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Thread: NXT UK

  1. #81
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    Exactly. I've often said that so far, AEW isn't for me. But it's not like they are hurting or closing down without my viewership. Plenty of others are paying their money, and I'll never be upset that AEW is doing business. Better work for wrestlers only helps the entire business.

    That said, Fuck Flips.

  2. #82
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    I'm basically out the door when it comes to wrestling now, but I sort of feel the same way. They clearly don't want fans of my ilk anymore. Well, good luck to 'em. There's a few people doing just fine. I do worry about the overall health and the future when people as dedicated as I've been for decades can't stick it anymore, but ultimately it's their choice to make.

    If they do ever decide they need to appeal more to people like me, then I might come back. If not, I won't, regardless. And frankly I find that a much better place to be than when I was putting a lot of effort into trying to like wrestling and getting very little out of it in return.

    But I don't like the idea that fans like me have turned against wrestling because we've simply decided not to like it, or because we're not trying hard enough. Some wrestlers and a vocal subset of fans have made a conscious effort to move the business away from us, not the other way around.

    "The worst moron is the one too stupid to realise they're a moron."

  3. #83
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    Is it tough admin/modding this site if you don't follow anymore? Still doing any writing or podcasting?

    I think I'm more into wrestling now than ever. I actually credit the fact that I no longer write/podcast because I can concentrate on just watching. BUT, I also rarely watch anything with my full attention. I watch most wrestling on one screen while I'm either doing something else, or using another screen (like play EWR on my laptop). I focus on the show only for big events or single matches in a mild event. I'm a story guy these days, and find the wrestling style losing me more and more. There are highlights on almost any show, but when Raw is 3 hours, it's too much to watch every single match and segment. Or shows don't have enough variety to stand out from match to match, like what I feel AEW does.

    It's weird having this discussion in NXT UK thread, as it's the one WWE brand I do not watch. I started the recent UK Takeover, and stopped at the tag match. I'll back up and try again, but I kept getting up to do something else. I want to watch Bate vs WALTER, as both have been fantastic when I do watch. But it's really hard to get through so much other stuff. Dar vs Banks? Meh. Storm I like, but Kay Lee Ray? Meh. The hoss brawl? Meh... I love tag wrestling, so I want to enjoy the triple threat title match, but none of the talent really interest me. Meh.

  4. #84
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    Not really. I only finally broke away from the last bits I was clinging to a couple of months ago, so it's a relatively new thing. You can chip in on the odd conversation here and there (like this) and you can post bits of news in other threads, and the actual modding side of things.... I mean, you don't actually have to watch in order to make sure people aren't being dicks to each other, y'know?

    As for writing, the only bit I've done since finally tapping out has been on the LoP title series, and again, that's not something that requires a lot of watching.

    So no, in short, I'm getting on fine, but I can't imagine I'm going to be the most productive content producer in future.

    I watched NXT for quite a long time in the way you've described there. I've not really been the biggest fan of a lot of the Takeover shows but I found some of what they were doing on the weekly stuff pretty good and watching some of the stories play out. But at the end of the day, I'm not great at compartmentalising, and just watching for one thing. If it's never going to give me what I'm looking for, I'd rather spend the time doing something else at this point.

    I guess I sort of feel like I've given more than enough chances to half a dozen or more different promotions to pull me back in over the last nine years.

    "The worst moron is the one too stupid to realise they're a moron."

  5. #85
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    The Triple Threat Tag match was my 2nd favorite match of the night, Pen. Some good spots in there.



    And Cult, I wasn't really knocking Lucha, so much as saying my suspension of disbelief kind of dies when guys perform extremely high risk moves deep into a match. Early on I'm all for it, but it just seems like if it were a real fight, you're way too physically exhausted 25 minutes into a match to perform super high risk moves (unless it is a very logical spot). When that kind of stuff happens I tend to tune out slightly. Especially when they start kicking out of insane shit. Some of my all-time favorite wrestling to this day remains the mid to late 90s WCW Lucha scene. I just enjoy seeing physical progression as a match carries on, otherwise I might as well be watching or playing a video game where the wrestlers never get tired.

    Prime I bet if you gave a description of the type of wrestling you want, someone on here knows of a current fed that is right up your alley. Though I totally get where you are coming from (Pen as well). It seems to be an uphill battle at times. Though sometimes you do find gems. I thought Bate vs WALTER was one of them. Hearing the crowd react to WALTER is proof that that man is very highly skilled at what he does.

    Toni Storm vs Bay Lee Ray was nothing to write home about honestly. And Mastiff vs Coffey had some good spots, and a creative finish, but wasn't ground breaking, or exceedingly fun. Cesaro had a decent match too, but Cesaro just seems to go through the motions now more than anything.

    I think any fan who has been at this for decades is gonna have a hard time finding a product that checks off all the boxes. Wrestling is just much different from those days. At some point though, it will cycle back around when people get tired of 900 false finishes per match.


