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Thread: AEW Dynamite

  1. #281
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    Man, is Billy still on the juice? He is 56 and looks amazing.

    But you know what last night pointed out more than anything? That AEW's main problem is size, or lack of size for that matter.

    Billy Gunn is listed at 6'3". That is tall, but not giant, but he towered over and was physically imposing to everyone in that Battle Royal. Billy Gunn...BILLY F'N GUNN, did the 'everyone pile onto the huge man in a battle royal and then he will power out of the spot thus forcing everyone to jump back'. you know the Andre/Big Show/Strowman thing. But Billy Gunn did that spot. That means that your roster has no one of real size.

    Same for Moxley, he is listed at 6'2", 225lbs, and he is the biggest active guy on the roster (Hager is not 'active' yet, although Hager is 6'7")

    EDIT: I totally forgot about LuchaSaurus, who is listed at 6'7" and 250ish, making him the biggest.

    I know that pro-wrestling has been moving away from the 'larger than life characters', but it is very noticeable about the size difference between competitors. The Moxley/Allin match was fun and good, but as the announcers pointed out when Moxley just shoved off Allin's cross body off the top rope "that's what size allows you to do". Allin is billed at 5'8" and '180lbs' (sure, 180 soaking wet) and Moxley is 6'2" and 225 lbs. That is a huge size difference.

    AEW will need to sign some bigger guys. Imagine if a guy like McIntyre, or Keith Lee, or hell, even Strowman came to AEW, who could really stop them? Or if the Viking Raiders came to AEW, they are both big men. They could literally catch any of the lucha style performers in mid air and throw them around the ring.

    Rey vs Brock is a clear example of this, and the WWE has already realized that the match between Brock and Rey is not realistic, so they made it a No Hold's Barred/No DQ match so that Rey can use weapons to 'even the odds'. Weapons matter in a match like this, and will allow the suspension of disbelief to be more prevalent because if Rey hits Brock with a chair or a steel pipe, that is believable.
    Last edited by Powder; 11-21-2019 at 11:39 AM.

  2. #282
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    No......

  3. #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cult Icon View Post
    I never thought of Bray Wyatt once watching that, but I haven't watched Bray Wyatt in nearly five years so that wouldn't have popped into my mind anyway.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kleckamania View Post
    That Dark Order segment was vastly different from Bray's stuff. The segment was shot exactly like an infomercial, but with the slightly dark undertones it was just perfection. Bray's stuff is just a delusional psychotic guy playing with dolls, who has dissociative Disorder. I'd say they are both great, and both very much unique.
    Thematically it was different, but its editing style and sound effects were the same with the glitchy video revealing other things and whatnot, or at least very similar. I would be shocked to find out they didn't use the same SFX and effects kits.

    It's hard to call it a "ripoff", but it's definitely borrowing from something that they know their fans dig already, and there's nothing wrong with that. I'm not going to crap on that, just like I wouldn't crap on Ricochet using one of Fenix's big spots at Survivor Series. Wrestling exists and grows by stealing stuff and putting your own spin on it. But all I could think the whole time was Bray Wyatt.

    At least it's some much needed character development for the guys. They gave me literally what I've been asking for since night one, so it's hard for me to complain. More of that for everyone, please.

    Quote Originally Posted by Powder View Post
    Man, is Billy still on the juice? He is 56 and looks amazing.
    Yes.

    I liked AEW more than NXT. I thought NXT was a trainwreck. Nick and Fenix had what might be the best Nick Jackson or LB match I've seen in AEW. There was selling, there was no extended cero miedo segment. Is it possible that this self indulgent flips and bumps for the sake of it comes from the older brothers?

    I loved that they slowed it down a little, still hit some high spots, but didn't feel the need to throw everything out there. Plus, the idea that Nick was a little awkward and always trying to create separation because he has nobody to tag out to was great. I will say though that if you can't squat, don't do the Sharpshooter.

    The women's match was pretty blah. Britt seemed a step or two off for some reason, and the other girl seemed like she sand bagged on a couple of the bigger throws. Maybe it's just two girls that don't work well together.

    I don't think I'll ever like their battle royals which always seem to devolve into the type of comedy I hate from AEW.

    They're giving Luchasaurus the rocket which is much needed. I just hope that doesn't make Jungle Boy and the child a full time tag team.

