Page 6 of 6 FirstFirst ... 456
Results 201 to 224 of 224
  1. #201
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2019
    Posts
    203
    Quote Originally Posted by LK3185 View Post
    He worked with Mox for 8 years and doesn’t seem to know him at all.
    But you and almost everyone else online thinks they know Moxley because of 2 interviews. The idea that you believe Seth doesn't know him at all because they disagree on something is astounding.

    Besides, you're basically saying that Jon is allowed to be negative and share his negative opinion, but Seth isn't allowed to disagree and be negative towards Jon's opinion. It's a ridiculous scenario.

  2. #202
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Posts
    1,127
    I’m not saying I know Mox at all but Seth’s perspective makes it sound like he doesn’t know him and is pissed off that Mox has a negative opinion just because he had opportunities. They didn’t have these talks while working together, ever?

    Seth has his own POV and that’s cool but he should just leave it at my experience isn’t like that. He doesn’t have to say the schedule was basically too tough for Moxley

    So I’m left thinking here that Moxley told no one that he was incredibly depressed working for WWE late in his career or just Seth didn’t know and that’s why he’s saying this stuff
    Last edited by LK3185; 06-25-2019 at 04:38 PM.

  3. #203
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2019
    Posts
    203
    Quote Originally Posted by LK3185 View Post
    Seth has his own POV and that’s cool but he should just leave it at my experience isn’t like that. He doesn’t have to say the schedule was basically too tough for Moxley
    But, what if that's true, and it is Seth's opinion?

  4. #204
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Posts
    1,127
    Well for one thing, just going off what Mox had said it was the stifling creative and not the schedule that was the problem and caused him to be depressed about working for WWE..but even if the schedule was wearing on Mox, Seth is also making light of Mox’s issues...when he’s not in those same shoes

    Just seems shitty of a friend to imply. That’s all.

    Mox wasn’t speaking for anyone but himself

  5. #205
    Member #25 SirSam's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    1,519
    Quote Originally Posted by mizfan View Post
    I thought it came off kind of condescending and dismissive, but everyone's got a right to their opinion.



    It could easily change with time as they start to run more frequently, but worth mentioning that neither All In or Double or Nothing featured any kind of hijacking chants or crowd goofing off. I really think you eliminate a lot of that stuff if you put on a product that engages the crowd.
    I disagree Mizfan. Look at the Iron Man with Ziggler last year. It was hardly an all time great match but it was exactly the kind of thing that smart fans claim they want and instead of getting involved in the match they chanted about a timer because they thought they were being funny.

    I agree that it would be good if a large element of that crowd would remove themselves. A lot of them go planning on hijacking and crapping all over it, with that attitude I would argue it is nearly impossible to properly engage them as they simply refuse to be engaged. You can argue the company has caused this disenchantment but the action fans take when they get to that point is on them. I donít see you going to wwe shows with beach balls packed in your bag ready to chant about other things.

  6. #206
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2019
    Posts
    203
    Quote Originally Posted by LK3185 View Post
    Well for one thing, just going off what Mox had said it was the stifling creative and not the schedule that was the problem and caused him to be depressed about working for WWE..but even if the schedule was wearing on Mox, Seth is also making light of Mox’s issues...when he’s not in those same shoes

    Just seems shitty of a friend to imply. That’s all.

    Mox wasn’t speaking for anyone but himself
    Using your own words, then Mox should have said "creative was stifling for me. That was my experience." Because he did in fact speak as if he spoke for the whole locker room. He made it seem like no one can convince the creative team to sway more into the performers ideas, but the truth is that he's really one of the only few people to say creative didn't work well with him. Most people say they are able to make suggestions and changes to fit their character better. Except for the former Dean Ambrose, yet that's taken as gospel today to so many who are on twitter and bugging Seth. So Seth shared his own piece to say it wasn't the case.

    I have nothing against Moxley for his opinions and how he shared them. But I don't think it's fair to say Moxley had the right to say what he said, but Seth shouldn't have. That's hypocrisy. The only difference is one is spouting anti-WWE rhetoric, while the other is defending WWE. And picking sides one way or the other is entirely unfair. Especially because no one here knows anything for sure. We only hear stories. Jericho has been one of the biggest voices against WWE, yet when he was working for them, he was all talk about how much creative freedom he got. Almost like these stories have an agenda more than truth to it...