  6. #86
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    I think you can be open minded to other styles of wrestling while also feeling something isn't for you and there's no point in continuing down that road. Not everyone is going to like the same book, or movies etc. Same with wrestling.

    For me, if something works for me in the context of the match and promotion I'm watching, I just go with it and enjoy it... but like that goes match to match. I can watch a spot fest and think it was amazing and then think it doesn't work in a certain situation and there's too many this or that for it to work.

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kleckamania View Post
    Prime I bet if you gave a description of the type of wrestling you want, someone on here knows of a current fed that is right up your alley.
    I do remember having a conversation with Mizfan along those lines once (because you know he watches almost everthing outside the 'E), but we pretty much struck out. The best we could do was you'll like x and y more than most others, but yeah, that was as good as it got.

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  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by LK3185 View Post
    I think you can be open minded to other styles of wrestling while also feeling something isn't for you and there's no point in continuing down that road. Not everyone is going to like the same book, or movies etc. Same with wrestling.

    For me, if something works for me in the context of the match and promotion I'm watching, I just go with it and enjoy it... but like that goes match to match. I can watch a spot fest and think it was amazing and then think it doesn't work in a certain situation and there's too many this or that for it to work.
    This is the closest someone has gotten to understanding what I was trying to say. I'm not suggesting that everyone needs to like every match ever or every style ever; it's not possible. What I'm saying is most fans, in my opinion, will go into a match thinking "if it doesn't have this then it sucks" or "if it has that it sucks" and by doing so they limit themselves to seeing other avenues in telling a story. In my opinion high flying is the victim of this the most. I hear people talk about all the time how "it just isn't real", but then on the flip side how else are these guys supposed to win matches? If wrestling was real would Fenix have a better shot at beating the Young Bucks by wrestling a methodical, King Cuerno esq style or is he going to beat them because he's a better high flyer than them and that gives him an edge? Is Nick Gage going to beat a guy by out wrestling him on the ground, or is he going to beat him by bringing his opponent into the death match element and beating him to a pulp with weapons? I think people sometimes get so caught up in how wrestling needs to conform to their way that they don't realize that sometimes their way isn't all that realistic either. And I think instead of going into a match thinking "if there's a flip then this match automatically sucks because it means no storytelling" or "if there are no flips then this match automatically sucks" it would be better if people went in going "this match could have anything in it, let's see if it works within that context."

    It does not mean everything is great; like you point out Lazyking it's a match by match basis. There have been plenty of high flying/lucha libre matches that I haven't liked. There's been plenty of matches that aren't like that that I have liked. I just personally don't think a match should be disqualified based on what style it is. At the end of the day I think liking every style possible when done right just gives you more of an opportunity to enjoy wrestling. But hey, maybe that's just me.


  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cult Icon View Post
    What I'm saying is most fans, in my opinion, will go into a match thinking "if it doesn't have this then it sucks" or "if it has that it sucks" and by doing so they limit themselves to seeing other avenues in telling a story.

    Well, we'll have to agree to disagree on this. Maybe I'm just naive but I certainly don't believe 'most' fans do this, and I don't recognise it in myself at all. It feels like an easy way to blame other fans for not liking something rather than interrogating what might be wrong with a product. But, to borrow your phrase, maybe that's just me.


    For whatever it's worth, my problem is not to do with style. Yes, some are more prone to presenting problems than others, but I've seen brawls I've liked, high flying matches I've liked, along with the old-fashioned diet of technical wrestling. It's hard to find the exact word for what, exactly, it is that causes the problems for me, but style - at least in the way we're using it here - isn't it.

    "The worst moron is the one too stupid to realise they're a moron."

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by LK3185 View Post
    I think you can be open minded to other styles of wrestling while also feeling something isn't for you and there's no point in continuing down that road. Not everyone is going to like the same book, or movies etc. Same with wrestling.

    For me, if something works for me in the context of the match and promotion I'm watching, I just go with it and enjoy it... but like that goes match to match. I can watch a spot fest and think it was amazing and then think it doesn't work in a certain situation and there's too many this or that for it to work.
    That's true. There will be occasions when spot heavy fits the plot, like Gargano vs Ciampa- it was a blood feud, so they were fighting with a big time intensity and adrenaline and hatred they don't normally use- completely logical. And times when false finishes fit the plot, as there is an added desperation, maybe like the RAW match between Punk and Cena all those years ago to determine which would go to Mania to face the Rock for the World Title. Booking starts to be the difference there I think. You can't just make every match that high intensity, it kind of cheapens the value of the entire product for me tbh. But there is a place for just about everything in moderation. Minus maybe David Arquette.


  11. #91
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    EDIT, posted from phone, so forgive terrible autocorrected awfulness.

