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  1. #201
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    While I agree that there is one hell of a long game being played here, I hope it's not rushed in the last 3 episodes. However, this thing going full circle all the way from the end of last season is pretty damn cool.

    Jake Strong is definitely the Lord of the Limo, I'm totally sure of that at this point, or at the very least he is NOW. It's very possible Strong was "taken" by the Lord after seeing his amazing strength and fortitude. Damn, like what previously said, caring about a guy I don't want to care about. CURSE YOU LUCHA UNDERGROUND!!

    With that being said, I have some major problems with the last episode.

    1.) The Gift of the Gods medallions just randomly being given out willy-nilly. Come on now, does anyone believe Big Bad Steve would ever win a Medallion? He hasn't won a match yet. The Medallions need to be EARNED and I feel like they sort of ran out of time there to make that work.
    2.) Dante Fox returning in a throwaway fashion with no explanation or storyline and thrown into the GOTG Battle Royal. Again, how does he earn a Medallion when he hasn't even been around all season. That return needed to be bigger than it was considering the way he went out.
    3.) Um, just because Sammy Guevara beat up Famous B doesn't mean he's not still under contract. Duh!

  2. #202
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    The idea that Strong is the Lord is the best one I've heard yet. I still really don't care for Strong or his push but at the very least it would make things fall better into place, and I wouldn't feel so pissed about him rolling over guys who obviously should be able to take him on evenly like Drago and Aerostar.

    Agree with Rob on those three points, particularly the first two. On a similar note, Ivelisse/XO/Sammy getting a trios title match despite all three of them being multiple time losers in recent matches seemed a bit off as well. I guess time is limited but still.

    At the time of watching I also found the Jake Strong filled episode very tiresome, but now that we've talked over some theories I don't feel quite so annoyed about that.

  3. #203
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    I just wish they'd shown us some of the working for that, at least a couple more hints via backstage promo or similar, to lead us as viewers down that line. Even now, we're speculating as to what it might actually mean in the context of the whole show.

    It's possible that, if this is the long game they've been playing, LU4's biggest mistake will be not laying that groundwork in the earlier episodes. I might, just might, have been able to accept Strong and the way he has been presented had we known all along that there was a mythical reason for him being all powerful.

  4. #204
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    I don't think they were actually capable of doing that with the budget they had. Unfortunately the thing that helped LU get season four into production (lesser budget, fewer episodes) has been the one thing that has really hamstrung them. It's why they you've seen far more things play out in ring then backstage, why there's been one, maybe two scenes per episode now instead of more and why in the last episode we got the completely rushed Gift of the Gods set up, a rushed Dante Fox return and that silly Sammy Guevara thing (I wasn't a fan of either and thought the episode was a waste beyond the Strong stuff and that really good main event with Mundo). I do know for a fact that LU was originally supposed to have 26 episodes and then it was cut back to 22 at the last second (thus eliminating a full weekend of tapings) so I wouldn't doubt that whatever they had planned for the medallions got erased along with those extra episodes. In any event, that sort of stuff has definitely harmed the show. I still think they're doing as good a job as they can and up until last week the show was really catching fire; the episodes Marty won the title, defended against Mariposa and the Pentagon/Reklusa match were all top notch (and Ultima Lucha still looks like a killer show, especially with this Strong stuff hanging over it). But it's definitely not what season's 1, 2 and 3 were. If it was then there would've been at least two scenes already hinting at what Strong is really involved with.


  5. #205
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    100% agree that from Marty winning the title up to this last episode was straight fire, maybe one of the best multi-week stretches LU has had. Having 4 episodes cut last minute definitely seems to explain the rushed GOTG thing, which is a shame but if you have to cut some content I'm not sure what would be a better choice. Feel the worst for Fox though, hopefully he's got something at UL4 to make up for it, not just in the ring but in terms of his character. Hoped they saved some budget for some cool final scenes.

    UL4 still looks freaking awesome by the way, so I'm hyped for it!

    Cult, if anyone would know it'd be you: any word at all on the chances of season 5?

  6. #206
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    I'd venture to guess they did put a lot of the budget into a final montage so we will get that. And Fox will get his moment tonight. It seems like everyone missed that there's going to be a Seven to Survive match tonight for the Gift of the Gods; Fox vs. Aerostar vs. PJ Black vs. Strong vs. Big Bad Steve vs. Hernandez vs. King Cuerno (Antonio announced it after the Battle Royal last week). They rushed themselves getting to it and, kayfabe wise, Big Bad Steve and Hernandez don't entirely belong but it should be a hell of a match, especially since it's probably going to take up the whole show. I wouldn't doubt that Fox wins the match actually. Strong seems like they guy they're building to but it's so unbelievably obvious that I'm guessing either Fox or Aerostar, who Strong has obviously been beefing with, will steal it. LU can then have Strong go after them in season five or, if they want to move quickly, they can use it to set up another Ultima Lucha match where Strong takes the title then. Antonio's new rules would still allow him to get involved in the main event if he were to win.

    As for season five, all indications are it will happen. I haven't asked recently but the last I heard was that Dorian Roldan (who is heavily involved in the business side of LU things, though not creative) is determined to make sure this goes at least seven seasons, when all the initial LU deals expire. After that who knows, but as we're only at season four now that would seem to guarantee season five will happen unless El Rey decided to pull the plug now, and there's no indication they're thinking that. I remember hearing something about LU doing the same thing they did this year where they taped for several weeks in February and March and making that a reoccurring thing, so if that's the case we should be hearing about a season five soon and can expect the tapings around that time in 2019. But obviously I cannot swear to that. I've also heard they may return to the old Temple, which would be cool. Nothing against the new place (I honestly forget sometimes that it isn't the old Temple besides the WCW Saturday Night style entrance door) but it be nice to return to the old Temple again.


  7. #207
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    Awesome to hear, Cult. And I agree, the original Temple would be cool, the new one has been fine but it's just not quite the same somehow.

