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  1. #321
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    EVERYTHING is more interesting than Seth Rollins. Alright maybe not everything; Seth rates above the overrated bland express that is Finn Balor.


  2. #322
    Transgender Terror
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    Get poked.

  3. #323
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    Can you repeat that? I couldn't hear you over the sound of Finn Balor sucking.


  4. #324
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    I wish...

  5. #325
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    He certainly isn't the type of draw who should lead the company. I don't think he's completely uninteresting, but comparing him to most of the roster, Seth just doesn't match up to the star power potential of way too many others. Seth is a great wrestler, but we aren't that far out of the time when Christian wasn't viewed as a top main event guy, yet there's absolutely nothing Seth does that is better than Christian. Not charisma, not in ring skill, not look... Christian is superior in every possible way (except excitement in the ring, depending on taste for high flying and flips).

    Seth is fine as the Universal champion, but he needs a better foil than Baron Corbin to bring that out. WWE's roster is packed in so many ways that even as a fan of Baron, there are too many people who can be across the ring from Seth and bring more out of a program with him. The problem isn't that Corbin is the best option, it's that there's no one who's been booked in a way to be credible on Raw to be in that top spot, except for Corbin. If the brand split was enforced, the only other heels on the brand who deserve a main event spot would be Lashley, McIntyre, Samoa Joe and Styles, and all of them have suffered recent or big losses that drop them out of title contention. Judging by booking, Lashley might be next at SummerSlam (if he beats Braun) or McIntyre if he's not still facing Undertaker or Roman Reigns. Or, Brock, obviously.

  6. #326
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    You know what he needs? nWo era Hulk Hogan. That feud would draw, amirite T.O.?


  7. #327
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    At least a Roddy Piper level persona.

    Hogan was playing the bass guitar at Tootsie's Bar and Grill when Piper was fighting for his life at 15 years old.

  8. #328
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    Quote Originally Posted by PEN15v2 View Post
    He certainly isn't the type of draw who should lead the company. I don't think he's completely uninteresting, but comparing him to most of the roster, Seth just doesn't match up to the star power potential of way too many others. Seth is a great wrestler, but we aren't that far out of the time when Christian wasn't viewed as a top main event guy, yet there's absolutely nothing Seth does that is better than Christian. Not charisma, not in ring skill, not look... Christian is superior in every possible way (except excitement in the ring, depending on taste for high flying and flips).
    I have a question:

    Is Seth Rollins to 2019 what Bret Hart was to, say, 1994? We're in a "new era" with the previous top guy on his way out or gone, experiencing some growing pains, but we have this more "modern style" guy on top of the card who, while an incredible in-ring performer isn't an all time great promo, doesn't have the most charisma and is all around not the type of guy WWE would typically push to the top.

    I'm a fan of Bret's work -- despite my thoughts on the guy all around -- but he's a fucking bore. He could pull a good in-ring match out of anyone, but wasn't going to sell out arenas without the right opponent.

    Are we missing Seth's Shawn Michaels? That guy who can keep up with Bret, but has that undeniable edge, charisma and attitude to oppose him.

    Seth's so white bread. Does he need an Adam Cole (or, being crazy, Velveteen Dream) with some real personality who comes off as the exact opposite of White Bread Seth to be his foil? Could someone like ECIII fill that role?

  9. #329
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    Just pump Bryan full of coke and send him to RAW. Problem solved.

  10. #330
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    The better comparison for Seth is actually HBK. Bret Hart wasn't a draw the same way a Ric Flair or a Hulk Hogan was in the 80s, but he was still a respectable draw as top guy and most importantly was a huge draw in Canada and overseas, something Rollins has never come close to accomplishing last I checked. Meanwhile Michaels was overall a pretty shitty draw. We forget this now but his run as champion in 1996 was putrid from a business perspective. Some of that is definitely because of WCW getting hot, but the fact remains that HBK had the chance to establish himself as the undisputed star of WWE with guys like Bret gone and Nash and Hall leaving, and in the end all his run produced was a few good matches, declining business and the fans slowly turning on him until they completely did at Survivor Series 1996. Hell, the Royal Rumble in 1997 was in his hometown, was built around him winning the title back and WWE had to paper the shit out of that show just to fill the building up. Michaels is definitely a legend, but I think his most recent run masks the fact that when he was first given the ball he was not a strong draw. Great wrestler but not a draw. Seth is the same.


  11. #331
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    Quote Originally Posted by PEN15v2 View Post
    the only other heels on the brand who deserve a main event spot would be Lashley, McIntyre, Samoa Joe and Styles, and all of them have suffered recent or big losses that drop them out of title contention. Judging by booking, Lashley might be next at SummerSlam (if he beats Braun) or McIntyre if he's not still facing Undertaker or Roman Reigns. Or, Brock, obviously.
    None of those matches interest me lol. I like most of the talent mentioned (including Seth) but the intriging matches aren't really there unless booking drastically changes under Heyman.

