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  1. #81
    Administrator Prime Time's Avatar
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    I don't think 'Plan has seen this thread for a while, to be honest.

    Not sure if that last comment of mine was right though - the buzz seems to have quietened a bit in the last few weeks. Maybe it feels different if you're watching, I dunno.

    "The worst moron is the one too stupid to realise they're a moron."

  2. #82
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    I think he's probably still the best in ring part of Raw, to be honest. Helps that he's back with The Shield, for sure, but in terms of in ring performance his last 10 months have been next level.

  3. #83
    Author of 101 WWE Matches To See Before You Die Samuel 'Plan's Avatar
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    There's definitely been a bit of a dip for him, and I'm a bit bitter about it. It's 2016 Ambrose all over again. He goes into Summerslam as the hottest thing in the company by an immense difference, but they protect the Roman Reigns project at all cost and, before you know it, there goes another chance to create a certified mega-star.

    Rollins has a knack of getting back to where he was though, and especially when he's opposite Ambrose. If that pans out how we all expect it too I fully expect the buzz to be earned back again. Though you never can quite predict what wrestling fans will do next, especially when it comes to WWE.

    Plus, like Oli says, the fact remains that he's been in another stratosphere to everyone else in the company for all of 2018 so far. And I'll happily argue that till I'm blue in the face. Only Mustafa Ali would have me second-guessing that assertion.

  4. #84
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    I mean, he's making Ziggler interesting in singles bouts. The last person that really nailed on a regular basis was Rey.

  5. #85
    The Brain
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    Had a bunch of 2018 Rollins matches recommended to me so thought I'd spread a few reviews around here...


    The Miz vs. Braun Strowman vs. Seth Rollins vs. Elias vs. John Cena vs. Finn Balor vs. Roman Reigns, Gauntlet 2/19/18 WWE Raw

    This is the big 100+ minute match from earlier this year, obviously. The big story coming out of this at the time was Rollins wrestled for more than an hour and pinned both Roman Reigns and John Cena, and it restarted his momentum as a prospective top contender after being on the back burner. Personally, while I respect Rollins ability to go that long, I actually didn't find his part of the match that compelling. The stuff with Reigns left little impression on me, and while his run with Cena was definitely better, it still felt rather emotionless to me. Two guys doing big moves but seemingly without strategy or urgency, or at least that's how I read it. For me it actually picked up when Elias came in, as he immediately started working heel and gave the match some much needed characterization. The match kept picking up from there until we got to the best stretch, which was Miz first picking the bones of Finn Balor only to then realize in a picture perfect moment that Strowman was left to come. Their entire stretch was a joy to watch and honestly seemed to have the most crowd reaction of the bunch, at least to my ears. Overall I did enjoy this and thought it was great at times, though I suspect those times are the opposite of what others liked about the match.

    The Miz vs. Seth Rollins vs. Finn Balor, WWE Intercontinental Championship 4/8/18 WWE Wrestlemania 34

    This was mentioned at the time of Wrestlemania as one of the three contenders for MOTN, and while I don't think it compared to the mixed tag or Asuka/Charlotte, I would say it was quite good overall. I can't fault the athletic ability of Rollins and Balor, though I find them both to be a bit robotic at times. The Miz felt like the anchor of this to me, keeping it going with character work and storytelling to supplement the barrage of big moves. Exciting stuff, I dug it.

    Seth Rollins vs. Finn Balor, WWE Intercontinental Championship 4/30/18 WWE Raw

    I'll just say up front, I didn't care for this. It was more indy than the stereotype of indy matches, just two athletic guys being athletic but seemingly employing no strategy, no real character on either side, and none of the moves seemed to mean a thing. At one point Rollins his a superplex, then Balor no sold it and hit his own move literally a second later. Nothing against those who liked this match, I know many did, but to me it was very dull. I think these guys need to be mixed up with people who aren't so similar to their own style.