  4. #284
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    Quote Originally Posted by LK3185 View Post
    No......
    So you see the same problem, it's ok to admit it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Team Farrell View Post
    They're giving Luchasaurus the rocket which is much needed. I just hope that doesn't make Jungle Boy and the child a full time tag team.
    Yes they are, and they are protecting him by not having him wrestle yet. It must mean that his hamstring is not healed yet, but they want him on TV. Good for them.

    But I remember Austin Matelson from Big Brother when he was on it. And It took a few years for at me at least, unsee the Miz as the MTv reality star, and I still have trouble separating the guy from BB from Luchasaurus.
    Last edited by Powder; 11-21-2019 at 12:19 PM.

  5. #285
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    I must admit I'm surprised to see a lot of people so down on the NXT show across the internet. I didn't see it (obviously) but on paper it sounded like a strong show. Was it just because of the number of brawls?

    As for AEW, that Moxley-Allin match...man. I think Fenix-Nick Jackson may have been better in a wrestling sense bell to bell but the highs of Allin-Moxley were far better. Everything in the last minute or so, from when Allin hits the Code Red to the Avalanche Paradigm Shift was perfect, especially that sequence where Mox caught Allin's Coffin Drop and turned it into a sleeper and Allin then did the Bret Hart-Roddy Piper spot to nearly steal it. It was so seamless in how it was done...fuck I loved it! More people need to talk about that match. That means you mizfan, get in here!


  6. #286
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cult Icon View Post
    I must admit I'm surprised to see a lot of people so down on the NXT show across the internet. I didn't see it (obviously) but on paper it sounded like a strong show. Was it just because of the number of brawls?
    I didn't mind the brawls all that much, but the ladder match really annoyed me. The idea that the leader of UE would agree to a ladder match days before War Games with a title defense the next day (or more, that they'd book that match this week) turned me off of the whole match, and then I just spent it picking apart everything I hated about it.

    Ricochet and Riddle was sloppy as all hell. It seemed like the perfect example of rushing to get all your shit in. They were moving a thousand miles an hour, so there were points where one would be obviously ahead of the other and have to slow down, or one would have to lay there on the mat waiting for the other, just a poor outing from the two.

    Building to two back-to-back PPVs is too much. Coming out of it they still don't have one member of one War Games team announced, and they're not doing a "mystery partner" angle with it or anything, they just haven't announced it. Nor have they announced either NXT team for Survivor Series.

    It was just a show with too much to do, and because of that I felt like it accomplished nothing.

    Revival vs UE was off the charts good.

    EDIT: Ciampa is the shining light in everything. Ignoring the "brand warfare" shit for a moment last night to get a few shots in on Cole, the guy he actually hates and wants to take the title from, was beautiful.

  7. #287
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powder View Post
    But you know what last night pointed out more than anything? That AEW's main problem is size, or lack of size for that matter.
    Quote Originally Posted by LK3185 View Post
    No......
    Yes. This isn't to say all fans need to see larger than life guys. I think the online mentality that everyone thinks the same pollutes more than helps, but there is still an unquestionable asset in wrestling with competitors with size. There's a reason action movies are marketed around muscles, there's a reason UFC/boxing cards harp on heavyweight matches whenever possible...etc.

    This doesn't mean the smaller guys can't be stars, or that AEW can't survive without more heavyweights. But face facts, size matters to many fans, and unless the EVPs continue the line of not caring about casuals (AKA, growing your fanbase any way you can), they'll want to develop more hosses.

    It's partly why Luchasaurus is so over, despite not wrestling recently. Obviously he can wrestle, but one of the reasons people are going nuts, and one of the reasons the rocket is strapped to him, is because the minute he steps into focus with the standard 5'10" height of the rest of the roster, he is an immediate threat. He could have the ability of Giant Gonzalez, and still be over right now (though he obviously wouldn't stay over).

    Quote Originally Posted by Cult Icon View Post
    I must admit I'm surprised to see a lot of people so down on the NXT show across the internet. I didn't see it (obviously) but on paper it sounded like a strong show. Was it just because of the number of brawls?
    NXT told a singular story for 2 hours: Invasion. There was only one match that was NXT vs NXT. So the show, despite having mostly great wrestling, felt like a slog to get through.

    They had the chance with NXT vs NXT UK with Kai vs KLR, but the built in story of Kai losing her spot to Kay Lee Ray wasn't much of a factor.

