View Poll Results: Who is better?

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  • Michael Jordan

    10 76.92%
  • LeBron James

    3 23.08%
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  1. #1
    Super Moderator Prime Time's Avatar
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    LeBron or Jordan?

    Seeing this question raised a lot lately so here's the straight choice between them: who's better? LeBron James or Michael Jordan?

    "The worst moron is the one too stupid to realise they're a moron."

  2. #2
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    It's not even close. Lebron 3-6 in the NBA Finals. Michael Jordan 6-0. Nuff said. The truest sign of greatness is what it inspires in those around it. Jordan inspired teams to elevate to that level, while players seem to run from playing with Lebron, if he doesn't run first.


    Lebron is a great player, but he is nowhere near the level Jordan is on.
    Last edited by Kleckamania; 06-11-2018 at 04:25 PM.


  3. #3
    Senior Member LWO4Life's Avatar
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    I'll say this, I've heard some people say LeBron would go 6-0 with Jordan's squad too in the 90's, which I think is true. Actually I think LeBron would go 8-0, because he wouldn't retire in the middle of it all.

    With that said, If Jordan was on the Miami Heat those 4 years, they go 4-0 in the NBA Finals. LeBron's loses in Miami to me are more damning to his legacy than anything else. He has a great legacy for his one 2016 title, but those loses in Miami stand out like a sour thumb. I do think LeBron today helps Miami win those 2 other titles, but you can only judge what actually happened and what actually happened was LeBron in his prime lost when he had the most talented team twice.

  4. #4
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    ^This above video is the best argument i've seen why Jordan is still better.

    I grew up with Jordan and he's the best i've ever seen. He was the most ferocious competitive player i've ever seen. He never quit and left for few seasons to play baseball in his prime so it could be argued that he would have won 8 championships

    Not that Lebron is that far behind and if Lebron somehow beat the vastly superior Warriors this season, Then i wouldn't even argue too much with people who think Lebron is better.
    Last edited by LK3185; 06-11-2018 at 06:12 PM.

  5. #5
    Cero Miedo Mystic's Avatar
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    For Christ's sake.

    Except for clicks and ratings, this was never a legit conversation.

    Please let's stop this.

    Please.

    Next up we discuss who had a greater impact on pro wrestling: Hulk Hogan or Roman Reigns.

  6. #6
    It's Jordan, but it's not as intergalactic as some seem to think it is. It's not Hogan vs. Reigns. Hogan vs. Austin is a better, though still not perfect, comparison. Yeah, it's Jordan. But LeBron is something truly special.

  7. #7
    Super Moderator Prime Time's Avatar
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    Plus, I don't really watch a lot of basketball. But I've always assumed that MJ wouldn't be surpassed in my lifetime, from what I've heard about it from people who do know shit. But then you see people talking about it like it's already happened.

    So I come from a position of relative ignorance on this, which also explains why I haven't voted myself. But I actually want to convass opinion on the question just to see how widespread it is.

    Someone has voted for LeBron, though they haven't made themselves known. It's currently 6-1 so a fairly big lead early on.

    "The worst moron is the one too stupid to realise they're a moron."

  8. #8
    Senior Member LWO4Life's Avatar
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    Make that 2. This is where I think LeBron wins the argument, it's not a complete argument, but it's an argument.

    LeBron is bigger, faster, stronger, and more dominate than Jordan can ever wish to have been. Jordan was listed at 6'6", but was actually measured at 6'4" without shoes, and weighed anywhere from 195 to 215 in his career. (Later Jordan bulked up and was much stronger. The 6'4" measurement was for the Olympics and he was 29, so he was past growing age. Jordan's real height here.) LeBron at 18 was already measured at 6'7" and weighs in at 250 pounds! He's also way faster than Jordan was running down the court and no one can stop him. LeBron's stats are also better than Jordan in terms of being a better all-around player, and one can argue that LeBron is the better player. Though Jordan scored more than LeBron, LeBron always had more blocks, rebounds, assist, a better shooting%, better 3-point%, WAY more triple-doubles and went to the NBA Finals with weaker teams. You can also argue the East was way weaker now than then, which I would, but that's besides the point. If you just look at numbers, and you were to take LeBron and put him into the 1990's, you would see the greatest player ever because no one could stop him, not even Jordan one on one. The evolution of basketball would be that LeBron and whatever team he was on back then would stomp a mud hole in the Bulls.
    Last edited by LWO4Life; 06-12-2018 at 12:50 PM.