    Cult, I think high flying gets the bad rap you're talking about because it's the style that falls out of logic the easiest. Randy Savage was a flyer in his time, but it wasn't overly complicated. He would bodyslam someone, climb the ropes, drop and elbow. There's still suspension of disbelief, obviously, because anyone in a real flight who winds the opponent with a slam isn't going to climb onto the bar room pool table, and drop an elbow. But at least it's a simple leap of disbelief to get there. Your gif on the other hand, has no basis of reality whatsoever. They are running at each other, jumping into the ropes, hugging, then one of them somehow has the strength to flip the other person over backwards with one arm, while flipping themselves forwards... I'm not saying it isn't impressive. What lucha guys do as an artform is beautiful. To achieve that live without slipping on a regular basis is insane. Gymnasts or synchronized swimmers in the Olympics plan one routine for years at a time for one performance, but these guys switch the act up nightly, and still nail those moves. It's outstanding.

    But it's completely stupid. And something like that takes me out of the story of a match. I'm not saying the wrestling I enjoy doesn't have planned stunts that aren't logical. Only wrestling fans would think it's normal to get in a brawl and aim to put the opponent through a table. That said, I have won a fistfight with a suplex. Not a great one, it wasn't ever going to be a Kurt Angle highlight. But I ducked and grabbed the guy around the waist as he was trying to punch me, and essentially belly to belly slammed him to the ground, and then got on top in a MMA mount position, until people broke it up. I also had a guy charge me with a spear, and I took the hit but didn't fall, pushed his head down between my knees, and basically gave a pile driver. It wasn't really one, because what I was actually doing was just squeezing his temples with my knees, and lifted him up out of instinct from watching wrestling. It was ridiculous. But it ended the fight because who the fuck expects a brawl to have a piledriver submission head squish?

    I guess I got off track. But my point is that there are pro wrestling moves that do make sense, and then some that don't. But if they agent going to make sense, there's a certain amount of forgiveness my brain will allow, and won't notice. And then there's the Spanish Fly in your gif.

    I don't hate all flips. On NXT recently, Keith Lee and Dijak performed A Spanish Fly, and it was amazing. But I think it worked for me because it didn't look planned and it wasn't executed perfectly. Had it been picture perfect, I think I would have lost my interest in the match. But it was somewhat logically set up, and was sloppy, which fit these guys. They made it belong in their match.

    And while I get that you don't care about the difference, please understand that it's a huge difference to many others.

  12. #92
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    I was actually going to make an argument that, like the Lee-Dijak spot, that the Vikingo-Laredo Spanish Fly wasn't hit perfectly...then I looked at it again and I have to admit it was! They pretty much get that entire thing right, which just makes me love it even more because one slip up and they're both crashing and burning. There's a reason they're the only two to have tried that spot anywhere, at least from what I've seen.

    I appreciate your reasoning. At the end of the day I guess the lack of realism just doesn't bother me the way it appears to bother others. And it's not that I don't enjoy realism in wrestling; like I said, I love every style of wrestling as long as its done well. But it doesn't speak to me like lucha and high flying does.


  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kleckamania View Post
    That's true. There will be occasions when spot heavy fits the plot, like Gargano vs Ciampa- it was a blood feud, so they were fighting with a big time intensity and adrenaline and hatred they don't normally use- completely logical. And times when false finishes fit the plot, as there is an added desperation, maybe like the RAW match between Punk and Cena all those years ago to determine which would go to Mania to face the Rock for the World Title. Booking starts to be the difference there I think. You can't just make every match that high intensity, it kind of cheapens the value of the entire product for me tbh. But there is a place for just about everything in moderation. Minus maybe David Arquette.
    I. its not a set thing but yeah certain matches you're looking for certain things to happen and that can also be a trap because you'll be disappointed when that doesn't happen... except not every main event should be some epic.. This is what NXT falls into, NJPW... most of the promotions now feel like they have to deliver something to that level..

    When really its more about what will connect with the audience the most and fit the match you want to tell. If you do every main event the same, they are judged against each other and likely you reach a point where you can't top something.... top Matches need to be unique unto themselves, basically. Especially if you're giving good quality TV matches, why care if you're getting more of the same on big events?

    Sorry for the rambling post.

  14. #94
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    Can't believe we've had pages of of MotY discussion without someone saying Shingo vs Ishii which was fucking badass.

    The thing is, I kind of like the style of match that Bate and Walter went for - certainly more than some of the other bouts that people have raved about this year. But something didn't quite click on it for me. Runtime is certainly the most obvious issue, but I think they just didn't reinvent the wheel within the extra runtime, if that makes sense - it was the same thing rinsed and repeated, a ten minute beatdown by Walter and then a rally from Bate, again, and again, and again. Or, at least, it felt like it.

    I'm not expecting Walter to do a Spanish Fly, exactly, but I kind of wanted them to switch gears in one of those beat down bits.

    I might watch it again and see if my first reaction still holds.