  12. #332
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Farrell View Post
    Is Seth Rollins to 2019 what Bret Hart was to, say, 1994? We're in a "new era" with the previous top guy on his way out or gone, experiencing some growing pains, but we have this more "modern style" guy on top of the card who, while an incredible in-ring performer isn't an all time great promo, doesn't have the most charisma and is all around not the type of guy WWE would typically push to the top.
    I'm a fan of Bret's work -- despite my thoughts on the guy all around -- but he's a fucking bore. He could pull a good in-ring match out of anyone, but wasn't going to sell out arenas without the right opponent.
    Are we missing Seth's Shawn Michaels? That guy who can keep up with Bret, but has that undeniable edge, charisma and attitude to oppose him.
    Seth's so white bread. Does he need an Adam Cole (or, being crazy, Velveteen Dream) with some real personality who comes off as the exact opposite of White Bread Seth to be his foil? Could someone like ECIII fill that role?
    You might be right, but the reason I don’t think so is that in Bret’s era, WWF tried with other people and it failed. Bret got the title in 92 at an untelevised house show (that was eventually released to VHS). There are a few reasons for that, including Flair not being cleared to wrestle after an injury from a match vs Warrior, and the steroid scandal. But even with those factors, Bret’s run was backburner. Vince did everything he could to not make Bret the face of the company, until Mania X. And in that time, the only memorable feud (or angle with a Shawn Michaels, to stick with your reference) was with Owen Hart. Well, Jerry Lawler too, but the memories of that feud aren’t nearly as fond.
    Seth meanwhile won the title from Brock Lesnar at WrestleMania. That’s something Roman can’t even say. And even then, did they get there because Vince or someone said “Seth’s the guy to do it”, or because once Roman had to drop out of the title scene for the cancer treatments, Vince saw how depleted the roster was from all the one way booking they’ve done over the years. I’m not going into a rant about 50/50 booking, because I don’t believe that’s necessarily a bad thing and that it’s overblown online by fans who really aren’t seeing the big picture. But, the roster has been used to push Roman (and others, but mostly him) more than other options, and then it left a big gaping hole at the top of the card. And things aren’t improving so far with no heels for Seth to work with, who either all lost to Roman before the cancer scare, or since the scare (in the case of Drew).

    This isn’t to say Seth is a lost cause, or that finding the right foil can’t fix things. I just don’t think Vince is as stuck for options today as he was in 92-96. Seth might be like Bret Hart, but unlike in that era, there’s also Roman, Braun, New Day (Big E is a superstar whenever WWE decides to push him), AJ, Black, Andrade, Bryan, Owens…etc. I’m not saying they are better than Seth, but they all have something that could put them in that spot and belong. If it would work or if the booking would be there is always unpredictable from the armchair.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cult Icon View Post
    The better comparison for Seth is actually HBK. Bret Hart wasn't a draw the same way a Ric Flair or a Hulk Hogan was in the 80s, but he was still a respectable draw as top guy and most importantly was a huge draw in Canada and overseas, something Rollins has never come close to accomplishing last I checked. Meanwhile Michaels was overall a pretty shitty draw. We forget this now but his run as champion in 1996 was putrid from a business perspective. Some of that is definitely because of WCW getting hot, but the fact remains that HBK had the chance to establish himself as the undisputed star of WWE with guys like Bret gone and Nash and Hall leaving, and in the end all his run produced was a few good matches, declining business and the fans slowly turning on him until they completely did at Survivor Series 1996. Hell, the Royal Rumble in 1997 was in his hometown, was built around him winning the title back and WWE had to paper the shit out of that show just to fill the building up. Michaels is definitely a legend, but I think his most recent run masks the fact that when he was first given the ball he was not a strong draw. Great wrestler but not a draw. Seth is the same.
    I disagree and put Shawn on the same level as Bret in terms of drawing. I’m not claiming the numbers are equal, because they aren’t. You’re not wrong in anything you say. But once Bret was an international star, WWF milked that dry. By the time they focused on Shawn, there was much more than just WCW gaining steam going against him. WCW didn’t have to exist for Shawn to fail as the top guy in his gimmick at the time. He was such a great arrogant heel who turned face and changed… nothing. He was still arrogant, but he high fived kids on his way to the ring now. Bret's interaction with the fans looked more genuine, because it was. HBK was likely too high on Somas to give a toss about the fans, so that was also a factor. But anyone could have replaced Bret and not had the same popularity if their babyface character was be Bret-lite, but act sexier, or whatever it was.
    Basically, if you reverse the order of who became champ, I think Bret would have failed after following Shawn. And in the end, both aren’t really good draws because they weren’t SUPERSTARS like Hogan, Austin, and Cena were.

    Quote Originally Posted by LK3185 View Post
    None of those matches interest me lol. I like most of the talent mentioned (including Seth) but the intriging matches aren't really there unless booking drastically changes under Heyman.
    Yeah, they aren’t super exciting to me either. Which goes to my point about the depleted credibility of the roster. The talent is there. But it’ll be hard to care.

  13. #333
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    its a different era honestly in the respect that WWE doesn't need one guy to carry them. Their plan is to build stars, male or female and hope one of them gets hot like Bryan or Becky.. but unfortuntely, the star making machine is a bit broken. So the company can break even or even make profits, but very few people feel like actual stars. Hell, right now Shane McMahon feels like the biggest star in the company. And that's a problem with his push.

  14. #334
    Honestly, I don't have an issue with Baron feuding with Seth for the title when we know Baron won't win it. Every title reign needs a filler feud of some kind so we don't cash in all of our chips immediately on the meaningful ones. Triple H had a filler feud with Scott Steiner in 2003, John Cena had the filler feud with R-Truth in 2011, etc. The current feud with Seth Rollins and Baron Corbin is just a way to get the whole Becky Lynch/Seth Rollins couple thing over since we added Becky and Lacey into the match (Though, I am not entirely sure what the end goal is with incorporating Becky Lynch and Seth Rollins' relationship into storylines).

  15. #335
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    Quote Originally Posted by LifeLostInRewind View Post
    Honestly, I don't have an issue with Baron feuding with Seth for the title when we know Baron won't win it. Every title reign needs a filler feud of some kind so we don't cash in all of our chips immediately on the meaningful ones. Triple H had a filler feud with Scott Steiner in 2003, John Cena had the filler feud with R-Truth in 2011, etc. The current feud with Seth Rollins and Baron Corbin is just a way to get the whole Becky Lynch/Seth Rollins couple thing over since we added Becky and Lacey into the match (Though, I am not entirely sure what the end goal is with incorporating Becky Lynch and Seth Rollins' relationship into storylines).
    I almost agree with you. I don't agree that every title reign needs a filler feud. If you said (or meant to say) that every fresh top face needs a feud where they come out on top, and that it can sometimes feel like filler, than yes I agree. Whenever any WrestleMania ended with a new face on top of the company/brand/division, they need to give that new champion a feud or angle to overcome. They feel like filler, but they actually serve a great purpose. Starting with "Boyhood Dream" Shawn Michaels, we knew Diesel was leaving, and British Bulldog never had a chance to win the title, but those angles helped to establish HBK as the future. Vader was when there was a risk of HBK losing the title. 2 years later, Austin worked with Foley in an amazing angle, but looking back ,you know there was no chance Dude Love was walking away WWF champion (though they did a great job making it seem like he could). Another example is Kane challenging Daniel Bryan. It was widely criticized, and rightfully so because of how it was executed. But Bryan's former tag partner, who is also a former World Champion, makes sense as a challenger where Daniel could get a significant win after the original victory. There was a logic to it, even if it didn't work out on TV.

