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Thread: Undertaker

  1. #81
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    Does he really have to destroy Elias? Can he not just come out during the show unannounced and retire on the spot?

  2. #82
    Feeling Minnesota Powder's Avatar
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    That would be cool as well. But I think we all see the writing on the wall that he will have one last spot

  3. #83
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    The real question is... how do they handle the retirement the next night on Raw? Can’t really see them doing the whole ordeal like they did with Flair, HBK, etc given the Deadman gimmick and all. But it would be weird if he came out as just Mark Calloway.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by meandi View Post
    The real question is... how do they handle the retirement the next night on Raw? Can’t really see them doing the whole ordeal like they did with Flair, HBK, etc given the Deadman gimmick and all. But it would be weird if he came out as just Mark Calloway.
    I'd be okay with the American Bad ass persona....

  5. #85
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    Get that money. WM is too filled anyways.


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  6. #86
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    I thought the end of Mania 33 was the best thing with Taker's retirement. Just leave the coat and hat in the ring, fire/pyro and all of that, then walk off into the sunset.

    It's why I thought it was weird that they bothered doing what they did last year with him and Cena. They basically gave him the perfect ending.

    Of course, then the Saudi blood money came knocking and WWE had to get him back.

  7. #87
    The Brain
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    And there's more money to be had, so don't count him out yet!

  8. #88
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    So let's be more positive in here than just Taker grinding out more paychecks, what are your top 10 Undertaker matches?

  9. #89
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    I mean, I'm going to pick ones without HBK in them, because that feels a bit like cheating at this stage. No particular order, and I'm only doing 5 because after that I struggled:

    Edge vs Undertaker, Mania 24
    Angle vs Undertaker, No Way Out 2006
    Batista vs Undertaker, Mania 23
    Rock vs Angle vs Undertaker, Vengeance 2002
    Bret Hart vs Undertaker, Summerslam 1997

  10. #90
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    That Bret/Taker match is iconic and is what jump started the Attitude Era, imo. I mean, this is what leads to Montreal and the birth of Mr. McMahon, and in turn to Mania 14 and the rise of SCSA vs McMahon. Watching it live as a 14 year old kid at the time, I had no idea what that match had in store for the next few years after.

  11. #91
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    Here's what I came up with! My 10 favorites, chronologically:

    vs. Bret Hart 1/31/92 WWF MSG (Check it out if you can find it!)
    vs. Vader vs. Steve Austin vs. Bret Hart 2/16/97 WWF Final Four
    vs. Shawn Michaels, Hell in a Cell 10/5/97 WWF Badd Blood
    vs. Shawn Michaels, Casket 1/18/98 WWF Royal Rumble
    vs. Brock Lesnar, Hell in a Cell 10/20/02 WWE No Mercy
    vs. Kurt Angle 2/19/06 WWE No Way Out
    vs. Edge 3/30/08 WWE Wrestlemania XXIV
    vs. Edge, TLC 6/1/08 WWE One Night Stand
    vs. Edge, Hell in a Cell 8/17/08 WWE Summerslam
    vs. Shawn Michaels 4/5/09 WWE Wrestlemania XXV

  12. #92
    Administrator Prime Time's Avatar
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    I don't know that 1992 match, I'll have to track it down. I'm one of those people that doesn't think the deadman stuff is necessarily 'bad', even though it looks unlike pretty much anyone else's work, so it could be a very interesting one for me. Plus I enjoy all their later matches.

    "The worst moron is the one too stupid to realise they're a moron."

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  14. #94
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    I guess this should go here...

    Mark Henry gave an interview about the Taker/Goldberg match, and this is one of his quotes:

    Both of those guys deserve the respect and admiration from our fans and from us. You can’t judge ’em on their primes, guys. It is almost sacrilege to expect a man in his 50s to be the man that they were at 35. You live for the moment, don’t live for the past … you gotta live in the now in pro wrestling. We talk about it all the time. Why you rushing it? Let it build! Enjoy the story. But we didn’t do that. And I was aggravated as hell about it.
    But that is the exact problem with having 2 guys over 50 still wrestling on their names from the past. These guys should hang up their boots and retire. They have nothing left to prove and Goldberg is already a Hall of Famer and Taker is probably one of the top 5 wrestlers of all time, and will be a HOFer.

    Henry cannot tell fans who and how to cheer. It is like any other sport. When the stars are past their prime and stinking up the joint, they get booed. Look to the NFL. Eli Manning is revered in NY for winning 2 Superbowls AND for beating the Patriots, but in the past few years he has been performing well below his past glory and is getting booed. All the talk radio and fans keep talking about letting Eli go and finding the next QB. Where is Mark Henry (or someone akin to him - like Michael Strahan) coming out and saying that the fans shouldn't boo Eli because he is not performing well, when that is what the fans want.