  9. #9
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    I don't have much to chime in on the actual ins and outs of the debate but the debate is one that clearly crosses sports and a lot of the time it depends how you look at it. From a purely physical and athletic standpoint, you are always gonna have to favour the new guy. How many track and field records from the 80s and 90s stand today? Athletes get stronger and better with each generation. There is no doubt about that. They learn more about how to train more efficiently, what to put in their bodies etc. Based on what L-Dub has said above, it looks clearly like LeBron. The question is do you take that at face value and accept it? It's about how you really frame the question. I mean you can't debate that Usain Bolt is the fastest sprinter ever. You could debate whether he is the greatest though. Do you look purely at the speed or do you look at the other factors. The time they were in, who they did it against, the psychological. It's why debates like this are fascinating. What I love about them is most people make a decision and then choose their justifications to fit that rather than the other way around (I am not different). Where Mike clearly wins out is that he was the bigger star. I mean that alone is huge and is something a lot of people will put stock in when naming the greatest.

    Anyway, as you were, I am off to make one of these elsewhere so I can preach to everyone why Maradona is better than today's big two while praying on the inside that Portugal and Argentina fail in Russia (particularly Portugal) so I don't have to adjust my main piece of evidence.

  10. #10
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    If the Bulls hadn't decided they didn't want the greatest player of all-time anymore, Jordan would have won a couple more championships in Chicago. Was he worn down in Washington? Sure, but I think part of that was mental. The argument about LeBron being a stronger and faster physical player is worthless; this is a team game, not one-on-one and Jordan's teams have won more championships than LeBron's teams; even though it could be argued--especially in Miami--that LeBron had the better supporting casts. He just barely went 2-2 with great teams; it really should have been 1-3 with only a lucky Ray Allen 3 at the buzzer against the Spurs to prevent it. The title he has in 2016 was ref-assisted, so legitimately he should be 1-8 in Finals. I know "should be's" don't really matter; just pointing it out. He does not make his team better when it matters most; no matter how his personal stats look.

    LeBron started younger and was great quicker for that reason, plus didn't need a couple years break to deal with a personal crisis by switching professions, so he has been to more finals; he just can't seem to win them. LeBron is like a combo of the talent of Magic and Michael, but doesn't have the killer instinct of either. L-Dub says LeBron would have been obviously the best in the 90's; I say if it wasn't for Magic and Michael in the 90's, he probably never would have played the sport and likely been a tight end instead. Jordan's the best ever; probably always will be--at least in my lifetime.
    Last edited by XanMan; 06-12-2018 at 03:19 PM.

  11. #11
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    But is either better than Abdul-Jabbar?

    (I say this coming from the same place as Prime, with llittle understanding of the game, but have certainnnly seen it said that Abdul-Jabber is second only to Jordan in NBA history, and on stats alone it seems kind of close to me?)

    ((That said, LeBron never led a team of Looney Tunnes to defeat an intergalactic team of aliens on the court, so Jordan probably has the edge.))

  12. #12
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    What hurts Jabbar or any center really, is that they don't do as many things on the court as other, wing like players do. Centers, even ones when they game was catered to them, need others to get them the ball in spots they like. Jabbar wasn't going to break people down off the dribble

    An all time great, fantastic longevity and top 5 player of all time... but not the GOAT imo. Jordan or Lebron is the only debate for a reason.

  13. #13
    Senior Member LWO4Life's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
    But is either better than Abdul-Jabbar?

