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  1. #1
    Super Moderator Prime Time's Avatar
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    G1 Special in San Francisco

    From the Cow Palace on the 7th of July.

    Card currently announced: title rematch between Bucks and Sanada and EVIL, Omega vs Cody for the IWGP title, Jay White defends against Juice Robinson, and a tag match between Okada/Ospreay vs Naito/Bushi.

    "The worst moron is the one too stupid to realise they're a moron."

  2. #2
    Puerto Rican dude living in Japan Degenerate's Avatar
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    Solid card so far for that event.

    I don't know if there will be any sort of title change at the show, but that probably doesn't matter. If one of them had a chance it would be the North American title - I could see Juice get that title on him for a bit.

  3. #3
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    That's very interesting. I thought Jericho would be defending the Intercontinental Title, but if he does, who would it be against? Obviously not against EVIL or Naito, since they are already booked.

  4. #4
    As it should be. Macho Mourn's Avatar
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    I wonder what Hiromu's doing.

    “Stoop to your own level. Your nature. Trust yourself. And most importantly... You have to learn what laws are really laws and not… Oppression."

  5. #5
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    Hopefully trying to kill Dragon Lee again. Never not fun.

    I think Jericho will be on this, but I think they're waiting for the right moment to announce him.

  6. #6
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    Vs Ibushi would be cool.

  7. #7
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    Jericho has hinted repeatedly that he would not work any shows in the US that weren't for WWE and I'm pretty sure if he was booked on this New Japan would've wanted it out last night with the rest of the matches. I don't see him on the show. I do see Dragon Lee either facing Hiromu or Desperado (the latter being in a mask match, which has been teased) and I expect Mysterio will be there to face Liger seeing as Ospreay is unavailable. But no Jericho.


  8. #8
    Puerto Rican dude living in Japan Degenerate's Avatar
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    This is an interesting video that got published today:



    Take it with a grain of salt, since Jericho is really good at playing his cards close to the chest. He's repeatedly said that he hasn't wanted to do anything in the U.S. outside of the WWE, and I'm kind of inclined to believe him.

  9. #9
    The Brain
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    Yeah, I don't see it happening. Jericho does come off a bit dickish in the video, in my opinion, but I also respect his position.

    Mysterio/Liger would be cool, but now that I've thought of it I kind of really want to see Mysterio vs. Dragon Lee at some point.

  10. #10
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    Ticket sales aren't moving at a great rate post match announcements apparently.

  11. #11
    The Brain
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    I really think they are being hurt by being close in time to All In. It's basically the same fanbase, and it's a traveling crowd, so they kind of had to make a choice of who to go with. All In just had more hype on this one. I hope they still get over the hump though.

  12. #12
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    Also booking Cody vs. Kenny 2... i think they're draws for that being the elite but its still the second match... I could see that not getting people excited.

  13. #13
    As it should be. Macho Mourn's Avatar
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    I expected something else being second from the top. As it sits, while Omega's "homecoming" (he's Canadian, but, whatever) is gonna be special, There is nothing on this card, as it sits, that stands out. Naito/Okada in the same ring. But, neither with a title and having no direction. The US title match will be fun, but White's a dud. I know few people in America that care for his character, no matter how "smooth" he is in the ring.

    This whole thing has been handled like a second tier show. The thing is, it is.

    They are running Florida, aren't they? This month. Way too many things going on.

    While we get a one match card, Ishii/Suzuki are fighting in the UK.

    “Stoop to your own level. Your nature. Trust yourself. And most importantly... You have to learn what laws are really laws and not… Oppression."

  14. #14
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    It's also been said that Cow palace, San fran is hard place to draw. WWE hasn't been there in years.

    The show will do fine but i'm more just thinking that these cards aren't really that eye popping like they should be if you want a foothold in America... Then again, its hard, cause the way New Japan is booked, you're not gonna get a super show a few days before the G1.

    I don't even mind, New Japan needs to keep growing in Japan and not focus so much over here.. But when they do come here, they are open to criticism.

  15. #15
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    If they're working Florida, it's not on the schedule and Omega/Cody is only second from the top because the Bucks are the Bucks.

