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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Remember when it was a TV storyline that champions had to defend once a month; just a few years ago.
    It was a TV storyline last year, with Naomi having to give up the Smackdown women's title before Mania because she was injured so couldn't make the mandatory defence timeframe. Meanwhile on Raw Goldberg and Lesnar were barely present.

  2. #82
    Feeling Minnesota Powder's Avatar
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    Where is Jack Tunney when we need him?

  3. #83
    LOP Freebirds Buddy Roberts SirSam's Avatar
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    Is it just me or is every discussion I have ending in Lesnar and Reigns. I dunno how it is happening because it is the part of wrestling that I am least loving right now but it seems in WWE discussion at the moment all roads lead to Roman.

  4. #84
    Senior Member 205 Clive's Avatar
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    I think the reason that all roads lead to Roman is because a large contingent of the IWC have a truly unhealthy obsession with him. I see everywhere screeds and screeds of how Roman did this wrong, Roman is overpushed, Meltzer said this etc etc.

    People may complain about Roman Reigns being overpushed, but those people aren't helping matters by delving deep into every single moment of his singles run with a fine tooth comb.

    As for Lesnar, I have a cheek to complain about him as i've just podded at length about him(!), but this kayfabed "hijacking" of the Universal Title has birthed some fundamental issues on Raw that are damaging everything else in its path. Raw wouldn't seem as bad as it is if we had a healthy and competitive world title picture.
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  5. #85
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    I think the reason that all roads lead to Roman is because a large contingent of the IWC have a truly unhealthy obsession with him. I see everywhere screeds and screeds of how Roman did this wrong, Roman is overpushed, Meltzer said this etc etc.
    Are you serious? He's been the focal point of everything for over 4 years, so of course people are going to talk about him. Just as they did about Cena during the Cena era. There's nothing unusual about that. Though, unlike Cena, Roman has been an unmitigated failure. That isn't just the opinion of the 'IWC', or Meltzer, virtually every commentator in wrestling, from the podcast people like Austin, Ross, Jericho, Tazz, Cornette, Sam Roberts, etc., to columnists, to even the casual outlets that cover wrestling, have noted this, because it's fucking obvious.

    If there is someone who has an unhealthy obsession with him, that would be Vince, who has sacrificed 4 years, countless other viable people, and push after push after push after push, trying to hamfistedly get him over. Any other promoter in this spot would have changed course a long time ago; he stubbornly pushes on because he has a monopoly and 'fuck you' TV rights money. Otherwise, he has disregarded every single booking 101 principle in manic pursuit of this.

  6. #86
    LOP Freebirds Buddy Roberts SirSam's Avatar
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    I think I was commenting on how I'll start talking about another wrestler and the talk winds it's way to Brock and Reigns. Even when I'm writing my current series which is meant to be a look back in winding up on modern topics.

    I don't think you are far off the mark Clive. There are two significant sections of the community that are fiercely loyal to their position regarding Reigns and seem to view everything through their prisim.

  7. #87
    Roman is like the Deisel that kept getting pushed even after he flopped...he's not as big or even as cool though...he's really, really lame on the microphone. He's medium size daddy uncool. How can people not talk about him if he's always in the main event?

  8. #88
    Here's hoping WWE moved past him with Braun winning money in the bank

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirSam View Post
    I think I was commenting on how I'll start talking about another wrestler and the talk winds it's way to Brock and Reigns. Even when I'm writing my current series which is meant to be a look back in winding up on modern topics.

    I don't think you are far off the mark Clive. There are two significant sections of the community that are fiercely loyal to their position regarding Reigns and seem to view everything through their prisim.
    I don't know, these days even people who like Roman and were rooting for him are mostly tired of him and the way he has been handled. (Just see the Reddit threads after any PPV/show). Everyone is just rolling their eyes at this point, waiting to see when something or someone new is going to get a shot, instead of the same tired old storyline of the past 4 years about the 'Big Dawg overcoming all the odds and silencing all da critics!' There are Braun fans out there, Rollins fans out there, who are obviously not happy that their preferred 'deserving' superstars are basically stuck in limbo until Roman gets over. Most people would probably even just be happy with less promo time, and a heel turn for him. Anything, really, rather than the same rut. A 3 hour show really drags when it's built around such a flat character that simply does not resonate, but is plastered all over it nonetheless.
    Quote Originally Posted by Benjamin Button View Post
    Roman is like the Deisel that kept getting pushed even after he flopped...he's not as big or even as cool though...he's really, really lame on the microphone. He's medium size daddy uncool. How can people not talk about him if he's always in the main event?
    This too. Vince pushed Diesel in the 90's, because Diesel was a big muscular guy who Vince could vicariously identify with, and he tanked hard, and everyone in the back told Vince that he tanked hard, but Vince still had to see it with his own eyes for 10 months before he was ready to throw in the towel. Though at that time, the company was in dire financial straits, who knows how long Vince would have stuck with Diesel if he had 2018 'fuck you' money...
    Last edited by Alan; 2 Weeks Ago at 12:34 AM.