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by PEN15v2 View Post
    And while I get that you don't care about the difference, please understand that it's a huge difference to many others.

    Not going to quote the whole post here, but taken as a whole this is a more articulate way of putting what I'd been trying to say.

    I am one of the people that it bothers. I'll go further, it's a dealbreaker for me. I can probably take a moment or two per show - by which I mean big shows, not on a weekly basis - that I can live with before it starts to ruin it for me. And what I've come to realise is that a huge number of both wrestlers and fans don't really want people who think like that around anymore. I've heard people say that they do, but it doesn't feel meant, because there's never any real effort to listen to what could bring us back, or any willingness to change in order to appeal to a wider base. The attitude always seems to be 'I'm alright, Jack'.

    Ultimately, what you're on the outside and people are saying we should all just like wrestling and it's for everyone, it just reeks of deception to those of us who've been left out. What that really translates to is 'just fuck off and leave me alone, because I'm getting what I want out of it.'

    I suppose it's not a surprise, then, that eventually I decided to fuck off and leave it all alone.

    "The worst moron is the one too stupid to realise they're a moron."

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by LK3185 View Post
    For me, if something works for me in the context of the match and promotion I'm watching, I just go with it and enjoy it...
    See, this is very important. Despite what most people would assume, I love me some Orange Cassidy. Joey Ryan, too. But I love those guys in the context of hipster wrestling bullshit, or in a bar in front of 150 people who don't give a shit about wrestling.

    On those GCW shows on WrestleMania weekend (which are the height of hipster wrestling bullshit), I love Orange Cassidy. I loved seeing Teddy Hart read a book and get holy shit chants for it. I think Invisible Man vs Invisible Stan should be required viewing for all new referees.

    But Blood Sport was still my favourite of all those shows, and if I'd seen a dick flip on it I probably would have been confused.

    This is why I have issues with some of the guys they're bringing in to AEW. Because I get that "AEW is for everyone" and that's a great catchphrase, but functionally a show featuring a blood feud between Cody and Spears that's really intense, personal and old school but also has a small child wrestling competitively with grown people on the card and could potentially include Orange Cassidy's shtick, doesn't work. It becomes a promotion with no context at all, and that doesn't jive for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by PEN15v2 View Post
    There's still suspension of disbelief, obviously, because anyone in a real flight who winds the opponent with a slam isn't going to climb onto the bar room pool table, and drop an elbow.
    Speak for yourself.

  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Farrell View Post
    This is why I have issues with some of the guys they're bringing in to AEW. Because I get that "AEW is for everyone" and that's a great catchphrase, but functionally a show featuring a blood feud between Cody and Spears that's really intense, personal and old school but also has a small child wrestling competitively with grown people on the card and could potentially include Orange Cassidy's shtick, doesn't work. It becomes a promotion with no context at all, and that doesn't jive for me.
    I know Marko looks like a child Coach but he is in fact 23 years old. He is an adult, he's just a very tiny adult! He also was barely featured in that match; the star of it was the Luchasaurus, who is the exact type of wrestler (big, strong and able to do some really cool stuff athletically) you commonly ask for! It's a shame he has gotten more hype coming out because I think he's a potential mega star in the making.

    Also, the crux of your "AEW doesn't work because it has a blood feud, but then has Marko and Orange Cassidy doing their thing and thus has no context" argument just doesn't work for me, because you're suggesting the way to fix it is to get rid of what those guys do and make things exactly the same. And that's boring. I watch all three CMLL shows that are streamed each and every week. Every match is taken seriously, every match largely has the same feel. And guess what; CMLL is one of the most boring promotions in the world today! If everything is exactly the same and everything is treated with the same levity then nothing at all is special. You need variety. You need Orange Cassidy doing his thing. You need the Bucks, Pentagon and Fenix to go balls to the wall. You need Cody and Spears to wrestle like two guys who's friendship has been torn apart. You need something for everyone, the buffet as Eric Bischoff calls it. Because otherwise, while things being taken more seriously may work for you, it may not work for others who are coming in to watch AEW after growing of tired of what they've previously seen and want something different. You can't give them different by being exactly the same.


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    Agreeing on Cult for that last part. WWE is the most varied of all wrestling variety shows, and while there can be a serious Brock Lesnar feud, there can also be New Day tossing pancakes, or a non-wrestler like Shane McMahon looking competitive with Olympic medalists, or Otis doing the worm into an elbow drop. Otis matches are some of the worst, but it doesn't ruin my interest in the Orton vs Kofi feud leading into this weekend's PPV.

    And while I have not finished AEW, Marko didn't bug me in the slightest. His contributions were logical: quick offense, but was mostly ineffective against SCU, who dominated him and Jungle Boy due to the size difference, while Luchasaurus was the true star of that team. Marko was the weak link, who only had about 10% control of the offense, and sold the rest of the time.