    The Miz vs. Seth Rollins, WWE Intercontinental Championship 5/6/18 WWE Backlash

    Like this match! Of all the Rollins matches recommended, this was definitely the best, a really fantastic match. The way they played off each other was really beautiful at times, and the stuff with Seth's knee and the incredible nearfalls at the end were great. Rollins did a great job here, let me be clear, but if anything this set has convinced me it's Miz who is the best main roster guy the WWE has in the ring! His attention to detail and ability to build matches that are actively engaging rather than merely athletic is so valuable to me.

    Seth Rollins vs. Dolph Ziggler, Iron Man, WWE Intercontinental Championship 7/15/18 WWE Extreme Rules

    Polar opposite here, have to say in all honestly I hated this match, and it had nothing to do with the crowd chanting for the stupid buzzer. The thing is, the crowd didn't do that at the start. They seemed like they wanted to be into it. But when Rollins started racking up pins 4 minutes in with 3rd tier offense, I guess the fans got the message loud and clear that nothing was going to matter in this match until the end, and they quickly lost interest. I can't really blame them at all, what a heatless match this was overall. 7 falls in less than 10 minutes?? Good night. And apparently Drew McIntyre hitting some medium level offense was enough to kill Rollins for 4 falls straight. Lord of absolutely mercy. And what the heck was with Ziggler trying to leave at the end? How can he not know a countout will still lose him the title in this kind of match? Like, day 1 stuff here. The fact that it was all a big hooplah for Ziggler just to win anyway makes me think WWE actively wanted the fans to despise this match, and it sure worked on me!

  6. #86
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    30 minute Ironman matches are pointless regardless who is in it or what the crowd is doing.

  7. #87
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    Check out Seth vs KO from i think few weeks after Extreme Rules on Raw.. its the night KO "quit' and honestly felt it was way better match that Seth had against Ziggler.

  8. #88
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    I hate any ironman match that has an early pinfall. It doesn't make any sense, really, given that normally these guys can go for 15-20 minutes before a pin in a normal match. Early tapouts I get given the self-preservation angle, but early pinfalls always strike me as weird.

    Would far rather see a half hour match end 1-0 or 1-1 rather than 3-2. Plus, surely there's more drama in building up to a single pin in half an hour, especially with five minutes of someone desperate to get back on level terms, than in spreading the pins out? The drama is always in those last few minutes.

  9. #89
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    ^Bingo

  10. #90
    The Brain
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    Strongly agree on disliking 30 man Iron Mans in general unless they are handled really well. I will check out that Owens/Seth match, LK!

  11. #91
    Administrator Prime Time's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
    I hate any ironman match that has an early pinfall. It doesn't make any sense, really, given that normally these guys can go for 15-20 minutes before a pin in a normal match. Early tapouts I get given the self-preservation angle, but early pinfalls always strike me as weird.
    This is one of those things were the thing that makes sense actually suffers because we've accepted things that don't make sense as normal. Obviously in a sporting context a fall could happen early, for the same reason that some knockouts happen in the first round and some fights go the distance, and for the same reason that some football matches end scoreless while some have a goal in the first minute. Mistakes happen, sometimes someone catches their opponent out. It is the norm for a sporting contest.

    The trouble is that as wrestling has become less and less a facsimile of a catch-wrestling contest and more of a display of moves, and the chances of someone being caught out by a mundane move decreases, when you try and invoke those perfectly sensible things they feel strange. Essentially we've rationalised the il-logic of contemporary pro wrestling, and the good sense of that kind of accumulation in the ironman match seems to be one of the victims of that.

    "The worst moron is the one too stupid to realise they're a moron."

  12. #92
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    I could accept a pin fall in the first minute if it came as some sort of surprise move that one the competitors had never used before, so their opponent has no idea itís coming and doesnít recognize the set up. Ie... if Rollins threw a roaring elbow and essentially knocked out his opponent as soon as the bell rang. Whereas, letís say HBK shouldnít be able to connect with Sweet Chin Music in the opening seconds because heís known for doing that, this his opponent should be well aware thatís a possibility thatís coming.

  13. #93
    Administrator Prime Time's Avatar
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    I mean even there. Sometimes in sport you know something is coming but you're not good enough in the moment to stop it. You make a mistake, or they are just better than you are in that minute. Hell, Stanley Matthews had one move on the football field but was famously that good at it that no one was able to stop him. So there's nothing logically wrong with it if you present it right. It just feels weird because 99% of the wrestling matches we've seen in the past 15 years haven't worked like that.