  7. #207
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Posts
    519
    If the fans are the problem then why is it only WWE where this sort of thing happens? There are times I will watch a week's worth of shows from Mexico and I never see a crowd hijack a show. I never saw the crowd hijack a Lucha Underground show (although with that one it was a much smaller audience geared towards that product). I've never seen anyone hijack a New Japan show, or any other promotion in Japan. I haven't seen anyone hijack an Impact show since the Russo days over a decade ago, and I haven't seen an ROH show hijacked despite the fact that they arguably deserve it. I haven't seen an MLW show hijacked. mizfan will know better than me but I've never seen a show in the UK or Europe that was hijacked. And while they are only one show in (two if you want to count All In) AEW hasn't had the issue either, and that's despite the fact they were in Chicago last year. mizfan made a great point to me earlier; that place gets CM Punk chants whenever a show is run there, and yet at All In there were none.

    That's the crux of the issue here. I am admittedly pro fan in almost all these instances (the onus, to me, is on the promotion and the wrestlers to win the crowd over, not for the crowd to just blindly accept what's in front of them) but even if I wasn't the first question I would ask here is, if the fans are such a problem, why does it only happen in one promotion? If this were a widespread thing where every promotion experienced fan hijackings every so often then it be one thing. The fact that this is a WWE problem and not a wrestling problem tells me it's less the fans fault and more the WWE not doing a good enough job of giving the fans what they want. Otherwise, why isn't it happening elsewhere?

    And as for the Iron Man match example from last year, that match was doomed from the get go. As memory serves it came at the end of a show that was pretty poorly received, while the match itself was not well booked (I seem to recall Rollins went up in that match early, thus eliminating the valuable "babyface comes from behind" angle that generally makes Iron Man matches work). The fact that WWE then had the clock, took away the clock and then brought it back only compounded the problems, especially since they NEVER should've had the clock up to begin with. There were definitely some things WWE did wrong (from a booking standpoint mostly) but even if they booked it perfectly that match was going to have hard time after that show. And that's without considering that Iron Man matches, regardless of who is in them or whether it's 30 to 60 minutes, are notoriously difficult to pull off. Since I started watching wrestling the only legitimately good ones I can recall are the Brock-Angle one, Prince Puma vs. Johnny Mundo from LU's first season and Mundo vs. Willie Mack from LU's third season. It's not a match that can easily be pulled off, even with the best guys involved.


  8. #208
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Posts
    1,127
    Quote Originally Posted by PEN15v2 View Post
    Using your own words, then Mox should have said "creative was stifling for me. That was my experience." Because he did in fact speak as if he spoke for the whole locker room. He made it seem like no one can convince the creative team to sway more into the performers ideas, but the truth is that he's really one of the only few people to say creative didn't work well with him. Most people say they are able to make suggestions and changes to fit their character better. Except for the former Dean Ambrose, yet that's taken as gospel today to so many who are on twitter and bugging Seth. So Seth shared his own piece to say it wasn't the case.

    I have nothing against Moxley for his opinions and how he shared them. But I don't think it's fair to say Moxley had the right to say what he said, but Seth shouldn't have. That's hypocrisy. The only difference is one is spouting anti-WWE rhetoric, while the other is defending WWE. And picking sides one way or the other is entirely unfair. Especially because no one here knows anything for sure. We only hear stories. Jericho has been one of the biggest voices against WWE, yet when he was working for them, he was all talk about how much creative freedom he got. Almost like these stories have an agenda more than truth to it...
    Mox didn’t bash anyone for doing their job and doing the best they can. He mentioned how R-Truth loves what he’s doing.. He also said Roman didn’t want to say suffering succotash...Roman still said it. What I’m getting at is Mox painted the picture that Vince was sometimes right with his ideas but rigid in how he wanted you to do them his way. He thought Dean Ambrose was a rodeo clown and Mox couldn’t fight against that no matter how hard he tried.

    Maybe it’s that Seth doesn’t get that type of bs because that’s not how Vince views his character. It’s not like Seth gave a specific example on something he didn’t like that he was able to get changed.

    Look, I have no problem with Seth saying what he believes in and his experience but I don’t think he had to take thinly veiled shots at Mox.

  9. #209
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Posts
    1,059
    Is it possible that both Seth and Dean are seeing these things through their own prism?