    I didn't watch Super Showdown, but I read about how bad the match was, and the fans wanted better, so if they paid for their ticket or Network subscription they have every right to complain about the poor quality. The customer is upset with the poor quality of the product and is voicing their opinion about it.

    The easy fix is for Vince to say that both men need to stop performing for the company in the Ring.

    Whenever Taker is inducted into the Hall of Fame, there should be a smaller class to allow the one true beacon of the WWE to get a longer speech. He has been loyal to the company for 29 years and has been the best WWF/E product they have ever produced. Yes better than Hogan (his WCW run is part of his legacy), better than Austin (he developed his persona in ECW), and better than the Rock (he left). Taker stayed through the WCW days, when he could have left, and Taker has been the one constant for nearly 30 years. He outlasted everyone, including the new stars.

    Taker is just embarrassing himself now and the fans are not happy with what he is now, because they remember what he was, and in my opinion, the booing is a result of telling him, it is time to go.

    So again, who is Mark Henry telling people who paid their money how to react?
    Last edited by Powder; 06-13-2019 at 11:07 AM.

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powder View Post
    Taker is just embarrassing himself now and the fans are not happy with what he is now, because they remember what he was, and in my opinion, the booing is a result of telling him, it is time to go.
    But you didn't see the match, you "read about how bad the match was" online from a subset of fans who are predisposed to automatically hate a match with "2 guys over 50 still wrestling".

    The truth, from someone who watched it specifically because I wanted to see a trainwreck, is that Taker didn't embarrass himself. He had a really good 2019 Undertaker match. The only thing that he didn't really nail was when he dropped Goldberg on his head with the tombstone -- but even that could be be chalked up to a concussed Goldberg not holding tight enough on his end.

    If Goldberg hadn't hit the post with his dome and split himself open, we'd probably be talking about how the two had a shockingly good match. And even with the injury, they still managed to keep it together outside of a couple major botches.

    Mark Henry isn't telling people what to feel or how to react. He's telling people to give these two guys, his friends, a break. Boo the match that night, but recognize it as what it was and let it go. Why are people still shitting on it a week later?

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powder View Post
    Henry cannot tell fans who and how to cheer.
    I agree. But you just said...
    Quote Originally Posted by Powder View Post
    These guys should hang up their boots and retire.
    And, that's hypocritical. If Henry can't suggest to fans how to react, then you can't tell the wrestlers how to react. It goes both ways.

    And you're way off about the reception of the match. Yes, it was a trainwreck by the end. But nobody was booing these guys the way you're saying NFL fans are for Eli. And unlike football where there is only one QB, wrestling is an ensemble of stars. And these guys only had one match. There's no comparison.

    Successful Wrestling booking is variety. All spots, or all hardcore, or all technical wrestling is doomed to fail. But a bit of everything is the way to go. And part of that variety is legend dream matches. You don't have to like it, just like I don't have to like any the Young Bucks do in the ring. But you shoukld understand that just because something isn't to your liking, does not mean other people can't enjoy it.

  17. #97
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    Like I said, I watched it the next morning to see a completely abortion and I was actually disappointed because all the reaction made me think I was getting something unwatchable, but 80% of the match wasn't bad.

  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Farrell View Post
    Like I said, I watched it the next morning to see a completely abortion and I was actually disappointed because all the reaction made me think I was getting something unwatchable, but 80% of the match wasn't bad.
    Did you enjoy the Brock vs Goldberg's series?

  19. #99
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    I did. I thought that it was something completely different from what they normally do and it was exactly what it needed to be.

    But I'm also a believer that a match does't have to be a 30 minute gymnastic routine to be great. Lesnar vs Brock as WrestleMania was five minutes long and that's exactly what that match should be.

  20. #100
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    COME ON PEN, BZZZT WRONG HIM ALREADY!

    It's what the people want.

    I was on the record for absolutely loving Brock vs Goldberg in 2016. The Mania match was a foregone conclusion to how it went, but that's a good thing. WWE went the logical route for that match, which they rarely seem to do lately.
    Last edited by T.O.; 06-13-2019 at 02:34 PM.

  21. #101
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    This is why I'm glad I came back. I loved that Wrestlemania match. I'm sure there were better ones that might, but the impression that balls to the wall match made on me makes it my favorite of the night. It's in fact why I enjoy Brock more than most. It's still logical, all story telling matches, but it's so different and to the point.

  22. #102
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    I'm still baffled as to what the naysayers truly expected out of Goldberg vs Brock freaking Lesnar. We weren't gonna get Angle/Benoit, people...

  23. #103
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    You guys are arguing into the wind. Most people loved that Lesnar-Goldberg match and still do. It's not considered the greatest match ever but for what it was people loved it. Those who don't are a small minority.

