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  1. #321
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    Quote Originally Posted by comfortablynumb View Post
    Yeah that was a huge bummer when I read that. That cliffhanger between episodes 3 and 4 will be HUGE.

    As for last night, I'm surprised they killed off XXXXXXXX so soon.
    I ainít buying it for a second.

    Spoilersspoilersspoilersspoilersblahblahblah






















    Something will happen to reset that. When the proper time comes, you can bet heís getting an RDJ style sendoff a la End Game. At the least... Digg and/or Roy will be there to witness Ollieís final sacrifice.

  2. #322
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    I'm not so sure that they will bring XXXXXXXX back. The Monitor even said that is not how I saw his death, and in the Aftershow Marc Guggenheim was hinting at major events still to take place, and spoilers for other people. But he did not even imply that this may not be the last of XXXXXXXXX.

    Because when Kevin Smith asked Marc Guggenheim about if 'someone is going to be holding a lifeless Supergirl', Supergirl's producer and Guggenheim both did that coy 'I don't know, we will have to wait and see'. Which implies that while Supergirl may not die, she will probably be very close to death and Superman will be holding her in that iconic pose.

    a41b18172bd650167204ace69600479b.jpg

  3. #323
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powder View Post
    I'm not so sure that they will bring XXXXXXXX back. The Monitor even said that is not how I saw his death, and in the Aftershow Marc Guggenheim was hinting at major events still to take place, and spoilers for other people. But he did not even imply that this may not be the last of XXXXXXXXX.
    Of course he wouldnít imply anything. Why would he potentially give spoilers to a huge cliffhanger in the first episode of a five episode event literally minutes after it happened?

  4. #324
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    Because they gave some spoilers out. Yes no where nearly the impact of other things, but they were hinting at Supergirl being in the iconic pose, where she died.


    SPOILERS.....SPOILERS....






    But I know that we want something better, but how noble the death, when the sacrifice saved 1.5 billion people, and he had the moment with his daughter, and he was able to tell Barry that he was the best of us.

    His death is as honorable as it gets, and he will still be in the 4 remaining episodes, but as other versions of himself, and in flashbacks. AND I can completely see the last 10-15 minutes of episode 5 being all about the tribute and send off of Ollie.

  5. #325
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    Yaddayaddayaddaspoilersandsuch








    Yes, his death was honorable. However, it wasnít impactful as shown. He runs out of arrows and gets knocked around a few times and then heís transported to his deathbed. All of this takes place in the span of 30 seconds. Weíre talking about the guy that this entire universe has been built on since day 1. Thereís no way heís essentially dying off screen like that. Even though this is a comic book show, itís also a CW show... and theyíre all about the emotions. Hell- both Laurel and Quentin had more emotional/impactful death scenes. The same could be said for Moira. Even when Raís kicked Oliver off the mountain in season 3, it had more impact. Somehow Oliver will be back for the final battle. Not in flashbacks or alternate earth versions, but the real Oliver weíve been watching since the beginning.

  6. #326
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    Maybe....we will wait and see.

  7. #327
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    Forget it...I'm tired of the spoilers yada yada yada. Either you watched or you didn't.

    So you were right. Oliie is back, but not completely back yet. And last night's episode had lots of fan service, but nothing really to move the overall plot forward. It has lots of fun and nice cameos and Easter Eggs, but not much plot development.

    But they also made some weird choices. When we got to Smallville, the articles on the wall were written by Lois Lane in Superman the Movie, and Welling's Clark is heavily implied that he is the Superman from Superman II as he gave up his powers to have a family. Then when they went to Routh's Superman it is clear that he is the Superman from Kingdom Come, but then he says that this was not the first time he fought himself, implying that he is the Superman from Superman III. Yes the writers put Eggs in the episode for the fans, but they implied that 2 different Supermen are the Superman from the Donner franchise.

    They also blew it in the opening credits when they said that 'Special Guest Star" Tom Welling, Kevin Conroy...etc...they should have waited for those credits to not spoil who was showing up.

