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  1. #41
    Senior Member Gooner's Avatar
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    I'd go along with that. You could say he's Tyson-esque. While very different fighters, when they were on it, they were unbeatable. With AJ, we saw a lot of that before his first world title win, as well as against Klitscho (yes he got floored, but he came back and came back stronger after a round or two). Since then though... he hasn't quite been the same. There's been less aggression, more trepidation.

    Having said that, I think he'll beat Ruiz. All the great modern heavyweights have losses on their record. Is Lennox Lewis the only one that avenged every loss? Cos that's what AJ will have to do here.


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  2. #42
    Administrator Prime Time's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gooner View Post
    Since then though... he hasn't quite been the same. There's been less aggression, more trepidation.
    There's always a chance that losing, getting rid of that gremlin, could be the best thing for him. Take some of the pressure off, makes you less worried about being beaten, free you up a bit. Of course, he has to react the right way for that to be the case, because if he doesn't.... this could be the end of him as a top line fighter. And while he made it to the world championship, even that would feel a little bit like an anti-climax, now.

    "The worst moron is the one too stupid to realise they're a moron."

  3. #43
    Senior Member LWO4Life's Avatar
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    The thing with AJ is that he's a very European fighter. Very jab heavy, very calculating. It's the perfect style to beat a Deontay Wilder for example. If you lead with your jab against an untrained puncher like Wilder, you can dictate the pace of the fight, and jab your way to a points victory. It's what Tyson did against Wilder, but Tyson got caught twice by Wilder which led to the draw. AJ isn't getting caught.

    With Ruiz, it's a different ball game. He can't fight a fighter like Ruiz the same way. Even at his best, he has to change his game plan. Outside of the Joseph Parker fight, which many think Ruiz won, Ruiz hasn't lost. He's the first "Mexican" style boxer in the heavyweight division. Lots of head movement, body punching, something that I think AJ never had enough time to prepare for. I'm interested to see how he adjusts, because it's not as simple as, "at his best he'll beat Andy," it's more like, "with the right adjustments and better advice, he'll can have a chance to beat Ruiz." It's why in lower weight classes, European fighters have a hard time beating Mexican fighters. The best style to beat a Mexican fighter is the Sweet Pea Whitaker, Floyd Mayweather, Oscar de la Hoya (he wasn't a Mexican style fighter at all) style fighting or boring, defensive boxing with lots of movement. Unless you are like Manny Pacquiao and you can take punches with lots of heart, you are going to lose fighting any other way. Even Joseph Parker fought Andy Ruiz very boring and defensive. When AJ heard the boos in New York, he panicked and rushed in thinking the fans were turning on him for not knocking out Ruiz. That's when he got caught. He has to learn to block out the crowd, he has to learn to let the fight be boring and he has to stay away from Andy. Andy doesn't fight like a heavyweight that Joshua's seen before. He knows that now, and he mentally has to be okay with it. If you look at Ruiz's fight, most his fights don't end in a clean knockout, they usually end with the other fighting quitting. That's what many said Joshua did as well. Andy beats you mentally, not physically.

  4. #44
    Administrator Prime Time's Avatar
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    I didn't see the fight yesterday, but it sounds like Tyson Fury might have gotten away with one.

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  5. #45
    Senior Member LWO4Life's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prime Time View Post
    I didn't see the fight yesterday, but it sounds like Tyson Fury might have gotten away with one.
    It's weird because they really needed to stop that fight. The cut was bad. I've heard praise for the cut man, I've heard huge criticism for the cut man. Reality, that was a stoppable cut, yet Tyson was winning easily. Like they needed to stop it, but if they stopped it then Fury loses, and Fury was so far and above on points that it would have been a robbery. I was hoping they DQ'd Wallin when he thumbed Fury in the eye, or changed the ruling on the cut. I wanted the fight to be stopped because that cut was terrible. But I didn't want Fury to lose because he was dominating. But I'd be lying if sometime in the 8th or 9th round I thought, "Wouldn't it be cool if they stopped the fight and then really threw the Heavyweight division into craziness. LMAO.

  6. #46
    Administrator Prime Time's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LWO4Life View Post
    Like they needed to stop it, but if they stopped it then Fury loses, and Fury was so far and above on points that it would have been a robbery. .
    This is an interesting take for me, because I've always held that protecting your face - preventing cuts, if you like - is as important as protecting your chin. Unless someone has done something illegal to cause the cut I've never had a problem with fighters getting stopped for cuts. To me, it's ultimately no different to someone winning massively on the scorecard and getting caught with a sudden knockout. If you've taken that kind of damage.... well, you've taken the damage. Enough said, really.