  16. #16
    Puerto Rican dude living in Japan Degenerate's Avatar
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    I posted the finalized card for this show in the general New Japan thread, completely forgetting there's a thread dedicated to this show, so I'll just repost here for discussion:

    - Kenny Omega vs. Cody (IWGP Heavyweight Championship)
    - Jay White vs. Juice Robinson (IWGP U.S. Championship)
    - Hiromu Takahashi vs. Dragon Lee (IWGP Jr. Heavyweight Championship)
    - Will Ospreay and Kazuchika Okada vs. BUSHI & Tetsuya Naito
    - The Young Bucks vs. SANADA and EVIL (IWGP Heavyweight Tag Team Championship)
    - Hirooki Goto vs. Jeff Cobb (NEVER Openweight Championship Match)
    - KUSHIDA and Hiroshi Tanahashi vs. Marty Scurll and Hangman Page
    - Toru Yano and Tomohiro Ishii vs. Zack Sabre Jr. and Minoru Suzuki
    - Roppongi3K, Rocky Romero, Gedo and YOSHI-HASHI vs. GoD, Chase Owens, Yujiro Takahashi and King Haku

  17. #17
    Super Moderator Prime Time's Avatar
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    If you live within a couple of hours travelling and you don't go to see Haku are you even a wrestling fan?!

    "The worst moron is the one too stupid to realise they're a moron."

  18. #18
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    No and that looks like one HELL of a card!

  19. #19
    As it should be. Macho Mourn's Avatar
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    Yes. Cuz you could be poor, like me...

    “Stoop to your own level. Your nature. Trust yourself. And most importantly... You have to learn what laws are really laws and not… Oppression."

  20. #20
    Super Moderator Prime Time's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prime Time View Post
    are you even a wrestling fan?!
    I thought my use of this bit was enough to show it wasn't meant to be taken completely literally

    "The worst moron is the one too stupid to realise they're a moron."

  21. #21
    The Brain
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    Pete, bullying impoverished wrestling fans, so shameful...

    I'd actually love it if Cobb won the NEVER title, I think he'd be a great fit. If they really want American(ish) champs, he's a much better choice than Elgin.

  22. #22
    As it should be. Macho Mourn's Avatar
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    Getting close guys. I have a sinking feeling the BC will be even more "fine" after the show. What be you guys?

    “Stoop to your own level. Your nature. Trust yourself. And most importantly... You have to learn what laws are really laws and not… Oppression."

  23. #23
    So, is there a reason I can't watch this even though I have a subscription to NJPW World?

    Nevermind, did a search on it.
    Last edited by ZeroTolerance; 07-07-2018 at 08:41 PM.

  24. #24
    As it should be. Macho Mourn's Avatar
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    Bullet Club is fine.

    “Stoop to your own level. Your nature. Trust yourself. And most importantly... You have to learn what laws are really laws and not… Oppression."

  25. #25
    Please let it be Ibushi pulling the strings.

  26. #26
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    Word going around that Hiromu Takahashi per Dave Meltzer collapsed backstage and was taken to a hospital. NJPW people believe he broke his neck.

  27. #27
    Yep. Not surprising after that move. Looked frightening

  28. #28
    As it should be. Macho Mourn's Avatar
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    Fucking gutted.

    “Stoop to your own level. Your nature. Trust yourself. And most importantly... You have to learn what laws are really laws and not… Oppression."

  29. #29
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    Fingers crossed he's OK. I do enjoy Lee and Takahashi trying to kill each other, but don't want them to actually try and kill each other, like.

  30. #30
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    No kidding. Looked sick watching.

  31. #31
    The Brain
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    I know there's been a lot of argument sprung out of this about working a safe style, some saying injuries are inevitable, some saying New Japan's style has become unreasonably dangerous, some saying WWE's style is more damaging (which may be true for different reasons but is kind of missing the point). Count me in with those who think the modern "Strong Style" has gone too far. Shibata last year, and now this? These are top guys who are getting really terrible injuries, and those are only the most prominent two, to say nothing of someone like Honma, or guys like Ishii who seem to be swatched in kinesio tape constantly. People have made a great point that New Japan is good at doing slow burn storytelling and incorporating character moments, so why not let that be the main draw instead of pushing physically past the point of reasonable danger?

