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Thread: Charlotte Flair

  1. #1
    Member #25 SirSam's Avatar
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    Charlotte Flair

    I was listening to Clive's podcast a few days ago and his co-host Ricky said this:

    "When she is done, Charlotte Flair will mean as much to women's wrestling as her Dad does to men's"

    She has gone on the backburner since beating Asuka at Mania but I thought it was an interesting observation and one the WWE would certainly want to push. What do you guys think?



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  2. #2
    Administrator Prime Time's Avatar
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    Charlotte's blown hot and cold in the WWE so far. I wonder if it's a mistake to downplay her the way they are at the moment because she went completely off the boil for a while there, and they'd gotten her back to being pretty significant again. If she ends up back in the same kind of rut she was before winning the title back from Nattie then I'd definitely call it a blunder.

    "The worst moron is the one too stupid to realise they're a moron."

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    Feeling Minnesota Powder's Avatar
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    I think that Ricky may be correct. Charlotte is clearly the best all around woman on the roster. I would like to think that Ruby Riott can elevate herself, or at least the company does to be the foil to Charlotte. Every main star has their counterpart.

    Hogan had Piper
    Flair had Dusty and then Sting
    Austin had Rocky and vice versa
    Cena had Orton and Edge
    Bryan has The Miz
    Hart had HBK

    Charlotte needs someone, I hope its Riott, as she is the best candidate on the current roster.

  4. #4

    Smile

    I agree. She's been involved w/ several of the firsts since the Revolution began. She may have another two major firsts if WWE does go w/ the reported Rousey-Flair main event at WM35 - first woman to main event WM and also the first child of a past WM headliner to headline WM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Powder
    I think that Ricky may be correct. Charlotte is clearly the best all around woman on the roster. I would like to think that Ruby Riott can elevate herself, or at least the company does to be the foil to Charlotte. Every main star has their counterpart.

    Hogan had Piper
    Flair had Dusty and then Sting
    Austin had Rocky and vice versa
    Cena had Orton and Edge
    Bryan has The Miz
    Hart had HBK

    Charlotte needs someone, I hope its Riott, as she is the best candidate on the current roster.
    Not a bad choice. Quite a few praised her performance against Charlotte at Fastlane.

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  5. #5
    The Brain
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    I love Charlotte, but I feel like that quote seriously underplays just how meaningful Ric was to wrestling in general. He's no less than the consensus pick for the best performer of all time. I think it'll be years before we can even assess if Charlotte begins to approach the bar set by her dad.

  6. #6
    Administrator Prime Time's Avatar
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    To be fair, women's wrestling is so less well established that to "mean as much to women's wrestling as her Dad does to men's" could potentially require a much less successful performer.

    "The worst moron is the one too stupid to realise they're a moron."

  7. #7
    The Brain
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    Perhaps in America, but with a statement that broad you also have to consider that in Japan there's a history of women's wrestling being a huge draw in the 80s and 90s, as well as being much more critically acclaimed than what we've seen so far in WWE. I guess maybe some will regard that as a technicality but at best it feels like Charlotte may be able to break new ground regionally, instead of worldwide, unlike her Dad who set the standard in his prime across the whole world.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by mizfan
    Perhaps in America, but with a statement that broad you also have to consider that in Japan there's a history of women's wrestling being a huge draw in the 80s and 90s, as well as being much more critically acclaimed than what we've seen so far in WWE. I guess maybe some will regard that as a technicality but at best it feels like Charlotte may be able to break new ground regionally, instead of worldwide, unlike her Dad who set the standard in his prime across the whole world.
    They would draw to the tune of 30-40K to the Tokyo Dome. Quite impressive! Liked how WWE would bring in female talent from Japan such as Bull Nakano, Aja Kong, Jumping Bomb Angels and Crush Gals. Today they have Japanese women on the regular roster.