    Quote Originally Posted by Team Farrell View Post
    If Goldberg hadn't hit the post with his dome and split himself open, we'd probably be talking about how the two had a shockingly good match. And even with the injury, they still managed to keep it together outside of a couple major botches.
    Yes because when I think of a match being kept together, I think of one where one guy drops the other one on his head because he can't do his move properly, followed by the other guy doing the exact same thing, all of which followed the first guy ramming his head into the post and concussing himself. That's not holding it together; that's a catastrophe. This match was a catastrophe, and I don't see how it can be labeled as anything else (regardless of what you thought the rest of the quality was) when it involved a clearly concussed man being allowed to continue minutes after the match should've been stopped.

    You want to know why people are shitting on the match a week later? That's why. They're also shitting on Mark Henry because he's telling people not to expect guys in their 50's to perform at a high level when not even a month ago Henry saw, in person mind you, 50 year old Dustin Rhodes have arguably the greatest performance of his career, off of double knee surgery and with an opponent who (all due respect to Cody Rhodes) isn't exactly known for his ring work. Meanwhile in Japan guys like Minoru Suzuki and Yuji Nagata (both over 50) are better than ever, and 59 year old Negro Casas just had another tremendous match two weeks ago, in a decade loaded with them (and like Rhodes, he too just returned from a severe injury). I get Mark Henry is defending his pals and not every situation is the same, but you can't sit there and say "it is almost sacrilege to expect a man in his 50s to be the man that they were at 35" when there are several guys who are doing just that in the business right now! That's why he's getting criticized here, and rightfully so.


  24. #104
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    Oh but a LOT of people hated the first one (2016, not 2004). I'm still mad at that hate.

  25. #105
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    I think a lot of people hated it because it took the title away from the KO/Jericho match when it didn’t need it.

  26. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Cult Icon View Post
    Yes because when I think of a match being kept together, I think of one where one guy drops the other one on his head because he can't do his move properly, followed by the other guy doing the exact same thing, all of which followed the first guy ramming his head into the post and concussing himself. That's not holding it together; that's a catastrophe. This match was a catastrophe, and I don't see how it can be labeled as anything else (regardless of what you thought the rest of the quality was) when it involved a clearly concussed man being allowed to continue minutes after the match should've been stopped.
    I hated when Henry started giving Goldberg credit for finishing the match with a concussion and being a tough guy for working through it. Like you said, it was completely idiotic to keep going as serious injuries could have happened. With all this stuff about head trauma and concussions, it's not about toughness it's about being smart. A travesty.

  27. #107
    Super Moderator Team Farrell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cult Icon View Post
    Yes because when I think of a match being kept together, I think of one where one guy drops the other one on his head because he can't do his move properly, followed by the other guy doing the exact same thing, all of which followed the first guy ramming his head into the post and concussing himself. That's not holding it together; that's a catastrophe. This match was a catastrophe, and I don't see how it can be labeled as anything else (regardless of what you thought the rest of the quality was) when it involved a clearly concussed man being allowed to continue minutes after the match should've been stopped.
    Same question as to Powder: did you actually watch the match, or are you going based off of gifs and wrestling Twitter?

    Because the three things that you mentioned are the major botches that I admitted the match had. But that was a 10 minute match with much more than those three moves.

    Goldberg couldn't get Taker up for the Jackhammer, probably because of his concussion. Taker dropped Goldberg on his head with that Tombstone, again probably because Goldberg couldn't hold on tightly due to being rocked (I used to do that move all the time and stopped because of the number of guys who weren't comfortable that they could hold on).

    But everything outside of those three botches was the incredible, legendary veteran Undertaker keeping it together. They ran through some of Taker's signature spots and had a great intensity. Even with the post shot, if those other two spots hadn't gone south, we would be talking about how surprisingly well these two guys did.

    Should it have been stopped? Absolutely! But for all we know the Saudi secret police would have arrested the referee or some shit if he had. However, that's not the only match that weekend I saw that probably should have been stopped for the safety of those involved, nor is it the worst case I've seen of someone ringing their bell in a match that wasn't stopped.

    EDIT: And all respect to Cody and Dustin, they had a level of emotion built in to that match that superseded everything and a fan base that wanted to like that match. If it had been on a WWE show, people would be ragging Dustin for not being able to nail his weird under the rope spin thing or both guys for even attempting a running spanish fly.

  28. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Farrell View Post
    Same question as to Powder: did you actually watch the match, or are you going based off of gifs and wrestling Twitter?

