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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirSam View Post
    Lumping all those injuries together is kind of missing the point.
    And yet you and everyone else here is having no problem doing that with these New Japan injuries. Lumping any of these injuries together isn't okay. And yet it's happening with one situation. Why is that?

  2. #42
    Member #25 SirSam's Avatar
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    May 2018
    Mate I already explained the difference in the next sentence.

    Basically it is the potential permanent career and lifestyle threatening nature of those other injuries v impactful but not life altering injuries like an ACL/MCL tear.


  3. #43
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    And if all those WWE injuries were the latter I might agree with you (wait, no I wouldn't because leg injuries can be life and career altering as well). The problem is that four of those WWE wrestlers I mentioned earlier suffered life altering/career threatening/career ending injuries. Tyson Kidd not only hasn't wrestled since he got injured, he almost was paralyzed and nearly died. Sting's career was ended by taking a Seth Rollins buckle bomb wrong. Daniel Bryan had to retire for two years for a long history of concussions, not to mention he had previously suffered from nerve damage. And Nikki Bella had to cut her career short following a neck injury. So even if we don't count the people with other injuries, that's still four people who suffered major neck/head injuries in WWE under a one year span. But please, tell me more New Japan is the only place going "too far."

    The truth is neither of them are because, guess what, all that shit in WWE was an accident just like it has been in New Japan. Samoa Joe used the Muscle Buster for years and was pretty safe, jut like Dragon Lee has been with the Phoenix Plex. Sting took a bump wrong, just like Honma did. I could go on and on and on. The point is that shit happens. It happens with the little things, it happens with the big things, it happens in reckless times and it happens with the safest of wrestlers. Like I pointed out earlier, Perro Aguayo Jr. didn't die from taking a high impact move; he died because he landed the wrong way and suffered whiplash (and not even on a bad spot like the head or neck). That's the point. I'm just the guy pointing out the hypocrisy of it all.

  4. #44
    I’m 1000% with Cult Icon on this. Everyone needs to call a spade a spade. You can’t ridicule and call out one promotion and not others. You can’t ridicule a promotion for a move that injures someone because of a freak accident while not ridiculing them because a move doesn’t injury someone. Naito and Jericho had a DDT/Tombstone spot, can’t remember what it was, on a table that didn’t break. That is a way more dangerous spot compared to the spot that injured Honma. Just cause it didn’t injure someone doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be ridiculed and called out. Freak injuries and worse happen. Are we going to say Rey shouldn’t dropkick someone in the back to set up his 619 because of what happened? If it is anyone’s fault the blame should be put on the owners. Moves that can be classed as dangerous should have to get approval first. Wrestlers wouldnt do a move they are uncomfortable with. I’m sure they have plenty of input on what they want to do in their matches. Vince himself has clearly made an effort to tone down on the moves that could be looked at as dangerous. Other owners haven’t. Sure wrestlers may want to do a crazy spot and have free reign to do so aka Cody/Kenny and in those instances that should be called out. But it’s not squarely on them. That’s the owners letting them do what they want or giving a dangerous spot the approval. If they want to do that move as wrestlers good for them. Doesn’t mean I won’t cringe or not call it stupid and dangerous just cause it doesn’t cause an injury. If people want it to be safer it need to start at the top.

    In regards to Sam above, all injuries can be life altering or career ending though. Knee injuries and back injuries can end a career. Sid Vicious had many neck injuries and had to step away and just cause you could say his career was on the downswing his leg break really did end his career. My right knee is always in pain from my ACL tear. Constantly bothers me and alters my life daily. So I’m sure these professionals with knee injuries and neck injuries who do this daily would be bothered in real life. Just cause they can get up and walk around doesn’t mean their lifestyle doesn’t change or their life isn’t altered.
    Last edited by Heisenberg; 07-10-2018 at 01:10 AM.

  5. #45
    Super Moderator Team Farrell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cult Icon View Post
    It's one thing if all three of these situations where like the Shibata one, where there was a deliberate attempt to do something with no regard for your safety. Two of these three were not it and were without question horrible accidents; not so different from that 2015-16 era of WWE where Cena, Sting, Seth Rollins, Orton, Neville, Cesaro, Luke Harper, Tyson Kidd (who by the way still hasn't wrestled since then), Nikki Bella and Daniel Bryan himself were all forced to miss long periods of action/retire from injuries they suffered. That's ten major injuries in a year. TEN! Yet that was just unfortunate, but this stuff with New Japan is a problem?
    Okay, this is three major injuries that we know about. Ten guys were in on IR in a short span in WWE by and large because they can afford it financially and WWE's Wellness Policy isn't about to let guys wrestle with major injuries. How many guys in NJPW right now would be on the shelf in WWE because they wouldn't let them wrestle through what they're wrestling through? In WWE, Tanahashi would have been on the shelf last year with his torn biceps. Half of these guys wrapped head to toe in KT tape are probably working through something that would put them on the shelf in WWE. Conversely, depending on the grade of the tear, Harper probably would have braced that knee and kept right on going outside WWE (and I've been saying for a long time he needs to tone it the fuck down and there's no reason for a 7 foot monster to be doing some of the shit he does), Cesaro probably would have pushed through that shoulder injury. And, I think that the increase in shoulder injuries we've seen in WWE in recent years has less to do with the style of wrestling and more to do with the style of weight training that a lot of them are in to these days.