    I did recall the GOTG match coming up tonight, but I do feel like Strong is a lock to win the belt. His push has been so strong (no pun intended), I think they're just gonna go all the way with him. I'd be happier to be wrong though, Fox getting that belt and then being inserted in something big to set up the next season would be very cool.

  8. #208
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    This episode picks up right where the two before last week left off. GREAT EPISODE! Seven to Survive match is awesome and the scene at the end has major ramifications for the last two episodes.


  9. #209
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    Yeah, I really enjoyed it this week. I'm a fan of the gauntlet/elimination match style anyway, so when I was always going to enjoy them doing it here.

    Loved that ending sequence, which worked in terms of storylines from this season. I'm not quite sure what they're doing with Drago right now and don't really want to search out the UL match listings to see if he turns up there, but certainly feel like there's something more to do with him.

  10. #210
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    I enjoyed this week too, but I felt like the outcome was always pretty apparent. Not one of those in the ring was going to hand Strong his first loss, just wasn't going to happen. Now though I'm uneasy about the Main Event at UL, because Strong can interject himself at any time, so either he puts himself in a 3-way with Pentagon and Marty, or he just picks off whomever wins and has the hell beaten out of him, making it a "MITB" style cash-in. The good thing about the GOTG was that the match was always competitive. This new rule cheapens that, and I fear that's exactly what we're going to see.

    As for Drago, he's not booked on UL, nor is Aerostar at this point, but that doesn't mean they won't get involved somehow.

    And come on, what was the point in bringing Dante Fox back for two episodes and then breaking his ankle. That was a waste.

    I love Lucha Underground very much, but it's falling into some very familiar patterns.

  11. #211
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    The new rule with the Gift of the Gods definitely is something that shouldn't last beyond this season (though as long as it makes sense in how they tell the story it doesn't stick in my side that much). The Dante Fox thing is totally understandable though on every front. We all know why they wanted him back (he's great) and they wrote him off here because there wasn't anything for him at Ultima Lucha IV; the only thing would've been him vs. Strong one on one (with Fox winning last night so Strong could beat him in a week or two), which I personally would've done but it's not the end of the world that they didn't (and frankly the same thing would've happened that happened last night). Part of the problem with big shows these days is that promotions try to find a spot for everyone when it probably be best to go with what they have. So I'm fine with how they used Fox and the ankle break likely means he'll be one of the major challengers and maybe even the guy to dethrone Strong in season five (I'd put the money on him, Pentagon or Aerostar, who seems to always be linked with Strong and also has a habit of not getting his ankle broken. There are no coincidences in LU; him continuing to escape the break means something). It's not a waste; it's just something that will play out further down the line.


  12. #212
    I was thinking Fox's appearance maybe was just contractual. He was busy but was required to make an appearance at some point? Maybe not.

  13. #213
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    So we got Week 1 of Ultima Lucha Cuatro in the books. It was......ok. The opening 6-person Trios 3-way was decent, but nothing overwhelming. Not sure of the purpose of doing the whole Sammy Guevara angle since he ended up missing half the match. Ivelisse and X-O are stars though, let me just say that. Ivelisse has never looked better now that she's past her injuries and I'm just going to say it, that shot when she bent over and Sammy went over her back to the floor had my jaw drop. Damn!

    Taya/Ricky was......a match. It was a necessary squash, but I feel like the whole "doll" thing ended up amounting to nothing, unless it carries over into Season 5.

    Killshot vs. Havoc was really quite good though, if not a little silly at times. There were also a couple really slow spots which you could easily see where spots were being set-up that seemed to take too long. Crowd got quiet just waiting for something to happen. They're both so good though that this one was solid all around. As expected, we got the Killshot unmasking, and a bit of redemption for the character at the end. Striker sold the moment well, which helped. Based on the final cinematic, it looks like Lt. Jermaine "Killshot" Strickland has left the Temple, but Dante Fox may be sticking around.

    Two hour finale this upcoming week.

  14. #214
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    I wonder if they purposefully put the lesser matches (for the most part) on this show because they knew it'd do a low rating on Halloween?

    Overall I did think it was pretty good, nothing amazing but I didn't expect it to be on paper.

    I like that they finished the arc of captain Vasquez, even if it was a bit anticlimactic. Also seemingly done with stock footage? But better that than a dangling loose end. Got to wonder who Aerostar will be giving that amulet to now.

    The trios match was fun, the Spanish Fly was awesome of course. I was sort of rooting for XO/Ivelisse/Sammy but also sort of not, since they've never even teamed before and it doesn't feel right to win the titles on the first go. Great performance from all three though. I’m not that into the current reptile tribe, was rooting for the Rabbits, to be honest. Killer Kross has great presence and may well be a real star. Lots more of him to do in season 5, hopefully.

    Taya/Ricky was simple but effective, fit the story well. I like that Taya sold how pissed off she was. If you think about it Ricky is a bit sympathetic though, all he did was love Johnny and WWU and they treated him badly until he went insane. But it's not cool to be a fanboy, so he deserves nothing but punishment!

    Killshot/Havoc was excellent overall a nice capper on this feud with some cool spots. Might have liked it more if it was Killshot and someone he had more history with, or they had more plunder to work with, but still good. Final vignette was very effective but I’ll miss Strickland dearly, I can only assume he’s looking to move to NXT. At this rate he'll be there in 3-6 months, so more power to him. DEFINITELY hope AR Fox sticks around, was intrigued by his mysterious "mission" and really liked how they left it between the characters.

    They left all the best stuff for next week, and I'm super excited. Penta/Marty, Feniz/Azteca, Mack/Muertes, and Mundo/Matanza could ALL potentially be show stealers.

  15. #215
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    I'm ready for the finale now, all the matches on it should really deliver.

    I was kind of hoping they'd give a bucket of time to the 2/3 falls match. I'm not sure it's going to get that on the show coming, but I think it will deliver.

    My only fear is Strong walking around with GotG to act as spoiler on whoever wins between Marty and Pentagon. It's the easy cash in opportunity, but I hope if it does happen they at least treat it the way they did Puma Vs Pentagon at UL3 and have something competitive. I fear we won't really be getting that given the match that would lead into it, though.