    So Seth working with Corbin works for me. I wish they could tell a better story where the title is genuinely at risk, and I think this Winner Takes All match is the best job at doing that so far. But we both know Becky and Seth will have a SummerSlam title defense, and while I don't really know who the opponents will be, I'm guessing it'll be a better draw than Baron.

    And honestly, Baron is nailing his work these days. No heel (other than Shane) is as strongly hated, and WWE have attempted (and at least partially succeeded) merging the supposed "go-away" heat, into genuine heat. This isn't to say Baron is amazing, or the heel of the future the way Kurt Angle seemed to be insinuating lately. But in WWE 2019, where there are no credible heels, Baron is a great option to help establish Seth before Rollins moves on to Lesnar or Lashley or whoever the SummerSlam challenger (or challengers) will be.

  16. #336
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    Quote Originally Posted by LK3185 View Post
    its a different era honestly in the respect that WWE doesn't need one guy to carry them. Their plan is to build stars, male or female and hope one of them gets hot like Bryan or Becky.. but unfortuntely, the star making machine is a bit broken. So the company can break even or even make profits, but very few people feel like actual stars. Hell, right now Shane McMahon feels like the biggest star in the company. And that's a problem with his push.
    But to say that WWE doesn't need one person to carry them, and at the same time say that nobody feels like actual stars is the exact problem.

    Traditionally, you have a pretty clear divide on the card. The top guys are the top guys, and everyone else is below them. There are guys just below the top guys, and everyone else is below them. And so on down the line. Today everyone is equal, or close to it. ECIII could go out and have a competitive match with Roman Reigns on Raw next week and nobody would bat an eye, despite ECIII being a 24/7 YouTube guy.

    But, if someone gets pushed too far above other people (especially too far above the internet fans' favourites) they're "overpushed" or "shoved down our throats" and boo'd. Shit, Ronda Rousey was one of the most over stars on the entire roster. She was cheered everywhere, until it was decided that her push was too hard and she hadn't been beaten and she hadn't "earned it" by toiling away for years paying dues on the indies, so the crowd turned on her. WWE leaned in to it, but she was a victim of it being decided that her push was too hard and fickle fans moving on to the next.

    Also contributing to this neverending loop is the lack of true heels. Without strong heels that have actual heat and aren't always made to look like cowards and fools, there's no reason to truly get behind a babyface. It's why the heel authority figure trope has become so ingrained. Because that authority figure ultimately has the power, can get real heat and isn't going to look like a fool every outing. Unfortunately, it only really works if you have a Mr. McMahon (or Baron Corbin as Raw GM) who can get a match into the ring.

    We have this atmosphere where people are going to cheer whomever they want because they like them as a person or respect their character or their work or whatever. But if you have people that you have legitimate heat with, that you can't bring yourself to cheer, it must be "go away heat", otherwise I'd like their character or their work and want to cheer them.

    Wrestling has stopped being that visceral, true, gut feeling and turned into something for laughs. You chuckle along with the heel doing bad things, because you know it isn't real and he's actually a nice guy whose work you respect. You don't really give a shit about the babyface or want to see him get his revenge and beat that heel to death, because the heel doesn't have heat and you have no dog in that fight.

    Until wrestling can recapture that, no company is going to make a true star. Kenny Omega won't be one, Roman Reigns won't be one, Ali won't be one. Nobody will be one until you can get people to invest emotionally in them, and nobody will invest emotionally in them until you stop worrying about "go away heat", get some real heat on these heels and take this shit seriously.

  17. #337
    Quote Originally Posted by Team Farrell
    But to say that WWE doesn't need one person to carry them, and at the same time say that nobody feels like actual stars is the exact problem.

    Traditionally, you have a pretty clear divide on the card. The top guys are the top guys, and everyone else is below them. There are guys just below the top guys, and everyone else is below them. And so on down the line. Today everyone is equal, or close to it. ECIII could go out and have a competitive match with Roman Reigns on Raw next week and nobody would bat an eye, despite ECIII being a 24/7 YouTube guy.

    But, if someone gets pushed too far above other people (especially too far above the internet fans' favourites) they're "overpushed" or "shoved down our throats" and boo'd. Shit, Ronda Rousey was one of the most over stars on the entire roster. She was cheered everywhere, until it was decided that her push was too hard and she hadn't been beaten and she hadn't "earned it" by toiling away for years paying dues on the indies, so the crowd turned on her. WWE leaned in to it, but she was a victim of it being decided that her push was too hard and fickle fans moving on to the next.

    Also contributing to this neverending loop is the lack of true heels. Without strong heels that have actual heat and aren't always made to look like cowards and fools, there's no reason to truly get behind a babyface. It's why the heel authority figure trope has become so ingrained. Because that authority figure ultimately has the power, can get real heat and isn't going to look like a fool every outing. Unfortunately, it only really works if you have a Mr. McMahon (or Baron Corbin as Raw GM) who can get a match into the ring.

    We have this atmosphere where people are going to cheer whomever they want because they like them as a person or respect their character or their work or whatever. But if you have people that you have legitimate heat with, that you can't bring yourself to cheer, it must be "go away heat", otherwise I'd like their character or their work and want to cheer them.