  19. #99
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    All for variety, myself. Always said there are ways to do comedy in wrestling, and all that kinda thing, without losing a lot of people. I just wish there was a middle ground, that we didn't have to leap to the kind of stuff that means a lot of people just aren't going to be able to sit through a show like this. I agree with the argument that you need to be able to present a whole lot of different things to keep people interested. I disagree with the sense that you need those people, and those things, in order to do that.

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  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cult Icon View Post
    I know Marko looks like a child Coach but he is in fact 23 years old. He is an adult, he's just a very tiny adult! He also was barely featured in that match; the star of it was the Luchasaurus, who is the exact type of wrestler (big, strong and able to do some really cool stuff athletically) you commonly ask for! It's a shame he has gotten more hype coming out because I think he's a potential mega star in the making.
    I know he's an adult. I was being facetious because he does look like a teenager.

    I think Luchasaurus is awesome, and his team with Jungle Boy was great. It's just that one addition. Stunt has his place, though. Again, having Stunt as a manager who can bump would work wonders in my eyes. Having Jungle Boy and Luchsaurus go after the heels that brutalized Stunt and left him a bloody mess on TV would be amazing and create a compelling story. I just don't need to see him wrestling competitively with the adults.

    Also, the crux of your "AEW doesn't work because it has a blood feud, but then has Marko and Orange Cassidy doing their thing and thus has no context" argument just doesn't work for me, because you're suggesting the way to fix it is to get rid of what those guys do and make things exactly the same. And that's boring. I watch all three CMLL shows that are streamed each and every week. Every match is taken seriously, every match largely has the same feel. And guess what; CMLL is one of the most boring promotions in the world today! If everything is exactly the same and everything is treated with the same levity then nothing at all is special. You need variety. You need Orange Cassidy doing his thing. You need the Bucks, Pentagon and Fenix to go balls to the wall. You need Cody and Spears to wrestle like two guys who's friendship has been torn apart. You need something for everyone, the buffet as Eric Bischoff calls it. Because otherwise, while things being taken more seriously may work for you, it may not work for others who are coming in to watch AEW after growing of tired of what they've previously seen and want something different. You can't give them different by being exactly the same.
    I don't want everything to be the same. Not ever match has to have a deep personal issue or be a grudge. And there's a space for comedy in all wrestling.

    But if they're saying out of one side of their mouth that what you're seeing is supposed to be legitimate athletic competition with W/L records and these amazing contests between highly skilled wrestlers, only to say out of the other side of their mouth that wrestling is fun and we have children wrestling grown ups and the guy with his hands in the pockets, the two sides don't jive.

    His gimmick is that he knows he's so good that he doesn't care and he's too cool for all of it. But if this is a legitimate athletic competition, should Orange Cassidy want to lay in those shots and take the hands out of the pockets in order to win the match, advance up the rankings, win the belt and make more money? Shouldn't Luchasaurus and Jungle Boy tell their buddy that as much as they love him, wins and losses count and they just can't risk having that weak link out there with them?

    I defended Braun having a kid as his partner at WrestleMania, because the entire build to that match was Braun didn't think he needed a partner to win but they were forcing him to have one. So he picked a kid from ringside. It was him accepting the rule put on him by the company, while at the same time flaunting it by picking someone who still couldn't be of any help to him. It made sense in terms of what they'd spent time setting up. Braun was so arrogant that he was willing to have that weak link in his corner. I don't get that vibe from Jurassic Express. It's three buddies where nobody's willing to have the tough conversation with their undersized pal.

    I'm all for comedy and fun in wrestling, but within the confines of what's supposed to be an athletic competition. Especially when the whole set-up is that this matters and we're keeping records, and the end goal should be the title, to have guys blatantly flaunt that is just reminding the audience that, right, none of this actually matters.

    Embarrass the heel in a comedic way. Bust out something funny in your matches. Wrestle an entire match around a comedic concept. But at least, in this specific "wins and losses matter and this is 'real'" environment, act like you intend to win the match.

    Again, I love OC. His shtick hasn't worn thin on me at all. But if he was booked for Bloodsport or New Japan, I'd think it was dumb.

    Quote Originally Posted by PEN15v2 View Post
    Agreeing on Cult for that last part. WWE is the most varied of all wrestling variety shows, and while there can be a serious Brock Lesnar feud, there can also be New Day tossing pancakes, or a non-wrestler like Shane McMahon looking competitive with Olympic medalists, or Otis doing the worm into an elbow drop. Otis matches are some of the worst, but it doesn't ruin my interest in the Orton vs Kofi feud leading into this weekend's PPV.
    But where all of that is going on, it's not absurd. New Day is tossing out pancakes, but when it comes time to wrestle, they're clearly out there to win the match. Otis is having fun and being entertaining, but he's doing it as he's crushing an opponent.