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    Full agreement with mizfan. I have always found Charlotte to be overrated; she's very good now, but the notions of her being the greatest of all time are so ridiculous, and so obviously just WWE PR. As an in ring worker, she is arguably not even the best in the WWE. She's not appreciably better than Asuka, or Becky, or Sasha. And then when you compare her to other promotions or all time greats like Minami Toyota*, the comparisons become even more absurd. The same people who tout her as the GOAT are the ones who uncritically swallowed the whole 'Shawn Michaels is the GOAT' line because WWE's announcers repeated it ad nauseum for over a decade and had those slick video packages and suddenly everyone who only watches WWE (or grew up on the 90's WWF) started believing it.

    *Toyota was so good that I have seen serious wrestling critics put her in the very top elite category of workers and as being as good as any male wrestler. Can anyone honestly say that about Charlotte?

    Another comparison that comes to mind is how these days now that Rollins has been on fire, people have started proclaiming him to be the best worker in the world, and I'm like 'have you even seen Okada or Omega?' I'm not bashing on WWE fans, but if you *only* watch WWE, you really shouldn't be pontificating on who the best in the world is.
    Last edited by Alan; 05-16-2018 at 03:31 PM.

  10. #10
    The Brain
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    ^Talking up Manami Toyota and calling out HBK's questionable GOAT status? I like you, guy.

  11. #11
    Administrator Prime Time's Avatar
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    Good response Mizzie, without realising I'd been just thinking about it in American terms. Japan does change the game.

    "The worst moron is the one too stupid to realise they're a moron."

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    Quote Originally Posted by mizfan View Post
    ^Talking up Manami Toyota and calling out HBK's questionable GOAT status? I like you, guy.
    It's Allystare, just with a new username (or an old one I couldn't get the last time we had a board shuffle).

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    Charlotte is an awful babyface. I can't consider someone that great of a worker if they can't possibly work face.. Not to say just being a great heel isn't important skill but doing both sets people apart. Charlotte hasn't been able to draw sympathy, ever in my opinion. Her matches have only been good when she's in there with someone better than her as a performer. She can't raise anybody else's performance. Unlike a Shawn Michaels.

    Even if I think she's gotten better recently, the notion that Charlotte is the best WWE women's wrestler is down right laughable.

  14. #14
    The Brain
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    Thinking back, I have generally preferred Charlotte as a heel, so I think that's fair to say at least. I'm still high on Charlotte, but she's not exactly flawless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    It's Allystare, just with a new username (or an old one I couldn't get the last time we had a board shuffle).
    Ah, nice! Good to see you back!

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    I don't know, I actually think there are better women on the roster at both wrestling - Becky, Ruby, Asuka - and connecting with the crowd - Sasha, Bayley, Asuka (again) - than Charlotte.

    I'd actually say that Asuka should be her continued nemesis throughout their careers, in a Trish/Lita style. To be honest, I think there's a lot of money to be made with those two going head to head, and if WWE play their cards right they could actually build a big event around that face off as the main event rather than rely on the 'crossover appeal' of a Rousey or similar to be in the opposite corner to either one of them.

    90% of my issue with the way the WWE has handled the Horsewomen from NXT is that they burnt through them all having matches against each other - or at least 3/4 of them having matches against each other - way to quickly on Raw. With Becky isolated on Smackdown but not really being on top there, and probably having a reduced role to play there now that Charlotte and Asuka are on the brand and observedly above her in WWE's mind, we're probably missing out - possibly will completely miss out - on any competitive Charlotte/Sasha/Bayley vs Becky matches now and in the future. I'd maintain the Becky is the best wrestler of the four, too, so it's kind of a shame if she doesn't get a chance to have competitive matches with those three and the likes of Asuka.

    I think you could easily say that when she's done Charlotte will mean as much to WWE's idea of women's wrestling as her dad does to WWE's idea of men's wrestling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oliver View Post

    I think you could easily say that when she's done Charlotte will mean as much to WWE's idea of women's wrestling as her dad does to WWE's idea of men's wrestling.
    Ric Flair doesn't mean what they want Charlotte to mean in WWE's idea of wrestling though. That spot, in WWE canon, belongs to HBK.