    Wrestling has stopped being that visceral, true, gut feeling and turned into something for laughs. You chuckle along with the heel doing bad things, because you know it isn't real and he's actually a nice guy whose work you respect. You don't really give a shit about the babyface or want to see him get his revenge and beat that heel to death, because the heel doesn't have heat and you have no dog in that fight.

    Until wrestling can recapture that, no company is going to make a true star. Kenny Omega won't be one, Roman Reigns won't be one, Ali won't be one. Nobody will be one until you can get people to invest emotionally in them, and nobody will invest emotionally in them until you stop worrying about "go away heat", get some real heat on these heels and take this shit seriously.
    Wish I could rep or like this post. Very on point!

    Twitter: @libsuperstar

  18. #338
    It was NXT but Tomasso Ciampa was that heel you despised. Since the injury those great videos they are doing on his recovery are ruining that image, but it is what it is.

  19. #339
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Farrell View Post
    But to say that WWE doesn't need one person to carry them, and at the same time say that nobody feels like actual stars is the exact problem.
    Traditionally, you have a pretty clear divide on the card. The top guys are the top guys, and everyone else is below them. There are guys just below the top guys, and everyone else is below them. And so on down the line. Today everyone is equal, or close to it. ECIII could go out and have a competitive match with Roman Reigns on Raw next week and nobody would bat an eye, despite ECIII being a 24/7 YouTube guy.
    But, if someone gets pushed too far above other people (especially too far above the internet fans' favourites) they're "overpushed" or "shoved down our throats" and boo'd. Shit, Ronda Rousey was one of the most over stars on the entire roster. She was cheered everywhere, until it was decided that her push was too hard and she hadn't been beaten and she hadn't "earned it" by toiling away for years paying dues on the indies, so the crowd turned on her. WWE leaned in to it, but she was a victim of it being decided that her push was too hard and fickle fans moving on to the next.
    Also contributing to this neverending loop is the lack of true heels. Without strong heels that have actual heat and aren't always made to look like cowards and fools, there's no reason to truly get behind a babyface. It's why the heel authority figure trope has become so ingrained. Because that authority figure ultimately has the power, can get real heat and isn't going to look like a fool every outing. Unfortunately, it only really works if you have a Mr. McMahon (or Baron Corbin as Raw GM) who can get a match into the ring.
    We have this atmosphere where people are going to cheer whomever they want because they like them as a person or respect their character or their work or whatever. But if you have people that you have legitimate heat with, that you can't bring yourself to cheer, it must be "go away heat", otherwise I'd like their character or their work and want to cheer them.
    Wrestling has stopped being that visceral, true, gut feeling and turned into something for laughs. You chuckle along with the heel doing bad things, because you know it isn't real and he's actually a nice guy whose work you respect. You don't really give a shit about the babyface or want to see him get his revenge and beat that heel to death, because the heel doesn't have heat and you have no dog in that fight.
    Until wrestling can recapture that, no company is going to make a true star. Kenny Omega won't be one, Roman Reigns won't be one, Ali won't be one. Nobody will be one until you can get people to invest emotionally in them, and nobody will invest emotionally in them until you stop worrying about "go away heat", get some real heat on these heels and take this shit seriously.
    I agree for the most part, but I needed to highlight something you said as untrue. About Ronda, fans didn’t suddenly turn on her, and I really don’t think it had much to do with her not earning her way. The turn started when other stars started outshining her. Ronda was getting great reactions until Becky became the Man, and Charlotte was in the mix. Ignoring that factor is doing a major disservice to the argument. Fans definitely are fickle, and are known to turn on people they loved at the drop of a dime, but that’s not a very good example of it.
    The women’s division is also with a very shallow talent pool across the globe. I’m not saying women all suck, and I don’t need anyone listing who they think is awesome. I’m just saying that with WWE giving the women about 25% of the TV time of SD and Raw, the talent pool doesn’t match that need. So female wrestlers lose their luster quicker due to over exposure. Charlotte is legitimately a tremendous wrestler, but won’t be given credit for it because she’s been such a focus for so long. Which obviously goes to your argument of fans feeling she’s “overpushed”. That’s obviously an actual argument, but a deeply flawed one. She’s pushed more than most, but she’s also delivered more than most. That won’t ever be recognized.

    Which is the point of the turn against Ronda. Others were also delivering, but weren’t the focus. That’s what it comes down to. Most complaints are about people being overpushed, but it’s really that their favorites aren’t pushed enough. And that won’t go away with WWE’s immense roster. There’s always going to be someone lower on the card than they should be in someone’s opinion. That will create the exact resentment we’re talking about.

    It’s a shame how much the louder hardcore fans want to steer the entire product towards their own tastes, ignoring what anyone else cares for. With the wealth of wrestling out there, it’s never been easier for a fan to switch the channel, or stream, to find something you prefer. Instead, they’d rather hijack and takeover, which ruins the fun for everyone.

  20. #340
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    People are going to want more for their favorites and the way WWE does things lately with the lack of good storylines,maybe because how the fans are, all anyone has to hold onto is their faves..and not only that, talent that’s worked in NXT but don’t get a push on the main roster breeds that resentment .

    Everybody is going to have a different opinion on wrestlers, this isn’t a real sport where you can look at stats and see who is the best.. for example, I don’t really care for Charlotte. Don’t even think she’s top five women’s wrestler in WWE and so when she would get pushed, I would have less interest than say...if it was Sasha or someone else.

    Guess I’m trying to say is that there’s always going to be people fighting for their favorites because WWE and other companies don’t know how to make people invested without it right now...and I also think it has to do with how much product is produced. People despise the wild card rule cause there’s talent on both shows. No one careed about that in 2000

    I’m rambling. Whatever

  21. #341
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    But why would there be that resentment? I'm not saying that people can't have their favourites, but just because someone got over in NXT...that doesn't mean a lot in the grand scheme.

    Take, for example, Eric Bugenhagen. You watch his first appearance in NXT and by the end of it you'd think he was the biggest thing on that roster. The crowd was so into him. But they are by and large a very smart, niche crowd and pretty forgiving. You take that exact same segment, execute it the same way, but but it on Raw and it would die a death and the dirt sheet writers would take a massive dump on it for being unfunny WWE comedy stuff.

