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Thread: Brock Lesnar

  1. #41
    Super Moderator Prime Time's Avatar
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    If he is I'd say it's a restatement of the UFC/Bellator point. I don't think Lesnar is a household name for wrestling alone, if he is one at all. That'll just be because more casuals know UFC. Though the people I know who really know MMA say Bellator is a good enough standard that Lashley should get some serious tough-guy credit out of it.

    Does debuting a couple of years earlier, before the huge 2002 decline in the audience, help him too, perhaps?
    Last edited by Prime Time; 06-04-2018 at 06:11 PM.

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  2. #42
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    It helps, but Lesnar's primary claim to fame in the mainstream is his UFC stuff. He was a huge draw during a relatively high period of popularity, pretty successful as a fighter, and was a major part of UFC 100, which cements him in the UFC history books.

  3. #43
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    The really sort of sad thing is that WWE could, if they wanted to, build to a fairly notable Lashley vs Lesnar match by playing up their MMA histories. Lashley had an impressive MMA record behind him, 15-2, compared to Lesnar's (5-3-1) and could easily be presented as a threat to him as a result. But they're kind of just letting Lashley drfit. I don't really understand why they signed him when they clearly don't have a plan for what to do with the guy.

    As for Lesnar, I'm at the point where I just want someone to take the title off him right now. The show suffers so badly without a top championship around to be the focus of things. And shifting the IC title into Open Challenge territory again makes any feuds for it seem unfocussed, so it's not well suited to be a replacement.

  4. #44
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    I watched Lesnar/Punk last night... I want THAT Lesnar back so badly. I think he did two suplexes in the whole match and they were great but he also did about 100 other things and looked like the most incredible guy who ever wrestled.

  5. #45
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    I don't think he wants to do that and i honestly don't think he can. I feel like in the last two years, Brock has slowed down considerably. There was a time when he would be mr suplex city but i knew he could do so much more and he had that presence.. I watch him now and its like he's in slow motion. i think its due to his age and his desire to stay in top shape is less imo

  6. #46
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    Honestly I'd have to agree, it's not uncommon for him to seem gassed (though I know some don't agree with that) and phoning it in is obviously something both he and the WWE are comfortable with.

    Still, I miss that guy.

  7. #47
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    oh i do too i've seen flashes where he still has that explosivness but a few years ago, i was big on Brock cause i knew he'd deliver. Now you just hope for a good five mins.

  8. #48
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    All it takes is the right opponent. I do not think that Lesnar looked gassed against AJ Styles last year. He wasn't exerting as much energy and power lifting guys the weight and size of Reigns, Joe, Goldberg, and Strowman (guys 260lbs and above). Styles is 215lbs? That is a lot easier to deal with at age 40.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by mizfan View Post
    Honestly I'd have to agree, it's not uncommon for him to seem gassed (though I know some don't agree with that) and phoning it in is obviously something both he and the WWE are comfortable with.

    Still, I miss that guy.
    He was gassed in his return match against Cena in 2012 too, but it still ended up being an amazing match. I think Lesnar's sweet spot for his conditioning is about 15-20 minutes, anything after that and he might get tired. I have never seen him get gassed to such an extent that it ruined the match, but it is a thing with him that does happen from time to time.
    Last edited by Alan; 06-06-2018 at 07:04 PM.

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  11. #51
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    Maybe confusing his sandbagging on some throws for being gassed.

  12. #52
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    Or the fact that the guy sweats more than almost everyone.

  13. #53
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    But sweating doesn't mean you're out of shape, it means you're sweaty.

    Brock's in incredible shape. I never see him sucking wind like he's having any sort of trouble. He sweats. He's under hot lights and some people are just sweaty. Hell, he could be on something like Hydroxycut that makes you pour sweat all day long. One of my fittest buddies is just a sweaty dude.

    I think that claims that Brock isn't in shape or is always gassed are wrong at best and people just wanting to cut him down at worst.

  14. #54
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    I was just commenting that people may confuse sweating a lot with being out of shape, and gassed.

