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  1. #121
    Mediocrity at it's finest kingzak13's Avatar
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    Dean Ambrose leaving WWE is a work.
    I find myself unsure of this. It's hard to fathom a big name voluntarily walking away from the WWE when they were still a big name. But based on all the reports I think Ambrose wanted to leave.

    I think we will see him back in the WWE one day, but at least not for the next year or so.
    I doubt we get Ambrose signing with AEW either, I think the way they gave him a big farewell was kinda like saying "we'll let you go, but please don't sign with anyone else, go have your fun on the indies, we'll be waiting when you get back"

    So ultimately, I reckon this is Fiction, but I doubt we see Jon Moxley on AEW or TNA or LU or anything like that.

  2. #122
    LOP's part time glass ceiling DynamiteBillington's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powder View Post
    Why do you consider Rollins and Bryan as Indie guys?
    Obviously this is subjective, but to me the Indie guys are the ones you hear lots of talk about on forums & other social media from fans of Indie promotions before they sign with WWE. When they sign, it's usually to a lot more fanfare than other acquisitions. More often than not they keep those Indie fans when they join WWE. As far as I can see, that is true of all the guys I mentioned, hence why I refer to them as Indie guys.

    It doesn't matter if they've been with WWE 10 years, if they still have those fans and that reputation, to me that's what gets them that label.

    Whether or not you like the label doesn't really matter, there may well be better terms that could be used, but I suspect I'm not alone in that general opinion.

  3. #123
    Administrator Prime Time's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DynamiteBillington View Post
    But yes, I am putting that side of the argument down as clear and defined facts. If I was arguing the opposite side of things, I'd put the other side of the story as the clear and defined facts. You have to define your facts in support of your argument. If I was speculating on the possibilities, I'd have those facts as 'maybes', but I'm not. I'm putting forward an argument with the facts in support of it.

    That doesn't rule out someone else coming along with opposing facts supporting the other side of the debate.

    Ah, I see where the confusion is now. We're not just arguing different things, we're arguing in different ways. Hard to say more without turning this into a introduction to philosophy class, but does explain the issue.

    There's a part of me that kinda hopes you are right in a way. It'd be more interesting than WWE just fucking a guy up until he wanted to leave. But.... well, I guess you know what I'm going to say so I'll leave it there.

    "The worst moron is the one too stupid to realise they're a moron."

  4. #124
    Feeling Minnesota Powder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DynamiteBillington View Post
    Obviously this is subjective, but to me the Indie guys are the ones you hear lots of talk about on forums & other social media from fans of Indie promotions before they sign with WWE. When they sign, it's usually to a lot more fanfare than other acquisitions. More often than not they keep those Indie fans when they join WWE. As far as I can see, that is true of all the guys I mentioned, hence why I refer to them as Indie guys.

    It doesn't matter if they've been with WWE 10 years, if they still have those fans and that reputation, to me that's what gets them that label.

    Whether or not you like the label doesn't really matter, there may well be better terms that could be used, but I suspect I'm not alone in that general opinion.
    Let me ask you this then.

    What is Steve Austin or Chris Jericho or Rey Mysterio?

    Austin was established in WCW, but got unceremoniously fired, found his voice in ECW, but obviously becoming who he is in the WWF.

    Jericho made his name in ECW, then more in WCW, but became much, much bigger in the WWE.

    Rey got US name recognition in ECW, then a major name in WCW, then even more in the WWE. So what is he?

    So are those guys WWE guys? Both guys brought in fans from ECW and WCW.

    And then the flip side...

    Hall and Nash. Are they WCW or WWF/E guys. Hall was a territory guy, but got exposure in WCW, so did Nash, then both left and made their respective names in the WWF, but then the obvious jump to WCW where they brought their fans...s what do you consider them?

    Again, I agree their is a level of subjectivity, but just because you had fans on the indies, does not make you an indie guy. Bryan and Rollins, but moreso Bryan became a household name in the WWE for about a decade each. Bryan and Rollins each had indie credibility, but were not lifelong indie guys.
    Last edited by Powder; 05-24-2019 at 11:16 AM.