    And, I mean, that's all dependent of Strong continuing to underwhelm. Maybe season 5 he starts to light it up. Chavo's still under contract, so at least his Soaring Eagle is there for him.

  16. #216
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    I thought we were past Strong being underwhelming in the ring. The early season stuff is still too one sided for my taste but I thought he was really good with Johnny Mundo and especially good in the Seven to Survive match. And he's not the type of guy I would've thought to gel with Dante Fox the way he did. I think if anything he's been done a bit of a disservice by LU saving the big reveal about his role till later. Maybe that was for budget reasons, but if we have an inkling that Strong is the Lord or whoever right before he starts feuding with Aerostar and Drago then I think the push feels more complete as opposed to him squashing people for weeks before they finally got around to it/making his matches competitive.


  17. #217
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    I think the biggest thing with him has been the lack of him being in competitive matches, in fairness, which certainly has been rectified in recent weeks. Hopefully they stick with that framework for him going forward, and maybe they'll have to with him as champion.

    It's interesting to think about him in context with Matanza. Matanza we knew early on was unfathomably strong and a god in a boiler suit, so it was kind of cool when he just strode out to the ring, wrecked someone in a couple of minutes, then strode off again. Even him sacrificing people this season could be dealt with. But without that back story Strong doesn't get the same understanding. Maybe you're right, Cult, maybe we just need that story to connect the dots and contextualise everything. I'm really interested to see if we get that shot of Strong with the gauntlet during UL4 Part 2, because if so there's got to be some interesting story leading up to it.

  18. #218
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    The fact that Strong actually isn't booked for the finale leads me to believe something big is going to happen, whether we like it or not. The two hour finale should be a cracker though, with damn fine matches all around. The only problem with the finale is that it's the finale. Again, we'll wait.

  19. #219
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    I do agree that revealing him as The Lord would have helped make accepting the Jake Strong super push easier. But I don't know what to tell you Cult, he was a bit better in the past few weeks but I'll stop thinking he's underwhelming in his role when he stops underwhelming me. If he does walk out of season 4 with the LU title, it's hard to imagine that I won't be at least somewhat disappointed. I have faith in LU to execute it well and maybe I'll be turned around yet, it's happened before, so we'll see.

  20. #220
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    I don't even know where to start on the Finale, so let's just go in match order.

    Fenix/Dragon was actually kind of disappointing, and from talking to Cult it sounds as though it suffered from some serious editing due to the length of it and only getting 2 hours for the finale. Apparently they wanted 3 and got denied, so this was the match that suffered. It's a shame because I wanted that to be so much better, which is probably was live.

    Then we get our new ring announcer for the night, a member of Lucha royalty, daughter of Eddie, Shaul Guerrero. Her interaction with Famous B and Chavo was spot on and she actually does the 3 Amigos better than Chavo. Great add to the Temple

    Mack/Muertes was a good, solid hardcore battle, and the fans really, really love Big Willie Style. I'm not sure where either goes from here, as Mil seems kind of lost without Catrina and now that he's been buried again we'll have to see how he comes back this time.

    Mundo/Matanza was good, but the sound effects were a little corny at times with the blows from the gauntlet. I love the cheesiness of LU at times, but then there are instances where it just doesn't work. Good match, and I guess we've seen the end of the big man it seems.

    Marty/Pentagon was insanely brutal. Marty bled something fierce and the proverbial Crimson Mask he wore was a striking visual. I love the actual match itself as well. The Vampiro turn at the end I think was pretty obvious to most, but the reveal of his Master was something different.

    Of course then we get the inevitable Jake Strong cash-in which I hated to see coming, but in the context of what came AFTER, it worked. I'm not thrilled at the cheapness of it, but I appreciate what is to come.

    The ending montage was insane. Cuerno/Aero and Dragon giving the Gauntlet to a returning Black Lotus to kill Matanza, then Strong taking it from Azteca afterwards and breaking his leg. Taya now seems to be possessed by a creepy doll, which does not bode well for Mr. and Mrs. Slamtown. Then the giant reveal of the Conglomerate of Evil. Antonio Cueto, Vampiro's Master, Jake Strong and........freaking Bad News Barrett as the the man in the shadows all working together. That's some crazy shit right there.

    But on the flip side, Aero has perhaps made a deal with another kind of devil by reincarnating Dario with the medallions he took from Captain Vasquez. Does the side of good NEED Dario to fight Papa Cueto and their crew? That's damn scary if true.
    Last edited by Rob S.; 1 Week Ago at 12:07 PM.

  21. #221
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    Watching this tonight with no spoilers, very excited!!

  22. #222
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    This will be a long post so bare with me (avoid mizfan, AVOID!)


    -On last week's Masked, Mats and Mayhem podcast Eric Van Wagenen (LU's Executive Producer) and Chris Roach (Chris DeJoseph's lieutenant writer) revealed they approached El Rey about making the show three hours in order to get everything in. For whatever reason, El Rey declined, leaving the show at two hours. At that point they had to cut stuff down and, while they didn't say this on the podcast, it appears it came down to cutting parts of Fenix-Azteca or the Shaul Guerrero debut. They cut parts from the former and kept the latter in, and thus Fenix-Azteca came off far less than it probably was. It was still good all things considered, but there's definitely a better version of the match out there and it's a shame El Rey didn't give us the three hour show so we could see it.

    -That said, I'm find with them cutting that down and leaving Shaul's debut intact. I thought that got the show back on track immediately following the opener, and Shaul herself seems to have inherited Eddie's charisma. She felt like a star on the microphone and her interactions with Famous B were great. I didn't need to have Chavo out there (even though he fit) and I would've preferred Shaul doing the Frog Splash as a capper, but for all I know she's not far enough along to do that. The Three Amigos were awesome though, and everything else about the segment ruled. If Shaul can work, she's a superstar waiting to happen.