    To answer your second question, no I don't see any value in New Japan toning it down because I don't think there's anything needed to tone down aside from maybe Will Ospreay and Hiromu. Otherwise I don't see any real difference in what guys like Omega, Okada and so forth are doing compared to other places; the only reason we're talking about them as opposed to wXw, CMLL, the British promotions, LU and what not is because it seems most people are incapable of following anything other than New Japan or WWE and are oblivious that people there are going just as hard.
    No, it has nothing to do with anyone being "incapable" of anything. Though, I'm sorry that my limited free time doesn't allow me to watch every indy on the planet. I don't think this has anything to do with the "New Japan style", it just so happens to be taking place in this thread. I think that the problem is the overall Junior Heavyweight style that seems obsessed with one upsmanship. I hated that running powerbomb spot with Cody and I'm not a huge ban of Kenny's reverse rana, but otherwise in NJPW's heavyweight division, I don't see a lot of guys getting dropped on their heads. Guys are bumping one another flat. 18 years ago, Kenny would be planting guys on their domes every night with the One Wing Angel, but instead he rotates them onto their back. Naito makes a point of pulling guys out as far as he can to bump them flat on his rope hung neckbreaker.

    The heavyweight style in NJPW isn't a problem. It's the junior style everywhere. It's guys like Ospreay knowing that many of the same fans watching NJPW this week watched him in England last week and feeling that he has to top whatever spot he did there to "give 110%". It's just like Angelico taking two story dives. It's that constant game of catch up that the Juniors seem to be playing with one another to see who can do the more dangerous head bump or slam from the apron to the floor. It went from acrobatics and athletics to video game wrestling and I hate it. Look at the Bucks, despite all the things that people shit on them for, the majority of their offense is safe for both them and the guys taking it. I'll work with the Bucks seven days a week.

    And you know what; I don't begrudge anyone for it. I would obviously love to see these guys live long lives and stay safe but if Angelico wants to leap off a roof, Dante Fox and Killshot want to go through all sorts of glass, Cody wants to go through a table via a powerbomb, Mick Foley wants to fall off a cage or someone wants to take a chop from Walter, that's their decision and I (and no one else here) is in any position to tell these guys how to work. In fact I admire guys like that who are willing to go that extra mile to entertain the fans, especially since we have recently been stuck in an era when many wrestlers weren't willing to do that (and many still aren't).
    THIS is why we're never going to agree on this. Because as much as I like and respect you and your opinions, I cannot get on board with this. Some guys need to have a governor put on them. Mick Foley needed a governor put on him. If not just for his own safety, than for the safety of the next generation who's going to have to put their bodies through even more for the same reaction. At some point we're going to hit the physical limit -- and perhaps we have with the "four high caliber matches" in less than a day.

    I cringe when I see guys take these bumps, and it's not fun for me to watch. Shit, I was teaching suplexes last night when one of my trainees dropped me high on my shoulders and neck and I'll be at the chiro today, but I also know that the "bump card" for those types of bumps is far smaller than the one for proper flat back bumps. The bump card is real. I can appreciate Cody wanting to "go the extra mile" just like I did Mick Foley, but I don't need the state that Mick Foley is in today on my conscience.

    I think that hardcore wrestling has gone too far, but it's a pointless conversation to have. I know this because I've had it with those guys. I think that chopping guys to death is fucking stupid because it's the law of diminishing returns -- chops get reactions because they're "real" and make a sound, after a few the people are numb to it and it doesn't have the same impact until you take it to the extreme and the guy's chest is fucking bleeding. That's a conversation that should probably happen. But the conversation right now is that the Junior Heavyweight style is out of control. The UK promotions can't do a ton to stem it because they're going through such a boom that they need the boys more than the boys need them. ROH seems to leash the guys somewhat and the Juniors focus more on acrobatics than out of control bumps and moves. But NJPW is the place to make that change. They are the place to tell these guys that dropping dudes on their heads or giving spanish flys from the apron aren't going to happen there anymore. The top companies are the places that need to implement these changes because they're the ones that can afford to.

    I've already said that I think WWE's style is too safe. But they make changes when it's necessary. Seth Rollins isn't hitting buckle bombs every week anymore. Some injuries are freak accidents that you can't do anything about. No changes are ever going to have prevented Neville from breaking his ankle on a baseball slide. You can't make the Muscle Buster any safer than the version that Joe does these days, it's essentially a suplex but even then he doesn't do it as much as he used to. You can make a sunset bomb marginally safer for the guy giving it while making it look better at the same time and I have no idea why everyone chooses to do the version that Seth got hurt on these days, my guess is that it's a rough bump for the guy taking it. But you can tell guys not to be doing moves where the proper landing puts you high on your shoulders and neck.

    I think that the junior style in New Japan, and elsewhere, has gone too far. I don't want to see us go back to the days of an Irish whip as a high spot. I love going out and having athletic, fast paced matches, and every move requires a certain amount of precision. But if you drop me on my head or neck, especially if that's where the bump is supposed to land like the Phoenix Plex, you're taking a soccer kick to the teeth as soon as I get up.

  6. #46
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    May 2018
    I wasn't gonna comment on this whole debate but figured I'd throw my 2 cents.. I'm mostly with Cult in some aspects, I feel like wrestlers should be able to accept the risks from almost any move and that also WWE is not really any better with injuries (however i think that's because of the tremendous travel wear and tear.. WWE wrestlers are expected to wrestle 200 plus matches a year.. NJPW is creeping up to 100 and most of them are tags..) Accidents do happen all the time in wrestling...

    That said, I do think some styles are going a bit far and where is the breaking point? You can still do fast paced, crowd pleasing stuff, without the violent head drops and headbutts...and i'm not even saying never do something dangerous... But why not save those spots? Granted the Phoenix Plex is something Dragon Lee always does but if it has such low margin of error, why do it? It doesn't finish matches..

    To me, its just like wrestling pulling back the ring, exposing the boards... There has to be a line in wrestling that you don't keep making new ones... because it lessens the effect of perfectly good work imo.

    At this point, someone might as well bring back the burning hammer head drop.

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