  5. #125
    LOP's part time glass ceiling DynamiteBillington's Avatar
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    The main problem with any of the guys you questioned there goes back to the issue with comparing Eras. None of the guys you mentioned would really be considered Indie Guys. Whether they should be considered ECW, WCW or WWE is a tough one for me to answer. I've only ever been a WWE guy, the other two weren't really broadcast much in the UK so having had no exposure to those promotions (and not having read about them on the internet as that wasn't nearly as accessible back then), all of those guys to me are just WWE guys.

    And that's where subjectivity comes into play. To someone else, especially when it comes down to comparing Attitude or Territory Era guys in that way, each of those guys probably has a different answer. To me (and possibly most people in the UK and maybe anywhere except the US) all those guys are just WWE guys because it's all we know. We didn't have a Monday Night War, we just had WWE.

  6. #126
    Feeling Minnesota Powder's Avatar
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    And there is the rub. While there are a huge number of the IWC, and a huge number of indie fans, I would bet that most of the WWE fans do not know much about the indie scene. So their indie work is akin to you not knowing anything else. So they all could be considered WWE guys.

  7. #127
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    FICTION. As much as I would love for this to be a work (Dean is my favourite wrestler of the new generation) o just don't see this being a fact. I think Dean is one of those guys, like CM Punk before him, who knows his worth and felt like he was not getting the opportunities in WWE that he deserved. Therefore he took his ball and went home. Perhaps if the rumoured match at Wrestlemania were to happen - Roman Reigns vs Dean Ambrose for the Universal Championship - he might have felt a little more valued due to him getting a prominent spot, but it was not to be. I think with regards to how WWE handled Dean's exit, they wanted to leave on good terms with the hope that Dean will come back in the future. And I'm getting that's for a selfish reason as well. That selfish reason being to reunite The Shield somewhere down the line.

  8. #128
    Member #25 SirSam's Avatar
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    FICTION

    I love your idea so much Dyno but given their current creative mood I can't believe they would have the patience to keep him off TV a week let along over a month.

    Dean/Jon has always struck me as a guy who is driven by the rush of performing and the rush of being creative more than a guy who wants to be a squillionair. If he has been smart he will have already earnt enough money to last himself a lifetime so now he gets to be selective and chase what he is passionate about. Quite clearly WWE creative was not serving him as well as it could have so now his contract has ended he is going somewhere else where he can be fulfilled.
    Last edited by SirSam; 05-25-2019 at 05:39 AM.

  9. #129
    Mediocrity at it's finest kingzak13's Avatar
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    Well it looks like we've got the answer now.

  10. #130
    LOP's part time glass ceiling DynamiteBillington's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingzak13 View Post
    Well it looks like we've got the answer now.
    Guess so...

    Thats why I did this one 'live', I didn't have time to collate responses in the normal way before Double or Nothing and AEW was the most predictable destination if I was wrong.

    Did also consider doing it as a standalone column, but haven't had time to put the effort in lately.

  11. #131
    LOP's part time glass ceiling DynamiteBillington's Avatar
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    Apologies for leaving this alone for so long - I think this is the first time the thread has dropped off the first page? As the Boss Man might say, there have been some Hard Times lately.

    I enjoyed the debate that followed that 'Live' topic though - as I said in the last post, the idea for it was originally going to be a 'Bull From A Bulldog' column but I think it worked out well as a ForF. I particularly enjoyed the debate about who and what is a "WWE Guy" it sparked with Powder. There's probably a column there somewhere investigating the idea.

    Moving on, after this I only have one more topic lined up ready to go. I really need some inspiration to think of more, maybe you guys have some ideas? Especially topics that require some discussion and aren't too time based. Anything you can think of will be appreciated and consider though.


    Once the Fox deal for Smackdown ends the WWE will begin to exist only on the Network.

    SpinMaster: I think more and more wrestling is going to move to the Network over the course of the next decade. However, I do not believe Raw and Smackdown will be among them. With the constant move towards streaming services, there will always be a network looking for cheaper sports programs to fill out their time slots. Smackdown will find a new home, even if it winds up being some smaller cable network. This is FICTION.