    I wonder how much we'd actually see of Fury going forward if he did lose a shock fight like that, considering he's already disappeared once and in terms of his style he isn't the most marketable fighter.

    "The worst moron is the one too stupid to realise they're a moron."

  7. #47
    Senior Member LWO4Life's Avatar
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    I think we'll see a lot of Fury. Unlike before, I actually think he's not using PED's, and he's been losing weight naturally. He seems to be a work out freak now. He wants his match with Wilder, which I think Wilder will win this time. After that I see Fury being an attraction fighter like he is now. Only now he has a claim to the world title, a claim I personally don't agree with, but it's a claim that's easy to understand if you are just a casual boxing fan.

    As for the fight, watching it, it would have seemed weird to have Otto win. He just didn't have the pop to win a fight for a weak claim at the lineal title. Looking at the second cut, I'm actually shocked they didn't stop the fight. It was getting bad. The whole fight felt like the arena was trying to will Fury the victory, from the announcers telling the Fury corner about the commission's ruling that the cut was caused by an actual punch, to the ref not stopping the fight. It was all very suspect. But with that said, Fury was dominating the fight, I gave Otto like three rounds out of twelve. Had Fury lost, so many would have called the stoppage a fix. Looking at better pictures of the cut (I the time I had a pretty low quality stream live), I would have stopped it, maybe the round after it happened.

  8. #48
    Do I shit in the woods? BEAR's Avatar
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    So Nigel Benn has come out of retirement and will be fighting a guy, who although is 40, was a world champion 4 years ago.

    Benn is 55, Im worried. He lives around 30 minutes from me, and I trained in his gym a few times around this time last year. Hes still unbelievable but a 55 year old unbelievable

  9. #49
    Administrator Prime Time's Avatar
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    Benn was in the first fight I ever watched. Was a personal favourite of mine growing up, in the way that your first favourite fighter is always a bit special to you. Got no interest in seeing this. Worries me too.

    "The worst moron is the one too stupid to realise they're a moron."

  10. #50
    Administrator Prime Time's Avatar
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    Thoughts with Patrick Day, who is critical condition in hospital after being knocked out on the Usyk undercard.

    "The worst moron is the one too stupid to realise they're a moron."

  11. #51
    Senior Member LWO4Life's Avatar
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    There is a noticeable increase in these things happening, and boxers forced into coma and dying. With the increase in strength and fitness, it could be we reached a place where fighters are too strong to punch "for sport." Boxing was always bad, as deaths happened. But usually it was a prolong beating that would kill someone, Day it looks like got punched too badly. Secondly, the ref is at fault, as Day was stumbling back to his corner, You have to call that fight. Day wasn't catching up, the fight was out of reach, and his stumbling. The commissions need to look at every ref and see if they are waiting to long to call fights, and get rid of them.

  12. #52
    Administrator Prime Time's Avatar
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    I don't disagree. Since we first had this conversation, Day's lost his life. You're never going to have a safe combat sport but you've got to do what you can.

    "The worst moron is the one too stupid to realise they're a moron."

  13. #53
    Senior Member LWO4Life's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prime Time View Post
    I don't disagree. Since we first had this conversation, Day's lost his life. You're never going to have a safe combat sport but you've got to do what you can.
    Yeah, the thing is I love boxing. LOVE IT. I love that Tyson Fury is getting involved in WWE, I loved when Tyson was at WM14, Buster Douglas as ref for Hogan/Savage, Ali as guest referee at WM1, and all of that. I wrote a whole column, it was the most fun I ever had writing anything in my life, of what if Ali spent his boxing suspension doing wrestling in the territories. I say all that because I think boxing might need to be killed.

    In the top 10 of the heavyweight division according to BoxRec, which averages out the sanction bodies rankings, 5 of those boxers have tested positive for PEDs. Tyson Fury, Alexander Povetkin, Dillian Whyte, Jarrell Miller and Luis Ortiz all failed a drug test. That means they were stronger and hit harder than they would naturally. If they killed someone in the ring, and they tested positive for PEDs, what would happen. At the same time, if 5 of the 10 tested positive for PEDs in the past, that also means there are those that do PEDs and have never been caught. With that sample size, over half the top 10 of the heavyweight division have does PEDs. And I can assume that's the same for other divisions.