    (I say this coming from the same place as Prime, with llittle understanding of the game, but have certainnnly seen it said that Abdul-Jabber is second only to Jordan in NBA history, and on stats alone it seems kind of close to me?)

    ((That said, LeBron never led a team of Looney Tunnes to defeat an intergalactic team of aliens on the court, so Jordan probably has the edge.))
    People generally don't like ranking big men. If you look at the NBA pre-Jordan, big men ruled the sport. Wilt, Kareem, Russell. In the 90's, the NBA might have had it's greatest influx of big men talent, but the Bulls kept winning which changed the idea of the need of a big man. And since smaller guards are more entertaining to watch, big men have sort of been pushed out the argument. When arguing LeBron vs. Jordan, no one brings up that Duncan is 2-1 against LeBron is the NBA Finals. Hell, no one brings up that Duncan's Spurs beat Kobe's Lakers in the playoffs either, especially the Kobe/Shaq team in 2003, the year Kobe started taking over the team from Shaq (which started the break up of the duo because Shaq wasn't ready to give up the team.) But if you look at the NBA just the last 20 years, Duncan is so important, and so good, but since he's a big man, he's not valued as much. I will not say that's right or wrong. What I am saying is that these analyst who comment on the game wouldn't bring him up.

    When you are talking Jordan vs. LeBron, I go with Jordan all the time because he's a GREATER player to me. I'll piss off Nick Wright with this, but I put Kobe over LeBron. Head to head, LeBron beats Kobe in every stat in every game they played against each other. But for some reason, Kobe in the late-2000's found a way to win titles. LeBron joined the Heat in a super team and was one Ray Allen shot away from being 1-3 with the most talented team in the NBA. LeBron has ever single tool you need, but something has been missing, and I only saw it once in 2016 against that Warriors team, and I saw it in these playoffs until that heartbreaking lose in game 1 of the Finals. But when I watched Kobe, or Jordan play, I saw that extra drive that is needed to win.

    Now to me, if you factor in big men, then the rankings of who's the best change, for me. I actually rank Bill Russell as #1 all time. I said, and yes it's the rings. But it's the rings because he led the greatest team, he had to defend the most dominate force in NBA history, Wilt Chamberlain, who was like nothing ever seen before, and Russell had to stop him. Even in games where Wilt scored 40 points, Russell was able to hold him to sub-45% FG%, and Wilt was usually about 55% FG%. Like one game, Wilt scored 50 (that season he AVERAGED 50ppg) but he did it on 48% shooting, and ONLY 17 rebounds (AVERAGED 24rpg) and Russell was able to contain Wilt enough. Eventually in seasons that Wilt averaged over 35ppg, Russell was generally able to hold him for less than 30ppg. (Now some games Wilt would explode and score 35 or 37 points on Russell too, but those were not the norm.) Here is the biggest stat, in the playoffs, Russell was able to hold Wilt to only 25PPG head to head. When Russell joined the Lakers to have Jerry West and Elgin Baylor as his teammates, Russell and the Celtics STILL beat him. People sleep on the big men because they are not fun to watch, but if you compare Wilt to Russell and you see what Russell did to win those titles against Wilt, you'd realize that Russell is #1, to me at least.

  14. #14
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    What's more interesting to me is this. I don't think there will be a GOAT type player in my lifetime past Jordan and Lebron and those only 2 count. Reason being? The team game centered around 3's and pick and roll. You can be a great player but you need to fit into that mold. Harden, Westbrook, Durant and Curry are considered the NBA's prime best players, but they don't touch Lebron or Jordan... Warriors aren't lead by one guy, as such, Curry and Durant are diminished. I'd say Durant is the closest to Lebron or Jordan but he's never led his own team to a title. The rest have other flaws that exclude them.