    Imagine if Xavier Woods took a tag from Big E and tried to convince his opponents to play video games with him rather than wrestle. That wouldn't fit the context of everything else we've seen on the show.

    EDIT: I love the Eiffel Tower, it's one of my favourite trios spots and makes me laugh ever time. But it's still within the context of a professional wrestling match.

  21. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by PEN15v2 View Post
    but it doesn't ruin my interest in the Orton vs Kofi feud leading into this weekend's PPV.
    This is a key point, I think. Everyone has a threshold of what they'll put up with before it ruins their interest in the show more broadly.

    And this, I think, is basically why:

    Quote Originally Posted by Team Farrell View Post
    to have guys blatantly flaunt that is just reminding the audience that, right, none of this actually matters.
    So the question is, how many signals (and of what strength) that this doesn't really matter can you take before you get convinced of that yourself?

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  22. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prime Time View Post
    So the question is, how many signals (and of what strength) that this doesn't really matter can you take before you get convinced of that yourself?
    For me, the threshold is when it stops being an athletic contest that someone is trying to win, or it becomes completely unbelievable.

    All of the most choreographed, flippy wrestling on the planet is still, in theory, a fight that two guys are both trying to win. That GIF in Cult's signature is a guy trying to win a match by cutting off another's attempt at a springboard and giving him a move. Within the confines of pro wrestling, sure I'll believe that move. I believe Sting's gorilla press and it's no less silly.

    For me, it's when all of the other context clues of the show are that this is not all fun and games and silliness, but people are doing things that are all fun and games and silliness.

    If OC stuck his hands in his pockets because he thought that he was so good he didn't even need them to win, and all the while he's ducking and dodging (which he does) while laying in some stiff kicks and knees and somehow breaking out things like northern lights suplexes, that's one thing. It's kind of a millennial version of "I could beat you with one hand tied behind my back." I can stretch to buy that within the context of an athletic competition because you have one guy who's coming in that cocky.

    I don't know exactly where the line is, but to have him there, hands in pockets, delivering light taps only for a guy not to boot him in the face is way past it for me if this is supposed to be a competition where wins and losses count. Even worse when some guys start to play along.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Farrell View Post
    But where all of that is going on, it's not absurd. New Day is tossing out pancakes, but when it comes time to wrestle, they're clearly out there to win the match. Otis is having fun and being entertaining, but he's doing it as he's crushing an opponent.
    In some other thread, you talked about how Pentagon took too long to take off his glove, and it bugged you. I fail to see how that same annoyance does not come into play when Otis is taking 49 seconds to drop an elbow.

  24. #104
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    I don't think anyone knows exactly where the line is, but I do believe it's fairly clear that most people have a similar line, on the same sort of criteria, and it's something you know immediately when you see it crossed even if it isn't always the easiest thing to articulate.

    Obviously the gamble is that there are more people who will be attracted by the novelty of this stuff than people who'll be turned off by it and tune out as a result. And to go back to my post above, that's fine, even if it does mean fans like myself are left out in the cold. It's ultimately their bet to make. But I'm done being half-in and half-out on promotions that are presenting a very different product for an audience that presumably thinks very differently about wrestling across the board.

    "The worst moron is the one too stupid to realise they're a moron."

  25. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by PEN15v2 View Post
    In some other thread, you talked about how Pentagon took too long to take off his glove, and it bugged you. I fail to see how that same annoyance does not come into play when Otis is taking 49 seconds to drop an elbow.
    Ah, very simple actually.

    I assume you're talking about the Caterpillar into the elbow?

    In the case of Pentagon, he's stopping the action in his match dead, often literally telling his opponent to stop. Both guys are upright, face to face, and through the entire process of taking off gloves at no point does the other perfectly fine, upright, opponent not just dropkick him in the teeth.

    In the case of the Caterpillar, Otis has put his opponent down, usually with a pretty big impact move. He's a 300+ lb guy, so for him to put a guy down with anything could reasonably incapacitate them for long enough to hit his move.

    In both cases, guys are playing to the crowd. That's wrestling school 101. In once case, he's playing to the crowd while both he and his opponent are perfectly fine. In the other, he's doing it toward the end of the match after putting his opponent down.

    Also, he doesn't shout "Caterpillar" 572 times during his match, so it makes me less annoyed overall.

    I guess it's the difference between the People's Elbow after a spinebuster and...come to think of it I can't come up with another move where a guy just made his perfectly okay opponent stop dead and not fight him. Any help?

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    Scotty 2 Hotty, a lame bulldog face slam, followed by dancing like a monkey, and then the worm into a chop... Ugh.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PEN15v2 View Post
    Scotty 2 Hotty, a lame bulldog face slam, followed by dancing like a monkey, and then the worm into a chop... Ugh.
    I mean, yes and no. It was a little bit of a different time but as a finish for what's essentially a midcard comedy act, it's not the worst I've seen. Plus, Scotty was billed at 220-lbs. That would be downright big by today's standards. Having a guy take that 220-lbs of weight and drive you face first into the mat, then git you with a diving throat chop, it's not that unreasonable.