    Also, even if you think all fighters are clean, with the advancement of health and strength training, you have fighters who are stronger than ever. And the mission of the sport is to hit fighters in the head. In the 1950's, there were 3 deaths caused by boxing, in the 60's there were 3 deaths caused by boxing, in the 70's, there were 3 deaths caused by boxing; then in the 80's, as PEDs became more available in the late-70's, that number rose to 14 deaths in 10 years, dipped in the 90's to 10, rose to 12 in the 2000's, and now it's up to 14 again in the 10's. With the modern era of sports, deaths are happening more and more. Fighters are stronger than ever, even if they have weight classes. The human brain is not meant to get punched, but even more so by how strong fighters are now a days. And I mean, there was a time when you could write off some boxing deaths to being in bad rings in Mexico or South East Asia, but now it's happening more and more in the US and UK. Modern advance medicine can't help fighters anymore. It might be time to take the sport out. Or maybe go bare knuckles, which in the bare knuckle days fighters rarely hit in the head. But I think boxing as we know it is done.

  14. #54
    Administrator Prime Time's Avatar
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    Perhaps this is a relief, but the Nigel Benn comeback fight is off due to a shoulder injury, and he's decided to call it quits (again) instead. In sparring he got into a position where he just couldn't throw the right, apparently. All I can say is thank god it happened now rather than in an actual fight.

    "The worst moron is the one too stupid to realise they're a moron."

  15. #55
    Administrator Prime Time's Avatar
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    Interesting. The one pundit/trainer who picked Ruiz last time has switched sides and said he thinks AJ will win the rematch.

    "The worst moron is the one too stupid to realise they're a moron."

  16. #56
    Senior Member LWO4Life's Avatar
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    Which pundit was that? Freddie Roach? If so, I think he's more concern with Ruiz's weight lose. He use to train him so he knows him better than anybody.

  17. #57
    Administrator Prime Time's Avatar
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    Kevin Barry.

    From the story (credit BBC)

    Barry emphatically warned Ruiz could prove everyone wrong when he spoke at a news conference 24 hours before the underdog did just that.

    The New Zealander was at New York's Madison Square Garden because Parker was joining forces with Joshua's promoter Eddie Hearn. But the journalists present had one thing on their minds - whether Briton Joshua would face Deontay Wilder after beating Ruiz.

    "I had history with Andy," says Barry, the 1984 Olympic light-heavyweight silver medallist.

    "In 2013 I was asked if I would train him. Had the opportunity not been so exciting with Parker, I probably would have.

    "In the first year we ended up sparring Ruiz. The first time, Joseph looked at this overweight guy joking around in the ring and looked at me disbelieving and said: 'Are you serious?'

    "Within the first 15 seconds Andy hit him about 20 times. On the way home, Joseph apologised to me."

    Three years on, Parker beat Ruiz on points in Auckland to win the WBO world title. It remains Ruiz's only defeat.

    Barry says: "Andy was on TV coming off the plane, an overweight, short guy. I spent two weeks trying to convince the public that this was a fight against one of the toughest, most battle-hardened fighters at heavyweight.

    "You take the mask aside - and by mask I mean the extra weight - and you have a man who was a good amateur and a man I've watched chop down big guys time and again.

    "I took Parker to fight Joshua in Cardiff in 2018, so I had a front-row insight into that too. Parker has told me the hardest he has ever been hit was by Ruiz.

    "I kept thinking about that and Ruiz had just been written off. So I made my opinion known."

    Barry was in the front row for the seven rounds during which Ruiz sent Joshua to the canvas four times.

    As soon as the IBF, WBA and WBO belts were handed to Ruiz, conspiracy theories began to circulate about Joshua's health. His team have dismissed them as fiction.

    "I said to Parker when Joshua was in the ring before the fight: 'Something isn't quite right,'" says Barry, 60. "His body language was different. He looked like someone who shouldn't really be in there."

    Six months on, despite being the champion, Mexican-American Ruiz is again the underdog with the bookmakers.

    Barry, who has trained fighters for almost three decades, believes the outcome may hinge on if the champion can again apply constant pressure. At 6ft 2in - though many think he is closer to 6ft - Ruiz must not allow Joshua the chance to make the most of his 6ft 6in frame.

    He says: "The biggest adjustment for 'AJ' is dealing with Ruiz coming forward as he has not handled that well. Joshua likes to control and dictate. When that is taken away from him, he has shown a weakness.