    NXT is filling buildings for Takeover, but I'd rate those closer to an All In/Out or DON than a standard WWE touring show. People travel from hours away to see Takeover, and they're often tied in to main roster shows that you'd expect to have that smart, niche audience travelling for. Look at the crowd at a take over. It's a lot of dudes in Bullet Club shirts.

    Just because you get over in NXT, doesn't mean you get called up to the main roster and have a rocket strapped to you. In some cases, you do, but in a lot of others you start right back at the bottom.

    I don't love that they call up so many people unnecessarily. ECIII should probably still be in NXT. But I don't think it would be reasonable to say "you got over with a fairly niche, smart, forgiving audience, therefor you're getting a big shove in front of everyone".

    Pen, I don't disagree about the rise of Becky, and Charlotte being a better all around performer than Rousey playing a role, but that's more or less what I'm talking about. Modern fans have so much trouble staying behind someone even in a small way when they decide that someone else should be "it". It came off like Becky caught fire, fans decided that she should be the tippy top star, and rather than cheering her even louder, they turned on Rousey because Becky wasn't immediately given the go ahead. The same people who claim to want long term storytelling also want the instant gratification of their favourite today being pushed to the top today.

    Were fans feeling angry because Meltzer was reporting that Becky was going to be left out of that main event at WrestleMania? Are we at a point where we're turning on people entirely because dirt sheets are reporting six months out that our favourite isn't scheduled to get what we think they should? That's ludicrous.

    Again, the same people who say that they wan't longterm storytelling, only want it if it ends exactly as they see in their minds -- or in this case the often collective conscious of internet wrestling fans -- and they know it's going to get there from minute one. If it doesn't end how they believe it should, or doesn't look like it's heading there, it's automatically "bad".

    I dunno, I just wish we could go back to the days where fans cared so much heels were getting stabbed. Today, fans only care to take a selfie and want to have a laugh with the heels whose "performance" they appreciate after the show.

  22. #342
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Farrell View Post
    But why would there be that resentment? I'm not saying that people can't have their favourites, but just because someone got over in NXT...that doesn't mean a lot in the grand scheme.

    Take, for example, Eric Bugenhagen. You watch his first appearance in NXT and by the end of it you'd think he was the biggest thing on that roster. The crowd was so into him. But they are by and large a very smart, niche crowd and pretty forgiving. You take that exact same segment, execute it the same way, but but it on Raw and it would die a death and the dirt sheet writers would take a massive dump on it for being unfunny WWE comedy stuff.

    NXT is filling buildings for Takeover, but I'd rate those closer to an All In/Out or DON than a standard WWE touring show. People travel from hours away to see Takeover, and they're often tied in to main roster shows that you'd expect to have that smart, niche audience travelling for. Look at the crowd at a take over. It's a lot of dudes in Bullet Club shirts.

    Just because you get over in NXT, doesn't mean you get called up to the main roster and have a rocket strapped to you. In some cases, you do, but in a lot of others you start right back at the bottom.

    I don't love that they call up so many people unnecessarily. ECIII should probably still be in NXT. But I don't think it would be reasonable to say "you got over with a fairly niche, smart, forgiving audience, therefor you're getting a big shove in front of everyone".
    I'm not saying that every NXT success should get a push on the main roster but in some cases, the way main roster booking goes, it seems like they don't even try. Not going to break down every example but like Sanity? Its probably a niche entrance, three guys that don't have a great look, with a crazy woman in the stable... But why bring them up if that's what the plan was? I think fans get annoyed by things like that. Or even though he wasn't a success in NXT, Apollo Crews has gotten stop and start pushes on the main roster when he probably could have been utilized better.

    I guess what i'm trying to say is, you don't need to push everyone to the moon but it also doesn't make sense when there's no plan. Maybe that changes with Bischoff and Heyman. You say certain things don't translate from NXT (i agree) but you also have to see that they don't even try with some people

    Maybe its the nature of that chaotic booking on the main roster vs NXT where they tape shows.. but still, it doesn't do new talent any favors.

  23. #343
    Quote Originally Posted by PEN15v2 View Post
    I almost agree with you. I don't agree that every title reign needs a filler feud. If you said (or meant to say) that every fresh top face needs a feud where they come out on top, and that it can sometimes feel like filler, than yes I agree. Whenever any WrestleMania ended with a new face on top of the company/brand/division, they need to give that new champion a feud or angle to overcome. They feel like filler, but they actually serve a great purpose. Starting with "Boyhood Dream" Shawn Michaels, we knew Diesel was leaving, and British Bulldog never had a chance to win the title, but those angles helped to establish HBK as the future. Vader was when there was a risk of HBK losing the title. 2 years later, Austin worked with Foley in an amazing angle, but looking back ,you know there was no chance Dude Love was walking away WWF champion (though they did a great job making it seem like he could). Another example is Kane challenging Daniel Bryan. It was widely criticized, and rightfully so because of how it was executed. But Bryan's former tag partner, who is also a former World Champion, makes sense as a challenger where Daniel could get a significant win after the original victory. There was a logic to it, even if it didn't work out on TV.

    So Seth working with Corbin works for me. I wish they could tell a better story where the title is genuinely at risk, and I think this Winner Takes All match is the best job at doing that so far. But we both know Becky and Seth will have a SummerSlam title defense, and while I don't really know who the opponents will be, I'm guessing it'll be a better draw than Baron.

    And honestly, Baron is nailing his work these days. No heel (other than Shane) is as strongly hated, and WWE have attempted (and at least partially succeeded) merging the supposed "go-away" heat, into genuine heat. This isn't to say Baron is amazing, or the heel of the future the way Kurt Angle seemed to be insinuating lately. But in WWE 2019, where there are no credible heels, Baron is a great option to help establish Seth before Rollins moves on to Lesnar or Lashley or whoever the SummerSlam challenger (or challengers) will be.
    Yeah, I should have worded that better, but what you said was what I meant. I honestly don't know why Corbin is disliked so much, tbh. Granted, his lone wolf gimmick was better than this.