    If Nakamura used a bulldog to incapacitate a guy long enough to play to the crowd and get his yeaoh in before hitting the running knee I wouldn't bat an eye. Nor would I think it was particularly weird if someone started using the diving throat chop as a move.

    It's probably the combination of the two that makes it pretty lame (which I'm in agreement with). But for a midcard comedy guy who's not exactly beating top guys with it, it's not a huge deal. Now, if they'd decided to position Scotty as one of the company's top guys and he was pinning Austin with the Worm, that would have been pretty stupid, and I think Austin would have agreed.

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    I understand and agree. And it does put the Pentagon stuff in a worse light since he's been above the midcard in AEW so far. But it's a promotion that 75% of the matches are about the guys getting all their shit in, so I've usually lost interest by the time he's on.

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    I think stuff like that is what separates adult fans (long timers) from kid fans (newer). The vast majority of kids dont stop to think about the practicality of what is happening, so a guy taking 25 seconds to gingerly climb a ladder to grab what is on top just builds suspense more for them. Whereas an adult sits there and knows that this person isn't going to win, because they are taking too long.

    I imagine if adult us found ourselves traveling back in time to a point when we were kids, and we experienced the wrestling back then firsthand as an adult, we would realize the wrestling wasn't as great as we remembered it. We'd have most of the same gripes. Kids celebrate when Scotty 2 Hotty builds up to the Chop, they celebrate when Pentagon fires up- we are simply looking at it from aged eyes. It's hard for a company to hit both audiences, and in instances when they cannot hit both, they will aim for kids. Cause kids bring in more money.

    My brother doesn't enjoy WWE anywhere near as much anymore. Kind of like me. But he has 2 kids that love it. So he is still spending money on the product (live shows, shirts, games, Network).

    The thing is, a company like AEW should try to brainstorm all the ways their target audience disconnects with a wrestling product, and seek to fix those spots. If they are aiming at adults, the long build to a move doesnt work, the hands in pockets would have an opponent scheming, not playing into it. It maybe seems AEW hasn't picked an identity. Maybe they don't have the luxury of exclusivity. But the first wrestling company that aims purely at adults will hit a fucking gold mine imo.

    I kind of like the idea of standings, rankings, etc. It has been what piqued my interest in AEW, making me seek to watch the first few episodes on tv when they start up. I always thought suspense is written into sports. Tournaments are their own plot device. What transpires is often unique and interesting in itself. Pepper in some logic, continuity, and strong character work/development and you could have a hit on your hands. It's a shame to hear that AEW is taking maybe too many leaps in logic.

    Though I could see the no hands guy building up to a moment when suddenly he starts using his hands when he realizes he's not progressing without them, and subsequently sky rockets to the top of the company- that sounds amazing to me. I don't even think he sounds bad as is, unless he is winning all of his matches. That stretches suspension of disbelief too far unless he is an absolute ninja without them.


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    The two key messages so far, for the TL;DR crowd:

    1. Luchasaurus is dope as shit and should be AEW champion by May, 2020.
    2. Flips are good in context, but bad when extraneous.

    Actually, possibly 3:

    3. Wrestling shows should be built around an overarching 'theme' of wrestling which should (broadly) be adhered to - so no dickflips in Bloodsport, no MMA ground and pound in Chikara.

    Does that pretty much cover it? I'm not trying to be facetious, just seems to be a lot of points made around these core ones.

    For what it's worth, I kind of agree on 3, but think that you can be flexible within it - WWE, for example, wants to portray itself as being a sporting contest a lot at the moment and I think if you have someone coming in who is purely working a comedy angle it doesn't work. Unless they're Santino Marella. I think Orange Cassidy can work in a kind of comic relief but still a very good wrestler fundamentally role in AEW. It's comic, but not taking away from the overall feel of the show.

  31. #111
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    To that last point, it all really comes back to the point about thresholds. Obviously Santino and Orange Cassidy aren't past your threshold if you don't think they take away from the overall feel of the show, but there are going to be people - and I count myself among them - who feel that both do just that.

    It's funny that people bring up things like Scotty 2 Hotty, because what I've noticed is that some people see the craziness of the Attitude Era as a license to go still further, that there isn't much of a difference between what happened then, and some of the things that happen now. But what those people don't always get is that that isn't the only response. I often look back at things that I accepted as just fine back in 2000 that I can't take the same way now, and it's not just age, but that you can usually get away with going beyond what people will accept for a short time, before a lot of them will just mentally switch off or just go and do something else. In short, to appeal to fans like that you have to pull back a little bit, impose a bit more discipline on what you will and will not do, and let them build things up in their head again. But no one in wrestling seems willing to do that, and they'd rather take a chance on the idea that there are more people willing to along with the kind of thing we've been talking about over the last page or so, than by having an approach that might appeal to those that have been drifting out.

