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  1. #41
    The Brain
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    I actually don't have a problem with that either. I think Jordan has a lot of potential, and a feud with an actual story attached will just prime Rollins even further to move back to the title picture before the end of the year (or maybe even lead up to a Rumble win).

  2. #42
    Senior Member 205 Clive's Avatar
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    Yes I'm a big fan of what they were doing with Jason Jordan before he ended up injured. That selfish and childish character clashed in a good way with Seth's moral high ground, and if WWE have a rarity of adhering to kayfave continuity, then I'd be all for JJ and Rollins butting heads once again.
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  3. #43
    The Brain
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    It feels like a given, unless they've totally given up on the Jason Jordan singles push. I don't know why they would have, unless they now think he's injury prone or something.

  4. #44
    Senior Member 205 Clive's Avatar
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    Well it looks like Elias will be the contender of choice in the short term anyway. I like Elias, but this still bums me out. I was really really looking forward to having Jordan involved in things by now. Oh well.
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  5. #45
    The Brain
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    Maybe more fuel to the idea that Jordan will come back to team with Gable? I could see the Rollins thing being held off until later. It'd be interesting if it ended up with Rollins & Ambrose against American Alpha down the line. Could be an ideal time for Ambrose to turn on Seth, too.

  6. #46
    Senior Member 205 Clive's Avatar
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    Oh my sweet sweet lord. That is some fantastic long term booking right there. The triangle of will he / won't he for Gable and Jordan vs Seth is intriguing enough. And if Dean does come to save the day, only for him to turn on Seth when all is said and done, that would be just so good.

    Somewhere, some time, I think 'Plan's radar just went into overdrive, and he'll know its origin when he sees the above post!
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  7. #47
    Member #25 SirSam's Avatar
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    Thank God for Seth. Thinking about those feuds is one of the few things keeping me optimistic about the WWE right now.



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  8. #48
    Senior Member 205 Clive's Avatar
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    Smackdown is doing OKAY. That's a big okay by the way. There are one or two things peaking my interest on Mondays (Ruby Riott and Chad Gable). But apart from them Seth is one of the only saving graces on Raw for me right now.

    Remember when half the internet wanted Seth to go to Smackdown as part of the Superstar Shakeup? Can you imagine how catastrophic that would have been for Raw now?
    Last edited by 205 Clive; 06-04-2018 at 05:46 AM.
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  9. #49
    The Brain
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    In fairness, nobody expected Raw to get shafted in the shakeup. Plus people wanted him to be world champion again, and I feel like he's got a better shot on SD because they have a champion that actually, you know, works for WWE.

  10. #50
    Senior Member 205 Clive's Avatar
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    There have been rumours that Seth will be the one to beat Brock at Summerslam.

    I try not to put too much stock in rumours, but with all the momentum he has garnered, as well as him being (as far as I'm concerned) thee #1 Babyface of the company, I think this is definitely the way to go.
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  11. #51
    Senior Member LWO4Life's Avatar
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    Actually, I like this idea a lot. Now, if they are smart enough to turn Roman heel, build a new "Corporation" with Roman as the center piece, and build to a feud with Vince trying to put the belt on Roman with Seth fighting off the heel factory, we have money.

  12. #52
    The Brain
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    I think it's reasonable to give Rollins another shot on the top, considering how his popularity has resurged recently. Anything to get it off Brock though, seriously!

  13. #53
    Feeling Minnesota Powder's Avatar
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    Rollins and Lesnar would also have a great match. Rollins is about the same size and capabilities of Styles and the match between those two last year was great.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by 205 Clive View Post
    There have been rumours that Seth will be the one to beat Brock at Summerslam.

    I try not to put too much stock in rumours, but with all the momentum he has garnered, as well as him being (as far as I'm concerned) thee #1 Babyface of the company, I think this is definitely the way to go.
    I'd be so into that.

    Their 2015 Battleground match was great (until the Taker ending, sadly) - Rollins with a real sense of urgency, Lesnar hurling him around...I could get really into that. It would be quite a lot like the Styles match, I imagine, in terms of layout, but that's certainly not a bad thing right now.