    Anonymous: I wasnít even aware Alicia Fox was on Smackdown and she definitely doesnít have enough star power to cause them to lose their TV deal...
    This is FICTION. I think Smackdown will get a new TV deal fairly swiftly, even if it ends up switching nights again. I actually think the viewing figures arenít that pathetic compared with other shows at that time in that demographic and a lot of cable companies would bite your hand off to have live WWE on their list of shows.

    Burn11nMyLight: FICTION. While NXT is a great way to tease hardcore fans into keeping their Network subscriptions while the big brands fluctuate in quality, Smackdown makes so much money for WWE by being on TV that moving it to the Network would be financial malpractice. WWE Network isn't Netflix, and even Netflix couldn't make money solely on its original products, so WWE better keep plugging away on the ol' analog.

    Don Franc: FICTION. Smackdown has become as much a part of the WWE as RAW. It may not have the same prestige as the red brand but it is now a part of WWE's DNA. I've always enjoyed the blue brand more since the brand split and I feel that it does deserve it's place on TV. However, the other side of the coin is that with wrestling's decline in popularity in these modern times you have to wonder if a television network would even want to air wrestling. Even RAW for that matter! That's a rabbit hole I do not want to go down at this present time. Therefore, if WWE are still able to cop a TV deal for SDL then the blue brand won't be moving to the network.

    KingZak13: I think that really depends on whether they plan on keeping the brand split going or not. If SmackDown remains its own brand then it will need its own home and the Network isnít the best way to expose it. the network is what they can offer once they have you caught in their grips, and Raw is 100% not drawing in any new viewers to sell the network to.

    SmackDown is different to Raw in many different ways. The most notable being that SmackDown is actually watchable. If you only were to watch SmackDown, then it would offer a passable wrestling product. Raw is for dumb shit that Vince likes, such as men shaving each other or drag queens. Raw is a literal tumour on the wrestling world and scrapping Raw from your viewing schedule is the best thing to do as a fan. Having an alternate to that is essential to WWE.

    At this point I donít understand why people watch Raw, all I ever see on my Twitter is people complaining, week in, week out, the same complaints, the same people that just donít learn. I would describe Raw as being like domestic abuse, it keeps beating you and you still crawl back, people need to wake up to the reality of the situation. Raw is not watchable, and so long as you keep watching it will just get worse. Move on, there are plenty of other wrestling shows that wonít abuse your trust.

    SmackDown being on television is an important part of the WWEís process, it offers something that Raw doesnít. and keeping it that way is only going to benefit the WWE. If SmackDown does end up on the network both it and the WWE are going to suffer. Less importance due to being on the network being a primary concern, less viewers being inevitable and a whole plethora of other problems that I canít think of. Couple in how taking away a show would affect international TV deals for broadcasting WWE content, everything would go down.

    I am going to say this is Fiction, there is no rational reason why they should put SmackDown as a Network exclusive.

    Zak: FICTION
    Dog: Licked my hand, then got FACT and itís paper.

    MizFan: Absolute FICTION on this one. Someday TV will basically be dead but we're still a long ways away from the end, and until then content like WWE will be in demand because it's live and there's a whole lot of it.

    Prime Time: Iíll say FICTION, but itís not completely far-fetched. Iíd just need more of a sign before Iíd be willing to say I actually think itíll happen, but it doesnít stretch belief at all.

    Dynamite Billington: 5 years ago, I never believed things like Netflix would really take off. The WWE Network was nothing more than a rumour, with expectations not really going beyond it being a glorified version of their YouTube channel. Who am I to guess where modern technology will take us in the next 5 years?

    Iíll be discussing this concept again in another column (spoiler alert!), but when I look at what has happened in the music industry I see a parallel. In the past, a musicianís main source of income was album sales. The live shows existed to promote that album. With the way technology has forced the music industry to evolve, now musicians release new albums to promote their next tour. The income generated by album sales has shrunk so much due to online streaming that it has become impossible to live on sales alone. You want proof? Click Here.

    Television channels like Fox are currently overpaying WWE for fresh content to attempt to combat the growth of streaming services. I may not be able to see the future for certain, but given the options available to subscribers of those services itís hard to imagine that isnít the way forward. And thatís coming from someone who still buys CDs, despite streaming and downloads being the obvious choice in this day and age.