    "The worst moron is the one too stupid to realise they're a moron."

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    What was that NXT show, one of the early Takeover's (possibly even Arrival) where Too Much were the surprise challengers to The Ascension?

    Point being, the act didn't really 'fit' with the tone of the show, although it got cool nostalgia pops. A big part of that (for me) was that you had this really cool future looking show and then threw out a team from the year 2000 rather than have a shock tag team debut who pushed the then dominant Ascension to the limit and established themselves.

    Also, Viktor countered the worm by just grabbing Scotty's trousers and pulling him into the ropes.

  33. #113
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    Those cool nostalgia pops have always been a thing, can remember they used to wheel out Snuka pretty much whenever they were in New York back in the 1990s so the live crowd would pop. There's a way to do it and make it fit. Again, it's like anything else, most things conceptually can be done - it's about how much effort you are willing to put in to make it work for a wider audience, or if you're wanting to play to a niche (or gambling there's a bigger audience for said niche out there who just need to learn about what you're doing).

    I will say, though, that one of the problems about whether or not this works is that it's still the old thing - one of the few people still watching, who by definition has to be one of a hardcore, is not necessarily best placed to judge whether or not something will work for a wider audience. Too Cool getting nostalgia pops in front of a fairly self-selecting NXT crowd in 2014 doesn't really tell us a lot about whether or not this 'works', generally speaking.

    Now, I think it probably worked just fine in the context of the show - I'm just not sure I'd want to infer too much about whether or not it's really good model from what clearly has a bunch of asterisks next to it.

    "The worst moron is the one too stupid to realise they're a moron."

  34. #114
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    I have a theory on all of wrestling, we could call it a thesis perhaps, that encapsulates dick flips, OC, invisible hand grenades and where we currently are in the wrestling business as a whole that maybe one day I'll share.

  35. #115
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    Please do!

    "The worst moron is the one too stupid to realise they're a moron."

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    I was wondering if anyone else caught the first ever on NXT TV, British Rounds match they just had between Kassius Ohno vs Sid Scala?


    I found it to be entertaining. It was extremely logical. I thought it was booked smart after I thought about it for a bit. I would enjoy seeing one of those matches with two more even competitors though. Perhaps Jordan Devlin vs Tyler Bate.


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    Was it similar to the the Impact GRand Championship from a couple of years ago?

  38. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by PEN15v2 View Post
    Was it similar to the the Impact GRand Championship from a couple of years ago?
    No it's actually a bit different, but a great concept imo.


    -6 rounds
    -3 mins per round
    -to win you need to accumulate either 2 pinfalls, 2 submissions, or a KO. (No score cards, though I can't remember what would have happened if after 6 rounds a winner wasn't decided, I think it would have been sudden death/Over time rules until someone picked up a pin, submission, or KO)

    It kind of feels like a perfect Blowoff match, in that there pretty much has to be a definitive winner. Anyone can pick up a fluke pinfall or submission, but to get 2? Or a KO? You gotta thoroughly best your opponent.

    After watching it, I'm very open to watching British Rounds again. I'd hope they save it for big rivalries, but it could be a nice touch to bring it out maybe once or twice a year.

    It also has a nice caveat, in that if a round ends while a pinfall or submission is happening, it doesnt count. They used that in a round to build suspense (the 3 count came after the bell, so the ref waived off the pinfall win.) At first I didn't like that ruling, but it is logical, and a nice way to add suspense to it all.
    Last edited by Kleckamania; 2 Weeks Ago at 06:05 AM.


  39. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kleckamania View Post
    -to win you need to accumulate either 2 pinfalls, 2 submissions, or a KO. (No score cards, though I can't remember what would have happened if after 6 rounds a winner wasn't decided, I think it would have been sudden death/Over time rules until someone picked up a pin, submission, or KO)
    If these are real British rounds - or, to put it more properly, the Lord Admiral Mountevans rules - then it'd be a draw if there was no winner after the six rounds.

    Though I bet they haven't used all the rules, and have probably just taken the round format. Some would be very confusing to a contemporary audience, I'd wager.

    "The worst moron is the one too stupid to realise they're a moron."

  40. #120
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    You might be right, Prime. I think it may have been a tie if no winner after 6 rounds. I kind of glossed over that one part while they were explaining it.


    Anyways not a ton of note in the newest NXT UK episode. Piper had the match of the night, was a decent women's match. The other noteworthy thing was a backstage segment between Alexander Wolfe and Marcel Barthel. Barthel was injured and couldn't compete in his singles match, and Wolfe said he would take the match. But he cryptically warned Marcel. Sounds like a potential shake up in Imperium is brewing. Sad, honestly, as I like Barthel. They should boot the big bland baby, Fabian Eichner.


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