  10. #90
    Super Moderator Prime Time's Avatar
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    The core of Roman fans are definitely hardening, though. I see plenty of it on Twitter and there's clearly more of an outspoken vibe from them. Some of it probably crosses a line, actually.

    Interesting that he might be losing the fringes of his support though.

    "The worst moron is the one too stupid to realise they're a moron."

  11. #91
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    The thing is, Roman is still pretty good in the ring. And almost always has been. I remember when he was in The Shield and they each had a singles match with Bryan, and Roman's was the best by a long way.

    Much as I don't like Roman's character, I find it hard to remember a point in time where he hasn't at least felt reasonably decent in the ring. They need to work around that outside the ring, but the guy is still good.

  12. #92
    Super Moderator Prime Time's Avatar
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    Really? In his Shield days I can only remember thinking how well protected he was. They did a great job of that back then, I thought. I said more about it in the thing I wrote but in short, I thought from the beginning it was clear that best wrestler was Rollins, and it was pretty comfortable too.

    As for now... Reigns is very, very good at what he does. The trouble is that in itself is fairly limited, I'm not sure how good he is outside of that zone, and I'm also not sure how many people are interested in that at the moment. It's reasonably similar in some key respects to what Cena has been doing for the past fifteen years and are people really buying into it? Not sure. Everyone who has gotten hot over the last few years - whether it's Ambrose, Rollins, Strowman, or even going back a bit further to Bryan and Punk - have been offering something different to that.

    In the territory days, of course, he'd move on to somewhere else and come back when the time was right, but that's not really an option anymore. It's not like WWE have an 'excursion' system to take him out of the spotlight for a while.

    "The worst moron is the one too stupid to realise they're a moron."

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
    The thing is, Roman is still pretty good in the ring. And almost always has been. I remember when he was in The Shield and they each had a singles match with Bryan, and Roman's was the best by a long way.

    Much as I don't like Roman's character, I find it hard to remember a point in time where he hasn't at least felt reasonably decent in the ring. They need to work around that outside the ring, but the guy is still good.
    He has had a series of bad PPV matches. The 2 Brock matches, the Joe matche, and Jinder matches as well (though he can excused for those). A lot of people have brought up, with a shrug, that he has became an intensively formulaic, spam Superman punches + Spears and kickouts Cena-lite 2.0 kind of guy.
    Last edited by Alan; 2 Weeks Ago at 05:57 AM.

  14. #94
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    Everyone in WWE falls into that trap though.

    I just don't get it. I don't pay close attention to much WWE and yet I can see Reigns is still a good wrestler, arguably a great one on his day. You can argue the toss about other stuff, but his list of good or even great matches is pretty long. Just off the top of my head:

    vs Bryan at Fastlane
    vs Styles at Payback
    vs Styles at Extreme Rules
    vs Punk on Raw
    vs Bryan on Raw
    vs Strowman at Fastlane
    vs Orton at Summerslam
    vs Brock and Ambrose at Fastlane
    vs Lesnar at WM31

  15. #95
    Super Moderator Prime Time's Avatar
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    Off the top of my head the only one of those that I remember feeling positive about was the Bryan match from Fastlane, if I'm honest about it.

    I remember some of them in kind of an 'eh' way, and as for the rest.... I know I've seen the others but I can't place a damn thing about them. So obviously I didn't think they were that good, or I'd remember them.

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  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
    Everyone in WWE falls into that trap though.

    I just don't get it. I don't pay close attention to much WWE and yet I can see Reigns is still a good wrestler, arguably a great one on his day. You can argue the toss about other stuff, but his list of good or even great matches is pretty long. Just off the top of my head:

    vs Bryan at Fastlane
    vs Styles at Payback
    vs Styles at Extreme Rules
    vs Punk on Raw
    vs Bryan on Raw
    vs Strowman at Fastlane
    vs Orton at Summerslam
    vs Brock and Ambrose at Fastlane
    vs Lesnar at WM31
    The Orton match is hot garbage and showed Roman wasn't ready to be the guy at the time. The Bray feud you fail to mention was another terrible feud. Roman works well AJ, Strowman, Dean, had a few good matches with KO that people overlook. I don't feel he has good chemistry with Seth but others may beg to differ.