    -Mack and Mil was tremendous fun. I don't know what more there is to say than that, other than I'm thrilled they finally gave Mack his big win. I think that helped elevate the match in a way; Mil winning would've been fine but the whole story was about Mack overcoming his fear of Mil and getting that big singles victory he's lacked. Was really happy for him and it was a hell of a match.

    -I think Johnny Mundo-Matanza is going to wind up being very underrated. It was not a traditional match in any sense and that's what I loved about it. It was basically a human chess match mixed with a chase scene, all about Johnny getting the glove and Matanza trying to keep it away (while foolishly not using the glove himself). In the end Johnny out ran Matanza, out smarted Matanza and beat him thanks to the glove. I loved it, and I especially loved how Matanza, this all power being, crumbled at the sight of the gauntlet. Jeff Cobb was outstanding with that and I will miss him on this show (though I have heard he may return! Sure he had his heart torn out, but I think Aerostar has proven nothing is impossible for him!).

    -Speaking of Aerostar, I can't believe he got Johnny to give up the gauntlet by merely playing to his vanity! That totally wouldn't have worked on Cage. On the one hand I'd say the move didn't work out for Aerostar, but on the other hand if Johnny had kept the glove then Taya would've gotten it...so maybe it did work out?

    -Pentagon-Marty was off the charts. I think Hell of War was slightly better as a death match but this had elements of that, the WMD match, Fenix-Marty, the original Cero Miedo match...it was just stupendous. Pentagon is a rock star and Marty is just unbelievable. HOW DOES HE NOT GET WORK ELSEWHERE?! His story this season was just tremendous and it felt like the show turned it up once he won that title. His reign was short, but it will go down as one of the best and I can't wait to see what LU has in store for him when/if we get to season five.

    -Nice to see Reklusa one last time before she disappears into the NXT void.

    -They remembered the Vampiro master angle! His master is Hexagon Black and he is played by long time overlooked AAA luchador Australian Suicide. As you can see, he is a very athletic man.

    -Obviously there isn't much to the Strong-Pentagon match but I have to commend LU for a) making the victory as much of a fluke as possible for Strong and b) making Pentagon look like the bad ass to end all bad asses even in defeat. The man went through that death match, got beaten up by Vampiro and Hexagon, had his ankle snapped in half and STILL NEVER SUBMITTED! Watch it again if you don't believe me; he is conscious for several seconds after Strong breaks his ankle and never gives up; he holds out until he, as JR would say, passes out from the pain and the match ends it stoppage. Even after all that he never gave in. LU couldn't have done a better job making him look great in defeat, while also making it clear that Strong is just a means to an end. Pentagon is still the top dog of LU.

    -There are many reasons I love Lucha Underground; one of them is they're the only promotion out there that would find Black Lotus and bring her in to wrap up that story by being the one to kill Matanza. As it should've been. Well done LU, well done.

    -I can't believe Aerostar listened to Azteca instead of King Cuerno. I mean it's fucking El Dragon Azteca Jr.! Nothing goes right for him. Aerostar should've known the moment he gave him the glove it would be lost to the Order. Oh well; guess Aerostar is allowed one mistake.

    -Remember this; early in season three Dario Cueto gave Ricky Mundo those pictures of the Island of the Dolls, knowing it would send him there. It did, Ricky came back with Rosa, Rosa eventually fell into Taya's grasps and boom; the Order now has another god inhabiting a human body. It was the plan all along. Yet another brilliant move by LU (and you gotta love Rosa, or whoever the god is, never once considering to jump into Ricky. Even in kayfabe Ricky is useless!). Now we get to see her vs. Johnny with him trying to save her, which could wind up being another emotional angle alongside Fenix and Melissa.

    -I love sociopathic, aloof Jake Strong. The way he simply said "Matanza" in that detached voice when asked who had died was awesome.

    -Wade Barrett. How I have missed you.

    -The way I see it the battle lines have no been drawn. The Order is Barrett, Strong, Taya, Winter, Hexagon (gotta love Australian Suicide going from the outhouse to the penthouse in one fell swoop), Vamp by association and at least one other to replace Matanza. The heroes are Pentagon, Aerostar, Cuerno, Azteca, Drago (via friendship with Aerostar) and the seven tribes, provided none join with the Order (looking at you, reptiles and moths!). Notice how LU set up the good side to be the luchadores and the villains to be (largely) North American stars who fans think are taking time away from the luchadores. Gotta love LU playing with that dynamic.

    -Aerostar is a legend.

    -HE HAS RISEN!

    This has not been the easiest season of Lucha Underground, given the budget cuts, the lack of backstage scenes and the polarizing push of Jake Strong. And yet in the end, LU made it all work with this episode and especially those final five minutes. We've got Dario Cueto back. Pentagon in defeat was made to look even stronger. Aerostar, for all the talk of being buried by Strong, has become the number two technico in the company behind Pentagon simply because of the role he's played in the backstage scenes. A whole slew of compelling storylines were set up for next season, especially the main one. Hell, this scene paid off angles during this season that we didn't even know was happening; did anyone out there think that Catrina giving her half of the amulet to Melissa would lead to Dario Cueto coming back to life?! Did anyone think the amulet would play any part like it did back when it was introduced in the second episode of season three? For all I know there are things in this season we aren't think about now that will pay off huge down the road (possibly something like Dante Fox' secret mission). It just goes to show you that you can never count this creative team out. They know what they're doing and they always, ALWAYS, find a way even when you least expect it.

    What a show. I don't know if I have ever loved a promotion quite like Lucha Underground and I'm damn sure not ready for it to go away. Bring on season five. Bring on the great war. BRING ON MORE EL JEFE!


  23. #223
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    Yeah, agreed with that last point there Cult - there have been difficulties, some of which have been well covered here if not all, but ultimately I think the last few episodes of the season, pretty consistently, they really found their storytelling stride and got it all moving forward really well to lead into the big finale. And the thing is, there were aspects of the finale I didn't especially like - I thought, for example, that the use of Melissa in the Fenix/Azteca match was a little too overwrought for my liking, and I didn't particularly love that Shaul's reveal led into a 6/7 minute segment on Ultima Lucha - but those are relatively minor points and didn't take away from how much I enjoyed everything there.