  15. #55
    Senior Member 205 Clive's Avatar
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    Yes that 2015 Battleground match definitely left that story without a full stop.

    Let's not forget the night after Rollins cashed in, Rollins landed on his feet from a German Suplex attempt by Brock. With a big factor in Seth's story these past few months being overcoming adversity, this reversal of one of Brock's signature moves could be a big selling point in the story if it ever happens.
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  16. #56
    So, IF the rumor of Seth Rollins taking the belt from Brock Lesner at Summerslam is true, does he drop the IC belt to Elias this weekend?

  17. #57
    Senior Member 205 Clive's Avatar
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    Well well well! That was certainly a surprise last night with Ziggler defeating Seth for the IC title.

    I'm quite shocked by it, but at the same time I'm not annoyed. For one, it could possibly pave the way for Rollins to enter the #1 contender match for the Universal Title at Extreme Rules. But also, although Drew McIntyre didn't win the title himself, I'm glad to see that there looks to have been, and will continue to be, a clear path/storyline for Drew upon his NXT Callup. I'm still of the mindset that NXT Callups with a purpose, rather than just because it's Mania season, bodes well for thr promoters.
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  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by 205 Clive
    Well well well! That was certainly a surprise last night with Ziggler defeating Seth for the IC title.

    I'm quite shocked by it, but at the same time I'm not annoyed. For one, it could possibly pave the way for Rollins to enter the #1 contender match for the Universal Title at Extreme Rules. But also, although Drew McIntyre didn't win the title himself, I'm glad to see that there looks to have been, and will continue to be, a clear path/storyline for Drew upon his NXT Callup. I'm still of the mindset that NXT Callups with a purpose, rather than just because it's Mania season, bodes well for thr promoters.
    Had a similar thought although not Extreme Rules.

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  19. #59
    Author of 101 WWE Matches To See Before You Die Samuel 'Plan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 205 Clive View Post
    Let's not forget the night after Rollins cashed in, Rollins landed on his feet from a German Suplex attempt by Brock.
    Yes! This! I have been banging on about this since literally the day it happened! Talk about a ready made story for a match right there, I was gutted when they didn't follow up on it at Battleground three years ago.

    I'm torn as to whether I want Seth to wrestle Brock or not. On the one hand, should Seth win, it would make for a hell of a compelling story. On the other, that feels like a massive if, and I absolutely don't want to see him become another sacrifice at the altar of WWE's obsession with Reigns / Lesnar, like Ambrose did.

  20. #60
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    I don't think Brock's next opponent is losing. I could see the case being made that maybe they do lose but wear down Brock, then Braun cashes in... but that's not really a face move for Braun.

    And once Brock loses, if he's still with the company, i see no reason to keep him so strong.. its been years at this point. he has to put people over... that could be Rollins

  21. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel 'Plan View Post
    Yes! This! I have been banging on about this since literally the day it happened! Talk about a ready made story for a match right there, I was gutted when they didn't follow up on it at Battleground three years ago.
    Add on to that - the Rumble triple threat with Brock, Cena, and Rollins - Rollins was rotating out of the German's, not a somersault but onto his shoulder blade rather than his neck. He was doing it to lessen the impact. It was a really small thing, but I noticed it! And it made that match better, and him look clever, too.

    I'd love Rollins vs Brock again.

  22. #62
    Author of 101 WWE Matches To See Before You Die Samuel 'Plan's Avatar
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    I watched Sting Vs. Vader from Great American Bash 1992 earlier for the first time and thoroughly enjoyed it. I mention it because it struck me as a very useful blueprint for a potential Rollins/Lesnar match....

    I also noted that WWE were plugging past interactions between the two on social media earlier too. It seems increasingly likely they might just go for it. And I don't know how to feel about that - excited or anxious.

  23. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel 'Plan View Post
    I watched Sting Vs. Vader from Great American Bash 1992 earlier for the first time and thoroughly enjoyed it. I mention it because it struck me as a very useful blueprint for a potential Rollins/Lesnar match....
    That's interesting, because Rollins is a much better worker than Sting, and it could be argued that it was Vader who carried Sting through that match (he was the only person in WCW getting those level of matches out of Sting aside from Ric Flair in those days).