  15. #55
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    Sorry, I misinterpreted. My bad.

    I just find it really funny that people say that Brock Lesnar, a living mutant who does manual labour on a ranch in Saskatchewan because he enjoys it, is out of shape. Mostly, I think it's just because they don't like Brock and don't like that he has the belt and isn't around every week.

  16. #56
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    Hasn't he turned into a shade of purple a few times during matches because he was so winded? I don't keep track obviously but I could've sworn I heard that somewhere before.

    In any event I think Coach is probably correct in that people saying "Lesnar's gassed" is something to explain away how they just don't like him anymore and they just don't want to say "he has the same match almost every time", "he hasn't put anyone over" or "he won't drop the title." All of which are valid arguments I may add; I wouldn't blame Brock for it entirely because WWE is certainly pulling the strings but it's pretty clear Brock has worn out his welcome to a portion of the fan base by this point.


  17. #57
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    I’m not sure what is was for, but there was a training doc about Lesnar a few years ago about his training schedule. I think it was for his UFC run, but when he had his personal trainer at home, it showed the ridiculous training that he does and that he needs to eat everything in sight, because he loses about 10-15 pounds with every work out daily.

    The man is a literal beast.

    Here is that video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rFY...&feature=share
    Last edited by Powder; 06-08-2018 at 02:30 PM.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cult Icon View Post
    Hasn't he turned into a shade of purple a few times during matches because he was so winded? I don't keep track obviously but I could've sworn I heard that somewhere before.
    It might sound silly, but I think that's genetics. He's a pale blonde dude. I actually have a buddy who's large, pale and blonde and the running joke was always "when he turns purple, take it home." It just seemed to be that once the blood started pumping and he was working hard, his skin would turn red and then purple within a few minutes.

    It wouldn't surprise me if he was taking some Niacin, too. Gives you a great pump, but turns people, especially blonde ones, deep red.

  19. #59
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    With 'gassing out' I had his 2012 return match mostly in mind, and his sweating, and coloring. I'll take Coach's explanation on that.

    FWIW, I'm one of the few people who still likes Lesnar, and would like for him to stay. I have never bought the 'he's phoning it in!' line of argument against him.

  20. #60
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    I don't think it really matters if people thinks he's gassing out or whatever the reason for not liking him. Its been done and his performances are not going to get better, either by booking or work. He peaked a few years ago imo and now its just a decline in returns. I don't even think he's needed that much beyond dropping the title and doing a few jobs.

    I'll always enjoy Brock's return run but there comes a point when enough is enough.

  21. #61
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    The AJ Styles match proved that that he still has it, so I don't accept that he's peaked. He's just been placed with shitty opponents and other booking impediments.

  22. #62
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    I said up the page, I want the title off of Lesnar - but I definitely don't necessarily want Lesnar gone. I think WWE just need to pick his opponents more and, to be honest, have him work with a more varied cast - something they were good at doing last year with Joe, Strowman, and Styles. The most exciting matches, or at least build to matches, the guy has is with new people, people that fans want to see him against. The worst are where he has a series of matches - Triple H, Undertaker, Goldberg (although the Goldberg matches were super good fun, so whatever)

    We're now looking at, what, Lesnar vs Reigns IV at SummerSlam? And it's kind of played out. Unless they're going to dress it in a fun stipulation, I don't want to see it again. Brock vs Rollins has been good but done before.

    I think that's why I kind of want to see Lesnar vs Balor, or Lesnar vs The Miz, or something like that. Just mix it up a little bit.

  23. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    The AJ Styles match proved that that he still has it, so I don't accept that he's peaked.
    I think I know what you're saying is, though I disagree. Lesnar has certainly peaked. The difference is, even when he's at non-peak, he's still very capable of putting on really entertaining matches.

    Take Ric Flair. As far as in-ring ability goes, I think most would agree that his peak years were in the 80s. The matches with Steamboat, with Funk, etc. Does that mean his WWE run from 91'-93' didn't have some absolute classics? Hell, even as late as 95' he was having some really good matches with Savage. His retirement match against Shawn Michaels is great. I'm sure others could point to post-2000 matches that weren't bad. But you'd be insane to argue that Ric Flair's peak took place after 1990.