  24. #344
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    Quote Originally Posted by LK3185 View Post
    I'm not saying that every NXT success should get a push on the main roster but in some cases, the way main roster booking goes, it seems like they don't even try. Not going to break down every example but like Sanity? Its probably a niche entrance, three guys that don't have a great look, with a crazy woman in the stable... But why bring them up if that's what the plan was? I think fans get annoyed by things like that. Or even though he wasn't a success in NXT, Apollo Crews has gotten stop and start pushes on the main roster when he probably could have been utilized better.

    I guess what i'm trying to say is, you don't need to push everyone to the moon but it also doesn't make sense when there's no plan. Maybe that changes with Bischoff and Heyman. You say certain things don't translate from NXT (i agree) but you also have to see that they don't even try with some people

    Maybe its the nature of that chaotic booking on the main roster vs NXT where they tape shows.. but still, it doesn't do new talent any favors.
    What's wrong with booking someone to be enhancement talent? I think the mentality that EVERYONE needs a push is a problem, and is part of what leads to the dreaded 50/50 booking.

    This isn't to say WWE does a good job at this, but now that just because someone isn't getting a push, doesn't mean WWE isn't trying.

  25. #345
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    Quote Originally Posted by PEN15v2 View Post
    What's wrong with booking someone to be enhancement talent? I think the mentality that EVERYONE needs a push is a problem, and is part of what leads to the dreaded 50/50 booking.

    This isn't to say WWE does a good job at this, but now that just because someone isn't getting a push, doesn't mean WWE isn't trying.

    If you bring someone in just to be enhancement talent why even make them somewhat of a draw in NXT? That doesn't make sense to me. Want to push new talent as an enhancement talent? Fine, then you've gotta change how the TV is done so that the line isn't so blurred.


    What happens instead is the new toy, weather they had success or not in NXT is most cases treated like something people should care about. They do vignettes, give people wins over established talent. Then a month later they are working main event before RAW

    Treat em like true enhancement talent if that's all they are. if you do that, then you could save your bigger star matches for bigger shows.


    The problem with how WWE handles it now is that alot of the talent that's being underused could maybe doing better than some of the chosen talents that get the push in WWE or they could be doing amazing things elsewhere... There isn't a Brooklyn Brawler on the roster.
    Last edited by LK3185; 1 Week Ago at 08:10 PM.

  26. #346
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    Quote Originally Posted by LK3185 View Post
    If you bring someone in just to be enhancement talent why even make them somewhat of a draw in NXT? That doesn't make sense to me. Want to push new talent as an enhancement talent? Fine, then you've gotta change how the TV is done so that the line isn't so blurred.


    What happens instead is the new toy, weather they had success or not in NXT is most cases treated like something people should care about. They do vignettes, give people wins over established talent. Then a month later they are working main event before RAW

    Treat em like true enhancement talent if that's all they are. if you do that, then you could save your bigger star matches for bigger shows.


    The problem with how WWE handles it now is that alot of the talent that's being underused could maybe doing better than some of the chosen talents that get the push in WWE or they could be doing amazing things elsewhere... There isn't a Brooklyn Brawler on the roster.
    Maybe they bring everyone they have hopes for, but determine that some people just don't have it to be stars when in NXT, and they make better use being enhancement.

  27. #347
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    But they still treat them like anyone can still be stars, even if they’ve been enhancement for months. Look at Cedric Alexander who has largely been a comedy act in 24/7 even after they promoted his coming to the brand...he then is teaming with Roman this week in a mask reveal after he loses cleanly..so he still looks like a joke and no one cared when the whole point of a mask reveal is to pop

    I don’t think we’re that apart on the debate here.

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    Well, I'm definitely disagreeing about Cedric. I thought that was great, and he's not a joke. He got a highlight reel main event spot, but lost to a finisher from Drew McIntyre. He's going to get a replay next Monday, and he'll likely be the focus of whatever match he is in. If he loses to Mojo Rawley, then you might be right about him being a joke. But even WWEs worst booking isn't to put a spotlight on someone in a main event loss one week, and lose the next to a nobody. He might lose, but it'll be with credibility again.

    So I do disagree. Just because WWE focuses elsewhere, it doesn't mean the guys out of focus are underused overall. I like Cedric, and I liked Tyler Breeze. But there was and is no one in a current angle I would like to be removed from TV to give them a spot. I like them, but that doesn't mean they deserve a tv spot over the other talent in today's WWE.

    This isn't to say the system isn't broken, and that there aren't ways to have them used better. My feeling is always "put them in a tag team", and let them perform as enhancement there. Them, if at least one of them is proven to be worth pushing as singles, it's almost like an automatic restart button. Just look at Shinsuke on SDL. I'm not saying he's fixed, but the way the announce team put him over, plus his win over Balor, it did a great job making him matter all over again.

    That's something I like about NJPW and ROH, as they use the young boys as enhancement talent. They make it a story that they are still learning, but getting their feet wet, and that they will earn their colors or spots in time. WWE could definitely use that model in some way, and it could help solve part of the problem we're discussing

  29. #349
    Super Moderator Team Farrell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LK3185 View Post
    If you bring someone in just to be enhancement talent why even make them somewhat of a draw in NXT? That doesn't make sense to me. Want to push new talent as an enhancement talent? Fine, then you've gotta change how the TV is done so that the line isn't so blurred.
    I think that part of the problem is that Vince isn't booking NXT. He probably doesn't care much about NXT. At the end of the day, even if they call it another brand on TV, it's developmental.

    The Bashams against each other in the top main event feud in OVW, but Vince didn't give a shit about OVW booking. He saw what he saw, so he shaved Doug Basham's head, teamed him with The Damaja and called them the Basham Brothers.