    Like, what possible reason does Seth have to be frustrated with his creative direction? Not only is he the current Universal Champion, he's been continually booked strongly through his time in WWE and, when you look at it, really hasn't been involved in any angles where he's been made to play a clown or act like a complete chode. He gets to be the wrestler he is - a serious guy who maybe occasionally cracks a joke but is otherwise just a straight ahead guy.

    Whereas Ambrose clearly recognised that (for example) his angle with Seth when he turned heel had a real emotional heft and wanted to take that seriously, yet was led by creative (and Vince) down a 'you people suck and smell and are all ill' line which he didn't agree with, and despite his efforts to change things didn't get out of the creative process what he wanted.

    It's possible for both viewpoints to be 'right', and just be a case of where they're coming at the situation from.

  10. #210
    Member #25 SirSam's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    1,519
    I think you guys are bang on about it being different situations for most performers. The things Dean seemed to have the most issue with was the comedic things he was forced into and props foisted upon him, thing Seth has rarely, if ever, had to deal with.

    I understand him wanting to fire back though. From the WWE's side of things I imagine it feels like they are copping a pounding from the media and now very prominent former wrestlers and the negativity is hitting fever pitch and yet he does have a very good argument to make. Who makes more money? Who wrestles in front of more fans? Who is on the road the most?

    I'm not saying I agree with him but I think he is trying to draw a line in the sand and stick up for a company and roster he sees himself as a leader of.

  11. #211
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Posts
    519
    There's a reason they're getting that negativity though. To most fans and critics the product isn't good; as an outsider I cannot speak for how the product is (if you like it or don't like it, great!) but it doesn't take a genius to look around, see how most fans are reacting (which is a big deal because the audience is largely down to the hardcore fans based on the numbers we have), see how non Saudi Arabia/TV deal business is going and see things could be better. And the fact is Seth's argument isn't the best. There are promotions around the world right now, including New Japan, CMLL and AAA (though AAA does run far less than WWE) that draw a bigger audience than WWE has recently, especially in the last week. The WWE is making money but it's on the back of TV deals and the controversial Saudi Arabia deal, not because they're drawing huge figures on TV, in the arenas or on the network. And Will Ospreay, the guy who Seth was picking on, has actually wrestled more shows this year than Seth has and is just about to take part in arguably the most grueling competition in pro wrestling (same with Moxley). I'm not saying he can't make an argument or that the one I just gave is foolproof. But his is far from it as well.

    In the end though, and I think this is very important, the issue here isn't that he spoke up for WWE, or at least it isn't for me. I have no issue with that at all and I don't think anyone else should either; at the end of the day this is a guy who has been pushed consistently hard by WWE since he got there, is likely getting paid very well, is currently "the guy" on the totem pole and, and this shouldn't be underestimated, has potentially found the love of his life working there. Combine that with him surely having pride in his work and the impulse we all have to defend what we love doing and it's completely understandable why he is doing this. The only reason this is a story is because of his approach. It be one thing if he was putting down a guy like Slim J or Australian Suicide who was trying to compare themselves to him. To try and big league a well known name like Will Ospreay and act like he's just some dude when Ospreay, regardless of your feelings towards him as a performer or person, is having a career year both as a worker and as a draw for the second biggest promotion in the world, isn't going to look good to a neutral party (especially since Ospreay's initial comment was just him saying "I'm alive" when Rollins said no one alive could touch him. It was only after Seth's comments did Ospreay start firing back). The Moxley thing is less of a deal to me the more I go back and read his quotes (and like others have pointed out, I think it's clear they both have different perspectives), but that won't change the fact that him saying his friend "took his ball and went home", a legit incorrect statement that seems out of WWE corporate speak, will continue to look bad, especially since Seth reveals in the same interview that he hasn't even shared this view with Mox. There was a way for him to be pro-WWE while not coming across the way he did and he very clearly did not do that in my eyes.

    In the end it'll change absolutely nothing. The people who are pro-WWE will flock to it as a rallying cry and then move onto the next thing. The anti-WWE crowd will paint Seth as a corporate stooge and then move onto the next thing. Neither side will listen to each other. And WWE or wrestling business as a whole will not see anything come from this because a) Seth cannot actually have a match with either Ospreay or Moxley, b) Seth isn't actually turning heel (one of the few things I've seen suggested) and c) something will come along in a few days that makes everyone forget about this ordeal, whether it be someone stealing the show at Fyter Fest, some other scandal or T.O. crushing us all with the Steinerbot. I'm already exhausted just thinking about it!