    So while I haven't watched Dynamite yet, I can see why NXT isn't rating as high. That said, all reviews I've seen rated them equally. It's only here that I'm reading sour responses to NXT.

  8. #288
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    That's what I thought as well, though there were a few other places I saw negative reviews, most of which were centered around the invasion. It feels like there's two camps; one that enjoyed the wrestling and thought that overwhelmed the invasion stuff enough, and one that enjoyed the wrestling but thought the invasion stuff was overkill. I can understand that; if you're someone who watches AEW, RAW, Smackdown and NXT there have been a lot of brawls lately. To then go from all those to several in this episode could be something that gets old quickly.

    Also, the ladder match thing was a bad idea from the get go. They just did one last week! That's supposed to be a match you break out every few months. Doing it back to back weeks cheapens it.


  9. #289
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cult Icon View Post
    Also, the ladder match thing was a bad idea from the get go. They just did one last week! That's supposed to be a match you break out every few months. Doing it back to back weeks cheapens it.
    Yes, but the men and women have to be equal.

  10. #290
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    But some are more equal than others.

  11. #291
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Farrell View Post
    Yes, but the men and women have to be equal.
    I think this statement would ring truer if the women hadn't had the match first last week. It's easier for me to believe given some of WWE's tendencies that this was less about them going "well if the men have a ladder match the women have to as well!" (or vice versa) and more that they were just putting big time gimmick matches together in order to try and top themselves and AEW.

    Speaking of AEW, SOMEONE TALK TO ME ABOUT MOXLEY-ALLIN! Even if it's just to shit on it so I can then shit on you.


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    I haven't watched it yet, but that's because barring the Jericho/Hager apologizing promo, and Scorpio getting the title shot, this has been a very forgettable wrestling show.

  13. #293
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    I don't think that it was just trying to top themselves. The girls did the ladder match for War Games advantage last week, so it's very "WWE" for the men to do the exact same thing the next week. It's just some of that 50/50 stuff, combined with a lack of ideas.

    The reason I don't think it was trying to top themselves is that it's not like it was done to pop a rating against AEW, it really meant nothing on the show. The most promoted things were Raw vs SD vs NXT and the tag match.

    I think it was "the women did it last week and it was good, the men should get the same thing".

  14. #294
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cult Icon View Post
    Speaking of AEW, SOMEONE TALK TO ME ABOUT MOXLEY-ALLIN! Even if it's just to shit on it so I can then shit on you.
    The match was more about Moxley selling to make a much smaller and less experienced daredevil look good. The match was good, and it was fun, but it was a huge let down after watching Moxley vs Omega. I know that you cannot constantly have hardcore matches. No one wants to see them all the time, and the perfromers physically cannot do them all the time. BUT the Moxley/Allin match to me was more unbelievable than the upcoming Rey vs Lesnar match, but at least the WWE is giving Rey weapons to counter the Beast.

    Moxley went through hell with Omega and sold 'real violence' and took hell from a 6', 230lb, world renown wrestler. Then we had to suspend disbelief that Moxley was 'getting hurt' by Allin? Allin is 5'8", and listed at 180lbs, but he must have went to an all you can eat buffet, jumped into a pool fully clothed, and carried 10lbs of lead prior to the weigh in to get to 180lbs, which is where he loses his effectiveness. We are supposed to believe that Allin hurt Moxley after he landed on a barbed wire spiderweb, broken glass, got hung by a chain, went through tables etc, and then got up from all of that and pinned Omega and walked away. Please.

    I respect what Allin does, and I think he has a huge future in wrestling, but he is just not imposing. Pac is short, but he is built and you believe his offense, hell most of the cruisers in WWE have muscle mass, and you can believe their offense as legit. But Allin is not imposing. He is a high flyer (but who isn't in AEW), who wears facepaint, and is fearless. All great qualities, but just not believable against a guy like Moxley.

    The match was fun, but to me it was missing a lot.

    I am an AEW supporter, but if they want to take things more seriously, and 'be more of a real sport', then have weight classes. Allin vs Jungle Boy. That is completely believable. Luchasaurus vs Moxley. Yes please. But Marko Stunt vs anyone? No. Allin vs Moxley, or Hager, of even Luchasaurus, no way.