  8. #328
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    Those credits pretty much confirmed Ollie was being brought back. As soon as I saw Matt Ryan, I thought ďWhy do they need Constantine around?Ē Itís not how I thought it would happen, though... I thought they would go the cheap route and have Barry snap and time travel a la the ending of season 2 of Flash. And I, too, was confused about how they seemingly flip flopped the two Supermen and which one was actually supposed to be the Christopher Reeves version.

  9. #329
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    I just hope, really hope that tonight's episode is a monumental episode. They are having a month long wait until Jan 14 when they conclude via Arrow and Legends. So tonight MUST be more than filler and fan service like last night was.

  10. #330
    Routh's Superman film did not go well and it's a shame he took a lot of the blame. The plot was horrendous.

    Watching Routh stand in his suit next to the clown they use from Supergirl (I don't watch Supergirl unless it's part of a crossover) really makes Routh stand out. He really does nail how Superman should look, stand and act. His Clark Kent was great too. He's like Reeves.

  11. #331
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    Routh is a perfect clumsy Clark Kent, and his take on Ray Palmer is clearly just his version of Clark but as Palmer. And you are right in that his presence as Superman is impressive. He is in shape, but the suit was clearly padded to make him look even bigger.

    I do not hate the Superman from Supergirl, except that he is too short. I do not blame him, it is the writers and director's fault. They make him to non-Supermany and he is still Clark while in the Suit. Superman commands respect and is the entire room when he is around, and Routh in the suit does that, but Tyler Hoechlin does not, and that is because he was directed to do so (by the directors). Welling even filled up the field he was standing in last night when facing off with Luthor while in red plaid.

    But they are having a spin off show called Superman and Lois, which is why the Arrowverse Superman and Lois Lane have prominent roles in Crisis to make them central figures to help with the spin off.


    EDIT: Also when Routh said that Jonathan looked like his son Jason. This confirms that Routh's SM is also the SM from Superman Returns not just Kingdom Come, where his son was Lois' son that she 'had" with Richard White (Perry's son). Somewhere between SR and Crisis, they must have exposed that Jason was really Superman's son.
    Last edited by Powder; 12-10-2019 at 11:12 AM.

  12. #332
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powder View Post
    I just hope, really hope that tonight's episode is a monumental episode. They are having a month long wait until Jan 14 when they conclude via Arrow and Legends. So tonight MUST be more than filler and fan service like last night was.
    Show opens with Constantine restoring Ollieís soul in the opening scene, and then the next 42ish minutes are Ollie brooding and pouting about how dangerous the pits are and how he was supposed to die to save the multiverse and Sara and Mia ruined that. Then Digg shows up and bitch slaps him, tells him to suit up, Ollie looks up with that look of determination on his face and the credits roll.

  13. #333
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    Quote Originally Posted by meandi View Post
    Show opens with Constantine restoring Ollie’s soul in the opening scene, and then the next 42ish minutes are Ollie brooding and pouting about how dangerous the pits are and how he was supposed to die to save the multiverse and Sara and Mia ruined that. Then Digg shows up and bitch slaps him, tells him to suit up, Ollie looks up with that look of determination on his face and the credits roll.
    So basically every Arrow episode from seasons 3-7?


    EDIT: I am still hoping that rumors are true and we get a Nicholas Cage in his Superman suit cameo. And I would mark the fuck out if they had Bale and/or Affleck in a cameo.
    Last edited by Powder; 12-10-2019 at 11:17 AM.

  14. #334
    There's a big lack of Diggle in this crossover. Don't know why but he might be my favorite character in the whole Arrowverse.

    I haven't heard the Cage rumor but that would be pretty sweet. Seems like there's a not a role he doesn't turn down so you never know.
    Last edited by comfortablynumb; 12-10-2019 at 11:23 AM.

  15. #335
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powder View Post
    So basically every Arrow episode from seasons 3?
    Yeah, pretty much. Consistency and what-not, ya know?