  32. #32
    Super Moderator Team Farrell's Avatar
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    I don't know if you can argue that the style hasn't gone too far, can you?

    Hit hard in safe places, and bump guys on their backs. How hard is that to grasp?

    Takahashi might have a broken neck off of a move that's fucking dangerous at the best of times (even the best bumps on it are super high on the back or on the neck). He beat Will Ospreay, who was taking time off at the time to heal up a potential neck injury from an unnecessary, stupid bump with Scurll.

    It's an excellent observation that guys like Ishii are always taped up. Always.

    The main event had a running powerbomb over the the top through a table that Cody bounded off of! That itself could have been a broken neck, and did it honestly add anything more to the match than just going back and forth on the outside ending with powerbombing Cody safely and flat through the table and not having to launch him and hope?

    Guys are doing stuff that isn't necessary because they're chasing the reaction, but you can get that reaction more safely without risking hurting yourself or (literally) killing yourself. It's the definition of Jim Cornette's "video game wrestling".

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting taking it as far as I'm sure Corny would like, but I was doing running powerbombs over the top to the floor in SmackDown 2 on Playstation almost 20 years ago, god knows I didn't want to see guys doing it in real life!

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by mizfan View Post
    I know there's been a lot of argument sprung out of this about working a safe style, some saying injuries are inevitable, some saying New Japan's style has become unreasonably dangerous, some saying WWE's style is more damaging (which may be true for different reasons but is kind of missing the point). Count me in with those who think the modern "Strong Style" has gone too far. Shibata last year, and now this? These are top guys who are getting really terrible injuries, and those are only the most prominent two, to say nothing of someone like Honma, or guys like Ishii who seem to be swatched in kinesio tape constantly. People have made a great point that New Japan is good at doing slow burn storytelling and incorporating character moments, so why not let that be the main draw instead of pushing physically past the point of reasonable danger?
    This is bullshit mizfan. Shibata last year got injured because Shibata was a fucking idiot (as much as I love him) who insisted on doing that spot despite how dangerous it was. Not a single other wrestler has done that type of headbutt since, at least that I saw. Meanwhile Dragon Lee has done the spot he did this past Saturday night hundreds of times and has done it to Hiromu countless of times, with only Rey Horus (El Dragon Azteca Jr.) getting injured by the move previously (and that was a minor injury that Horus missed no time on). And bringing up Honma? Come on. The guy got hurt on the same move Randy Orton does every single match. A freak accident. All of these things were, except for the Shibata one (and even then I'm pretty sure he wasn't trying to give himself a hematoma).

    I get so annoyed when this sort of shit comes up about either WWE or New Japan. Accidents happen. Unfortunately sometimes your hands slip when you got for a Phoenix Plex, you land on the wrong spot of your back taking a Muscle Buster, your head goes too far taking a DDT or you get thrown too hard into a turnbuckle/barricade for a Buckle Bomb. And some times it even isn't that; Perro Aguayo Jr. is dead not because he took a move on his neck or head but because he fell too fast the wrong way. It's awful, it 100% sucks but it's wrestling; things happen when you do things 100% right sometimes and there's just nothing you can do. To cherry pick these examples (two of which were freak occurrences) and say New Japan has pushed it too far when Walter is out there chopping people's chests into oblivion, everyone in wrestling is doing apron bumps, Dante Fox is falling through glass from fifteen feat in the air and Cavernario is doing splashes off the top rope and to the floor (and doing significant damage to his knees) is bullshit, plain and simple.


  34. #34
    Super Moderator Team Farrell's Avatar
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    But it's not bullshit, Cult.

    I, for one, think that WWE's style is a little too safe. And maybe saying that NJPW has gone too far isn't safe, but that general Junior Heavyweight style has gone too far.

    Dragon Lee shouldn't be using that move, period. It's unnecessarily dangerous. This isn't like when a few people got hurt taking the Styles Clash a few years ago. This is a move that at the best of times lands you really, really high. The margin for error is zero. Guys falling through glass, or doing damage to their knees from big jumps is another conversation that we can have (I think glass in wrestling is bullshit every time, and it's up to him if he wants to keep fucking his knees), but there's little to no way to protect yourself off of the Phoenix Plex.