  15. #295
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    My thing with size in wrestling is that I don’t care about believability or matches being realistic and i dont think a company should sign meatheads with no skill just to appease a section of an audience

    However, I think now companies are looking at trying to find unique and diverse talent and its hard when other forms of entertainment or sport are looking for the same kind of natural talent... I mean Brock Lesnar comes along five years later and hes in UFC, would not even give WWE a sniff

    There is bigger talent out there but its not like before where wrestlers would go into gold gyms and see a guy jacked on roids and tell them to come to a show

  16. #296
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    I agree in that companies should not sign guys just based on size, however companies do need to have more than just a few guys with size. They do need a diverse range of people on the rosters. But look to NXT right now. They have guys in Keith Lee, Dominik Dijakovic, Walter, Killian Dain, the Forgotten Sons, who are all big and talented, and even Riddick Moss, and they also probably have a few more in the PC that we do not know about.

    AEW does not have anyone besides Luchasaurus and Hager who are really big at 6'7" and then Moxley at 6'2". So they have 3 guys. 3. The rest of the roster is smaller. I can and do love to watch smaller guys take on the big guys, for instance Bryan vs Lesnar and Styles vs Lesnar, but Bryan is listed at 5'10" and 210lbs and Styles is 5'11" and 220lbs. Both of those guys are two of the best wrestlers ever, and also 30+ lbs heavier (through muscle mass) than Darby Allin.

    I am not calling for meatheads, but guys like Allin, should be eating and putting on 20-25 lbs of muscle. If Allin was 200-210lbs and muscular, it would take his gimmick so much farther. Look at Scorpio Sky, he is 5'10" and 210 lbs, look at PAC, he is 5'8" and around 210lbs, and everything he does looks believable. Alllin is the same height, but just looks unimpressive and unbelievable, and both come across as much bigger b/c of their physiques. You do not have be like Billy Gunn and roided out and jacked up. Moxley is big and muscular, but not traditionally 'ripped', but he has size and presence.
    Last edited by Powder; 11-21-2019 at 09:58 PM.

  17. #297
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    ...Did Omega do a promo struggling with a 55-lb bench press? Fuck that guy.

    Size matters, and I don't know why a meathead has to have no talent. What's wrong with being a big dude who wrestles like a big dude? So what if he can't do flips, maybe didn't toil for two decades on the indies and doesn't have "the passion for the business"!

    If there was no place for meatheads with largely no in-ring skill in pro wrestling, we wouldn't have a guy like Batista who turned out to be one of the biggest stars the business has created in 15 years.

    I'd love to see a big Braun Strowman or Ryback-looking dude on Dynamite who maybe he can't hang with the Bucks athletically, maybe he can't do a backflip and isn't going to pull off running spots, but he can throw Orange Cassidy into the 15th row with a gorilla press.

    Gimme some roided out freak who isn't the most athletic dude on the planet, but looks like he could pull Darby Allin's head clean off his shoulders.

    Sometimes only being able to do the bare minimum, but being really good at the bare minimum, is waaaaaay better than being pretty okay at insane stuff.

    EDIT: I miss Mox in trunks.

    EDITII:
    Quote Originally Posted by LK3185 View Post
    Darby Allin is a terrible example to your point because he is over because of who he is. He doesn’t need to add muscle (you act like thats easy as well ) to be taken seriously when he does what he does. If he wasnt bumping like a crazy man , he might need to look like a bigger threat
    It's incredibly easy to put on size, especially if you're in a position where you're getting paid enough to not have to have another job.

    Some diet and dedication in the gym, and it's real easy. This is speaking as a guy who broke in to the business at 140-lbs and walks around today around 220, after dropping from 210 to 180 about two years ago.

    It's easy to do if you make the effort to do it.

  18. #298
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    Darby Allin is a terrible example to your point because he is over because of who he is. He doesn’t need to add muscle (you act like thats easy as well ) to be taken seriously when he does what he does. If he wasnt bumping like a crazy man , he might need to look like a bigger threat

    Im not gonna argue about this any further because its personal preference

    Edit; Coach, it took Batista several years to be even passable. AEW has signed a few projects but its not in a position to give people just out of the gym a big spotlight. I would direct any of those type of guys to the performance center
    Last edited by LK3185; 11-21-2019 at 10:34 PM.