    In all seriousness, I could see a lot of the episode (maybe not tonightís in particular) being focused on Ollie and his brooding and questioning the Monitorís supposed vision, only for the Monitor say some cheesy shit like ďOliver Queen did die. You, however, have become someone else... something else.Ē

  16. #336
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    Quote Originally Posted by comfortablynumb View Post
    Seems like there's a not a role he doesn't turn down so you never know.
    There is a reason for this, and that is that he has some pretty serious IRS tax issues and owes a shit load of money to them, so he takes almost any role just to get money to pay off his debt.

    Quote Originally Posted by meandi View Post
    In all seriousness, I could see a lot of the episode (maybe not tonight’s in particular) being focused on Ollie and his brooding and questioning the Monitor’s supposed vision, only for the Monitor say some cheesy shit like “Oliver Queen did die. You, however, have become someone else... something else.”
    God I hope not. I hope that they address Ollie's soul coming back, he broods, then literally everyone else says to him: Stop your bitching, we only have less than 5 hours to fix this shit so, yes, we brought you back because we need your help. So shut the fuck up and move on. Bitch about it IF we survive.
    Last edited by Powder; 12-10-2019 at 11:46 AM.

  17. #337
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    I was talking to a buddy a while back about the crossover and Arrow in general, and I posited the theory that Oliver survives this ordeal. And I believe that originally they were going to kill him and give him this epic scene like Iron Man in End Game but they called an audible because of that scene in End Game and decided they didnít want it being so similar which is what lead to this fake out now.

  18. #338
    Quote Originally Posted by Powder View Post
    There is a reason for this, and that is that he has some pretty serious IRS tax issues and owes a shit load of money to them, so he takes almost any role just to get money to pay off his debt.
    Oh I know. He's been forced to sell a lot of his comic collection too. It was massive.

  19. #339
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    Quote Originally Posted by meandi View Post
    I was talking to a buddy a while back about the crossover and Arrow in general, and I posited the theory that Oliver survives this ordeal. And I believe that originally they were going to kill him and give him this epic scene like Iron Man in End Game but they called an audible because of that scene in End Game and decided they didn’t want it being so similar which is what lead to this fake out now.
    However Arrow is confirmed to end after Crisis, and in the flash forwards, Oliver is clearly dead. I know the plan is to retcon the entire Arrowverse once Crisis is over, like how Earth-38 will now be a part of Earth-1, as well as every other Earth, like they did in the comics. (With the exception of Earth-9, as Titans is conformed for season 3, and how do they have the Titans as part of the Arrowverse continuity? I mean I guess they kind of could)

    BUUUT, the Monitor said that one of them (Ollie, Barry, Kara) had to die, and technically Oliver did die...soooo......

    But the past 2 seasons of Arrow focused on the flash forward where Oliver is dead and this season was about Oliver accepting his fate and getting the chance to say goodbye to William and being able to know Mia and say goodbye to her. The Monitor allowed Oliver to tie up his loose ends. What would be the point of both of the seasons if they are just going to retcon them out of existence?

    Oliver will have to have some bigger death or at least vanish into something like Barry did in the book as he disappeared into the Speed Force and was gone for years. Yes Flash already did that story, but Oliver can maybe be a part of the source wall? Or become a Guardian of Oa? Something where he has to leave, and be considered dead.
    Last edited by Powder; 12-10-2019 at 12:06 PM.

  20. #340
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    I donít think the flash forwards confirmed Oliver was dead... just gone and assumed dead. He will leave, but I have a feeling it will be in some sort of guardian roll. Whatís the DC version of Uatu The Watcher? Maybe something like that.

    As far as the past two seasons focusing on Ollie accepting his fate and preparing for death... Arrow has shown time and again to be a big fan of the swerve. Plus, Flash has already established that even though you see an event in the future, it can be changed. Iris being killed by Savitar being the primary example.

    Also, I donít think Barry dies. I have a feeling they use the easy cop out of Monitor saying ďFlash must dieĒ, and they kill off Jay Garrick. What I would like to see is for them to kill Kara and we get that iconic shot you want, and then do a version of Reign Of The Supermen using her instead. That could be cool if done right.
    Last edited by meandi; 12-10-2019 at 12:25 PM.