  24. #64
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    Rollins is an objectively better athlete than Sting, but I'm not 100% sold that he's better at every facet of the game. Rollins can do a zillion moves, can fly around the ring, etc. but I still never find myself truly invested in his matches. Sting is really underrated in the sense that, while he was in incredible shape and was WCW's top babyface in the early 90s, whether it was against Vader, Rick Rude, Cactus Jack, or Flair, or Nikita Koloff, he could always draw sympathy and appear vulnerable and his matches had heat.

    Part of this is obviously personal preference, but with Rollins, I'm still not seeing "all the pieces." With Sting, while he may not have been as athletically gifted, I'd still give him the edge in terms of charisma and character. I'm hoping we eventually get there with Rollins, but right now, all I read is "The Next Triple H" and I'm not super interested.

  25. #65
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    Sting had a better character and charisma, but as a worker, Rollins is heads and shoulders above Sting, and in today's environment, that's no small advantage.

    Also, Sting's run in the early 90's in comparison to Flair was regarded as a disappointment and failure, in carrying the torch after Flair had passed it on to him. He failed to do the business that Flair did, never had the matches Flair had, and even as a promo was far worse. The fans did not take to him in the same way that they took to Flair, and as soon as Flair left/got fired because of Herd's idiocy, fans were clamoring for him.

    So I would definitely take issue with your view that Sting was the 'top babyface' of the 90s in WCW.

  26. #66
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    Sting needed the shit beaten out of him - or good wrestling beaten into him - to ever put on a good match. Muta, Cactus Jack, Vader - they all beat it into him. Flair was on a different level and could have had the matches he had with Sting in the late 80s and early 90s in his sleep, such was the level he was on.

    If you can name a single excellent Sting wrestling match without one of those four involved on the other side, I'll be surprised unless it's, like, WarGames or something.

    I hope they run with Rollins vs Lesnar, I really do.

  27. #67
    The Brain
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    There's a Regal match in '96 that I'd go to bat for, and the '91 tag match of course, but yeah, by and large agree with Ollie's assessment.

    Sting is definitely more charismatic than Rollins, Rollins is a much better in performer. Not sure who'd I give the edge too in terms of character, depends on when you look at them I guess.

  28. #68
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    As a character, I prefer Sting. But yeah, Seth as a in ring worker is miles better

  29. #69
    The Brain
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    I never thought surfer Sting really had much character, except to be a grinning doofus. Crow Sting is another story, but that changes a lot if we're talking about silent Sting in '97 or when he started talking and wrestling again, when he sort of just reverted to surfer mode but with the Crow look.

    Rollins has more layers going on but his character seems muddled to me. He's the architect, the kingslayer, he's crossfit Jesus, but what does it all mean? I feel like Plan could lay out a novel length post to tell me exactly how it all makes perfect sense, but I don't get a good grasp of who he is at a glance, so I guess Sting has that advantage over him character-wise.

  30. #70
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    My issue is i don't feel like Seth has a character at this point, all he has is catch phrases and buzzwords. His character right now is he wants to be the best wrestler on Raw. i've enjoyed Sting with the crow character moments, joker sting than anything Seth really did outside the ring.

  31. #71
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    He's the architect, the kingslayer, he's crossfit Jesus,
    I'm okay with crossfit Jesus, but 'kingslayer' is seriously cringey. And he hasn't been the 'architect' in 3 years.

  32. #72
    The Brain
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    Fair enough, but my general point still stands as even at the time I didn't really follow what it was supposed to mean. I got the general idea that he was meant to be the one planning things out for the Shield, but they also pushed the idea that it was Ambrose doing at times, and it only rarely factored into anything he actually did. I get the "kingslayer" idea better, that he took out Triple H (even if he didn't), plus it's ripped from GOT of course, but it doesn't give me a great idea of who he actually is. LK hit the core of the issue, that he comes off sometimes like he's a bunch of nicknames and catchphrases.

  33. #73
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    The architect worked for me when he was in the Shield cause it made sense from a concept level.. Dean being the crazy, Roman the silent badass. Then he has the heel run and I guess it still fits but he more a less comes off like a whiny son of the authority. With his face turn, his character was him looking for revenge against Trips. After that, he wanted redemption with Dean.. He got it and now he wants to be Seth Freakin' Rollins the best wrestler.