    I canít imagine that level of overpayment continuing beyond the current contracts. However, over the next 5 years WWE will have to change. If (as I will discuss elsewhere) they continue to follow the trends set by music, that indicates the future of WWEís income lies in their touring product, not necessarily their television product.

    Will we see those Television shows become solely a part of a streaming service? Definite Fact - all television will potentially go that way. Will that streaming service be the WWE Network? Maybe. I can see WWE still selling highlight shows etc to standard TV networks as a way of promoting the full shows on their own network, in much the same way their current model involves them selling Raw and Smackdown to the TV networks as a way of promoting the PPVs that are shown on the WWE Network.

    Iím going to go with a possible FACT for this one, but won't be surprised if they get a few more years out of another deal before it comes true.


    Final Score: It looks like The Dog and me have been outvoted by 7 votes to 2. For the time being, this shall be considered FICTION.
    Last edited by DynamiteBillington; 06-27-2019 at 08:21 AM.

  12. #132
    The Brain
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    It's you and dog vs. the world, Dyna!!

  13. #133
    LOP's part time glass ceiling DynamiteBillington's Avatar
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    The Dog is the only other person here with any sense

  14. #134
    Administrator Prime Time's Avatar
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    It's funny because Dyno and I have basically said the same thing here, but come to different final conclusions. Possible but not exactly likely, seems to be the gist of what we've both said.

    "The worst moron is the one too stupid to realise they're a moron."

  15. #135
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    I can honestly see this being a possibility one day. The age of streaming has dawned on us and even though it's already so big it's still in its infancy. TV is dying a slow death. Hell, the only thing I have a TV for is soccer/football!

  16. #136
    LOP's part time glass ceiling DynamiteBillington's Avatar
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    So yet again we ended up with a topic where only me and the Dog gave the right answer.....you people could learn a lot from Zak's dog.

    It's been a while since I sent out a couple of new topics, but haven't had many replies yet. I appreciate some of us have been busy with the Lion's Cup tournament, so I'll give you all a pass on that one but it would be good to get a few more responses before posting one of those new topics. Here's a spoiler though, the responses I've had so far include a long awaited come-back from someone....

    In the meantime, I have one topic left from the previous round of responses, so here goes:


    Within the next 5 years there will be NXT brands in almost every area with a indy wrestling scene.


    SpinMaster: Five years seems a little soon, so I'm going to say FICTION. I do think this will be fact within the next decade though. It will be a slow process but that is where the NXT brand is heading. I think they will start with some of the bigger areas, such as Germany, Mexico, and Japan. Then they will slowly begin to move into every single area that has a indy scene. This will be bad for the independents if Vince is in control, but it could help them thrive if Triple H is the one running things.


    Anonymous: I donít think this will happen. If the WWE is that thirstly to monopolise the world theyíll get it done, but I do think that their focus in the near future will have to be on the increasing presence of realistic competitors and not on world domination. Iím hoping the competition will force the WWE to fight, rather than to conquer. FICTION.


    Burn11nMyLight: FICTION, but it's not a huge stretch. NXT UK was pretty surprising and is pretty solid so far, but the UK(and I use the term VERY loosely when a Kiwi and an Austrian are the champion and #1 contenders in their division) but even if you fudge the borders a lot, there just isn't a rich history of wrestling in many places of the world like there is in the US and UK. WWE is pushing hard into India and China, but 5 years still seems too soon to build a show in those areas. South America? Africa? Yeah, this just seems more and more far-fetched once you dive into the details.


    Don Franc: FACT. NXT has proven to be a critically (Not sure if commercially) successful part of the WWE. And with their amount of crap they put on their main shows they need all the critical acclaim they can get. Besides, people treat NXT like a separate entity of WWE and I think they would want to capitalize on that by spreading NXT as far out as they can to combat the smaller independent promotions and to lure wrestlers away from them.


    KingZak13: An interesting one, I can definitely see more NXTís popping up, but as far as every area, that is a bit of a push.

    Letís just take a moment to think about everywhere there is wrestling, we already have a US and UK one, though realistically I can see another US performance center opening, on the opposite side of the country to the Florida one (someone who know US geography let us know what that is).