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    That's true, actually.

    I'm actually they've moved on a bit from Charlotte - assuming she doesn't end up winning MitB and getting a revenge cash in on Carmella, that is - as champion. I think stepping back a step with her will serve her well in the long run - she's pretty much been the focus of the women's side of things since the moment she was called up, and I can imagine people getting a little tired of it.

    I don't imagine it will last past the end of summer - and with Asuka challenging Carmella I can see her winning and taking the title to a Summerslam rematch with Flair - but it will be good to have them focus elsewhere for a bit.

  18. #18
    As it should be. Macho Mourn's Avatar
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    ^ Yeah. They're gonna switch the story this time, and allow Charlote to start the slide to heel.

    I have Charlotte winning the RR in January. Her and Rousey's a lock next year.

    “Stoop to your own level. Your nature. Trust yourself. And most importantly... You have to learn what laws are really laws and not… Oppression."

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Macho Mourn
    ^ Yeah. They're gonna switch the story this time, and allow Charlote to start the slide to heel.

    I have Charlotte winning the RR in January. Her and Rousey's a lock next year.
    A heel Charlotte winning the Rumble? Take my money.

    Twitter: @libsuperstar

  20. #20
    Administrator Prime Time's Avatar
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    It's interesting that everyone in here so far says they prefer her as a heel to babyface, when to look at her career to date she's gotten over far more as a babyface, and most of the criticism that has been thrown her way has been while she's been working as a heel.

    I mean, the track record appears to be heel in NXT and didn't do much, turns babyface and becomes the biggest thing on the show (including becoming the female star of the company on call-up) turns heel and gets some of the worst reviews on the show for her promo work and ultimately falls back to a smaller position on the card, before turning babyface again and being built up enough to become the clear top talent again and ending Asuka's streak.

    I wouldn't want to say it was proof, exactly, but I do think even if it doesn't imply causation there's a definite correlation between her being in a babyface role and having success so far. Nor am I saying that just because the bulk of the audience seem to feel that way, that everyone has to go along with the same opinion. But it's interesting to me, nonetheless.

    "The worst moron is the one too stupid to realise they're a moron."

  21. #21
    Member #25 SirSam's Avatar
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    I really liked her as a face honestly, her moveset is naturally flashy and that lets her lean into it. I also didn't think she was that great on the mic as a heel, very hit or miss however things seem to be a bit easier for her as a face who just gets in there and kicks arse (at least that is how I feel).

    After all the stuff she went through last year I think she positioned herself well to be someone young girls can look up to. Anecdotally Doc said his daughter is obsessed with Charlotte.



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  22. #22
    The Brain
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    I know people didn't like it because mumble mumble something about feminism, but probably my favorite Charlotte is when Ric was managing her and interfering in matches. Granted I haven't always been watching her work closely but at the time I thought they made a great team and always had a blast watching them.

  23. #23
    Administrator Prime Time's Avatar
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    The problem as I saw it with the team with Flair was more the timing than the content. If they'd done a bunch of stuff clean or where Charlotte was her own 'dirtiest player in the game' early, and were running the two of them together subsequently, when their position on the roster is secured and the stories themselves are generally a lot less consciously 'women's revolution'-y, for the lack of a better term, then I think there'd have been a lot less made of it.

    The mistake people made was not in their argument about it, which seemed perfectly fair to me, but in that it clearly expects the WWE to be anything but tone deaf to these things. That is just setting yourself up for disappointment.



    Anyway, to newer stuff. Charlotte has dropped three of her last five singles matches and it seems like they are running some kind of 'how does she get back on track' kind of angle. These things need to be handled more carefully than they usually manage; but I'm never against them because they are the kind of stories that just make perfect sense in a sporting context, so I wish them well with it.