  12. #212
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2019
    Posts
    203
    Quote Originally Posted by LK3185 View Post
    Look, I have no problem with Seth saying what he believes in and his experience but I don’t think he had to take thinly veiled shots at Mox.
    I think calling them shots is being overly sensitive. I understood his comments as "WWE was not the creative environment for Dean/Jon to maximize his talents". The only possible shot was "take ball and go home" part, which is more about how Jon has commented since leaving the company. Whether you agree with Jon or Seth doesn't matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
    Is it possible that both Seth and Dean are seeing these things through their own prism?

    Like, what possible reason does Seth have to be frustrated with his creative direction? Not only is he the current Universal Champion, he's been continually booked strongly through his time in WWE and, when you look at it, really hasn't been involved in any angles where he's been made to play a clown or act like a complete chode. He gets to be the wrestler he is - a serious guy who maybe occasionally cracks a joke but is otherwise just a straight ahead guy.

    Whereas Ambrose clearly recognised that (for example) his angle with Seth when he turned heel had a real emotional heft and wanted to take that seriously, yet was led by creative (and Vince) down a 'you people suck and smell and are all ill' line which he didn't agree with, and despite his efforts to change things didn't get out of the creative process what he wanted.

    It's possible for both viewpoints to be 'right', and just be a case of where they're coming at the situation from.
    You're making a huge assumption here. Yes, Seth didn't turn his character into anything comedy related. But who says Dean didn't enjoy being a comedy act? Dean didn't like aspects of the comedy act, but nothing he's said indicated he hated the whole experience. And from what I have read from his post-WWE interviews, he wanted to take the character in a direction WWE wouldn't be comfortable with, mostly the hardcore aspect thing. I'm not defending WWE at all here, I think there should have been more than just room to compromise without someone with outstanding creative energy like Moxley. WWE dropped the ball with him for sure. But In a weird "read between the lines" kind of thing, and with no true evidence to backlit up, I felt like he had a lot of freedom, but not in a way he wanted to work. Which I understand. When I was working in broadcasting, I was always told which ideas I should use, told other things to do, and which of my own creativity wouldn't be accepted. I hated it and am no longer a broadcaster for multiple reasons. But I could never say I wasn't allowed to be creative, I could only say some of my ideas weren't allowed/accepted. I truly cannot believe WWE/Vince had 100% control over the Dean Ambrose character, and Jonathan Good had no input. I just think his input wasn't going to work in someone's opinion.

    For example, the Brock Lesnar match. I'm sorry, but expecting the best paid man in the company with a limited schedule to take crazy hardcore match bumps is stupid. The match sucked, and there should have been more hardcore/extreme rules stuff to it, but I also know that I have been in positions in my life working with someone else, and the ideas are terrible, so I stop letting them contribute. I'm not saying it's the right way to handle it, but I can understand if that's what happened with Brock. So if Dean was just too heavy handed pushing barbwire and blood, I could see why WWE/Brock would just stop listening to his ideas and put a foot down.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cult Icon View Post
    To try and big league a well known name like Will Ospreay and act like he's just some dude when Ospreay, regardless of your feelings towards him as a performer or person, is having a career year both as a worker and as a draw for the second biggest promotion in the world, isn't going to look good to a neutral party (especially since Ospreay's initial comment was just him saying "I'm alive" when Rollins said no one alive could touch him. It was only after Seth's comments did Ospreay start firing back). The Moxley thing is less of a deal to me the more I go back and read his quotes (and like others have pointed out, I think it's clear they both have different perspectives), but that won't change the fact that him saying his friend "took his ball and went home", a legit incorrect statement that seems out of WWE corporate speak, will continue to look bad, especially since Seth reveals in the same interview that he hasn't even shared this view with Mox. There was a way for him to be pro-WWE while not coming across the way he did and he very clearly did not do that in my eyes.

    In the end it'll change absolutely nothing. The people who are pro-WWE will flock to it as a rallying cry and then move onto the next thing. The anti-WWE crowd will paint Seth as a corporate stooge and then move onto the next thing. Neither side will listen to each other. And WWE or wrestling business as a whole will not see anything come from this because a) Seth cannot actually have a match with either Ospreay or Moxley, b) Seth isn't actually turning heel (one of the few things I've seen suggested) and c) something will come along in a few days that makes everyone forget about this ordeal, whether it be someone stealing the show at Fyter Fest, some other scandal or T.O. crushing us all with the Steinerbot. I'm already exhausted just thinking about it!