  19. #299
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    The size thing really comes down to one question - do you care about them making you happy (presuming they can sort of keep ticking along at the level they are), or do you want them to grow as a company, or do you want the wrestling business to grow? It's not dissimilar to the approach to the current ratings - these are good ratings if you don't really care about the bigger picture but just want them to do enough to stay in business. They are fine, but they don't really demonstrate anything major - no new audience or anything like that, so it's not good for wrestling as a whole so much as it is.... kinda indifferent. It demonstrates that some WWE fans will watch yet more of their product on another night of the week, and that the combined indy crowd will get behind AEW and that they can lure a few people across from the WWE's hardcore base, too. But that's literally about it.

    Similarly, if you only care about your own enjoyment you can get away with saying that it's all 'personal preference', but if you want them to grow it's clearly, demonstrably, obviously not all about personal preference, because there are proven things that work in that arena, and it's quite possible for your own taste to run contrary to what is the right thing to do. Long story short, if half the people who watch the show are going to turn it off when they realise they can kick the ass of 50% of the people they see, you aren't growing that show beyond the tiny niche of people who are already predisposed to you - and the likelihood is you're already tapping most of those reserves.

    "The worst moron is the one too stupid to realise they're a moron."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Farrell View Post
    EDIT: Ciampa is the shining light in everything. Ignoring the "brand warfare" shit for a moment last night to get a few shots in on Cole, the guy he actually hates and wants to take the title from, was beautiful.
    I know this is the wrong thread for it, but this x1000.

    Anyway, I'm happy to confirm that OlliMania is to be headlined by Darby Allin vs Orange Cassidy in a battle for My Wrestling Heart.

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    I don't get the grumbles about Darby's weight. He's 180lbs. He's big enough to hurt most anyone reading this. I buy his offense working on someone whose about 230, pretty easily. He uses momentum to his advantage, plus he's a cut 180.

    I get it for Riho, who roughly weighs as much as a small grapefruit, but Allin isnt much smaller than most on the roster. If the average is 210, that's only 30lbs more than Darby. Completely believeable that he can hang with 95% of the male roster.


  22. #302
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    I'm not sure it's really about Allin in particular, reading back through the conversation. I think his name came up incidentally and people have focused on him. I know my point was about the general perception of the size of the roster taken in the round.

    Though physically he's right on the bottom end of what I'll buy without you convincing me that someone is a once in a generation talent first - and we've had too many runs at that over the past twenty years that I don't think you can even play that card if you get one any more. And even though it isn't as gratuitous as some we've seen, even that kind of weight disparity is going to cause issues for people who believe this should be somewhat realistic if you see it too often, as that's basically the equivalent of middleweights against cruisers or heavyweights. Again, I'd maybe buy it if you could convince me that this was a once in a generation talent, but that horse has bolted now.

    "The worst moron is the one too stupid to realise they're a moron."

  23. #303
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    Which guy is more believable? The left or right?

    maxresdefault.jpg

    And they are the same guy.

    That is my point. The guy on the left is Pac when he was first starting out, then over the course of his career, he realized that being only 5'8", he needs some more muscle mass to be able to appear to be able to legitimately challenge much larger opponents. Darby Allin in 26, and over the next year, as Coach said, through diet and gym time, he can put on muscle relatively quickly.
    Last edited by Powder; 11-22-2019 at 10:42 AM.

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    I don't think Allin needs that, in terms of the character he is, though - he's a very different style to someone like PAC, who relies on looking impactful. Allin lives on his ability to just keep coming at you.

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    All I know is that on Wednesday night Darby Allin vs. Jon Moxley drew more people than Dijakovich vs. Adam Cole when they were going head to head 899K to 821K, with a 30% increase in teenage viewers. Moxley was a big part of that no doubt, but even with him there people would've tuned out if they didn't find Allin believable. The fact that they lost no one and beat the 6'0, 210 lb guy going against the 6'7, 270 lb guy (a match that is more believable according to people here) tells me that, while they may not view Darby Allin as a draw yet, they have no issue believing he can hang with a star like Jon Moxley.

    And it's not just him. Riho, the other controversial person because of her height and weight I suppose, has largely been a hit in the ratings. Her match with Nyla Rose on the first Dynamite drew the biggest increase of teenage girls during the show (a 70K jump), her tag match with Britt Baker on week two and her title defense against Baker the next week both gained viewers overall and the tag match she was in right before Full Gear did some of the best numbers in the 18-34 demo. In some demos she's even beaten Io Shirai, who many feel is a much bigger star, going head to head! It isn't to say all her matches have been massive gains or that they haven't lost viewers in certain demos but on the whole she's been a hit. So some people must be buying it.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
    I don't think Allin needs that, in terms of the character he is, though - he's a very different style to someone like PAC, who relies on looking impactful. Allin lives on his ability to just keep coming at you.