  21. #341
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    Quote Originally Posted by meandi View Post
    I donít think the flash forwards confirmed Oliver was dead... just gone and assumed dead. He will leave, but I have a feeling it will be in some sort of guardian roll. Whatís the DC version of Uatu The Watcher? Maybe something like that.

    As far as the past two seasons focusing on Ollie accepting his fate and preparing for death... Arrow has shown time and again to be a big fan of the swerve. Plus, Flash has already established that even though you see an event in the future, it can be changed. Iris being killed by Savitar being the primary example.
    This....

    Quote Originally Posted by Powder View Post
    Oliver will have to have some bigger death or at least vanish into something like Barry did in the book as he disappeared into the Speed Force and was gone for years. Yes Flash already did that story, but Oliver can maybe be a part of the source wall? Or become a Guardian of Oa? Something where he has to leave, and be considered dead.

  22. #342
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    Check my edit...

  23. #343
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    Since the Arrowverse is having a Superman and Lois series, if they were going to have a Reign of the Superman, it would have to be there....but they already used the Death of Superman shot last night on the billboard so I do not know how to do that. But is should not be in Supergirl.

    And Kara does not have to die to get the shot. She could be severely wounded and near death to get the shot of Superman holding her.

    But since the Crisis is going to retcon the verse, then why not combine Flashpoint AND Crisis into 1? When Flash tackled Flashpoint they did talk about and address some of the changes that happened as a result of Barry changing time, but they never addressed the entire universe existing as one larger universe. Like DC, Vertigo and Wildstorm now being canon to each other. So if Flash has to die as you and the Monitor state, it can be Jay Garrack or Alan Scott and not Barry since all Flashes would then be part of the same Earth.

    Hopefully Crisis kills off some characters, and streamlines the series. I am getting really tired of different Wellses constantly coming. Streamline them and merge Earth2 with Earth1 (which should happen) and have that Wells back with his daughter Jesse Quick, and then you should also bring back Wally West. Where the hell is he anyway?


    BUT they are really screwing with the timeline. Kara and Kate keep talking about when they met last year and how Kate saved them and helped them. But in Batwoman we got her origin and it is heavily implied that this is less than a year into her since taking up the mantle. And when harbinger plucked her from E1 she was chasing down Bunnies, and that is current timeline. So how did Kate Kane help in Elseworlds last year, when she wasn't Batwoman yet?
    Last edited by Powder; 12-10-2019 at 12:44 PM.

  24. #344
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    Last I remember, Wally was off having adventures with the Legends. (I think that scene where he was talking to Joe about it was sometime last season on Flash) Canít streamline Earth-1 and 2 anymore since Earth-2 was already destroyed in the first episode of Arrow this season. Tom Cavanagh is the best thing on Flash each season, and I always greatly anticipate how heís going to tweak the Wells character, so if they could figure out a way to keep that being a thing, Iíd really appreciate it. If anybody needs to be killed off from that show, it needs to be Kaitlyn. Danielle Panabaker is not a good actress, and her fight/action scenes when sheís Killer Frost are brutally bad. I donít even need to see her death on screen... it can be off screen and get approximately 3 or 4 lines of dialogue about it, and then everybody moves on like nothing happened and Iíd be totally okay with that.

    Edit...
    Your question about Batwoman is literally the exact same thing I asked yesterday.
    Last edited by meandi; 12-10-2019 at 12:50 PM.

  25. #345
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    Wally left the Legends and came back for a few episodes of Flash and was in a relationship with Jesse Quick. Then when she dumped him he left again. But I'm surprised that with Crisis they didn't bring him back for a short run.

    But I am still hopeful that tonight's episode is a monster episode, and not more of the filler, let's just have cameos, that was last night.

    And I completely forgot you asked that. I looked back and you did.