    Which wouldn't be so bad if most of the babyfaces wern't "I want to be the best wrestler" AJ... Finn.... etc
    Last edited by LK3185; 06-25-2018 at 05:13 PM.

  34. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by mizfan View Post
    Fair enough, but my general point still stands as even at the time I didn't really follow what it was supposed to mean. I got the general idea that he was meant to be the one planning things out for the Shield, but they also pushed the idea that it was Ambrose doing at times, and it only rarely factored into anything he actually did. I get the "kingslayer" idea better, that he took out Triple H (even if he didn't), plus it's ripped from GOT of course, but it doesn't give me a great idea of who he actually is. LK hit the core of the issue, that he comes off sometimes like he's a bunch of nicknames and catchphrases.
    I agree with your general thrust that his character is largely undefined. Seth fricking Rollins superworker is sort of neat, but I'm very wary of gimmicks that tout in a meta sense how great of a worker a wrestler is. Dislike it as much as 'Showstopper' Shawn Michaels.

  35. #75
    The Brain
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    Yeah, it's problematic on a conceptual level. Not in a way that ruins the character but it makes it hard to invest in him deeper than the superficial. At least Sting was usually trying to get some justified(ish) revenge on someone, even though he was also usually all but asking to be stabbed in the back. I mean, how many times can you trust Ric Flair?

  36. #76
    Member #25 SirSam's Avatar
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    Well since Plan hasn't jumped in here I'll steal some of his work and say that Seth Rollins character is one that is defined by his drive to succeed and iron will that gets it done. It is a drive and will that allows him to do anything and will see him go to any length to succeed. It is what allowed him to drive and hold together The Shield until the moment it was best of him to decide to move on. His borderline addiction to success saw him sink to low upon low to hold onto his position at the top of the company and then left him broken when it failed him upon his return.

    His understanding of success changed when Dean Ambrose finally beat him and Triple H turned on him. He then wanted to take vengance on the man that had led him so far astray and that iron will when refocused let him 'win an arse kicking contest with just one leg' which gave him a taste of success on the right terms and taught him that success is best when won in an untainted manner. That chasing of success is what has driven him since reforming with Dean Ambrose (the final step in putting himself back together) and you can see how his taste for success is unquenchable, after winning the IC title at Mania he wanted MORE MORE MORE which has led to such an unprecedented run, defending the title left right and center, here there and everywhere.

    I would also like to say that Dean Ambrose if far more than 'the crazy one' in fact he may actually be the only sane person in the world.

    Anyway, most of that is directly ripped from 'Plan's work but I think it holds true and really speaks to what drives Seth Rollins and too a degree that is actually backed by the man who plays Seth Rollins who endorsed 'Plan's column before Mania that talked about Seth's addiction to success.



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  37. #77
    The Brain
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    That's a pretty solid layout, honestly. Driven to succeed is pretty generic as motivations go but I can see that they've at least tried to add some wrinkles to set him apart.

  38. #78
    Member #25 SirSam's Avatar
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    30 Minute Iron Man match. Yes please.

    Anyone want to guess on the score. I'd love 1-0 with the final fall coming in the last 2-3 minutes and desperation from the other to try and catch them as the time ticks down.

    I feel like it may end up more like 2-1 though.



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  39. #79
    Administrator Prime Time's Avatar
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    Lot of chat about Rollins still out there. Obviously the time is different so it's not quite the same but it kinda reminds me of where people were talking about guys on the IC title in the 1990s, just a few months before the exploded as a main event star. I know Seth has been there before, briefly, but maybe next time it'll really stick?

    "The worst moron is the one too stupid to realise they're a moron."

  40. #80
    Member #25 SirSam's Avatar
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    "maybe next time it'll really stick?"

    I cannot wait for 'Plan to see that line.

    I think this Shield angle is the launching pad for Dean and Seth to truly conquer the main event that both have been a part of but not consistently. Especially since the end of 2016 when they fell out of their brand's championship picture.



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