    But when Allin comes at you, why would you fear him if he is not imposing? It is like a fly constantly coming at you. Annoying but not threatening.
    Last edited by Powder; 11-22-2019 at 12:06 PM.

  27. #307
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    Ah, no, I don't think you've quite got the point being made. Obviously, the vast majority of the people currently watching are fine with it, so you aren't going to see a whole lot of people turning over. That's not the gist anyone is getting at, nor is it really likely to happen based on what anyone thinks the current landscape of wrestling is. But for all sorts of reasons, anyone still watching wrestling isn't exactly typical because the way things have gone for over a decade means it's pretty much self-selecting. It's either getting other wrestling fans who aren't already preaching the gospel according to AEW to take a good look at you, or attracting new fans in any statistically significant volume, where there'll be a problem, if there is one.

    "The worst moron is the one too stupid to realise they're a moron."

  28. #308
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prime Time View Post
    Ah, no, I don't think you've quite got the point being made. Obviously, the vast majority of the people currently watching are fine with it, so you aren't going to see a whole lot of people turning over. That's not the gist anyone is getting at, nor is it really likely to happen based on what anyone thinks the current landscape of wrestling is. But for all sorts of reasons, anyone still watching wrestling isn't exactly typical because the way things have gone for over a decade means it's pretty much self-selecting. It's either getting other wrestling fans who aren't already preaching the gospel according to AEW to take a good look at you, or attracting new fans in any statistically significant volume, where there'll be a problem, if there is one.
    Eggsachary.

    A guy like Darby Allin is not going to be able to go on a Talk Show to promote AEW and ask the casual fan, or more importantly the potential new fan to tune in and watch him beat his opponent after the host shows a picture of his opponent (let's use Luchasuarus for an example) and make that person believe that he could beat him.

    Now go the other way. If Luchasaurus was the guest, and at 6'7", 250lbs of chiseled muscle comes out and says his opponent is a guy like Darby Allin, would that non-wrestling fan be able to believe that, and maybe convert that person to watch? yes.

    You never have to worry about the Wrestling fans, disgruntled from one company or not. Fans are fans, and especially in today's market where they is such a range of performers and styles. You are always trying to bring in new fans. The big imposing guys (or gals) make a statement, which is why they usually are the faces of the company. The smaller, thinner, not as muscualr guy (or gal) will always be major players, but they will not be able to convert new people sight unseen, unless they are that transcendent talent that crosses over.
    Last edited by Powder; 11-22-2019 at 12:07 PM.

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    I suppose I should say to repeat myself from earlier that I don't consider Allin to be a particularly bad example of this myself, and while he's at the extremes of what I'll accept, I reckon I could just about go along with it. My points are really meant to be more about the general principle of size, and why it does matter if you're trying to build a decent-sized audience rather than simply satisfy the smaller one you already have.

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  30. #310
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    I agree on all accounts. I keep using Allin as the example because he was the focus of the discussion.

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    Perhaps I missed something but aren't teenagers supposed to be fans we consider new, considering most of them are likely just now getting into wrestling? I'd say so and as I just pointed out, Darby Allin vs. Jon Moxley drew a 30% increase in teenage viewers and increased big in the 18-34 demo, the two key ones because a) it increases the ad revenue and b) it's the one where you're more likely to find long term viewers because they're young. So where you may think this is just AEW drawing people they already have, I'm guessing, because the 12-34 and 18-34 numbers for AEW are generally good, that they are drawing in new, younger fans. And those younger fans, very clearly, seem to like people like Darby Allin and Riho, and as long as AEW uses them correctly I would anticipate they'll get even more popular the more people see them.

    This is really the biggest reason I want AEW to succeed, because I want there to be proof of what I've already believed ever since I fell in love with Lucha Underground; you can do a promotion featuring people of all shapes, sizes, races, styles and whatnot and it will work as long as you present the fans with charismatic characters that entertain them while putting on good matches and telling good stories (and before anyone jumps down my throat, I agree that WWE has tried this as well for several years though to a lesser extent). This is the chance for proof that's the case and as long as AEW keeps up this quality (which I believe has been really strong) I think they'll succeed.