    "The worst moron is the one too stupid to realise they're a moron."

  14. #94
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    For me it's about context. If WWE put the work in to teach fans that falls could happen at any time, you could make a case for that. But that's never been their game, least of all in the modern area. WWE style says 99.9% of the time only a very small set of finishers can result in a meaningful fall. The benefit of that is those moves get over big and are very recognizable, but the downside is it gets hard to invest in "normal" moves.

  15. #95
    Administrator Prime Time's Avatar
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    I don't disagree with that. I think the only difference I'd make is that rather than the WWE teaching fans that a fall could happen at any time, if it were treated as sport we'd likely 'presume' that. What we've been 'taught', is that they won't happen that way, and that you can ignore a whole lot of what you see - at least as far as results go. Rather than WWE having to do the work to set-up an ironman match working, they would automatically work were it not for the specific work that style has done to make them fail. But context in this case is the reason that what is normal becomes strange and what is bizarre is normal. So as in so many other cases where we disagree, we have a similar interpretation, but come to different conclusions, I guess.

    "The worst moron is the one too stupid to realise they're a moron."

  16. #96
    The Brain
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    I get what you're saying, but even in the case of an actual sport there are expectations built over time that teach the fans how "difficult" certain things are supposed to be. Soccer games don't end with scores like 100 to 99, and basketball games don't end with scores like 2 to 1, and if they did something would obviously be screwy. In the standard WWE style, you don't expect a fall between two big names to come in under 10 minutes usually, let alone 7 falls in that same period. Like you said I don't think we exactly disagree here, but the question of thinking about the WWE style in any terms but the ones they've dictated over the past few decades is so outside the realm of thought that it doesn't even occur to me.

  17. #97
    Administrator Prime Time's Avatar
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    Ah, but the difference is when those screwy things happen in sport (or in wrestling presented as sport, traditionally) you say 'WOW, did you see that!' or 'Man, player x really fucked up, he needs to recover and do well now.'

    What you don't do, is go 'I can't believe this, this is clearly fake bullshit and makes no sense.' So the effect is quite different.

    Quote Originally Posted by mizfan View Post
    the question of thinking about the WWE style in any terms but the ones they've dictated over the past few decades is so outside the realm of thought that it doesn't even occur to me.
    I do get where you are coming from here, but my take on this is that it is the WWE style itself that is illogical, and the only way you can assess that is to step outside of it and compare it with other reference points. The reason it doesn't work is not that it does not make sense but that they have dug a hole for themselves elsewhere. You've got to climb out of the hole in order to see it!

    "The worst moron is the one too stupid to realise they're a moron."

  18. #98
    The Brain
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    Regardless I think we can agree it boils down to a presentation problem. I think you CAN have those moments in wrestling but you have to present them in the right way. There's also the basic problem of art vs. sport and the perception therein, but no point getting into that again!

  19. #99
    Administrator Prime Time's Avatar
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    Yes, absolutely. And from things you've said in the past a move towards a system where a fall could legitimately happen at anytime - not just in WWE but in some other promotions I could name - is something that you'd like to see, too, I suspect?

    "The worst moron is the one too stupid to realise they're a moron."

  20. #100
    The Brain
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    If you're referencing New Japan, yes, I have a similar problem at times! But at least they're not likely to run a short iron man match with a lot of easy falls, so there's some consistency. I think lucha libre is actually the best modern style for matches that can end on a wide variety of moves, though a few promotions can also make that claim.

  21. #101
    Just popped in to say I've just read all of that and had a lovely time.

    Throwing in Rollins' recent tag match with Ambrose vs Ziggler & Galloway at the last PPV, which I thought was tremendous. Built off of the past matches really well was one of those that found that extra notch half way through and never let go.

  22. #102
    The Brain
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    I was wondering if someone would pitch that! I'll throw it on my list!