    Sorry, but in my view Seth didn't "big league" Will until Will inserted himself into the conversation. Whenever any wrestler has called themselves the Best in the World, be it Punk, Jericho, or Bryan, that is accepted. But Seth's "approach" made it an open invite for anyone to insert themselves? So Will made himself a target, and Seth pointed out why he feels Will isn't the best. They all used antagonistic language, because it's wrestling. Promos aren't "I think I can outwrestle you and win the championship". Promos are "I'm going to dismantle you and leave you a bloody pulp." Seth's approach was no different than any wrestling talk.


    Lots of over-sensitivity here.


    Either way, I don't see the point of any of this. Like you said, people won't change sides, and won't listen to reason. It's just rabble rabble, rah rah for my team. It's pretty silly.

  13. #213
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Posts
    1,127
    I think with Jon right or wrong, he had certain expectations and ideas of what he wanted to do in WWE and mentioned how his first day on the main roster sort of shattered that illusion. I also think he wanted the Brock match to be his Edge/Mick Foley or at least of that type and no one including Brock thought the match meant anything which I could see being frustrating.

    People will read into someone quotes how they will, just like people watch the product and see different things..or really anything in life that’s what makes the human brain so fascinating.

    Onto Seth, does anyone think they paired Becky with Seth in the storyline to have her star rub off on him? I mean I know they are dating but WWE didn’t have to mention it. Not sure where it’s going really

  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by LK3185 View Post
    I think with Jon right or wrong, he had certain expectations and ideas of what he wanted to do in WWE and mentioned how his first day on the main roster sort of shattered that illusion. I also think he wanted the Brock match to be his Edge/Mick Foley or at least of that type and no one including Brock thought the match meant anything which I could see being frustrating.

    People will read into someone quotes how they will, just like people watch the product and see different things..or really anything in life that’s what makes the human brain so fascinating.

    Onto Seth, does anyone think they paired Becky with Seth in the storyline to have her star rub off on him? I mean I know they are dating but WWE didn’t have to mention it. Not sure where it’s going really
    I'm not sure Seth needed Becky's starpower to rub off on him. I think he is a big enough star without it. I really do not know what the purpose of it is and like you, I don't believe they needed to incorporate it into the storylines.

  15. #215
    The Brain
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Posts
    2,831
    Quote Originally Posted by SirSam View Post
    I disagree Mizfan. Look at the Iron Man with Ziggler last year. It was hardly an all time great match but it was exactly the kind of thing that smart fans claim they want and instead of getting involved in the match they chanted about a timer because they thought they were being funny.
    I can understand this perspective but I had a different feeling about that match when I went back to watch it. It seemed like the crowd was pretty invested in the match for the first few minutes, but then they suddenly started racking up something like 7 falls in less than 10 minutes and making the interference the sole focus of the match, and the crowd just lost interest. Admittedly they decided to be obnoxious at that point, but I thought a big part of it is they just lost interest in the match when it took an off-putting turn. I also think the interest in Ziggler was tenuous to begin with since he's been booked so start/stop over the years, even by WWE perspective. Just my gut feeling reaction when I watched the match, for what it's worth.

  16. #216
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Posts
    146
    Just saw the Seth comments. I have to say, he comes off as a total mark. Somehow he managed to make himself look more whiny and bitchy than Ambrose and Punk, who actually left the company and had serious issues with Vince, and yet they told their stories in graceful ways without coming off as bitter.

    "The he took his ball home" comment was the most ludicrous part of his interview. No, no, no. He gave the WWE advance notice, fulfilled his contract in full, even when they tried to do stupid, petty shit with him like trying to job him out with Nia, and then when his contract expired, he went elsewhere. As if being dissatisfied with your workplace, leaving professionally and going elsewhere is somehow a bad thing these days.

    I get that WWE has treated Seth pretty well, and he's at his career peak in terms of placement, but this was completely unnecessary and embarrassing. He really needs to get lessons from Cena who was a master of ignoring the online hate and not letting it get to him.