    I think the real question is going to be, NXT Brands or Performance Centers? Because NXT as a show is actually hard to get going, the UK Championship came out in early 2017 and the show only started late last year. By that speed, it means that any future NXTís being planned that start today wouldnít be seen until 2021.

    A performance center or WWE training facility is much more do-able, that is just a building, some equipment, some staff and then boom, you have a wrestling training building. One of those in the major Indy areas is an easy to accomplish task. Realistically that would be one in Japan, maybe Australia and mainland Europe, also probably one in Saudi Arabia based on their deal they got going.

    I think that setting up a performance center/training center in each of these areas is easily doable, but creating an NXT brand would not be feasible, both because the additional resources required and also the WWE schedule for fans. Just think about it, we have Raw, SmackDown, 205Live, NXT and NXTUK to watch currently, should another 3 one hour shows be added to an already packed schedule.

    So ultimately my answer comes down to there will not be a NXT brand like NXT UK, but there will be some sort of WWE presence in each of the major indy areas. Whether this counts as fact or fiction Iím not 100% sure, I guess Iíll put Fiction for the sake of having an answer

    Zak: FICTION.
    Dog: Instantaneous FACT


    MizFan: Vague question, almost every area has an indy wrestling scene of some kind. Are we going to see NXT Kentucky? NXT Russia? NXT South Africa? NXT Detroit, Michigan? I'm sure more NXT brands will pop up in time and have varying levels of success, but even if you narrow the definition of what areas we're talking about, I'm skeptical. I'll go FICTION here.


    Prime Time: This is a stronger FICTION, in my opinion. I think there has to be a very good reason for going into an NXT style relationship and think they are more likely to carry on the kind of relationships theyíve got going with EVOLVE, PROGRESS and others instead of opening more NXT promotions.


    Dynamite Billington: So weíve already got NXT, NXT UK and a rumoured NXT Canada. Iíve seen mention in the past about an NXT Germany as well. That tells me theyíre intending this to be something that grows. Everywhere with an independent scene though? Surely that means pretty much every country in the world? I donít see that happening. Especially with the news that a few existing Independent promotions are also going to start airing on the Network Ė essentially making them potential development promotions as well.

    What I do see happening, is a few more Performance Centres (and potentially Network shows) covering continents rather than countries. Maybe one more for Europe, one for the Far East, one for Central/South America perhaps.

    If that happens, thereís certainly a valid argument this becomes FACT Ė although I think the spirit of the question meant for the NXT brands to be national which I would have considered Fiction.


    Final Score:

    6-3 in favour of FICTION. I think it depends as always how people interpret a question and how they personally defined 'every area'.

    The most important thing though, is we obviously now know that Don has finally learned not to vote against Zak's dog.

  17. #137
    Mediocrity at it's finest kingzak13's Avatar
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    Wow, this kinda feels like a throwback considering how long ago we wrote these.

    I stand by what I said, Performance Center would be more of a fact, as a brand it's definitely Fiction.

    In my head, the main areas would be Mexico, a mainland Europe, Japan and one in either Canada or the more north USA, I just don't see all of those being started within five years.

  18. #138
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    Just a quick response to kingzac and his blurb

    ďLetís just take a moment to think about everywhere there is wrestling, we already have a US and UK one, though realistically I can see another US performance center opening, on the opposite side of the country to the Florida one (someone who know US geography let us know what that is).ď

    Florida is in the southeastern US. If youíre looking at the other side of the country, then youíre looking at either California, Oregon or Washington. While none of those states are bad per se (Iíve lived in Washington before and visited by California and Oregon), your issue involves the increased cost of living out there. Everything on the west coast is ridiculously more expensive than the southeast, especially the area of Florida theyíre in now. While Orlando is expensive due to being a larger city plus having Disney, Universal Studios, etc all in the vacinity, once you start moving away and out into the suburbs, it becomes much easier to afford life in general. Especially if youíre doing the whole room mate thing. To give an example, I live in Nashville which is still in the southeast region, and I live quite comfortably with my income. If I were to take that same income back to Seattle (Washington) Iíd be struggling. You can absolutely forget about places in California like LA or San Diego. I have a feeling thatís why they initially settled where they did... cost of living. The northeast where New York, Boston, Philadelphia, etc are located has the same high cost of living issues as the west coast. The southwest where Arizona, New Mexico and what-not are isnít as bad, but the climate is pretty rough due to being a lot of desert. The Midwest... Kansas, Nebraska, Oklahoma... nobody wants to live there. Those places suck. So if youíre talking about opening other PCs, youíre probably looking at the west coast or the northeast, and at that point... do you pay more for the adjusted cost of living versus the guys that live and train down in Florida? Doesnít seem very fair, I would think.