  26. #346
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    After a bit of research, it appears the first 4 episodes of Batwoman take place before Elseworlds, although I couldnít find out exactly how long before. (One theory explaining why Barry and Oliver were so surprised by her presence during that crossover was because she was so early in her journey, word of Batwoman hadnít yet become widespread enough for her to be on Barry or Ollieís radar.) Apparently episode 5 picks up two weeks after Elseworlds and makes mention of it. I havenít been able to determine how much, if any, of a time jump happens during episodes 6-8. Itís also been speculated that Kateís appearance in Crisis will essentially be a one shot, if you will, and will have no bearing on the current storyline of season 1 of Batwoman. (Perhaps the rest of that season plays out in its own timeframe for now and picks up after Crisis later down the road? Would seem a bit confusing since all the rest of the shows will probably be dealing with the effects of Crisis whilst continuing their current seasons.)

  27. #347
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    That clears that up, and I understand why they want to continue the story on Batwoman with Alice/Beth and they should. But if the speculated retcon of the Arrowverse happens after Crisis ends, then there should be some altering to the Batwoman continuity. That does not mean that they have to completely change anything, but they can use it to maybe have Kate and Beth’s mom be back but from another Earth. Kara did give Kate the picture of Beth and her where Beth didn’t die, so what would stop them from having mom from another Earth?

    There should be some altering, but not completely changing the rhetoric.
    Last edited by Powder; 12-10-2019 at 03:22 PM.

  28. #348
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powder View Post
    That does not mean that they have to completely change anything, but they can use it to maybe have Kate and Beth’s mom be back but from another Earth. Kara did give Kate the picture of Beth and her where Beth didn’t die, so what would stop them from having mom from another Earth?

    Please, no. Thatís been done to death already. Jay Garrick and Barry (while Jay obviously isnít a father of Barry, Barry does see him as a father figure based just on his face)... Quentin and Black SirenCanary... Hell, even Cisco and the various incarnations of Wells. (Again... not an actual father, but father figure/mentor)

  29. #349
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    Episode 3 is in the books and while it had a ton of stuff, it also was another place holder until the last 5 minutes.

    I get that the Arrowverse is built on relationships, but this Crisis crossover needs to be more action. I also cannot stand when they go full meta and call it a crossover.

    But the great points of the show:

    • E-90 Flash sacrifices himself for E-1 Flash (which I called since before this event even took place)
    • Jim Corrigan/The Spectre getting introduced - and Oliver will become the new Spectre - nice way to keep him 'alive' and be able to guest star on future episodes of Flash, Supergirl, Batwoman, Black Lightning, and Star Girl
    • Ryan Choi - the third Atom
    • Jon Cryer - still killing it as Lex Luthor
    • Lucifer and Birds of prey cameos
    • Routh as Superman - he really needs either his own show or at least another shot at a movie
    • Vanishing Point

  30. #350
    I have to agree about the relationships and I blame the Flash. The Flash spends more time discussing his feelings than fighting bad guys on his show. The show should really be called Flash and Friends.

  31. #351
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    Lucifer Fucking Morningstar... I didnít even realize that show was a comic property when I started watching it last year. I really want a Lucifer/Constantine buddy cop spin-off now.

    With all the Earths now destroyed, where do we go from here? Is there a way to take the Rebirth name and apply it to this universe?

  32. #352
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    Well, there will not be a rebirth. Since they are, for the most part, following the Crisis plot, they will end up streamlining all the shows into 1 Earth. Black Lightning was finally brought into the Arrowverse etc. But what will happen is somehow they will revive a lot of the population and all of the (now) Earth-1 heroes and casts and have them all on 1 Earth, like they did with Crisis. Afterall, they was the entire point of Crisis, to clean up the entire DCU in 1985.

    There was too much parallel universes, and a JSA and a JLA, and what is werid, but true, the first Superman from Action Comics #1 turned out to be the Superman from Earth-2 who ended up being sent with Lois and Superboy Prime to that paradise subpocket dimension.

    Speaking of which, why hasn't Superboy Prime been introduced or Alexander Luthor? They were two of the key figures in the original Crisis. And SB Prime ends up becoming the villain of Infinite Crisis and a major baddie in the DCU, and the reason that Jason Todd came back to life.