    I genuinely think that Vince sees NXT as OVW but selling out arenas a few times a year (non Takeover touring shows don't outdraw ROH). And I think he recognizes that it's a niche product.

    If a guy is treated well in NXT and is well received (Tyler Breeze) but Vince calls him up and just sees what he sees, they're slotted down. Vince has a pretty good track record of being able to see "it". He has misses throughout his career, a lot of them, but the hits have made him a lot of money.

    Some of it confuses me. Why was ECIII called up only to be left off TV and shot down to the 24/7 division? Everyone who's ever been in a management role will say that more goes into the decision to bring someone up than just "fuck it, let's call him up", and a lot of times it's a fight to get people there. Maybe ECIII got the call up but wasn't what Vince was expecting when he got there. Maybe Vince doesn't see any more in him today than he did with Derrick Bateman and changed his mind after calling him up.

    Quote Originally Posted by PEN15v2 View Post
    That's something I like about NJPW and ROH, as they use the young boys as enhancement talent. They make it a story that they are still learning, but getting their feet wet, and that they will earn their colors or spots in time. WWE could definitely use that model in some way, and it could help solve part of the problem we're discussing
    I like this method a lot, too. I also like that they use a lot of the aging veteran talent in that same role to help new talent learn and help get up and comers over.

    You have Nagata, Kojima and Tenzan, three guys with probably a half dozen G1 wins and 40+ different championship reigns in New Japan alone (including multiple IWGP World Title reigns each) working opening multi-man matches with young lions and guys that they want to get over or get give a win to. Helping these young lions learn in defeat (or surprise victory) and helping some of these younger talents gain, or keep, credibility with victories over the legends. If this were North America, the three would be coming back once a year to beat an up-and-coming name and then go home.

    That's something that WWE is really missing. For two reasons I think. One, so many of the guys who would still be physically able to do that are either dead (Eddie, Benoit), still active top guys (Orton, Cena) or retired with serious injuries that prevent them from working anymore (Edge, JBL, Austin, Foley). The other reason is that "legends" have been so revered for so long that it comes off as wrong. When Drew made light work of Kurt Angle, it just didn't seem right because of the way those guys are generally treated.

    Imagine though, if Bray had beaten The Rock at WrestleMania when Rock made the challenge. Where could Bray be today? Or, if Elias had puffed up his chest and clobbered The Undertaker with his guitar. What if Shawn Michaels came back, not to face BOD but to put over Sami Zayn at Summerslam?

    There's value in using some of these older names to put over your younger ones. It worked for Edge with Foley, Orton with Foley, everyone with Foley. Having Hogan put over Brock did wonders for Brock. Put Rey and Jeff Hardy in that role of putting guys over. RVD can still go, Rhyno could still go, shit Batista could still go and probably would have loved coming back a year or two ago between Avengers movies to work with some newer talent.

  30. #350
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    The big reason the veterans moving down the card won't be easy is because the established method vets have been used. And it doesn't just involve educating fans to accept it, but the talent as well. When the Hardys and Rey signed back up in recent years, I doubt the discussion was only about putting over newer talent. I'm sure it was mentioned, but Vince likely sugarcoated it to be a final top level run, with some enhancement work in between. Had Rey been told "I'll need to you to lose to Joe in a minute at Mania, and then be destroyed by Lashley", he wouldn't have agreed. And he wouldn't have needed the WWE pay because had he refused, he would have been used elsewhere in a more prominent role.

    So it'll be hard (but not impossible) to convince talent to stick around and help the midcard.

  31. #351
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Farrell View Post
    I think that part of the problem is that Vince isn't booking NXT. He probably doesn't care much about NXT. At the end of the day, even if they call it another brand on TV, it's developmental.

    The Bashams against each other in the top main event feud in OVW, but Vince didn't give a shit about OVW booking. He saw what he saw, so he shaved Doug Basham's head, teamed him with The Damaja and called them the Basham Brothers.

    I genuinely think that Vince sees NXT as OVW but selling out arenas a few times a year (non Takeover touring shows don't outdraw ROH). And I think he recognizes that it's a niche product.

    If a guy is treated well in NXT and is well received (Tyler Breeze) but Vince calls him up and just sees what he sees, they're slotted down. Vince has a pretty good track record of being able to see "it". He has misses throughout his career, a lot of them, but the hits have made him a lot of money.

    Some of it confuses me. Why was ECIII called up only to be left off TV and shot down to the 24/7 division? Everyone who's ever been in a management role will say that more goes into the decision to bring someone up than just "fuck it, let's call him up", and a lot of times it's a fight to get people there. Maybe ECIII got the call up but wasn't what Vince was expecting when he got there. Maybe Vince doesn't see any more in him today than he did with Derrick Bateman and changed his mind after calling him up.
    .
    I understand that Vince has his own vision, my counter to that is Vince should care because we're not dealing with wrestlers that aren't talented. Whatever someone thinks of EC3, he left WWE and made a name for himself. He didn't need to be handled the way its gone on the main roster to pay dues or whatever this is. If Vince doesn't like him as a performer, he should just release him.

    I'm not even a big EC3 fan, but I get the frustrations that others have. Maybe if Vince looked at talent in NXT and cared about that, he could maybe see where they would fit in his product. If all the performers in NXT won't work on the main roster, they should never get a call up and its arguable why they are even signed to the company. WWE has transformed into a brand that 's more about WWE than the stars but you still need to keep making them and I definitely think Vince has lost his touch in this regard and probably why he made the Heyman and Bischoff decision.. so he wouldn't have as much of the burden.
    Last edited by LK3185; 1 Week Ago at 01:29 PM.

  32. #352
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    ECIII did get an initial run with Dean Ambrose. Maybe Vince didn't like what he saw. I think those call ups were badly planned before the end of 2018. It was rushed and badly planned, and most of those talents have struggled to gain footing in some way on the main roster. I'm surprised they have succeeded as much as they have with others though. Lacey is a tremendous character who needs more experience, but is definitely a prospect for the future. Heavy Machinery seemed doomed to fail, but they've really mixed their comedic side with an actual competitive nature in a way I never expected.