    "The big thing about controlling the pressure of Andy is you have to train yourself to embrace the pressure and not be restricted, depleted or panicked. Being pressed forces you to keep thinking, and that mental pressure will drain you every bit as fast as the physical pressure, if not more.

    "To deal with it, Joshua must make the proper use of his height and reach. If he does the same as last time, the result will be the same."

    Joshua has shared social media videos of him honing his footwork since losing to Ruiz. In recent interviews he has stressed he has prioritised working on his skills over other aspects of training.

    "Dare I say it, he needs to be more like Wladimir Klitschko," says Barry, referring to the former world heavyweight champion.

    "At 6ft 6in, you must use that jab. When you have so many attributes and strengths, you must use them. Don't gamble."

    Raising his voice, he adds: "All he has to do is win seven of 12 rounds. I think he will realise - and he really needs to - that you don't have to win every fight by a knockout."

    Barry says Joshua will have needed to work on his mentality after his defeat by Ruiz.

    "You have to look at why you were knocked down four times and if you don't dissect it back to the root, you can never give yourself the mental confidence to move forward," he adds.

    It is reported Joshua will earn a minimum of $85m (66m) at Diriyah Arena. There is obvious reward but colossal risk - and not just for him.

    Hearn has built a formidable stable of fighters, but Joshua is his biggest draw. DAZN - the streaming service Joshua is affiliated to in the US - has banked on his success. A second defeat would hurt both.

    "The stakes could not be any higher for Joshua, his trainer Robert McCracken, for DAZN, and Eddie Hearn is under huge pressure," says Barry.

    "It has all the makings of a classic in a country that has never seen a fight on this scale before. It does make you think back to fights like the 'Thrilla in Manila' and 'Rumble in the Jungle'."

    So who wins this time?
    Muhammad Ali pulled off a major upset against George Foreman at the 'Rumble' in Zaire in 1974. Foreman said he "lost something as a man" that night. So did Joshua at Madison Square Garden?

    "Ruiz has the belts and everyone says once you become champion you're 10% better and I think that is a fair statement," says Barry.

    "But I think Joshua will fight a totally different fight. When he had Ruiz down, all he had to do was take his time but he ran in with the wrong punches and put himself there to be hurt.

    "This time we will see more poise. If he uses his skills and controls the pressure, I think Joshua wins the fight."

    Ruiz shocked the world in June. But not Barry.

    Now the man who warned we could see a new world champion in New York believes the belts will be changing hands again.

    "The worst moron is the one too stupid to realise they're a moron."

  18. #58
    Senior Member LWO4Life's Avatar
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    I haven't wrote this on any of my social media yet, but I think Joshua will win too. But I think he's going to very much Floyd Mayweather it. I think Joshua will use his size and jab and grab Ruiz, pulling off the point victory. Ironically grabbing is suppose to be illegal, but it's basically become part of the game now. Joshua is already talking a trilogy, which leads me to believe that he feels he's going to win, but it wouldn't be satisfying with fans, and so they'll have a third fight in England for the WBA and IBO titles (IBF and WBO titles will be stiped due to lack of fighting the mandatory challengers) and Joshua will win that fight too in similar fashion. Sometimes boxing can be as predictable as wrestling.

    Also remember, in the last fight, after 6 rounds one card had Joshua winning and another had Joshua only down one point. We are going to see similar type cards that favor Joshua even if Ruiz is winning. Plus the referee selected is notorious for letting the "A-side" fighter get away with more grabbing and stretching of the rules.
    Last edited by LWO4Life; 1 Day Ago at 02:21 PM.

  19. #59
    Administrator Prime Time's Avatar
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    Man, I love a grab. I've never boxed properly but I've done a bit of sparring but getting into the clinch and working on the inside is one of my favourite things to do, haha! Never really considered it illegal so long as you aren't doing it excessively and are breaking on command, which I think is the BBBofC's take on it.

    I tend to think if you can box your way to a win on the scorecards, then the other guy isn't 'winning' unless he can turn it around (as Ruiz obviously did in the first fight). I've never really thought that you can claim to be winning, I think that's more something you have to factor in to various fight strategies. Much like I tend to think you have to box a certain way to protect a cut and you can't get upset if you don't change your game and the ref/doctor steps in. I don't think you can anticipate cards going away from the 'winner', because that only happens when a judge gets it wrong, and though it happens more often than we'd like I also find it's not something you can really predict.

    "The worst moron is the one too stupid to realise they're a moron."

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