    Its not going to get better either in this convo.. because any players coming in, won't command the attention, or play iso ball as much as Lebron and Jordan did. That's not how you win in today's game. Sure, great players, better athletes but no Goats

  15. #15
    Senior Member LWO4Life's Avatar
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    Actually, what I've noticed in every sport, the definition of GOAT changes with the times. Prior to MJ, Magic was the GOAT, as people said MJ was a ball hog, and he couldn't win because he wasn't a team player, and Magic was a team player, he made his teammates better, he was a better leader. Now we are in the iso age, MJ is the greatest. But LeBron to me is the second "Post-Modern" player in the NBA, which basically a player that's bigger, faster and stronger than everyone else. Shaq was the first "Post-Modern" player. Eventually we'll get more "Post-Modern" player, like Ben Simmons now, a 6'8" PG who's got all the skills. He's basically a faster, stronger Magic. Magic was tall, but he wasn't as fast, athletic. Magic was long, lankey, but he wasn't like LeBron, Simmons. Eventually we'll get a "Post-Modern" player that'll be so good, he'll win like Jordan, and we'll be talking about MJ, Kobe, Magic as dinosaurs and they'll be left with Wilt, Kareem and Russell.

  16. #16
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    That's probably true. I, like LK, would take Kobe over LeBron, as well. I simply forgot to mention it.

  17. #17
    Member #25 SirSam's Avatar
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    I think if LeBron can turn the Lakers around and win another championship with them it would be hard to deny he is pulling level with Jordan.
    Last edited by SirSam; 07-01-2018 at 11:58 PM.

  18. #18
    Well the landscape looks to have changed. Regardless of if they get Leonard and Cousins I canít see the Lakers competing for a ring. Theyíll still be a couple pieces short. Would have Rockets as favourites, personally. With Warriors and Celtics behind them. Even 76ers in front of the Lakers. Itís a work in progress. He signed on for four years for a reason. He knows he wonít be competing straight away. Plus I think he moved for his kid more so then him winning a ring straight away. So that has to be applauded.

  19. #19
    Member #25 SirSam's Avatar
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    But Lonzo Ball......

  20. #20
    Is going to get shipped off in hope of getting Kawhi.

  21. #21
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    The thing is, even if Lebron wins a title in LA, he still isn't anywhere near Jordan's level imo. People hate this stat in this debate, especially as a Lebron fan, but that would put him at a sad 4-6 in the finals (IF he even won on his first try). 6-0 is 6-0. It will always be perfection. Lebron can never attain that perfection Jordan had. No matter how many times he wins again. He can never erase those 6 losses. And I would argue until the end of time that Lebron has had way better talent around him. Pippen was the only All-Star MJ had on his team.

    All MJ ever had was Pippen. And Pippen wasn't as good as Kyrie Irving, or Dwayne Wade in his prime. Lebron has also had Chris Bosh in his prime, and Kevin Love in his prime. Two perennial all-stars. MJ only had Pippen, but MJ elevated everyone's game around him. That doesnt happen with Lebron. Guys dont rally around him. Jordan gave guys confidence, because when you got a guy like that leading your team, anything really is possible. So guys like Steve Kerr and Toni Kukoc started looking like a million bucks playing with him, even though without him they were middle of the league talent. He raised their confidence levels exponentially. Which is why I honestly also rank Tim Duncan higher than Lebron. Duncan quietly amassed an amazing career from elevating everyone around him, and being the quintessential role player. And Duncan was 5-0 in the Finals I believe(?). Hell I don't even think Lebron is the best SF of all-time- I give that distinction to Larry Bird. Who played with more heart every night than Lebron has shown in his entire career.

    And I rank Kobe above Lebron too. And I honestly kinda hate Kobe. I feel like his entire game was ripped off from MJ. I always called him MJ lite. I won't contest that Lebron is quite possibly the greatest athlete to compete in the NBA ever, but just being the greatest athlete isn't enough. As his 3-6 record has proven. Less talented guys have won more, with less talented players around them.


    Also, honestly, the Lakers will never win with Lebron. Did you see his deal?!?!? Like 40 million a year! Jordan's top salary season was like 25 million. How much money is left to build a championship team after paying Lebron? Not enough. Lebron's price tag will ensure that he will never win another NBA title again.