  23. #103
    Lamb of LOP anonymous's Avatar
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    Rollins is cheapening the title by not defending it. All the work put into the IC title is now being deemed superfluous as Rollins seems to have forgotten he has the belt and not care. It’s a real shame.

  24. #104
    Feeling Minnesota Powder's Avatar
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    It's exactly like the Miz says, He makes the IC title relevant and the most important title in the WWE, when he carries it. The Miz deserves a WWE title run, and he should hold the title leading into Wrestlemania.

    Then once he loses the title at Mania to Bryan, over the summer, the Miz needs to ask for one of two things (in character on screen):
    1. That the IC title is brought back to Smackdown or
    2. He gets traded to RAW

    So that he can win the IC title another time to set (tie) the record for most IC title runs, and the most amount of days as IC title holder, AND to make the IC title the most relevant title in the WWE.

  25. #105
    Member #25 SirSam's Avatar
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    I think Rollins run has been absolutely amazing and really the cherry on top of the revitalisation for the IC title that started with KO in 2015, went to Dean, Miz of course and now Rollins however I think it is time for him to drop it to someone else. The midcard on Raw really could use it particularly if Rollins is about to enter a blood feud with Dean. Someone like Finn could continue the good work that they are doing, it could be a great centerpiece for Elias to brag about or I'm even partial to Lashley now he has Lio Rush doing his best Floyd Mayweather impersonation, could add to that act immensely.



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  26. #106
    Give the IC belt to Elias. He's super over with the crowd.

    I know face vs face feuds don't work so just throw Corbin, Dean Seth and Elias in a fatal four way for the belt and have Elias win it.

  27. #107
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    I think I'd quite like to see the IC title get some shine by virtue of being involved in a high profile Rollins/Ambrose feud. Ambrose could claim he needs the title to prove he wasn't the weak link or something, say that it validates him. Be an interesting route.

    Do we know what's happening to the tag titles? Neither man had theirs this week, right?

  28. #108
    Member #25 SirSam's Avatar
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    Dean could easily say that he made the IC title meaningful way before Seth ever got his hands on it.



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  29. #109
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    I assume they'd have to vacate the tag belts, right? It's gone too far for them to pretend Ambrose and Rollins made up for one night to drop them, right? Or they could do some bit like Rollins has to defend them by himself and Ambrose refuses to come out. Are there any really good heel tag teams right now to make that work? Revival, maybe? Otherwise vacating them and having a nice big tournament might be the way to put focus back on the division.

  30. #110
    Member #25 SirSam's Avatar
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    Revival or AOP. You would not want to face either of those guys down a man.



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  31. #111
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    I'd be so into a Revival vs Rollins match right now. That's possibly the best thing they could do with all three people - although it might make it look like The Revival lucked into winning, I suppose.

    Tournament? Struggle with tag teams on Raw other than Revival, AoP, Zeega McEntire...Chad and Robert, I suppose, and The Ascension. Lucha House Party? Are Slater and Rhyno still employed?

    They could always run a tag team gauntlet at Survivor Series, winner gets the belts. Kind of works with the theme. Of course, in my head that means The Revival enter first and defeat everyone to win them due to their in ring acumen and ability. In reality it probably means Chad and Robert enter last and win in the most boring fashion possible.

  32. #112
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    Oh shit, AoP would be awesome in that role too! And big heat for the team too since Rollins is extra hot right now.

    If they do a tournament maybe it's a chance to throw a few more teams together, see what sticks? I'm sad that a Gable/Roode tag team is considered dull but I can't say I'm surprised. Seems like under the right circumstances that'd be awesome though.

  33. #113
    Member #25 SirSam's Avatar
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    So next up for the IC Title is against Dean at TLC.

    Am I lost in my pure markedom thinking this should main event the show in a TLC match?



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  34. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirSam View Post
    So next up for the IC Title is against Dean at TLC.

    Am I lost in my pure markedom thinking this should main event the show in a TLC match?
    It's difficult - I agree on the main event nature of it, because it's without a doubt the best feud Raw has going right now, and possibly even in the whole of WWE. But the stipulation is what has me questioning it. Then again, WWE gonna WWE and make their PPVs all stipulation based rather than be logical about it, I guess.