  32. #312
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    Ah. I see what you're getting at. But the key phrase is statistically significant. Even if you are bringing in those fans as completely new (and we don't know that they aren't among the people who watch WWE, which raises questions about how 'new' they are the answer to which is different depending on what question you are asking), then it only really counts for anything if they are coming in bigger numbers than the people you're pushing out.

    Otherwise, it's at best a wash. The best you could say about it without bringing in more than you are letting go is that you are fostering another niche audience from the future which could stop you going out of business entirely. But that's a different kind of 'bringing in new fans' from the one I'm talking about which relates more to the here and now and expanding, rather than simply making sure there's an ongoing hardcore for another generation.

    Not that I'm saying it's a bad thing to have that. Just that it's different.

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  33. #313
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    Do you have any data on either side of the argument where the uptick in viewers were new fans or existing wrestling fans? Was the uptick in viewers tuning off of NXT and onto AEW? or where they completely new viewers? I have no idea if you can actually get that data though.

    But, I would bet good money that viewers from the 18-34 demographic are already wrestling fans for years. If you told me the demo was from 10-18, then I would 100% agree with your statements. But kids, yes they are still kids who are 18-21 that watch wrestling usually are NOT new fans, so they maybe tuning into check it out and already have some sort of predisposition to wrestling, and possibly tuning into watch Moxley and by default Allin, not the other way around.

    It is akin to Lesnar. People tune into watch him regardless of his opponent, but with the right opponent, even more tune in. Moxley still has the 'I left the WWE for AEW' swagger about him, and WWE fans still love him. So they change the channel to AEW to watch their guy over Cole and Dijakovic.

  34. #314
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    I don't have any data on that, and I'm not sure it would exist short of doing your own focus group and some social science research, that I don't see anyone paying to do (except maybe AEW themselves if they are interested in that sort of thing). But like I say.... there aren't enough of them for it to really matter either way. If AEW start pulling in a couple of million viewers regularly and it's clear that it isn't just the people who've been watching RAW or Smackdown have switched sides, then you've got a conversation. Until then, it's just the rump of the wrestling audience talking to itself.

    There's an interesting thing about the demos, though, and that's that in revenue terms it matters less than it used to, is my understanding. It absolutely used to track to more ad revenue but as the people who've been cord-cutting are disproportionately younger, there has still been a benefit to follow the people who are still watching live, so advertisers have become more interested in the older crowd than they used to be. I don't think it's fully equalised or anything like that, but it's a world away from the significance of that it held in the Monday Night War.

    As with so many things, a different world now than it was in 1999. But from what I gather there's no real benefit to winning the younger demo other than to prove something about being more 'hip' (other than, as Cult points out, potentially getting in fans who could stick around for longer).

    "The worst moron is the one too stupid to realise they're a moron."

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    There are a lot of smaller guys who make up for it with other attributes. Rey Mysterio put on muscle, but never enough to really make up for being a foot shorter than most opponents. But he made up for it with speed and technique. He found a way to make it work. Daniel Bryan Danielson accomplished the same insane scientific and technical skill with a penchant for submission holds.

    But they are exceptions. And on a roster like AEW's, they would be the rule. And that's fine. But even those guys have fans that tune out. When the entire roster is filled with those guys, certain fans just won't buy into it. It doesn't make them bad fans or stuck in the past. That seems to be the attitude from the online fans who want to argue against larger than life competitors. And it's just ignorant to reality. Labeling Vince as a man with a boner for muscles is just incorrect, it's only that he's reading the audience better than online fans do. The idea that because a small portion of the fans don't care, that the rest of the audience must also not care... it's unreal

    Darby Allin though is another exception. Not only does he have this gimmick that just works about being nuts, determined, and durable, but he's not a main event guy right now. This isn't saying he can't be, but he's working because he's losing to the real top names. Had he beat Moxley, it might have been a different story.