    In fact, I would say that Azteca vs Fenix makes a lot more sense to me now knowing the above from you, Cult, and the details from the MMM podcast, because it did feel a little bit jarring at points and didn't quite flow like I would have expected work between those two to have done. Everything else on the card delivered to make up for my slight disappointment in the opener, and I think my personal favourite was Matanza vs Mundo. It was fun, it was a bit silly, it worked with the whole Temple, it didn't go overly long or feel overly long, and it told the story of both the match itself and the mythos of the show itself. They treated the gauntlet story really well, I thought, and managed to put a match together that both had the power and importance of the gauntlet at its heart whilst not neglecting the story of the two people involved. And yeah, Matanza recognising that he was vulnerable to the gauntlet, possibly vulnerable to his opponent one on one for the first time in the Temple, was terrific. As was his entrance gear, which holy shit.

    Mack vs Muertes was good, great in parts, and I'm super happy to see Mack pick up the win. For some reason I was expecting Catrina to show her face, possibly in one of the coffins, and the fact she wasn't sort of disappointed me. I think her presence in the opening video teased me and then there wasn't a pay off, even though that was her place in a different story to the Mack/Muertes one. Still, good fun.

    And the man was incredible - off the charts intensity, and probably the best out and out brawl LU has delivered since the first Cero Miedo match for me. I love that they tied so much stuff into that from the past of the show as well, which made it really work.

    And hey, they paid of the Vampiro Master story! I'm so glad they went there, and Australian Suicide looked awesome. Hexagon Black? I'm down with it, and even that ties in to the birth of Pentagon as (if I'm right?) the rival of Octagon in Mexico.

    I love that they're building up for the Great War, too. I can see how this show is playing out in the long run, and while season 4 was certainly hurt by the budget issues and so on it did, eventually, deliver. And you know what? If I can contextualise it against the end of season 3, where LU lost the person they'd hung the show on for so long in Puma, and a great season 5, which is certainly set up to be completely baller, I think seeing season 4 as a somewhat soft, in places hard, reset will let that pay itself off. They introduced and removed a lot of characters here, but season 5 will hopefully see something more steady in terms of roster and allow them to focus in on telling us the stories of the people involved, developing their characters, and making them worthwhile.

    Is it just me that's already sketching out Strong, Hexagon, Barrett (maybe?), and someone else squaring off against a team of Aerostar, Cuerno, Azteca and Pentagon in something utterly, utterly ridiculous for control of LU, Antonio in one corner and Dario in the other (somehow)?

  24. #224
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    I saw the finale!! And I have so many thoughts....

    It sounds like I liked Fenix/Azteca more than most! I'm not shocked to hear it was chopped up a bit in editing but I think they still got where they needed to go and worked a lot of awesome stuff in there. Fenix DARK is awesome, and Azteca impressed too, that Victory Bomb (don't care if that's not the real name) off the top through the table looked spectacular. I get what Ollie's saying that the Melissa stuff was a bit melodramatic in the timing, but I think it worked for me. Even though she knows Fenix may be lost, she can't bring herself to accept it. I wonder if Melissa might try to make some dark deal with some of the more powerful forces on the show to bring him back? Really feel like she's being driven to the point of desperation, and I'm loving it.

    Didn't mind the Shaul Guerrero stuff but like Ollie I thought it took up a bit more time than it should have at such a big show. I love Famous B as much as the next person and it was a good segment, so it didn't bother me much, I just wish there was more time. I agree Shaul actually did 3 Amigos better than most, but does she actually have any aspirations to wrestle still? She did a few FCW matches in 2011/12 but literally nothing since, and she's getting close to 30 now. That's awfully late to make a go of it in the ring, though definitely not impossible.

    Mack/Muertes was AWESOME, rolling out the coffins, trying to AX each other in the face, and that damn ice pick!! Both guys were awesome here but Mack once again especially proved his enormous star potential, and finally got the big win to cement that fact. I admit I was a little thrown because previous deathmatches have been LMS style (if I recall right?) but that didn't really impact my enjoyment at all. The energy of this was awesome. This show delivered in such a big way.

    Matanza looked AMAZING in his new gear, as others have said! I'm 100% with Cult in that people may underrate this one due to it's unique story, but I absolutely loved it. I hardly noticed the sound effects (expect at the end) so that wasn't a factor for me, and I absolutely loved the creative psychology and the phenomenal use of the Temple. The people I was watching with were literally shouting for Johnny to bust through the door and take down Matanza after he got thrown through the roof, and when he kicked out of Wrath of the Gods, holy crap. So awesome. One weird thing, I just assumed that whoever lost a Sacrifice Match would be automatically raptured up to Aztec Heaven, but seemingly not. Felt like a bit of a copout at the time, if a Sacrifice match doesn't end in a Sacrifice then it's just a normal match, no? But of course, they had other plans for Matanza...

    Legitimately surprised Mundo gave the Gauntlet back willingly. I've struggled with Mundo's face turn in general this season. I think I can buy this more than the free Drago thing, since Mundo loves himself more than anything and must have been getting a sense that he was being overtaken by something else. Also, ALTERNATE THEORY!! Is it possible the gauntlet had ALREADY inhabited him, or at least left something inside him? Cage didn't seem quite the same even after the gauntlet was gone, and if whatever was in the gauntlet already left a seed in Mundo, then that could be why it let him give it up so easily. More on that in a moment...

    Penta/Marty was the match of the night and probably the best match of the season. Marty is such a gem, I agree with Cult that it's nuts that he doesn't have offers pouring in from every indy in existence. Penta had his best showing in quite a while too, chucking a chair into Marty's face at the start was a thing of beauty and it just escalated from there. Marty bleeding buckets was an incredible visual. I can't quite rate it as high as the first Cero Miedo match but that's one of my all time favorites, and it wasn't all THAT far off either. This one was a thing of beauty, and Marty should be a major player forever and a day.