    "The worst moron is the one too stupid to realise they're a moron."

  24. #24
    Feeling Minnesota Powder's Avatar
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    I wouldn't worry about Charlotte. She has been the focus of the Women's division for so long, that she was at the risk of getting overexposed and people could have tired of her. Especially after beating Asuka at WM. Now the WWE is just waiting t build her back up so she can face Rousey at Mania.

  25. #25
    The Brain
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    I'm not a fan of losing streak storylines, they rarely seem to work out. I think they're too high on Charlotte to drop her far though, they absolutely love her.

    Was interested in the recent issue with Charlotte saying wrestling is dominated by men, and Stephanie correcting her to say it was that way, and not anymore. There's your "revolution" in a nutshell I guess.


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    Administrator Prime Time's Avatar
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    Charlotte getting some mainstream attention, featured in the ESPN Body 10 edition.

    "The worst moron is the one too stupid to realise they're a moron."

  27. #27
    Feeling Minnesota Powder's Avatar
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    I have the issue, she looks good. What I didn't realize is that she is 5'10" and 160lbs.

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    What exactly is the ESPN Body 10 and why are they all butt naked?

    Good for Charlotte, though. Probably just confirms that she's number one in the eyes of WWE.

  29. #29
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    It's their equivalent of the Sports Illustrated swimsuit edition, but the idea is to show athletes (in as diverse a range as possible) in the kind of light that shows the physical side of what they do. I think.

    "The worst moron is the one too stupid to realise they're a moron."

  30. #30
    Member #25 SirSam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powder View Post
    I have the issue, she looks good. What I didn't realize is that she is 5'10" and 160lbs.
    Bigger or smaller than you thought she would be?



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  31. #31
    Feeling Minnesota Powder's Avatar
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    Bigger, I thought she was about 5'7" and 140-145lbs.

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    Member #25 SirSam's Avatar
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    Interesting, that isn't actually that big at all but she absolutely towers over most of the other girls in the division.



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  33. #33
    Feeling Minnesota Powder's Avatar
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    The WWE usually exaggerates everyone's height and weight, like Kane and Taker being 7 footer, when they are more like 6'10", but Charlotte being actually 5'10". She is much taller than the rest of the division.

  34. #34
    Member #25 SirSam's Avatar
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    It is interesting to know that and use that comparison to get a proper read on the heights of some of the guys too.



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  35. #35
    Feeling Minnesota Powder's Avatar
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    Good point.

  36. #36
    Member #25 SirSam's Avatar
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    In the Mitb match I really liked how they teased the competition and tension between Charlotte and Becky. Hopefully they can make that into something, they are easily two of the most talented women in there and by all accounts are pretty close outside the ring too.

    Perhaps that could be Charlotte's first feud after she gets back?



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    I'd love Becky vs Charlotte. They had a pretty great singles match at the 2016 Rumble.

  38. #38
    The Brain
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    Unfortunately WWE doesn't seem to think much, if anything, of Becky, which is a damn shame. Would definitely love to see that change.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mizfan View Post
    Unfortunately WWE doesn't seem to think much, if anything, of Becky, which is a damn shame. Would definitely love to see that change.
    Here's a fun fact - Becky's last TV loss was on May 8th. She's even beaten Charlotte on Smackdown in that period. Aside from the MitB match she's unbeaten in nearly two months. I think WWE are warming her up for something.

    As for Charlotte, am I right that she's currently off healing up after surgery to fix her busted implant? I remember reading that they had to shoot the ESPN Body issue around that before, and Charlotte had had the injury before Mania and the Asuka match, then stuck around to drop the title, then insisted on working the European tour and, presumably, MitB before taking time off.

  40. #40
    The Brain
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    I could maybe see that? I did see she beat Charlotte last month, but I wasn't sure if anything actually came of it. The way WWE books, it could just be coincidence, but I like your optimism.

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