    That's why I don't mind Jungle Boy and Marko Stunt. I don't want them winning against the top tag teams, but I think it works to see them compete in a losing effort. We need people to bump and make the stars look better.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cult Icon View Post
    All I know is that on Wednesday night Darby Allin vs. Jon Moxley drew more people than Dijakovich vs. Adam Cole when they were going head to head 899K to 821K, with a 30% increase in teenage viewers. Moxley was a big part of that no doubt, but even with him there people would've tuned out if they didn't find Allin believable. The fact that they lost no one and beat the 6'0, 210 lb guy going against the 6'7, 270 lb guy (a match that is more believable according to people here) tells me that, while they may not view Darby Allin as a draw yet, they have no issue believing he can hang with a star like Jon Moxley.
    That's a whole lot of assumptions. You say these are facts, but there are no facts except the numbers. There are plenty of reasons one show might draw more viewers than another, and to claim that it means the size didn't matter is ridiculous.

    No one has claimed that smaller guys can't get over or draw. All that's been said is that size can also be a factor, and it's one that's purposely ignored by online fans, and that it adds to credibility. Plenty of ways people can be credible or over, but size is one of them. And it's one that will always connect.
    Last edited by PEN15v2; 11-22-2019 at 12:50 PM.

  36. #316
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    AEW not having more big guys isn't a big problem for me but I really wish they had signed Ace Romero when they had the chance. There are a few other good big guys still out there, so we'll see. I think Josh Briggs is potentially a good candidate.

    Your mileage may vary, but I think everything about the way Darby moves screams that he could kill you regardless of size or muscle. There's nobody out there right now whose physicality is quite like Darby Allin's is. The dive he did at the start of the Mox match looked, to me, like it would literally punch a hole in a normal person.

    Cult, as you know, I adored Mox/Darby, to the point where it was one of my favorite matches I've seen all years. I just mentioned how well Darby works for me, the way he comes after his opponent like every muscle fiber and nerve ending in his body is bent on either destroying or being destroyed by the end of the match is so gripping to me. Moxley has also consistently impressed me and this was no exception, I really enjoyed the way he reacted to Darby's attacks both offensively and defensively.

    But yeah, all my instincts point me towards Darby Allin as the breakout star of the year. Here's a guy who was relatively unknown six months ago and now he can be positioned in top matches without anyone blinking an eye. Great stuff.

  37. #317
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    The problem - for the fan with a sporting perspective - is that if you've got one guy who is very small competing for your top title, then it looks like they've stepped up and you can maybe, if you tell the story right, pass them off as if they are fighting against bigger guys on equal terms. The trouble is that you can't overdo that, because if you have lots of guys stepping up then all of a sudden the effect is just that your heavyweights just don't look elite. A good big guy beats a good little guy, and if there are lots of little guys beating your big guys then the likelihood goes up, with each one, that the bigger guys just aren't very good. They couldn't be, or they'd beat the smaller guys, 9/10.

    Similarly, if you've got a whole load of guys running around and your whole roster is small, it just looks like you've got a bunch of guys that any decent group of heavyweights could come in and clean the floor with. It's also the same principle why, unless there's an obvious mitigating factor, not looking like a reasonable athlete and going fairly evenly with your top guys will hurt 'em.

    It's really why the 'they did it with Mysterio' argument doesn't work, whether he was a success or not. The point isn't that having done it with Mysterio anyone can do it with similar sized guys, it's that having done it with Mysterio you probably can't do it again for a generation.

    I don't think Allin's problem (if he has one) is going to be size exactly, but depending on how you try to counter that, your tactics in-ring can run you into problems with sporting fans of a whole different order. You mention a dive, and I'm not sure a style that can easily be read as self-destructive is going to mitigate that. But that's a whole other question, and much like the size thing, it's not one that's going to hold him back with the people who are already watching, most of whom seem to be picking up what he's putting down.

    "The worst moron is the one too stupid to realise they're a moron."

  38. #318
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    I know this is the AEW thread, but if you watched Smackdown last night you saw 2 distinct times where size mattered. I am not commenting on the show, just these two specific instances.

    1. When they opened the show with the Women's Captain's match. You clearly saw how Rhea Ripley's size mattered. She matched up with Charlotte, who is the biggest woman on the roster. Yes you saw that Ripley is still green in some areas, but her size and strength matched with Charlotte.

    And

    2. During the brawl at the end, when Keith Lee entered the ring alone and the Strowman came into the ring and they stared each other down. The crowd popped hard for their confrontation and it was because of their size.

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    Also, the time I came home and caught my GF with a BBC. Apparently size mattered then as well.

  40. #320
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    Size! SIZE! SIZE!!!!!


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