    Vamp betraying Penta could be seen a mile away but that's ok, they clearly intended the audience to know more about Vamp than Penta did, since his mysterious master has been known about for a full season now. I had faith they would come back to this, and sure enough they did! I'm all for Australian Suicide being the guy in the gimmick, his look was great and he's got the ring skills to pull his weight and more.

    Jake Strong... well, I'm still not really a fan of the guy, and probably never will be, and I really hope his title reign doesn't go on too long in season 5, but I'll give credit to LU to doing pretty much everything in their power to make me ok with it. Penta being devastated and STILL not giving up was a great touch, as Cult mentioned. I just wish they had picked up someone different for this role, there's no shortage of guys who could have pulled it off. Brody King probably would have been my pick, a So Cal guy with enormous upside, but that's neither here nor there. They've got Jake and they're making the best of him, for now at least. Nice to know gods can jump bodies, just in case they do decide to switch tactics down the line! I really hope they scrap the MITB style GOTG cash ins though, they've basically done in on the last three GOTG exchanges and I think they were better off without it.

    And yeah, HOLY SHIT that final scene! As hoped, it was amazing. Cuerno, Aerostar, and Azteca meeting over the Gauntlet... should Aerostar have known better? Perhaps he knew what would happen anyway? Always tricky, is that guy. Bringing back Black Lotus to finish her arc was beautiful, and a testament to the quality of LU storytelling. She finally offs Matanza, and it's an ending to the character that I can accept (if it is the ending, of course!! ZOMBIE MATANZA PLEASE!!). Strong brutalizing Azteca was probably the best he's looked all season, the more they lean into this inhuman god thing the easier it is to accept him. His eternal deadpan makes more sense if he's a god devoid of human emotion! And that's called accentuating the positive!

    Possessed Taya... did not see that coming! Mundo vs. Taya is gonna be a heartbreaker but holy crap, what an amazing angle if Mundo has to try to rescue his wife's soul, or else destroy her to save her from a life of possession. Holy crap, there's so much potential there. Could be an extra layer if Mundo does have a god seed inside him from the gauntlet and has to decide if he wants to let it overtake him so he can join his wife in godhood. Even if he doesn't have the seed, I could see Mundo finding a way to join the evil god side if he can't win Taya back. Enormous potential right there!

    A point about what Cult said, do we really think Dario intentionally sent Ricky to bring back a demon doll god? From what I remember the scene Dario seemed annoyed that the pictures showed up, and tried to first throw them in the garbage before they teleported back to his desk and he pushed them off on the first person he saw. Could be that he knew their god connection and didn't want to get involved directly, but my initial read was that he didn't know their significance. Could see it either way.

    And YES, the masters of evil! BIG talking point from this scene, Antonio clearly said "all the gods have taken human form". I HAVE to assume there are seven gods total, to eventually match up with the seven tribes, so who are the gods? Hexagon Dark, Jake Strong, and Wade Barrett (GREAT TO SEE HIM!!) are obvious, and now we know Taya for sure too (assuming she's one of them and not a rogue force). Matanza was another, and I assume whatever was in him will have to find another host. That's five, potentially. I don't think Vamp's a god, though obviously he's become an ally. I wonder how much Vamp actually knows though, and whether he may eventually turn on his masters. Is Agent Winter a god? I didn't think so initially but now I'm really not sure. Could Fenix have somehow got some god in him?? Is Killer Kross a secret god sent to fuck up the Rabbit Tribe and destroy the possibility for the tribes to unite?? Regardless, there may be more unknown gods out there... assuming my theory of seven gods is correct. There could be less, or even more!

    Really, REALLY hoping LU gets a proper ending, and the final match is a full show length Cibernetico style bout to decide the fate of this crazy Aztec Ragnarok they have going on. Seven tribes against seven gods... so much bloody potential there, my god!

    And the coup de grace, the resurrection of the true protagonist of Lucha Underground!

    Ok, time for my CRAZIEST THEORY YET!

    So we've thought for a while that "Antonio Cueto" may actually be Dario in disguise. This seems to have been disproved by this episode... OR HAS IT?? It never sat well with me that Antonio ordered the hit on his own son, and Dario just happened to call his dad when it happened. It could be true, but it never sat well with me. SO, what if after resurrecting Dario, Aerostar took him into the past? What if Dario in fact ordered the hit on himself, knowing Aerostar would resurrect him and that it would allow him to hide from the forces that wanted him dead by impersonating his dad right under their noses?? I know that's a bit convoluted but I feel like it's more Nolan that Shyamalan and could work as a beautiful reveal if executed right. Now I could be totally off base and Dario and Antonio really are both who they seem to be, but then as Ollie alluded to, you have the pretty big issue of how to put these two guys in the same place on a show that mostly happens in front of a live crowd. There are ways of working around that sure, but not really very good ones. On the other hand, would Dario do the things that Antonio did this season? Would he be willing to break Matanza from his human side? Would Aerostar put Dario back in charge, knowing everything that would happen in this season? I say MAYBE to both... Dario's love of his brother has proved cruel and inconsistent in the past, and with Aerostar seeing the consequences of fucking up the timeline he might know that he has no choice but to close up the loop. OR, he may know that Dario is important enough to resurrect even with the consequences of this season. What can Dario do? Is he the key to stopping the Aztec Apocalypse? He must be, right? But why... that's the question I NEED to know!

    ARGH!! Ultima Lucha IV was so amazing, and I need season 5 to be confirmed RIGHT NOW!!!
    Last edited by mizfan; 1 Week Ago at 02:46 PM.

  25. #225
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    I love that on Dario being Antonio - in fact I had the same idea on my train home! It's definitely still an option.

    One thing I meant to say on Shaul is that I really liked her work in FCW and early on in NXT. She can work well, if not incredibly, as I recall. Been a while since I saw her do anything of note, though.

    It feels somehow right that there's a Guerrero in the Temple that isn't Chavo.