    And I think the same could be said about Lesnar. He is simply not capable, whether its due to age or indifference, of consistently delivering 4+ star matches with the same regularity that he was even 3-4 years ago, when his batting average was incredible. Has he fallen dramatically? I don't think he has fallen as dramatically as some argue. I think he still has the aura and ability to have a Match of the Night any time he wants to...but "peaking" isn't about how he compares to the rest of the roster, its about how he compares to his past and his future. In his past, he was even better, which means, by definition, his peak is behind him.

  24. #64
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    I think the "gassed" talk also comes from the fact that his matches tend to be very short, or if there's a multi-man he always seems to take a long stretch of match to just sit out, longer than average. That doesn't mean he's out of shape necessarily. There's no doubt he's a genetic freak so "out of shape" is relative anyway. I felt like it seemed that way at times but I'm no expert, by any means.

    My dislike of him is primarily stylistic for me. I find the suplex city stuff borderline unwatchable, which sucks because there was a time Lesnar was one of my favorite guys period.

  25. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Josh View Post
    I think I know what you're saying is, though I disagree. Lesnar has certainly peaked. The difference is, even when he's at non-peak, he's still very capable of putting on really entertaining matches.

    Take Ric Flair. As far as in-ring ability goes, I think most would agree that his peak years were in the 80s. The matches with Steamboat, with Funk, etc. Does that mean his WWE run from 91'-93' didn't have some absolute classics? Hell, even as late as 95' he was having some really good matches with Savage. His retirement match against Shawn Michaels is great. I'm sure others could point to post-2000 matches that weren't bad. But you'd be insane to argue that Ric Flair's peak took place after 1990.

    And I think the same could be said about Lesnar. He is simply not capable, whether its due to age or indifference, of consistently delivering 4+ star matches with the same regularity that he was even 3-4 years ago, when his batting average was incredible. Has he fallen dramatically? I don't think he has fallen as dramatically as some argue. I think he still has the aura and ability to have a Match of the Night any time he wants to...but "peaking" isn't about how he compares to the rest of the roster, its about how he compares to his past and his future. In his past, he was even better, which means, by definition, his peak is behind him.
    We have no way of knowing all of that because of the set of opponents he has been placed in the last 2 years. He was placed with Goldberg, who had a memorable run, but he was limited and they were never going to have 4 star matches. He had a 7 minute match with Samoa Joe because WWE decided that Roman/Braun needed to eat 40-50+ minutes of the show. He had a tremendous fatal-4-way, which immediately led them to booking Braun-Brock, which they instantly regretted, because they did not want to portray either wrestler as losing or weak, and Braun's limitations doomed it. Then there was that AJ match, followed by a useless three-way with Braun and Kane, which was as horrible as everyone expected. They wanted to show off Braun, but not have him lose, so they inserted Kane in there for the sole purpose of taking the pin, and thus telegraphing their big Rumble match to everyone.

    This was followed by 2 Roman Reigns matches booked by Michael Hayes where the idea was to keep them short and just overload them with finisher spam, and they didn't work out. I don't really see Brock being lazy or bad in any of these situations. If he starts having uninspired matches with Seth Rollins, then I'll throw in the towel. They don't know what to do with him and keep on booking him in no-win situations.

  26. #66
    Super Moderator Prime Time's Avatar
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    I guess there's no way to be sure while he's still active. To follow the Flair example, I seem to remember hearing that there were people who thought he'd peaked in the late eighties, and then he goes and has a year to remember in 1989. Similarly, while we now accept that Flair peaked in the 1980s, after his matches with Steamboat/Funk in '89 who in early 1990 would have thought it was immediately obvious that Flair had already passed his best?

    There's all sorts of things you can judge in the moment but when Flair - and, indeed, Brock - have peaked is probably something we'll only really be able to assess with the benefit of time.