  22. #22
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    The rings debate only works if you think Lebron should have a better finals record than he has because Jordan's team was supposed to win every finals that they were in. Lebron i'd say has come up short when he shouldn't have and its why i'd say if Lebron won another at his age and the talent he'll have on the team.. even if they get Kawhi, that is really impressive. People forget this, but Lebron is 33 and hasn't really dropped off. Sure he takes plays off but he's still one of if not the best player in the game today.. So either father time catches up to him.... or he still keeps playing amazing whereas Jordan retired right at 34.

    I'm a Jordan guy but Lebron keeps this level well into his late 30s, then its hard to argue that he's not at least 1B

  23. #23
    Steph Curry made $37M and still can be on a contender. The salary won't hinder the Lakers, the surrounding talent will. They could still get Cousins and/or Leonard, but I don't think it's enough to beat the Warriors. Cousins is a loser and Leonard is soft.

    If Jordan could make $40M, he would have. Salaries grow.

  24. #24
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    Yeah the money isn't the issue if we're comparing back to Jordan's era... its a totally different time, bigger salaries, and its not a hard cap so stars can force their way on to teams.. like The Spurs are over a barrel cause Kawhi wants to play for the Lakers so they either get best offer from lakers they can get.. or they trade him elsewhere for less because everyone knows he'll leave next year.

    Lakers don't have any more money to sign Cousins though.

    I honestly think Lebron went there cause that's where he wants to retire. He can't beat the Warriors next year with this team. And father time will catch up.

  25. #25
    Member #25 SirSam's Avatar
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    You could construe the stats argument to say that MJ only actually made it to 6 playoffs whereas LeBron got his teams to 10. Not as impressive at first glance but when you think about it it is quite something.

    I don't have a horse in this game but it is a very interesting debate.

    Also Kleck, you are forgetting the Aussie great Luke Longley. Undoubtedly an integral part of the Bulls team.

  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by LK3185 View Post
    Yeah the money isn't the issue if we're comparing back to Jordan's era... its a totally different time, bigger salaries, and its not a hard cap so stars can force their way on to teams.. like The Spurs are over a barrel cause Kawhi wants to play for the Lakers so they either get best offer from lakers they can get.. or they trade him elsewhere for less because everyone knows he'll leave next year.

    Lakers don't have any more money to sign Cousins though.

    I honestly think Lebron went there cause that's where he wants to retire. He can't beat the Warriors next year with this team. And father time will catch up.
    I agree. I think he’s setting himself up for a post-nba career and he’s in the best place to do that.

    And the Bulls were stacked with depth LeBron has never seen.
    Last edited by comfortablynumb; 07-02-2018 at 07:00 PM.

  27. #27
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    Kleck,

    Saying all MJ had was Pippen is ludicrous. Along the way, he had BJ Armstrong, John Paxson, Steve Kerr, Horace Grant, Kukoc, Dennis Rodman, and Ron Harper. Maybe not all-time greats, but definitely enough to back up him and Pippen.

  28. #28
    Yeah. Rodman is a HOFer and one of the best rebounders of all time. Kukoc was the best non-NBA player in the world when he joined the Bulls.

  29. #29
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    I totally forgot one key player in that rotation... the GOAT coach Phil Jackson taking over right when the Bulls started their dominance.

  30. #30
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    If Lebron can beat the current GSW lineup this season, he is the GOAT.

  31. #31
    Anyone got links so I can watch the CFL? Pointless watching the new season with this Warriors team. Pretty bad that you have to hope they have a significant injury or two to make it compelling.

  32. #32
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    Tell me how it was compelling before the Boogie signing? Who I might add is coming off a torn achilles and might not ever be the same but still really good obviously... But besides that, The Warriors would still be the best team. They didn't lose any key guys, Houston got worse losing Ariza and people might want to pump up Lebron to the Lakers but even if they got Kawhi, that team wouldn't be better than the Warriors..

    The only challenge possibly would be the Celtics and even then, the Celtics would have been underdogs.

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