  26. #226
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    I think if it were as simple as Dario and Antonio being the same guy then that would've been the reveal at the end; Dario removing the disguise to reveal he survived. Not to mention the final scene clearly shows Antonio taking the key off Dario's body and walking away. Even for LU it's hard for me to believe that that's Dario, in disguise, standing over his own lifeless body, and it clearly wasn't a mannequin or anything like that (as some of us thought early on) because then who would Aerostar have brought back to life? So no, my guess is Dario and Antonio are two different people.

    That doesn't mean Antonio is all he seems though. A more logical scenario in my mind is that Antonio is actually a double agent who orchestrated what happened with Aerostar (and possibly Dario) to bring his son back and has been undercover since. Or, like Dario before he got shot, Antonio has been a devoted member to The Order all along but the death of his son (which he would've had no choice but to order or else he'd be killed too) led to him changing sides and working with Aerostar in order to save his son. Either way those seem like plausible scenarios. It would be tricky to explain, if that were the case, why Antonio did what he did to Matanza, but I suppose you could twist it as Antonio doing what he needed to do to protect his cover and that Matanza was likely a lost cause anyway; he's still a host whether Antonio destroys his remaining humanity or not and if he doesn't, then it's likely the Order has Antonio killed and someone else unleashes Matanza anyway, with no guarantee Aerostar can pull everything else off. Maybe I'm wrong but I think we'll find out that Antonio, in his own way, has been on Dario's side all along.

    And if that's the case, you don't need this to be building to an Antonio-Dario confrontation. Frankly I don't think it should be anyway. Dario's beef isn't with his father, it's with Agent Winter and the Lord. The money confrontation is Dario confronting the man who shot him and the man who has controlled his life all these years. That's what LU is likely building to; it doesn't mean there can't be a backstage confrontation/reunion between father and son (frankly I'd bank on it, and in that setting LU can pull it off) but to me, this is less the story of Dario getting revenge on his dad than it is Dario's odyssey back to the Temple and embracing his role as LU's anti-hero against the forces of darkness. I guess we'll see when the time comes though!


  27. #227
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    My theory actually is that Dario did die and really was lying in that casket, but then after being revived Aerostar sent him back to an earlier time and he attended his own funeral as Antonio! Although you do have a good point, there's a good chance they would have included that in the reveal... unless they are saving up for a second big reveal! Hey, I think it's possible at least, and it'd be an interesting way to go IMO.

    I'm also down with the idea that Antonio is actually Antonio, but secretly still on Dario's side. To your point, Antonio could want to protect Dario but still be willing to break Matanza's soul to increase his power, maybe even with the idea of rebelling against the other gods. Then again, from what we know of Antonio he doesn't think much of Dario, considering him only the weaker son... but who knows for sure?

    I still think having both characters in the same scene too often might get to be a pain, but I agree they've GOT to meet up at some point (unless my original theory is correct!). Feels like both can't continue, so if Antonio is who he says he is, I wonder if his days might be numbered? If the gods figure out he's part of this, he'll bite the dust in no time. Man, there are a lot of great ways you can go with this!

    Confirm season 5 already, for god's sake!

  28. #228
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    I mean, the real question in my mind is that, with Aerostar constantly changing the timeline from the future, how much of what we've seen is actually going to have happened in the new timeline and will there be any serious impacts on the events of season 4 as a result? Or are we just going to accept that bringing Dario back won't have actively impacted what happened in season 4 - in other words, have we been watching the timeline where Dario is alive or dead? The chronology of the series would suggest we've watched it with dead Dario, especially as he's not featured, but with Dario being brought back...I don't know, time travel is hard as Chikara will attest!

  29. #229
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    It really isn't that difficult. LU already showed how this could work early in the season with Aerostar resurrecting Fenix; remember that he technically brought Fenix back to life in the past before then taking him to the present. The same thing could easily apply here. Aerostar resurrects Dario, Dario says his line them bam; they're off to after Ultima Lucha IV. It's also not impossible that they're already in the present. It's one year ago when Antonio closes the coffin and walks away; it doesn't say anything about what time period it is when Aerostar opens it up and resurrects him. Either way LU can easily work with this in a way that doesn't erase season four's events and continues the story. I'd guess it's the first scenario (Aerostar brings him to the present) but either one will work.

    I also think mizfan is correct in that Antonio Cueto isn't going to last long with Dario back. Like I said, the real story here isn't Dario vs. his father but Dario vs. Barrett and Winter. Even if Antonio legit ordered his son's death, Barrett is still the one responsible for involving Dario in this mess and Winter is the guy who shot him. They're the ones Dario needs to defeat to truly take back the Temple. So whether Antonio is on Dario's side or not, my guess is they'll give them a few scenes in season five and then Antonio will be off to meet Matanza, either by Dario's hand or Barrett's once they find out he betrayed them. I guess it really all depends on how quickly LU wants Dario to appear in whatever Temple they're in. Before we knew what season four would entail by thought was Dario would spend half the season recovering, then return during a huge match (like the Cueto Cup final or something) to begin building to the match for control of the Temple. Obviously it'll depend on how many episodes there are to the season, but that's what I'd like to see. The pop would be enormous!


  30. #230
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    Hey guys,
    I'm putting together the end of year voting for LOP and was hoping to give a few options for Lucha Underground in the 'Non-WWE sections' but I don't watch it so thought I'd get some opinions here.

    The categories are:
    - Wrestler of the year
    - Non-Wrestling Personality of the year
    - Singles Match of the year
    - Tag Match of the year
    - Show of the year
    - Feud of the year

    If you could pop a few options for each on this thread or in a DM that would be most appreciated.



    @Sir_Samuel

  31. #231
    Here is my thing... Antonio and Dario are so very different in the way they govern...Dario gives bribes, Antonio takes them . Dario still wants to promote his matches while having more a lust for violence than Antonio. They have a different take on the gift of the gods title and how it should be used. Antonio is just a cheaper person...I think they should be two different ppl whom the same actor can play whenever needed...

    Overall, I liked the show and thought the gods were well put together.

    Would like to know more about Vampiro's master.

