy
    CF since 2013

  37. #37
    Member #25 SirSam's Avatar
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    Seems like he has a defence scheduled against Cain Velasquez who is in his second ever pro wrestling match and first singles one at that.

  38. #38
    LOP's part time glass ceiling DynamiteBillington's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirSam View Post
    Long term if you aren't planning on continuing regularly, I think this could be a really fun annual thing for a bunch to do. Obviously this is your column so it's your decision, I think you created something really fun & I would love it to live on.
    I totally agree - as Prime has said he's not going to do it again, maybe you could take it over? I'd volunteer myself, but I know absolutely nothing about the Japan & Mexico scenes to suggest potential candidates. Whoever does take it on in a year's time, I'd be happy to contribute.

  39. #39
    Administrator Prime Time's Avatar
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    I might consider letting this go on in other hands. But given this has been my baby and I've put a hell of a lot of thought and time into how it works I'd only really be comfortable with that if we've had conversations about how it'll work, who the participants will be, and more importantly, that it's actually a continuation of what we've done, based on the same principles, rather than just tacking something new on to what we've done without what 'd consider due care and attention to what's gone before.

    "The worst moron is the one too stupid to realise they're a moron."

  40. #40
    LOP's part time glass ceiling DynamiteBillington's Avatar
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    That's why I didn't offer to take it on myself - I know as the lead writer I wouldn't do it justice. I definitely think it would be a good annual addition to the forum though.

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