    I know lots of online complaints are around about NXT callups being misused, but other than ECIII, there aren't many I actually find to be bothersome. And even ECIII, he's not much of an in ring worker. I feel Vince is missing the boat for his character/personality abilities, which is odd for Vince. But I also don't want to see EC3 in the ring vs anyone.

    There are too many people off TV too regularly, and I agree some should be left in NXT or cut. But I also think there's enough time for everyone if WWE restructured a few things. For every complaint that ECIII isn't getting used, you should remember that we haven't seen Charlotte or Randy Orton much lately either.


    When I used to play EWR, I booked everyone on my roster in a tag team. No exceptions. I truly think this should more common, because if there's nothing for creative for someone like Apollo or EC3, keeping them on TV in a tag team is still something. I also think WWE should book more multiman matches on TV/PPV for the undercard/midcard. Even if the feud is Cedric Alexander vs Elias, then have Cedric team with EC3 vs Elias and Drew. Or have Elias vs Cedric vs EC3 vs No Way Jose. You give the other guys TV time and exposure, while concentrating the story that needs the focus.

  33. #353
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    Well, it doesn't look like there's a thread specific to the WWE Network, so this one will suffice.

    I watched that Evolve show on the Network. That thing was a travesty. I actually got mad that that show was airing on the WWE Network. It was so much psychology-less nonsense, stupid silliness, amateur hour performance and bullshit until about the point that Riddle and Gulak had a serious professional wrestling match.

    Guys who look in terms of appearance and work like they shouldn't be anywhere near televised pro wrestling. That opener with the two schlubs was stupid as fuck, and when the one guys started busting out super high impact backbreakers transitioned into other backbreakers without it being the finish, I was out. The four way was okay, but again just too much for the sake of doing too much, I liked the Wolf guy. My girlfriend raved about Shotzi before the match, and I thought she was pretty good. The fat farm boy looking motherfucker who had the WWN title was pretty good -- he didn't look like an adonis but didn't need to and carries that look really well.

    And then there's Austin Theory. That guy reminds me of 2001 John Cena. If he doesn't get seriously hurt or bungled by the system, he is not incorrect when he says he's going to be main eventing WrestleMania someday.

    Oh, I also really really liked the semi-shoot style match between the two martial arts guys.

    That entire show was so disjointed and poorly put together it reminded me of watching a late 90s episode of ECW Hardcore TV back where things would flow weird and you might have no explanation for why we were suddenly throwing to things. Stuff like airing the Unwanted promo, only to have Kingston come out and reintroduce everyone and state basically the exact same thing on a live mic. I got up and walked out of the room when before the tag match, Unwanted had the giant surrounded, the other guys music hit and they came out to the stage to do their entire fucking dance routine before running in to do a dive and make the save. Why didn't Unwanted get a couple of licks in during the 10 minutes they had to wait?

    Also, do wrestlers not work out anymore? Like, I don't need everyone to look like a bronze statue -- I liked JD Drake a lot -- but come on. Half the guys on that card didn't look like they could win a fight with the people in the crowd, let alone a professional athlete. There were a handful of guys like that Wolf dude and AR Fox that look like athletes, but some of these guys look like Hot Topic employees.

  34. #354
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Farrell View Post
    Also, do wrestlers not work out anymore? Like, I don't need everyone to look like a bronze statue -- I liked JD Drake a lot -- but come on. Half the guys on that card didn't look like they could win a fight with the people in the crowd, let alone a professional athlete. There were a handful of guys like that Wolf dude and AR Fox that look like athletes, but some of these guys look like Hot Topic employees.

    I ask this a lot. Like, I don't need you to do HGH, or any other PED's. But you know who looks like they can kick my ass (I don't fancy myself a tough guy, but I've won way more fights than I've lost), Shinsuke Nakamura. He doesn't look like he's on PED's, but he looks like he can kicks someone's ass. Same with CM Punk when he was in WWE. It's realistic that someone like Andy Ruiz in boxing would beat up an Anthony Joshua, and if you watch boxing you'd know Andy Ruiz looks more like Kevin Owens and Joshua looks like the old school WWF wrestlers from the 80's that were all on juice. So I've never thought that everyone needs to be on juice. But can we please get guys that at least look like they go to the gym, can lift weights and run more than a city block without losing air.

  35. #355
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    Insert IWC rant: "Only Vince cares about size, but size doesn't matter" as they pay money into Marvel movies, Hobbs and Shaw, and other action movies with all the heroes looking super fit, and other hypocrisies.

  36. #356
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    I've long said that steroids should be legal (well maybe legalish, hard to explain what I mean). If wrestlers are willing to assume the health risks, I say let them.

    Same for baseball. Maybe not a sport like football where you could easily legitimately kill someone, but...

  37. #357
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    The thing is, not everyone needs to be on gas. There's a place for the Rybacks of the world for sure, and I think those physically larger than life people have their attraction to the general public.

    But Wolf or Theory weren't juiced up monsters, they just look like athletes. They're build like professional fighters. UFC has shown us all what a professional fighter coming out for a fight generally looks like. You don't need to be musclebound or have 3% body fat, but at least look like you watch your diet and have some sort of muscle mass.

  38. #358
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    So LWO is out then...

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    Body like a milk bag.
    Last edited by PEN15v2; 6 Days Ago at 02:54 PM.

  40. #360
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Farrell View Post
    The thing is, not everyone needs to be on gas. There's a place for the Rybacks of the world for sure, and I think those physically larger than life people have their attraction to the general public.

    But Wolf or Theory weren't juiced up monsters, they just look like athletes. They're build like professional fighters. UFC has shown us all what a professional fighter coming out for a fight generally looks like. You don't need to be musclebound or have 3% body fat, but at least look like you watch your diet and have some sort of muscle mass.
    This is exactly my stance. I don't want people on gas because of health risk. But God damn at least look like you hit the gym and eat somewhat healthy.

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