    Pentegon has become really beloved and just a hell of a character...loved when after Vampiro kicked him, he jumped up and kicked Vampiro back right away, his lack of hurt and disappointment or shock goes well with the dysfunctional bad ass character he's built.

    Mac and Muertes... I think they missed somewhat an opportunity to build a streak for Mil. Though it was a happy ending to the fued, didn't think he needed to bury him, but for Lucha Underground it's either the end of Mil or a new beginning, I'm sure.

    Good show

  32. #232
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    A new beginning, I hope! He isn't the same without Catrina (who is?) but he's still awesome. I have faith they will find a way to reinvigorate him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
    I mean, the real question in my mind is that, with Aerostar constantly changing the timeline from the future, how much of what we've seen is actually going to have happened in the new timeline and will there be any serious impacts on the events of season 4 as a result? Or are we just going to accept that bringing Dario back won't have actively impacted what happened in season 4 - in other words, have we been watching the timeline where Dario is alive or dead? The chronology of the series would suggest we've watched it with dead Dario, especially as he's not featured, but with Dario being brought back...I don't know, time travel is hard as Chikara will attest!
    I definitely think nothing we've seen will have changed. Either like Cult said, Aerostar will jump Dario to the present or else like I've said Dario was around all along, either in disguise or simply lying low so he doesn't get shot again.

    I've wondered for a while whether LU's theory of time travel is fatalistic or flexible... when Aerostar changes something, does it also change the future? Or do his actions simply cause the same things to happen that would have happened anyway? I feel like there must be some way to shake fate, or else Aerostar wouldn't be trying so hard, yet it does feel like he could have prevented certain things and didn't do so. I'm sure he has some kind of vague Doctor Who rules to follow.

    Sam, gonna get you a more complete list as we talked about but throwing a few ideas out here for you off the top of my head:

    - Wrestler of the year
    Pentagon Jr
    Mil Muertes
    Dragon Azteca Jr
    The Mack
    Fenix

    - Non-Wrestling Personality of the year
    Catrina
    Antonio/Dario Cueto
    Melissa Santos

    - Singles Match of the year
    Fenix vs. Mil Muertes vs. Jeremiah Crane, Casket 6/27/18 Lucha Underground
    Mil Muertes vs. The Mack, Deathmatch 11/7/18 Lucha Underground
    Pentagon Jr vs. Marty Martinez, Cero Miedo Match, LU Championship 11/7/18 Lucha Underground

    - Tag Match of the year
    Ivelisse, The Mack, & Son of Havoc vs. Dragon Azteca Jr, Dezmond Xavier, & King Cuerno 7/25/18 Lucha Underground
    Ivelisse & XO Lishus vs. Jack Evans & Joey Ryan 8/8/18 Lucha Underground
    Fenix & Mil Muertes vs. The Mack & Dragon Azteca Jr 10/10/18 Lucha Underground

    - Show of the year
    The Hunted 9/19
    Spiders & Skeletons 10/10
    Ultima Lucha Cuatro Part 2 11/7

    - Feud of the year
    Pentagon vs. Marty Martinez
    Mil Muertes vs. The Mack
    World Wide Underground vs. The Reptile Tribe

  33. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benjamin Button View Post
    Here is my thing... Antonio and Dario are so very different in the way they govern...Dario gives bribes, Antonio takes them . Dario still wants to promote his matches while having more a lust for violence than Antonio. They have a different take on the gift of the gods title and how it should be used. Antonio is just a cheaper person...I think they should be two different ppl whom the same actor can play whenever needed...
    Sure...for a little while that can definitely work. But at the end of the day I don't see Antonio being a long term character on this show. For one it's just a lot to ask Luis Fernandez-Gil to play both Dario and Antonio for a long period of time (I'm sure he can definitely pull it off, but still). And most importantly, Antonio isn't that important I don't think. He certainly wasn't a bad character this season (as a replacement for Dario, I actually thought he did a bit better than Catrina did early in season two) but if you watch the season back it's clear LU wasn't looking to make him the "star of the show" the way they did with Dario. Dario has always been played as a massive presence, a main character; Antonio always came across as a supporting one. And supporting ones don't last long, especially when, once again, Dario's fight is with Agent Winter and Lord Barrett, the real culprits responsible for nearly taking his life. I think that eventually takes the foreground and while I do believe we'll see at least two Antonio-Dario scenes in a potential season five, I think Antonio is likely to die midseason (at latest) in order to give Dario more motivation for his fight against The Order.


    Quote Originally Posted by Benjamin Button View Post
    Mac and Muertes... I think they missed somewhat an opportunity to build a streak for Mil. Though it was a happy ending to the fued, didn't think he needed to bury him, but for Lucha Underground it's either the end of Mil or a new beginning, I'm sure.
    Mil absolutely should've lost that match. I would've agreed beforehand that his streak needed to be protected but a) LU already has another undefeated streak at Ultima Lucha going with Fenix and b) The Mack really, REALLY needed to win this feud. I know he's beloved in the Temple and all but Big Willie's biggest win in LU before this match was defeating Cage in a Falls Count Anywhere match in the first round of Dario's Unique Opportunity Tournament at Ultima Lucha Dos, Part One. Maybe you could argue All Night Long II with Johnny Mundo was as good as a win for Mack because of how good it was (and it was great), but in the end he still didn't win and lost the rematch. Having him fall to Mil here (especially after Mil demolished him in the Haunted House match) would've made him hard to take seriously as a major threat going forward. Throw in how the story was all about him conquering his fear as well and he had to win. It's a shame about Mil's streak from the sense that he and Fenix will never get to face off undefeated at an Ultima Lucha, but it had to be done.


  34. #234
    I agree that Antonio should not be there non-stop. But maybe don't kill him and bring him back once in awhile. Could be 1-2 shows a year. His character can grow and have something to offer when he comes around.

  35. #235
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    I'm with Cult, I'm all for Mack getting a hugely deserved win here. Demonstrates perhaps that Mil is lacking without Catrina. Wonder if he'll end up with a new supporting player in season 5...

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