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  27. #67
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    I've heard informed wrestling reviewers say that Flair's last hoorah was 1992. His absolute all-time peak was obviously 1989, which is regarded by many as the greatest wrestling year of all time. Still, Flair did do some good stuff with Savage and Hogan as late as the mid 90's, and he was always a top draw, and at times even *the* top ratings draw, even during the Attitude Era with Goldberg and Austin, as he was purposefully being buried by Bischoff.

  28. #68
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    I like that Styles match but I still don't put it at Brock's peak and I think if Brock has a match with Rollins, it will be good but not as good as their previous matches.. You can still enjoy his matches without saying he's at his best... and he's in his 40s.. if there wasn't a drop off, that would be weird and def not common with any athletes to still be at their peak.

    I also don't think he's getting that match with Rollins.

  29. #69
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    Flair even had a crop of great matches in the 00s period with WWE. A lot of it was based on who he was facing, but his Triple H and Michaels matches were great.

  30. #70
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    He single-handedly carried a broken down Hogan to a 3 star match in the 2010's.

  31. #71
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    Some of our press are picking up a story about the WWE being unable to secure Lesnar for any dates in the near future, including PPV through the rest of the summer. Interesting.

    "The worst moron is the one too stupid to realise they're a moron."

  32. #72
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    I'll laugh until I die if Lesnar pulled a '91 Lex Luger and somehow used up all his dates as champion for the year without dropping the belt.

  33. #73
    Super Moderator Prime Time's Avatar
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    I'd join in. Especially if the last one had him leave Roman in another pool of his own blood.

    "The worst moron is the one too stupid to realise they're a moron."

  34. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prime Time View Post
    Some of our press are picking up a story about the WWE being unable to secure Lesnar for any dates in the near future, including PPV through the rest of the summer. Interesting.
    UFC? Could he be going back in the USADA pool or whatever it is, so Dana can book him to defeat some other scrub? Or even he and Vince continue to work together on the Lesnar project and get Lesnar as duel UFC and WWE Champion?

    Like, I'm not naive enough to assume that Dana and Vince aren't working together right now, nor am I naive enough to fully think that UFC isn't 'booked' to some extent. I think they might do a duel champion thing.

  35. #75
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    I don't think Brock can beat Cormier (current champion in the division), or Jones (possible future champion, and Brock's big money fight they're dying to arrange).

  36. #76
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    Thing is, he doesn't have to beat them to make those fights happen.

  37. #77
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    Well, of course. He's in it for the big money, and Jones-Lesnar is a legitimate big time fight. I just meant that I don't expect him to be champion again.

  38. #78
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    Oh no. TBH, at his age and his skills, Brock could probably only beat a low end guy at this point. Someone that's just a brawler.. The top guys are pretty much levels above Brock... so I can only see one superfight and that's it. I think that's best for all involved too.. Put him in there with Stipe, Cormier or Jones and then UFC future guys aren't hurt if they somehow lose and if Brock won, he could have a few more big money fights.
    Last edited by LK3185; 06-22-2018 at 07:35 PM.

  39. #79
    Member #25 SirSam's Avatar
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    Yeah Brock would have no chance at winning, he is far, far to one dimensional to beat Stipe Miocic who as well as being a great MMA wrestler can fight standing up and is above all a great game planner. That kind of combo will easily deal with Brock. That said, they guy has the ability to beat a number of the top heavyweights because the division aside from a few men is quite one dimensional.

    Back to WWE and I don't mind this current story they are running with him IF they actually finish it in the right manner. The story is basically that Brock sees himself as above everyone and doesn't even feel the need to grace the WWE or WWE audience with his presence and no one can do anything about it. They need to find someone now who is everything that Brock isn't and have them beat Brock. Let's see, who is a wrestler that has shown up left right and center, has gone above and beyond to earn the fans love and has a history of fighting all comers as Champ?

    There is only one guy. Rollins.

    Now does the WWE have the story telling ability at the moment to actually finish the story they have set out before themselves?

  40. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirSam View Post
    There is only one guy. Rollins.
    You misspelled Reigns there, Sam.

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