  17. #217
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2019
    Posts
    203
    Quote Originally Posted by LK3185 View Post
    I think with Jon right or wrong, he had certain expectations and ideas of what he wanted to do in WWE and mentioned how his first day on the main roster sort of shattered that illusion. I also think he wanted the Brock match to be his Edge/Mick Foley or at least of that type and no one including Brock thought the match meant anything which I could see being frustrating.

    People will read into someone quotes how they will, just like people watch the product and see different things..or really anything in life thatís what makes the human brain so fascinating.

    Onto Seth, does anyone think they paired Becky with Seth in the storyline to have her star rub off on him? I mean I know they are dating but WWE didnít have to mention it. Not sure where itís going really
    I love the Seth + Becky onscreen pairing. I think it's a new story that WWE have never told. We've seen couples before, but never full-time credible champions of their divisions. And these types of stories are where Vince really thrives. So, it should be interesting (though it could be bungled up completely like 75% of what they've done lately).



    I posted this elsewhere when Jon Moxley had his first post-WWE podcast interview with Jericho, and I thought it might be relevant for this conversation about Seth's comments:

    You can be pushed to the moon ,and still be wasted. I'm not much of an Ambrose /Moxley fan, but there's no denying that there was a character or at least a potential for a character that WWE seemed to refuse to utilize. In that way, I feel he was wasted.
    That said, I've recently developed a theory that might explain a few things with talents like Ambrose. I think Vince sees the potential, but tests the performer's patience. With Brock in 2002-2004, Vince strapped the rocket on him, and then Lesnar walked out. I'm wondering if cases like that has led to Vince refusing to push someone so fast even if they are over. Vince used his ideas to push Dean, and see what worked. And had Dean passed the test, he would have been given the keys to the kingdom and go nuts. But the face run didn't really work, so Vince didn't want to trust him yet, so tried his own way as a heel run. And now Dean is Jon Moxley again.
    I actually put this theory to the test with Bray Wyatt. He pushed Bray in huge angles, but didn't give him wins to test if the performer can make it work, and stick around. Now, Bray is getting a new lease on life, and I feel Vince is backing away from this character from his own creative input. It's truly hard to believe Vince has had any input on the Funhouse.
    For the record, I'm not defending Vince if this theory is correct. I'm just explaining how I understand why he could potentially be doing this. I think Dean should have been heel a long time ago, and Vince should take a step back more often. Cases like Brock will happen, and Vince will get burned. But the alternative is stale Vince ideas way too often, and it seems like it's hurting the product overall. Micromanaging creative people is just not a good idea.

    How that relates to Seth, is maybe passed all the "tests" for the brass ring with his Shield Work, then the heel turn, then the face turn vs HHH, leading to this title run. Maybe he's been given small chances to prove himself, so he gets the freedom Dean/Jon asked for.

    I'm not saying any of this is fact, as I don't work backstage either. But I really can't wrap my head around the assumption that Seth was just randomly pushed from the start, and Dean was treated shabbily, and that's why one is happy and the other is happier after leaving WWE. There has to be more to it than either have said, which is why I think taking anything they say as pure gospel isn't fair at all. I get the feeling (just a hunch, no proof) that Dean at one point dropped the ball. Not sure if it was a promo, or a match, or something, but Vince was left believing that Dean was only to be scripted. Or scripted more than other top stars. I truly can't see why he'd give the freedom to Seth, who seemingly isn't the most creative or charismatic person, but not the now-Jon Moxley who is a creative force of nature, wouldn't get that luxury.

  18. #218
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Posts
    519
    I mean Vince McMahon also chose Roman Reigns to be the guy when he wasn't ready to be the guy, put over Dave Batista at the 2014 Royal Rumble when Daniel Bryan was quite clearly the guy to win it (though he did correct that mistake), put Triple H over CM Punk in 2011 for reasons I still don't understand and do I really need to keep going?! We'll be here all day!