    I don't blame Dragon Lee for any of this. I blame the style that's created this need to one-up each other all the time. It's hit a peak and it has to slow down. Just like in the 90s when the Japanese style was dropping guys on their domes every match and those concussing strikes that we see out of Suzuki every match. That style is a big part of the reason Misawa is dead.

    I don't want to see guys like Takahashi dead or in wheelchairs in their 40s because of this style of wrestling.

    In Walter's case, chopping guys to hell is shitty, but it isn't going to break anyone's neck. There is some compelling evidence that those chops do damage to the heart, so maybe it's a conversation that needs to be had down the road, but right now at this moment Gedo needs to sit these Jr's down and tell them to reign it the fuck in.

    I cannot watch guys taking those bumps. It makes me sick to see, it truly does. If it doesn't bother you, it is what it is, but it bugs me a lot. For a long time I wouldn't give NJPW a chance because I felt it was too spot heavy. I've gotten really into it in the past year or so, but knowing what these Jr's are putting themselves through makes me want to tune out.

  35. #35
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    Accidents will always happen, Cult, but I'm with Coach on this one. New Japan guys are taking too many chances for my liking. It's up to them if they want to continue but the comparison to late 90s All Japan/early 00s NOAH style is apt in my book, it's a house style that's wrecking bodies and putting guys at elevated risk.

    And yeah, I think bringing up Honma is justified too. Misawa died taking a simple back suplex. It's not always about the move that causes the injury, it's the wear and tear from working a damaging style.

    I'm not saying New Japan has to change their style if they don't want to, I'm just saying it's less fun for me when I'm worried who is my next favorite that will end up in a hospital bed. I know that can happen in other styles as well, it just seems like it's becoming more common in New Japan.

  36. #36
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    Fucking A. It's been three guys! THREE! It be one thing if people were dropping like flies but it's been only three. One of them was indeed because of his own stupidity. But I will continue to call bullshit on the other two. Dragon Lee, as I pointed out, has been doing this move (including onto Hiromu) for years, well before New Japan started upping the ante as people say (in fact, I recall Lee doing the move to Hiromu nearly two years before Omega and Okada "changed the game" at Wrestle Kingdom 11). Only Rey Horus had previously been hurt (and again, it was a minor injury that he missed no time with). Meanwhile Honma took the same move Randy Orton delivers to guys all the time. Am I supposed to believe those guys in WWE taking it don't have wear and tear either, especially since most of the roster these days are former indie guys? There's just as much reason to believe Honma's injury was because Jado dropped his head down too far as there is wear and tear causing it. Both are unfortunate yes but both are accidents. I don't recall us talking this much about accidents when WWE was having wrestlers drop left and right during 2015-early 2016 that caused a chunk of the roster to miss several months or more.

    The thing that does bother me the most mizfan, especially from your stance, is that you are cherry picking. I know you are big fans of Walter and Cavernario but it's grossly unfair to sit here and criticize New Japan while ignoring how stiff Walter is (especially with the information Coach provided) or how Cavernario is more than likely going to damage his knees beyond repair by the time he's 30. Hell neither you or I said a word when Angelico decided to flat back after jumping some twenty feet through the air to hit some of the dives he did in LU, not to mention all the other crazy stuff they do. We cannot condemn one thing and then just blindly accept the rest or, as Coach seemed to indicate, put it aside for another time (you know, the exact same reason people are complaining about this stuff now when it could've been discussed years ago).


  37. #37
    The Brain
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    I honestly hadn't heard the thing about stiff chops before, so that's something I'll probably have to look into, though I admit I hate even thinking of the possibility. No surprise that sometimes being a wrestling fan means struggling with your conscience. I'll have to think on Cavernario as well, I tend to assume that due to the way lucha is worked guys are protecting themselves a lot more, but they're still human after all.

    I think people are zeroing in on this for a few reasons. One reason is, I actually agree, that New Japan is in the spotlight so people (maybe including me) are cherry picking. But I think it does deserve consideration at least. You say it's only three guys, but those three injuries were incredibly serious, and they happened in a span of about 15 months. It's just really hard for me to buy that someone like Honma wasn't way more susceptible to head and neck injury after using a style that was mostly headbutts. And I do look at guys like Ishii and Ospreay and worry that they're just hanging on by a thread, health-wise.