    But yes, Lucifer Morningstar and the show is based upon the Sandman comic by Neil Gaiman.
    Last edited by Powder; 12-11-2019 at 10:49 AM.

  33. #353
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    Didnít know Lucifer was based on Sandman. Thatís something Iíve always meant to go and check out ever since seeing Raven first pop up in WCW wearing a Sandman shirt. (I honestly thought that shirt was a nod to his feud with Sandman in ECW before I learned what it really was.)

  34. #354
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    Not in any way a direct translation of Sandman, but more inspired by the character Lucifer Morningstar who was a supporting character in Sandman, who then had a spin off comic. and if memory serves, Constantine did crossover into the Sandman books from time to time.

    I read about the first few books of Sandman, and it just wasn't for me. But give it a shot. if you want more of who LM is, get the Lucifer comic.
    Last edited by Powder; 12-11-2019 at 10:50 AM.

  35. #355
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    I just figured out whatís been bothering me about Brandon Routh being Superman again, and it has nothing to do with his portrayal or anything. Heís clearly the Christopher Reeves version as evidenced from Lois Laneís ďI Spent The Night With SupermanĒ article framed on his wall. And thatís fine and dandy since Superman Returns was a direct sequel to those original films. However, he drops the line about fighting himself once before which is a clear nod to Superman III, yet when Returns was released, it was billed as a direct sequel to Superman II essentially ignoring III and IV and wiping them out of canon due to how poorly received those movies were when they came out. So why give a wink-wink/nudge-nudge to a movie that doesnít technically exist in that universe?

  36. #356
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    You are mistaken.

    Both articles entitled: “Caped Wonder Stuns City” and “I Spent the Night With Superman.” were from Superman: The Movie, and both were on Tom Welling's wall in Smallville. And that Superman is supposed to be the Superman after Superman II where he apparently gave up his powers once again after defeating Zod, Non, and Ursa.

    The article on Routh's office wall was Planet Attacked, with a green gas around the building, and Routh even tells the story of how a reject or something from Gotham, clearly implying it was the Joker who killed them all. (I cannot remember the exact wording that he said)


    BUUUUT, you are completely correct in that if Routh is supposed to be a combination of the Donnor-verse Superman AND the Mark Waid Kingdom Come Superman, then he still would not have fought himself previously as Returns makes III and IV no longer canon.
    Last edited by Powder; 12-11-2019 at 12:15 PM.

  37. #357
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    Shit. And here I was about to ramble on about fact checking before making references about things, and I didnít even fully check facts myself. My point still stands, though... Iím sure there was a room full of interns the writers couldíve used to check before filming in order to avoid these consistencies. And that brings me to my main question- which is worse? The lazy writing/fact checking or those of us that canít just simply enjoy what weíre being given instead of picking everything apart?

  38. #358
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    Well I think it is a combination.

    If you have been watching Crisis Aftermath, Kevin Smith asked Marc Guggenheim about all of the references, and Guggenheim said that the writers and producers had pow wows about what references they wanted in the shows, and they had a long list and got what they could. I think Guggenheim's direct quote was 'Well if we have 100 references that we want to include, and we only get 50 of them, we still have 50 references!'.

    So I think the writers were trying to get as much of the Easter Eggs/references into the crossover that they sometimes bent the rules to accommodate that, so it is some, lazy writing, but not completely. But then the writers and producers had to know that fanboys out there, like us, and many, many more would know and get all of these references, and pick apart the ones that do not make the most sense. Like the dual Donner-verse Supermen.

    But as much as little things like this get to us, we are also enjoying what we are watching.

  39. #359
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    Everyone seen the Wonder Woman 84 trailer? Looks like a lot of hammy fun to me - very excited to check it out! That eagle armour didn't look great though. Had Flash Gordon vibes to it, and while I'll champion Flash Gordon as a cheesy guilty pleasure it's not exactly a film I'm eager to see other films demonstrate the spirit of, even if by accident....

  40. #360
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    Haven't seen the trailer for it yet, but seen they've got a release date of June.

    Before that, there's Birds of Prey out in around a month's time.

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