    Because the three things that you mentioned are the major botches that I admitted the match had. But that was a 10 minute match with much more than those three moves.
    You seem to have miunderstood me; I don't care how the rest of the match went. The rest of the match could've Hollywood Hogan vs. Warrior or Kenny Omega vs. Kazuchika Okada IV. So what; the only thing that matters is that Goldberg rammed his head into the post, dropped Taker on his head and got dropped on his head all after he had been concussed. That's now supposed to be holding a match together? That's what our standard is now? Holding a match together is Bret Hart performing a miracle with an unfit, blown up Davey Boy Smith at Summerslam 1992. This wasn't holding it together; this was a match that never should've existed to begin with where a guy concussed himself early in the match and was then allowed to lift his opponent up in the air for a move that could've ended disastrously and was allowed to take two moves (the chokeslam and the tombstone) where it could've end badly. The first ended badly, the second ended badly and they were lucky that the chokeslam didn't end badly given how awkward that move was. That isn't holding it together; that's a train wreck. If you want to overlook that for the rest of the match or enjoy the rest of the match then that's your prerogative, but don't sit here and tell me they held it together when the final stretch of that match was Taker dropping Goldberg on his head, Goldberg then dropped Taker on his head, they then botched another Tombstone spot (which by the way, may have been the original plan and if so, that's even more unforgivable given what had just happened) and then had that awkward Chokeslam spot. That's not holding it together.

    And don't bring up Kota Ibushi vs. Tetsuya Naito (which you for some reason didn't want to name) or any other instance where a match hasn't been stopped. Should Ibushi vs. Naito have been stopped after that bump, even if Ibushi wasn't hurt? 100%. Should any other match where something terrible has happened been stopped? 100%. Guess what; NONE of that excuses Goldberg vs. Undertaker going on. If I'm an asshole, that then doesn't give you a pass to be an asshole; it only reinforces the fact that we're both assholes. All bringing up Ibushi-Naito does is reinforce that New Japan was stupid for continuing that match and that WWE was stupid for going on with that match. I don't want to hear that whataboutism. The only way that match was justified in continuing is if the Saudi Arabian government threatened to kill everyone in WWE if they stopped the match. And gee, doesn't that then open up the conversation of why you'd do business with a place like that in the first place.


  29. #109
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    *insert popcorn GIF*

  30. #110
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    Put the popcorn down and put House back on! Just a disagreement between friends. Plus I'm not even giving my best work. I only save that for my upcoming AEW All Out match with Canadian wrestling legend Sydney Steele. Skitz' freedom is on the line.


  31. #111
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    Fine, but I also am taking online courses on how to reprogram the Steinerbot. It shall be mine soon enough.

  32. #112
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    If I may...

    Quote Originally Posted by Cult Icon View Post
    this was a match that never should've existed to begin with
    What makes you say that? If both men were willing to do it, and it was obvious that many fans were excited for it, why shouldn't it go on?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cult Icon View Post
    The only way that match was justified in continuing is if the Saudi Arabian government threatened to kill everyone in WWE if they stopped the match. And gee, doesn't that then open up the conversation of why you'd do business with a place like that in the first place.
    First, I'll state that I didn't watch the match, so I could be way off.

    But I disagree. I think had they booked this at WrestleMania, they would have handled it the same way. No proof to say that either way, because main event injuries are thankfully rare. None of us have any idea how they would have handled this had it happened at Mania, or Backlash, or if this was only allowed because it was forced by Saudi Arabia.

    While not making excuses for anyone in any promotion, but it's very tough to figure out how bad some injuries are, especially head related ones, during a match. This wasn't Sid jumping from the second turnbuckle with the obvious visual. We've seen people hit their foreheads and be fine. I'm not saying there aren't long term repercussions, but it makes the scenario much less simple to say "end the match." Even in the modern era of the concussion concerns, we've seen close calls to head injuries and the match kept going. I won't doubt that the high pressure scenario of Saudi Arabia was a factor, but I don't think it's the only factor, which is why had this been a special attraction at SummerSlam in Toronto for 20k fans, they would have handled it the same way.

    Again, I haven't seen it, but I have not heard that it was visually obvious that Goldberg looked drunk, stumbling around. And even then, it could be selling. Wrestling is VERY tough to say in the moment that an injury is severe enough to end the match, when the whole act is faking being hurt.

  33. #113
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    *insert chicken GIF*

  34. #114
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    Why chicken?


  35. #115
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    I'm hungry.

    ...remember, you wanted me back here. This is the quality I provide.

  36. #116
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    I was just curious about the chicken. Like why not homemade macaroni and cheese instead?


  37. #117
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    No nutritional value? That's why I would prefer chicken

  38. #118
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    Hey I like chicken as much as the next dude or dudette out there. Which is why I always go with both. You have a piece of chicken (properly seasoned with pepper and McCormick's Montreal Chicken seasoning) for the protein and then the homemade mac and cheese for the fun. You'll be happier than mizfan after he's watched the Top Banana video.


  39. #119
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    *insert sexy Randy Orton GIF*

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