    The real problem is, he's only had one good semi one on one good match with Brock and that was 3 years ago. Sure, the matches have been accepted by the audience but they've also been bad.

    The work to me is beside the point. Fans are just tired of this run and want something different.. even if Roman was univeral champ for 3 months it would be something different than we'd have now.. Everything in a holding pattern that leads back to Roman is just bad tv.

  17. #97
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    I also hate that Orton/Reigns Summerslam match.

    I do see some fans who think Reigns is really, really good in the ring though, and not just WWE apologists either. I think it must be a matter of taste at the end of the day. More power to those who enjoy him, I guess?

  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    He has had a series of bad PPV matches. The 2 Brock matches, the Joe matche, and Jinder matches as well (though he can excused for those). A lot of people have brought up, with a shrug, that he has became an intensively formulaic, spam Superman punches + Spears and kickouts Cena-lite 2.0 kind of guy.
    Reigns vs Jinder and Reigns vs Joe weren't bad by any stretch. People have decided that they don't like Roman and Jinder, so they shit on the Joe match and really shit on the Jinder match but anyone saying that those matches are bad is being sucked in by the crowd reaction and didn't pay attention to the matches those guys were having. If Joe had that exact same match with an internet darling, it would have been well reviewed.

    Reigns is a good worker. He's an athletic dude that a selection of the fans have decided that they hate. That appears now to impact him when he's working on the midcard, and that fucking sucks. A bunch of grown men shit on him when he's in the main event because he's not an internet darling, and now they've decided that the midcard isn't good enough either.

    I watched a bunch of stuff from 1999 over the weekend, and that exact same contingent of grown men were chanting "boring" at Kurt Angle having an actually pretty decent match, broke into jeers calling Big Show vs Bossman boring when they were down selling after a big pop mere seconds before at a big table spot.

    It's starting to feel like 1999 all over again. If it wasn't an angle, The Rock or hardcore bullshit a certain segment had no interest. That is, until angles reached "peak Russo" and hardcore stopped being novel. Now, it feels like if guys aren't trying to do a knockoff NJPW match or fly all over the place, a certain segment has no interest.

  19. #99
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    The Joe match was definitely awful. Worst Joe match in quite a while. Just forced, contrived rest holds to kill Joe's own heat, make him appear boring, and get people to pop for a Reigns comeback, which didn't happen, because it's Roman. They essentially sacrificed Joe, and him under perform in a match by having an agent lay out a slow-paced match that WWE audiences haven't been able to stomach for years, all for Roman. I don't think they ever had to do that for Cena, even at the peak of Cena hatred. They never toned down his opponents to get him over.

    Reigns is a good, above average wrestler who can do exactly one type of match well, if he has a competent opponent, and good agenting. So yes, he's had good matches, but as a worker, he's not exactly impressive, and has limitations that become visible, under certain conditions, like the last few months. I will also grant that he has athletic ability and good stamina and movement.

    Jinder is just average, painfully average. Safe worker, though, which is supposedly why he is very well-liked and respected backstage.

    It's starting to feel like 1999 all over again. If it wasn't an angle, The Rock or hardcore bullshit a certain segment had no interest. That is, until angles reached "peak Russo" and hardcore stopped being novel. Now, it feels like if guys aren't trying to do a knockoff NJPW match or fly all over the place, a certain segment has no interest.
    I agree with your take on 1999 and other Attitude Era foolishness, but this isn't 1999. Plenty of other people have good crowd-engaging matches. Styles, Rollins, Owens, even Miz, etc.
    Last edited by Alan; 2 Weeks Ago at 07:00 PM.

  20. #100
    Super Moderator Prime Time's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mizfan View Post
    I do see some fans who think Reigns is really, really good in the ring though, and not just WWE apologists either. I think it must be a matter of taste at the end of the day. More power to those who enjoy him, I guess?
    This is kinda what I was getting at with the point about him being very good at what he does, but what he does being actually quite limited. And I'm just plain not sure there's as big an audience for it out there as they think there is. For a while I thought I just wasn't it, as I hadn't been with Cena, but I'm now convinced it's a wider trend than just a few malcontents who'd rather be watching Pat O'Connor or some shit. Maybe if he wasn't following so hard on the heels of Cena, it wouldn't have quite the same problem connecting, although personally I also think character, story, and all that stuff play as big a part. Simple fact is even today most people don't know as much about wrestling as they think they do and their opinion about how good someone is in the ring often boils down to little more than an 'I like'. Which is how it should be, of course.

    I'm not sure I buy the thing about people only liking something if it looks like NJPW or some high-flying stuff. I mean, sure, there's an element of that in the audience, but that's quite clearly not the majority of the WWE audience. Reigns is struggling with a good number of them. And they've latched on to guys as diverse as Rollins and Strowman, Bryan and Ambrose. So I think there's quite clearly other stuff going on there as well, and while there is a subsection that are definitely in the 'eleventy stars in the Tokyo dome' crowd I don't think that fully explains the problems WWE have had creating top babyfaces... really for the past fifteen+ years, with Roman just the most high-profile example.

    I don't know if I fully go in with LK about people being tired by the run, because if that was it then people wouldn't have jumped on him pretty much from the get-go. But I do think people are tired of a lot of the things that he is seen to represent. And that might be unfair on the guy, probably is even, but that's more the fault of the company than the fans at the end of the day. They've put him out there to fail and then complain about their audience when he does.
    Last edited by Prime Time; 2 Weeks Ago at 07:22 AM.

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  21. #101
    The Reigns vs Jinder match was actually not bad, just not a good modern match by most fans standards. I enjoyed it, and I dislike both guys. Neither did anything fundamentally wrong, it's just not what modern matches typically are now. Its not just an NJPW thing, the whole scene now is faster, higher flying, more spots. Roman is a lot like Hulk minus charisma. In ring he has a set number of simple moves that he does very well, but he doesnt deviate (because he probably isnt versed enough to run on the fly). Hogan could deviate, but he played to the crowds he was around. If Hogan was this bad on the mic, and at working a crowd, he would have probably been boo'd almost like this. Fans just dont have the attention span in 2018 for simple matches unless there are big spots. Thats a big part of what seperates Roman from Braun I think, though Braun has the IT factor imo. Natural charisma goes a looooong way.


    I think WWE is already turning on him if you watch how theyre pushing Strowman.

  22. #102
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    Well, the WWE has conditioned their audience to savour fast-paced flippidity finisher kickout matches for years now. So they really can't claim ignorance on that, and be shocked that people react negatively to rest holds and slow matches. They don't even protect Roman's or Brock's finishers anymore. Even NJPW goes out of their way to protect Kenny Omega's finisher (2 people kicked out of it in 2 years, and one was a fluke), and they manage to have good matches. Meanwhile WWE announcers are hyping up as Roman kicks out of 5 F5s!

  23. #103
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    That haven't protected Brock's finish? Roman is the only one to kick out of it in likely over a year (did it take more than one to put Goldberg down?). They made a point of having him beat people with one F5 until he got to Roman.

    I'm not sure why you'd think the Joe match was bad by any stretch. It started hot, had Joe wearing him down in the middle (with wrestling holds in a wrestling match, novel concept) and picked up again towards the finish. That's pretty standard wrestling stuff. I refuse to believe that Joe was told to make himself look bad for Roman, especially when you consider that after being on top for 10 minutes working holds on Reigns, Joe was the more blown up of the two. The two had a good match.

    I really don't think that WWE has conditioned their fans to want flippy do bullshit. If that were the case, 205 Live would be a lot more over than it is. But there's a vocal part of the fanbase that tunes out and starts think it's boring if a guy is working a hold and they haven't seen an unnecessarily stiff shot or a spot in 90 seconds. Just like how in 1999 there was a vocal part of the fanbase who chanted boring if a guy wasn't taking an unprotected chair shot or a match went more than five minutes without someone jumping off the top rope...or worse if guys stayed on the mat for more than 30 seconds selling the shot that they just took.

    Reigns can't win, because people are having fun shitting on his matches. If he goes out and works the finisher heavy WWE main event style, he's limited and can only do three moves so that's all that he can do in his match and it's finisher spam. If he tries to work a midcard style match in the middle of the card with Jinder, it's too boring for 2018 and there's not enough happening.

    Meanwhile, you put anyone other than Reigns in there in that Joe match and people would be so excited that Joe got to show off himself looking strong on top and in control of the majority of the main event of a PPV.

  24. #104
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    The 5 kickouts at Wrestlemania made it a total parody though. It diminished everyone else as losers, and at Mania, the crowd cared less about each kickout. The whole point of protecting a finisher is so that when someone finally kicks out, it means something. Not have 5 kickouts and a dull, desensitized audience. Roman/Brock had an echo of Rock/Cena II, which was also panned pretty bad for its superfluous use of finishers and kickouts.

    I don't think Joe was 'told to be bad'. I think the match was clearly laid out in a way as to make Joe appear boring, and not get over, and it largely ended up succeeding. It was his big return match, and at the end of it, the crowd turned on both guys. Just like Mania and just like GRR. No agent would willfully, on their own, incorporate rest holds in the way that they did in match in the year 2018, and that is not Joe's usual wrestling style either. If I had to take a pure guess, I would say it was Michael Hayes trying to be cute.

    Compare Roman/Joe to Joe/Lesnar. Despite the latter being pitifully brief, Joe was allowed to be the monster heel that he clearly is, take it to Lesnar, and at the end of it, people were left wanting more. The match was received so well by the crowd and backstage that it led to Vince putting Joe in the Summerslam match, and extend Joe's initially short run in the main event that was supposed to end as a one-off. I can guarantee that if Joe had used rest holds the way he did in Roman's match, the crowd would have turned on it.


    Is the Roman thing really that perplexing in 2018? It's been 4 years of hamfisted supersaturation, and a significant amount of people are just tired with it, and there's other fan favourites that people want to see get a shot. He has been in 4 WM main events, against blockbuster opponents. Do people really want to see him in another 5 or 7? Yes, Roman hatred is a part of it, but it's not like it's the only reason. He's not even on the John Cena trajectory, where Cena went from being beloved rapper heel, to super-fervently hated corporate babyface, to begrudgingly being respected by his haters. Roman's on the 'we dislike your bland character, perceive your push as illegitimate/forced, and are sort of just tired of you and your never-ending redemption story'. Can we have some Braun/Seth/Miz now?' It's like the Lex Luger thing, but done for 10 times as long. Fans turned on him, so Vince moved on and chose Bret; here Vince just refuses to correct course or even trying anything new.
    Last edited by Alan; 2 Weeks Ago at 09:30 PM.

  25. #105
    So Bayley vs. Sasha is expected to be featured at Summerslam. Everyone here already knows my opinion on who should be playing the heel.

    I understand why people would say Sasha should, but Bayley needs a complete character overhaul and a heel turn would do that. We've seen Sasha as a heel and she definitely works as one, but I'd rather see something fresh. They can always do a double turn down the road if things don't work out.
    Last edited by LifeLostInRewind; 6 Days Ago at 03:20 PM.

  26. #106
    As it should be. Macho Mourn's Avatar
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    You guys want as painful laugh? This is the match they chose to highlight Extreme rules. To hype the PPV on their YouTube page...


    “Stoop to your own level. Your nature. Trust yourself. And most importantly... You have to learn what laws are really laws and not… Oppression."

  27. #107
    Feeling Minnesota Powder's Avatar
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    The match that put the nail in Bayley's coffin? Where the WWE wouldn't allow the face to finally get retribution on her foe?

  28. #108
    As it should be. Macho Mourn's Avatar
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    Yup, that one.

    “Stoop to your own level. Your nature. Trust yourself. And most importantly... You have to learn what laws are really laws and not… Oppression."

  29. #109
    Senior Member 205 Clive's Avatar
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    The recent interaction between Sasha and Bayley was rather unexpected, and turned it all on its head. With Sasha declaring her love of Bayley (whether platonic or not, who knows or cares), what does this mean for Summerslam?
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  30. #110
    Return of the bra and panties match?

    Lesbian tag team to go after newly introduced wwe women's tag team belts?

    Hopefully something not as dumb as the two ideas I just gave.

  31. #111
    As it should be. Macho Mourn's Avatar
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    Either they are about to announce a woman's tag division, or Sasha's gonna attack her in the next few weeks.

    “Stoop to your own level. Your nature. Trust yourself. And most importantly... You have to learn what laws are really laws and not… Oppression."

  32. #112
    Senior Member LWO4Life's Avatar
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    I think there is a more than 50% chance they have Sasha turn on Bayley. I think Bayley finally attacking Sasha was to get much needed heat on Bayley. They've killed her trying to make her TOO likable. They needed to add some edge to her. She can still hug little girls on her way to the ring, but once in the ring she should be tearing Sasha apart. With a good face, the crowd WANTS them to tear apart the heel.

  33. #113
    If Sasha is the one to go heel, my interest in this storyline decreases substantially.

    That being said, I can see this leading to Sasha Vs. Bayley in a loser leaves raw match at Summerslam.

  34. #114
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    Don't know why Sasha would turn after declaring her platonic love for Bayley... the ball is in Bayley's court now and i feel like they did that seg because Bayley got cheered when she attacked Sasha. They didn't want that reaction. It makes Bayley look bad if she now decides to turn on Sasha


    Yet that makes the most sense here.

  35. #115
    Which is why Bayley won't turn heel. Would make too much sense.

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