    Let's level set... do you think there's any value in trying to tone down New Japan style a little?

  38. #38
    Member #25 SirSam's Avatar
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    I don't have much to add except that I cringe every time I see people taking really high back bumps or even worse neck bumps. To me it just seems to be playing with fire, I can absolutely see the comparisons to Shibata's headbutts too. Wrestling is risky and even the simplest moves can cause injuries, there is no getting around that however there are some moves that are just far riskier than others and probably could be shelved for less risky moves and overall it wouldn't effect things all that much.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by mizfan View Post
    I think people are zeroing in on this for a few reasons. One reason is, I actually agree, that New Japan is in the spotlight so people (maybe including me) are cherry picking. But I think it does deserve consideration at least. You say it's only three guys, but those three injuries were incredibly serious, and they happened in a span of about 15 months. It's just really hard for me to buy that someone like Honma wasn't way more susceptible to head and neck injury after using a style that was mostly headbutts. And I do look at guys like Ishii and Ospreay and worry that they're just hanging on by a thread, health-wise.

    Let's level set... do you think there's any value in trying to tone down New Japan style a little?
    What you're doing is immensely unfair. You're taking three injuries that did admittedly happen in a years span but you're overlooking the circumstances behind them and just saying it proves New Japan is going too far. The reality is only one of those injuries was going too far; the Shibata moment. The others were a case of a guy messing up a move he's hit safely at a consistent rate (following a day long span where he wrestled four high caliber matches mind you) and a dude suffering an unfortunate injury on a move that is used every week in WWE on guys with as much (if not more) wear and tear than Honma had. By your logic mizfan Daniel Bryan should've had the same thing happen to Honma back when he was taking that move from Randy Orton during his infamous push, a push where he was still suffering concussions and developing a severe nerve problem that kept him out nearly a year. It's one thing if all three of these situations where like the Shibata one, where there was a deliberate attempt to do something with no regard for your safety. Two of these three were not it and were without question horrible accidents; not so different from that 2015-16 era of WWE where Cena, Sting, Seth Rollins, Orton, Neville, Cesaro, Luke Harper, Tyson Kidd (who by the way still hasn't wrestled since then), Nikki Bella and Daniel Bryan himself were all forced to miss long periods of action/retire from injuries they suffered. That's ten major injuries in a year. TEN! Yet that was just unfortunate, but this stuff with New Japan is a problem?

    To answer your second question, no I don't see any value in New Japan toning it down because I don't think there's anything needed to tone down aside from maybe Will Ospreay and Hiromu. Otherwise I don't see any real difference in what guys like Omega, Okada and so forth are doing compared to other places; the only reason we're talking about them as opposed to wXw, CMLL, the British promotions, LU and what not is because it seems most people are incapable of following anything other than New Japan or WWE and are oblivious that people there are going just as hard. And you know what; I don't begrudge anyone for it. I would obviously love to see these guys live long lives and stay safe but if Angelico wants to leap off a roof, Dante Fox and Killshot want to go through all sorts of glass, Cody wants to go through a table via a powerbomb, Mick Foley wants to fall off a cage or someone wants to take a chop from Walter, that's their decision and I (and no one else here) is in any position to tell these guys how to work. In fact I admire guys like that who are willing to go that extra mile to entertain the fans, especially since we have recently been stuck in an era when many wrestlers weren't willing to do that (and many still aren't).


  40. #40
    Member #25 SirSam's Avatar
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    Lumping all those injuries together is kind of missing the point. Rollins for instance was a knee injury, painful but not life altering. Neck and head stuff is a whole different world of problems (as you pointed out with Tyson Kidd). I am not vehemently against people taking calculated risks, hell wrestling is built on that equation. I just hate seeing people being making reckless choices in any promotion, particularly with the neck and head.

    Yeah, I don't watch other promotions because quite frankly I barely have time for the two I do keep track of but I'd say the same thing about them if I did watch them.

    Also I'm not advocating for a hard line in the sand either, I just hate seeing people potentially mess up their career for a move that could have been replaced with something safer and have relatively the same impact.

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