    Regardless of how you feel about Vince McMahon, I think we can all agree that he's a strange dude with certain preferences, and even in the best of times is prone to making weird/bad decisions. Assuming this is about one guy getting more freedom than the other, I could totally see him giving Seth more freedom or more opportunities than Moxley strictly because Rollins fits more of what Vince wants. Certainly Rollins has the indie cred but even when he was on the indies many people thought he was a perfect fit for WWE, sort of like a more mainstream looking version of CM Punk and Jeff Hardy because he had the indie pedigree but also looked and acted like a WWE guy. Meanwhile Mox always looked and carried himself sort of like a modern day Raven (albeit a toned down one in WWE), and as seen by how Raven did in WWE, that's the kind of character Vince generally doesn't know what to do with. I think that's part of what endeared him to people like myself when the Shield first split; whereas both Reigns and even Rollins fit the mold, Moxley was the guy you could see being a genuine anti-authority figure like Punk or a riveting psycho like Raven. History has shown us those guys generally don't get as much freedom, or have to fight really hard for it and generally come out on the losing end. It also should be pointed out that Moxley very clearly stated in the Jericho podcast that he got even more scripted once he showed WWE he had comedic timing, which led to them scripting more jokes. I wouldn't be surprised if by being a more dynamic personality than Rollins, Moxley wound up accidentally dooming himself by getting more attention from Vince and thus more scripting.

    Of course I'm not really sure any of them have creative freedom. In the interview Mox did with Wade Keller he was quick to point out that Roman, who you'd think would have even more freedom than anyone else given his stature, was always scripted and constantly frustrated with saying things like the Looney Tunes style promos that crippled his face push in 2015. If Roman doesn't have it, I'm pretty sure almost no one has it, and if that's the case then it's simply a case of Rollins being a guy more comfortable being scripted while Moxley isn't (and that makes sense because again, in terms of character work and promos, Moxley has always come across as the more dynamic performer of the two). Either way I don't think Jon Moxley dropped the ball at all, especially since he was never given the ball to begin with. I think Vince is a guy very set in his ways, Rollins fits that way more than Moxley did and whether that led to more creative freedom for Seth, Seth getting less attention or Seth just being better suited for the scripted era, that's why we're here.


  19. #219
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2019
    Posts
    203
    But the times Vince had bad booking ideas, most could at least understand why. There's nothing in the Vince McMahon playbook that I can think of that says Seth is favored more than Dean. Unless it's something that's not related to what we see in kayfabe.

  20. #220
    Administrator Prime Time's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Posts
    3,529
    Comments from JR's podcast a few days ago.

    I said a year ago when he was hot that it was time to pass the torch, but the WWE let that window of opportunity close - now they're starting back up, of course he got hurt, so I believe that Seth Rollins has been the guy for quite some time there, but it's going to be more of an uphill challenge than it was if WWE had pulled the trigger earlier. I don't know what their hesitancy was on that deal - he's the same guy.

    I'm not crazy about his on-air relationship with Becky Lynch, I don't think it does either one of them any good [...]

    I don't think we can conclusively say that anyone is the best [...] I love the confidence, but it comes off as hollow because you're saying that in a way that can't be measured, so I think it's a waste of time for both guys.


    Thoughts on any of this?

    "The worst moron is the one too stupid to realise they're a moron."

  21. #221
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2019
    Posts
    203
    When he says "waste of time for both guys", is he saying Seth and Becky?

    Either way, I disagree. Seth is not currently a very interesting babyface. He's the typical "I'm a good guy wrestler who is a better athlete than my heel opponent" champion. There's nothing wrong with that, and he's fine, but it's not exciting. It's a crutch, but seeing him with a romantic partner gives him a layer to his character that I feel he needs at this point.

  22. #222
    Administrator Prime Time's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Posts
    3,529
    No, sorry - I can see that wasn't clear from the way I've cut it down. The waste of time for both guys referred to the Rollins/Ospreay twitter back-and-forth.

    "The worst moron is the one too stupid to realise they're a moron."

  23. #223
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Posts
    1,127
    I was thinking about it, and I've come around on Becky being inserted into the dynamic. Just not all the time for PPV matches.. but the reason i'm okay with it is cause Seth needs that friend or someone to bounce off to be more interesting. He had that with the Shield. He even had it when he was authority. The solo act doesn't really work for him cause his promos are pretty basic and he's not funny at all.

    Having said that, The promo they had backstage was dreadful.
    Last edited by LK3185; 07-02-2019 at 10:02 AM.

  24. #224
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2019
    Posts
    203
    Quote Originally Posted by LK3185 View Post
    Seth needs that friend or someone to bounce off to be more interesting. He had that with the Shield. He even had it when he was authority. The solo act doesn't really work for him cause his promos are pretty basic and he's not funny at all.

    Having said that, The promo they had backstage was dreadful.
    Bingo.

    That backstage promo was so weird. Not sure if it was scripting, the improv, or the execution. But it just didn't click.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •