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  1. #601
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    That Jarrett thing was a work, right? A Russo Special.

  2. #602
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    The entire angle is mired in controversy. It depends on what site you read, what year it was written and who is telling the story. BUT, from what UI can gather the story goes something like this.

    Hogan had a title match against Jarrett, and neither wanted to lose. Hogan was playing backstage politics and said he doesn't want to lose, and forced his agenda. So Jarrett comes out with Russo, and Russo orders Jarrett to 'lay down' for Hogan to let Hogan win. Hogan initially refuses, but then covers Jarrett, and then cuts a promo saying 'this is why this company is shit....' and leaves. Russo then comes out later cutting a promo saying 'Hogan's title meas shit, and he is fired, and that Jarrett is still the champion, and he will defend the title later tonight against Booker T.'

    Again it depends on who you ask, but some say the entire angle was a work with all parties involved, including Bischoff. Some say no. But the facts are that Bash at the Beach 2000 was Hogan's last appearance for WCW, and he did leave the company



    However, if a wrestler is disgruntled, and is going to be on a TV match, then he/she could do what Jarrett did, and just go out and lay down for his/her opponent to protest their treatment. They still 'wrestle', but they just go out and throw the match.
    Last edited by Powder; 3 Weeks Ago at 08:17 AM.

  3. #603
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    It was a Russo joint.


  4. #604
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    I normally wouldn't trust Russo, Hogan and Bischoff with watching my Nintendo Gamecube but all three have more or less confirmed this version of the story to a certain degree.

    It starts in the spring of 2000 when Russo and Bischoff are given the keys to the WCW car again after the Kevin Sullivan era and start the New Blood vs. Millionares Club storyline where the young guys being held down are inexplicably the heels and the old guys holding the young dudes down were actually faces (don't ask). Hogan, ever the politician and desperately wanting to be in the World Title scene still, initially agrees to play ball and put over guys like Billy Kidman on the condition that he ultimately win the feud and get a title shot against Jeff Jarrett (which did happen). Around this time Russo claims that he and the creative team all unanimously agree that the next champion after Jarrett (who mind you has won and lost the title at least twice in a month's span during the late spring/early summer) is Booker T; whether that's because they thought he deserved it (as Russo argues) or because they wanted to avoid the racial profiling lawsuits they would soon be facing (as others argue) is a whole other can of worms. The decision is made to have Booker beat Jarrett at Bash at the Beach to win the belt after Jarrett beats Hogan early in the night due to interference. According to Russo Hogan initially refused to do it, but after adding enough interference and such Hogan agrees during the middle of the week.

    Then the day of the show arrives. As best as I can tell Hogan, Russo and Bischoff have all corroborated this chain of events. Russo arrives at the building and is informed by Bischoff that Hogan wasn't going to do the job, having changed his mind over the weekend. Russo goes to Hogan, Hogan explains he wants the title and, in what he describes as an attempt to get out of the situation with Booker holding the title, Russo presents a this scenario to Hogan; Russo will go back to Jarrett and tell Jeff that Hogan won't do the job (effectively working poor Double J), followed by Jarrett then deciding (at Russo's encouragement) to lay down to Hogan. Hogan and Bischoff will then leave in a fit following the match, Jarrett and Booker will have their match later in the night where Booker wins the betl and it would then open the door for Hogan to later return and do a Champion vs. Champion match (according to Russo that was more Hogan's idea than his; Russo himself just wanted to get through the night). At that point the work is on and everything plays out from Russo working Jeff to Jeff laying down to Hogan winning the belt and cutting his scathing "that's why this company is in the state it's in" worked shoot promo to Hogan and Bischoff leaving the building acting all furious.

    It's at this point accounts begin to differ. Russo claims they had all agreed that, after Hogan and Bischoff left, Russo would come out and cut his own scathing worked shoot promo on Hogan in order to both further the angle and set up the Jarrett-Booker T match. He's further claimed that after the show (the next day I believe) he was told by Turner executive Brad Seigel to not bring Hogan back as a cost cutting measure and that because of that Russo didn't call Hogan the next day as he promised, thus leading Hogan to believe he had been betrayed. Hogan, in his autobiography, claimed that Russo turned the angle into a shoot via his promo, but also seems to back up Russo's claim that Seigel was involved in preventing Hogan from returning. Bischoff, in his autobiography, has stated the stuff with Hogan and Jarrett was all a work but the Russo promo was a shoot and that Russo used the angle as a way to double cross Hogan. In the end it all leads to the lawsuit filed by Hogan against Russo (which Hogan lost I believe) and I believe Hogan and Bischoff vowed to never work with Russo again (and vice versa)...until a decade later when they all worked together again in running TNA. Carnies are gonna carny.


  5. #605
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    Did we ever discuss what was going on with Biff Busick, aka Oney Lorcan?


  6. #606
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    I don't think so, it's weird. He's either quit or he hasn't and is just entertaining himself or he's going into business for himself and forcing them to release him. Who knows. He's changed his own name...but it's not like other people haven't changed their social media handles, and having what appears to be a mental break is pretty on-brand for him.

    He's only working for Progress outside WWE as of now, correct? That's not abnormal.

    I would imagine that if this was all the real deal and he'd actually given notice or they'd agreed to a release, they likely would have pulled Danny Burch from that particular event, no? They'd probably want to kill that team dead.

    I believe that this is all Oney having some fun, maybe at the expense of ACH.

  7. #607
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    Well PWInsider did report last week that he had asked for his release and other places have backed that up. And now today he's gone off on Triple H on Twitter in response to H's thoughts on people publicly asking for their release the other day. So if he's having fun, he is stretching it awfully far.


  8. #608
    It’s fascinating watching Undertaker out of character discussing the business with Austin. It’s just so weird seeing him be himself after being protected and shielded for so long.

  9. #609
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    So, what are peoples' thoughts on this whole Mauro situation?

    Meltzer is completely disgusted that Corey would tweet something negative about the guy. Apparently co-workers criticizing his work, with a Twitter joke no less, is completely over the line because he has depression.

    At some point do you not have to accept that not everything is going to be "positive vibes" all the time, and people (your co-workers included) are going to say what they think? Especially the guy that the company gave a podcast to because he has takes.

    This brings me to something...Graves' criticism is warranted. Mauro is my second least favourite wrestler on national TV today, only behind Excalibur.

  10. #610
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    My thoughts are that negative comments about coworkers in a public forum wouldn't be accepted by any company, nevermind one based on entertainment with celebrity followings. Had Corey critiqued Renee publicly, he'd be admonished for sure. The mental illness issue shouldn't be a factor, but treating coworkers respectfully always is.

    This wasn't an in character feud building tweet. Corey had legitimate complaints, but to go about it publicly was low class, and should be a "coaching" session from any company.

  11. #611
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    I do question it coming for Corey specifically, though. He's the guy that they're sort of pushing as having hot takes. If they want or expect that type of thing from anyone, it's him.

    This is also the same company that encourages their people to tweet about the product, and has a live watch along show you can tune in to where people aren't exactly always "respectful" of their co-workers or the product.

    If Jim Ross had said the exact same thing, and Mauro had reacted the same way, is is disgusting (according to Dave) or is it another commentator giving his feedback on the commentary?

  12. #612
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    I think that the major fuss is because the comments were from Graves. If the same comments were from Jim Ross, no they wouldn't be taken or treated the same way. JR has long been associated as the gold standard in the prowrestling commentary position. So criticism would not be taken as hard. But Graves is a hard, tell it like it is person who may not have a filter, and what ever comments he makes comes across as harsh.

    If he pulled Mauro aside after the show and had a private conversation (with someone else there to bear witness) with him and said "Mauro, you did amazing, but it might be a good idea to let Beth and Nigel speak more". And let the conversation go from there. And then towards the end of the convo Graves adds "oh, and ease up on the Rap commentary" with a chuckle. I do not think there would have been a problem. If Mauro cannot take criticism, then that is a bigger problem, but the way that Graves did it, was terrible. But can you fault Graves? He is right in the middle of the Millennial generation where everything is said through social media with out that filter. I hate that these millennials feel the need to immediately post whatever they think.

  13. #613
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    If Jim Ross had criticized Mauro, a) he would've done it in a far more upfront, respectful manner than subtweet master Corey Graves did and b) he would've done it privately. This is why Graves is getting killed for it. Well that and he's a hypocrite. It wasn't even a few weeks ago this guy was on Twitter saying talent should be handling issues they have privately instead on social media, but apparently now it's okay because he's doing it. Please. Mauro shouldn't be free from criticism, but there was a way to do this (especially someone with his condition) and Corey Graves did not handle it properly.


  14. #614
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    Fine, had Michael Cole said it, of Renee or Mauro, it would still be the same issue. Twitter might be more offended because it's Corey going after IWC fave Mauro, but it should still be treated the same by WWE. Fuck Meltzer and his agenda, or twitter and their BS fake outrage. Any company would take the same measures for the same issue.

  15. #615
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    As the only person here who likely listened to the Observer audio this morning (unless you guys are long time hate listeners of the Observer, Pen and Coach) there is no agenda. Graves tweeted out his nonsense last night, Mauro deleted his Twitter, Meltzer and Bryan Alvarez got a hold of the story (which was through Mauro, given that he and his agent/friend Frank Shamrock are both friendly with Meltzer and Alvarez) and reported it. That's it! Dave was critical of Graves for the same reasons we've all been but he was also clear that there are no issues between Mauro and WWE specifically and that there really isn't a story here unless Mauro doesn't show up Wednesday (which, as of now, there's no indication that he will). There was no WWE slander or anything of that ilk and there didn't seem to be any agenda; it was just reporting the story accurately given what they had been told.

    This is the problem with so many people quick to judge anything by wrestling media these days. Because guys like Meltzer, Keller and such are behind a paywall, most of the info they give out is delivered second hand by people who do have an agenda, either to make the reporters themselves or the company they report on bad. You have to go to the direct source for the accurate info, not take it second hand from a random Twitter user or a person taking stuff out of context on Reddit.


  16. #616
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    No, there's always an agenda with Dave. His agenda is to create controversy, as it creates cash. It has nothing to do with spreading truth.

  17. #617
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    So, two things. First, I don't know, nor do I really care, what a sub-tweet is or anything about proper Twitter etiquette. There are some days that I feel like putting my feelings out there on Twitter and seeing my whole life go down in flames, though.

    Second, I think some people put waaaay too much stock on social media. Sometimes you just take it on the chin and move on. Maybe Mauro can't do that, and that outlook makes me insensitive to Mauro's condition, and if that's the case, it is what it is.

    I just don't see it. I make my day-to-day living working in PR and managing social media and if one of our employees made a comment that benign about another, it wouldn't even pop up on our radar.

    EDIT:
    Quote Originally Posted by Cult Icon View Post
    As the only person here who likely listened to the Observer audio this morning (unless you guys are long time hate listeners of the Observer, Pen and Coach) there is no agenda.
    I heard the audio and it was mounds of trash. It popped up on my YouTube homepage this morning and I gave it a curiosity listen because I thought that the whole situation was so preposterous.

    "He deleted it. He was told to delete it."
    "It's still active."
    "Oh, that's worse then..."

  18. #618
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    Pen, you remember how you used to get on me (and rightfully so) for commenting on WWE storylines when I stopped watching back in 2015? Well again, unless I'm mistaken, you don't subscribe to the Wrestling Observer. You don't read the Newsletter every Thursday, you don't listen to the podcasts or anything like that. So with all due respect, how can you sit here and say that Dave has an agenda when you don't actually read or listen to a thing he says and hear all about him secondhand?

    I'm not saying Dave is perfect mind you. For example, I thought (and still think) he could be covering the ROH story going on right now a bit closer than he is. But aside from the Seth Rollins story from a few weeks back (which was given to him by a source out to get Seth) he is easily the most accurate guy out there and easily the most objective. He gets a rap for being a WWE hater and an AEW shill when he in fact enjoys most of what WWE puts out (even RAW and Smackdown, which he is stunningly forgiving of most of the time) and has been critical of numerous AEW things such as Kenny Omega's storyline, the Halloween episode, to an extent the Omega-Moxley match (he thought it was well worked but overdone on the stunts), the bad comedy, ect. In fact, most of the criticisms I see from you and Coach, the two biggest Meltzer haters on here, are criticisms that he himself makes! But no one is going to know that unless they subscribe; otherwise most of what you see from him on Twitter (including stuff that is posted on this main page) is diluted into points that skew what he's trying to report and thus make him look like the Rovert's and Ringside News' of the world.

    But I'm telling you, as someone who is subscribed, reads and listens to as much Observer content as possible, I can tell you now that he is the real deal. He is not perfect and he has gotten stuff wrong but so has every single fucking news person in history. He's terrific at what he does and just as you thought it was unfair for me to criticize something I wasn't viewing, I think it's grossly unfair for you, Coach or anyone else on here who judges Meltzer by what they read by someone (inaccurately) quoting him on Twitter, Reddit or elsewhere to be doing the same.


    Quote Originally Posted by Team Farrell View Post
    "He deleted it. He was told to delete it."
    "It's still active."
    "Oh, that's worse then..."

    Or, and here me out on this Coach, Graves was told to take the tweet down, hasn't taken it down and that would in fact be worse because he's defying his employer! What a novel idea!
    Last edited by Cult Icon; 2 Weeks Ago at 04:52 PM.


  19. #619
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    The difference is he's supposed to be a journalist. I don't have to listen to his podcast to know proper journalism isn't what's taking place. This isn't to say dirtsheets/websites don't misunderstand his words when they repeat them, or take it out of context. But, he's been proven to provide false info as fact. It's happened in the last couple of weeks. He got called out by Corey to confirm whatever info his sources claim to have told him, and he doesn't. That's on Dave to regulate, and not regurgitate. He's a scumbag, and fuck him.

  20. #620
    Super Moderator Team Farrell's Avatar
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    My problem with Meltz is where his info comes from for the big companies like WWE. It's stooges with agendas of their own.

    Who'd he have gotten info from on this Corey thing? Frank Shamrock most likely, who made it clear he's not a Corey fan after his tweet. Plus, again, I heard the audio, he's obviously editorializing his disgust in support of his friend.

    I was on board with Dave actually until I started listening to what Bischoff had to say on him. Conrad will read, word for word, something from the Observer, often painting Bischoff in a negative or inept light, and Bischoff will say something like "Where did he get this info? Because I can tell you who was in the room and he wasn't getting it from them." It's often info from stooges, combined with connecting dots with what he believes to be true.

    I'm not saying that always the case, but even if that's the case 15% of the time, it's enough for me to doubt any of what he reports because I never know what's going to be a part of that 15%.

    I believe most of what he's saying with regards to AEW, but that's because they have a good relationship with him any Tony and the EVP's are just telling him things first hand. I don't believe that Vince or Triple H are on the horn with Dave.

  21. #621
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    Quote Originally Posted by PEN15v2 View Post
    The difference is he's supposed to be a journalist. I don't have to listen to his podcast to know proper journalism isn't what's taking place. This isn't to say dirtsheets/websites don't misunderstand his words when they repeat them, or take it out of context. But, he's been proven to provide false info as fact. It's happened in the last couple of weeks. He got called out by Corey to confirm whatever info his sources claim to have told him, and he doesn't. That's on Dave to regulate, and not regurgitate. He's a scumbag, and fuck him.

    There has been one instance of that; the Seth Rollins incident, which Dave immediately retracted when he found out his source had misled him and apologized to Seth on Twitter and on his site. Beyond that it hasn't happened this year. And before you throw out a number of instances where you believe he reported something that didn't happen, let me again remind you that you are getting all that supposed info he reported secondhand. When someone reports that Dave said so and so is returning or this is the plan and whatnot, most of the time that's not what is happening. What is actually happening is, on his podcasts, Dave gives a thought about where he thinks a story is going but he never claims it as fact; it then gets reported as fact afterwards by people looking for clicks on the website who use Dave's name to make it seem like news. When he has news he says it outright ("I was told this", "I was told that", generally with a few "umms" and "well you know's" thrown in. And guess what; most of the time he's right. Who had Roman Reigns vs. Brock Lesnar as the Wrestlemania main event twice a year before it happened? Dave Meltzer. Who was the one who revealed Becky Lynch would be getting moved into the Ronda Rousey match at Wrestlemania main event last year and who had the match being made into a triple threat before anyone else? Dave Meltzer. I could be here forever going through all the examples of things that have played out, both in WWE, AEW, New Japan and so on that Dave reported the past year that all turned out to be true, but you didn't hear about it because you were too busy listening to people turning his speculation on storylines as fact.

    No he isn't perfect. Yes he has gotten things wrong in the past. Yes he has gotten stuff wrong this year. But guess what; so has every journalist at least once. Fuck I've reported on stories in lucha libre and even I, who you all hold in such high regard (HA!) have gotten a story wrong. And I'll tell you why I got a story wrong; because the source I and my site had, a TV Network whose data had been authenticated by the wrestling promotion that was giving us the data, lied to both us and the promotion about the info we were receiving, and it was only after some serious digging that we were able to figure it out. In every field of journalism there is always someone trying to stretch the truth with reporters and even the best ones can fall victim at times. This is especially the case in wrestling, a business that is filled with con men, liars and workers who always have an agenda themselves. Wrestlers, promoters and yes, even TV Networks, lie all the time to reporters (sometimes even in bunches) and no matter how good you are, there are going to be occasions where you'll be fed something wrong by multiple sources and they'll get you. If it can happen to someone as off radar as me then it can happen to Dave Meltzer too and has. That doesn't take away from the fact that the majority of what he reports is correct. It just means he's human and like every other person (and reporter) makes mistakes. Oh boy!


  22. #622
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    I've called plenty of my colleague out on sloppy/bad work recently, both in private and in what are relatively public spaces. But the difference is, I suppose, that I've done it in the confines of my office. I've not tweeted it to a few thousand people, nor do I work for a company where a million odd people stare at it every week.

    Corey's criticisms are valid, for sure, but the ways he's done it isn't appropriate. Imagine if he'd criticised the 74 year old man shouting at him through the headset instead, and done that on Twitter. I doubt we'd be hearing much from him.

  23. #623
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    You can continue to spout his successes, but it doesn't change his lack of credibility with his errors. There's no reason to listen to anything he says. He panders to a negative audience, and I don't want any part of that, or the shit he spews. Nothing he says has any value to me as a wrestling fan. And his agenda is pushing negativity, and spreading BS. I don't care if you claim he's right, if in the end the info he shares is worthless. I know there's a "journalist" out there with the same record of credibility covering My Little Pony, and I'll say the same about them. Who gives a shit.

    When his suppositions are based on rumors, and people with agendas then yes, he becomes someone with an agenda. If he doesn't take the steps to prove his work, then his work is BS.

    You point to Seth Rollins as the only time he's wrong. That's incorrect. It's the only time he's be called out for being wrong, and he had to apologize and give a retraction. But even if you say this was only once, it ruins his credibility with everything he prints or says. At this point, I believe he's wrong more often than right, but most people don't call him out on it and demand an apology, the way Seth owned him.

    He's the head liar in a pack of lairs. Journalism isn't what it once was. It's all about revenue, and not about accuracy. You're right, he has the same credibility of someone on CNN or Fox News, and guess how much I respect their integrity?

    Fuck them all.

  24. #624
    Super Moderator Team Farrell's Avatar
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    I can see that my attempt to spur conversation went well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cult Icon View Post
    Fuck I've reported on stories in lucha libre and even I, who you all hold in such high regard (HA!) have gotten a story wrong.
    Hey buddy, we all love you. Except TO, she seems to want to fight you.

  25. #625
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    The match between T.O. and I is still on Coach! You better be at the 87th Aniversario to ref it, right after Pen takes on El Periodista (The Journalist) in the undercard.


  26. #626
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    The fight already happened. We just need to find a tv station big enough for my enormous ego to air it.

  27. #627
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    Will FS1 do?


  28. #628
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    I said big. You know, like yer momma's ass?

  29. #629
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    I've booked my ticket for the 87th Anniversario already.

    On that Meltzer/Rollins thing, is it at all interesting that WWE kind of leaned into that story a bit this week with the Raw opening?

  30. #630
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    Since we do not have a General Wrestling Thoughts/Questions thread in the Gen Wrestling Tab, I figured this was the best place to ask:

    Does anyone know anything about 'The Beast" from Women of Wrestling? From just pictures, she looks intimidating. So why hasn't the WWE come knocking on her door?

  31. #631
    Quote Originally Posted by Cult Icon View Post
    Did we ever discuss what was going on with Biff Busick, aka Oney Lorcan?
    Now it seems he re-signed. Maybe he’ll pull a Bennett and ask for his release again in a month.

  32. #632

  33. #633
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    I like Oney/Biff a lot, so I'm glad if that's true (and even if he was just messing about, still glad) - I just hope they find a more high profile singles spot for him than he has right now.

    I mean, a lot of the cruiserweights I don't really buy going to to toe with someone significantly larger than them, but Oney has a style that I think let's him go against pretty much anybody relatively believably.

  34. #634
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    I want him to keep tagging with Danny Birch (or is it Burch? )

  35. #635
    I find it fascinating that CM Punk is basically getting paid by Fox to trash and joke about WWE programming.

  36. #636
    Super Moderator Team Farrell's Avatar
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    I really enjoy him on the show so far, he's obviously actually having fun.

    Man, when he came back, people were shitting on him and calling him a sellout because he was laughing and joking and cut a promo on Tom Arnold and goofing with David Arquette. I guess people expected him to come back and be grumpy and hate everything and barely be able to get through it? Sometimes just having fun with people who get where you came from is just enjoyable, and you can really see that with Punk here.

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