  35. #115
    Member #25 SirSam's Avatar
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    Yeah, logically this should probably be a straight match given it is the first one in this 'feud' however I'm willing for them a pass because they have such a long history and it is already so emotionally charged of a rivalry.



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  36. #116
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    I'm a little surprised they are running it already. I figured it had a chance to be a Wrestlemania feud but I wonder if WWE will keep it running that long, it's hot but WWE rarely seems to run anything that long anymore.

  37. #117
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    Well, the thing is I suppose, if they run it with a stip like TLC, they can pay it off with a double count out/count down or whatever and leave it as a no contest. Which they could do with a standard singles match as well. Either way, I see at the most a 'lucky' win for Rollins, or alternatively something like the Charlotte/Rousey finish with Ambrose in the Charlotte role. Just hopefully not a DQ from the old WWE favourite of 'too much fighting'. I don't think they end this clean. I say they just brawl and the match never really starts.

    Seems they've burnt the TLC stipulation on Strowman vs Corbin, so we (probably) don't have it here.

  38. #118
    Administrator Prime Time's Avatar
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    I'm not sure they've done enough with this to warrant running it as a main event yet? I know it's popular in some circles but I see plenty of comments that suggest for a lot of the audience it's just another typical WWE feud, and I don't really see any proof it's got traction outside a fairly circumscribed cohort in the wrestling world. Certainly nothing to suggest there's a wider, mainstream appeal. And in the absence of a genuine reason to put something in a main event slot I tend to think you've got to run the top title in that position.

    I guess if it does win more people over, or start making bigger waves, then you could elevate it to the finisher down the line.

    "The worst moron is the one too stupid to realise they're a moron."

  39. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prime Time View Post
    I'm not sure they've done enough with this to warrant running it as a main event yet? I know it's popular in some circles but I see plenty of comments that suggest for a lot of the audience it's just another typical WWE feud, and I don't really see any proof it's got traction outside a fairly circumscribed cohort in the wrestling world.
    Not only is this correct, it appears there's a decent amount of fans already turning on it. Some fans think they're turning Dean into too much of a "typical WWE heel" instead of the crazed Jon Moxley character he was on the indies years ago. Others were really turned off by that line about Roman Reigns last night where Dean might've implied Roman deserved to get leukemia. I didn't think it was too bad when I listened to it (and I'd expect most here feel the same as I've seen no chatter about it), but I certainly wouldn't have scripted that line and a lot of people were furious over it. It's basically led to a feud where some people love it, some people think it's by the numbers and others loathe it because it's continuing to play off a real life situation in a pretty tasteless way. Not the end of the world obviously, but it's definitely not the type of split reaction you want for a feud that, when the roles were reversed, was one of the most popular feuds WWE put on a few years ago. Well at least until Dean was attacked by a holograph in that Hell in a Cell match.

    I still think they made a mistake doing the turn when they did it. I know WWE thought it would get so much heat to turn Dean the same night Roman left but all it's really done, in my eyes, is attach this feud to a real life situation that shouldn't be touched upon given how tragic it could become. The fact that WWE hasn't moved entirely away from it either doesn't help. They should've given Dean and Seth a few weeks to run as tag champions, done the turn this past Sunday and started the feud last night. I think that's hurting it now just as much as WWE not giving the feud enough oomph out of the gate for certain fans.


  40. #120
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    I don't know, I actually like Ambrose being a despicable bastard and invoking Roman's leukaemia. Too many WWE bad guys are fundamentally just cowards and not really fundamentally evil. Ambrose isn't, and he's also being super manipulative of Rollins, knowing that he can get into his head and leverage all his latent guilt over the original Shield break up into getting Rollins to be irrational. So yeah, it's awkward and stuff that Ambrose is using his friend's leukaemia as a storyline point here, but I'm a) sure he won't be doing it without Reigns' approval, and b) understand it from the type of heel mindgames he's trying to play.

    I'm just happy he's not turning up with a hot dog trolley and tonging Rollins' ballsack now in the name of being a 'lunatic'. This is much more the sort of Ambrose I want to see.

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