  19. #139
    LOP's part time glass ceiling DynamiteBillington's Avatar
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    Zak - yeah, it has been a while. Time hasn't been my friend lately, and what time I did have got put into doing the competition.

    Still waiting loads of replies on the new topics I sent out recently (including yours!) but hoping to get the next one posted the week after next once I'm back from a holiday. Would be good to get a few more contributions by then, but I'll go with whatever I've got when the time comes.

  20. #140
    The Brain
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    Wouldn't be shocked if WWE opened something in Southern California, to be honest. That's been a hot area for indy wrestling for a while, particularly with PWG.

    Dyna, you're always fighting the crowd with these! But I feel that's on brand for you, ready to take on the established ideas and question them. Always cool getting all these perspectives.

    I think I responded to everything you sent me, but if not remind me of what I missed!

  21. #141
    Mediocrity at it's finest kingzak13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by meandi View Post
    Just a quick response to kingzac and his blurb

    “Let’s just take a moment to think about everywhere there is wrestling, we already have a US and UK one, though realistically I can see another US performance center opening, on the opposite side of the country to the Florida one (someone who know US geography let us know what that is).“

    Florida is in the southeastern US. If you’re looking at the other side of the country, then you’re looking at either California, Oregon or Washington. While none of those states are bad per se (I’ve lived in Washington before and visited by California and Oregon), your issue involves the increased cost of living out there. Everything on the west coast is ridiculously more expensive than the southeast, especially the area of Florida they’re in now. While Orlando is expensive due to being a larger city plus having Disney, Universal Studios, etc all in the vacinity, once you start moving away and out into the suburbs, it becomes much easier to afford life in general. Especially if you’re doing the whole room mate thing. To give an example, I live in Nashville which is still in the southeast region, and I live quite comfortably with my income. If I were to take that same income back to Seattle (Washington) I’d be struggling. You can absolutely forget about places in California like LA or San Diego. I have a feeling that’s why they initially settled where they did... cost of living. The northeast where New York, Boston, Philadelphia, etc are located has the same high cost of living issues as the west coast. The southwest where Arizona, New Mexico and what-not are isn’t as bad, but the climate is pretty rough due to being a lot of desert. The Midwest... Kansas, Nebraska, Oklahoma... nobody wants to live there. Those places suck. So if you’re talking about opening other PCs, you’re probably looking at the west coast or the northeast, and at that point... do you pay more for the adjusted cost of living versus the guys that live and train down in Florida? Doesn’t seem very fair, I would think.
    I guess based on this info, the ideal would be a sort of in the northern middle of America, I had no idea about the cost of living issue, I figured that in California it makes sense but the other two come as a shock.


    Dynamite - I've got the questions and am working on them, hope we have another topic to go before we need them though, hope you have a nice holiday BTW.

  22. #142
    LOP's part time glass ceiling DynamiteBillington's Avatar
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    No, that's the last one until the new topics start coming out.

  23. #143
    LOP's part time glass ceiling DynamiteBillington's Avatar
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    Apologies to Zak, this topic is getting posted before he's got his response in - but it's got to be worth it for the special guest comeback appearance.....

    ROH and/or TNA will go out of business within 2 years of AEWís TV show starting


    TypeItInMaan: I'll say FICTION. I don't claim to know a ton about TNA or ROH, but both seem to have a niche audience and a new wrestling company's arrival doesn't necessarily mean the demise of either of these. TNA seems more likely to go out of business if the market becomes saturated, however.

    (DB: That's right, we actually have a Type sighting!!)


    Anonymous: Who gives a fuck? Itís a shame but both products arenít what they used to be or as relevant today. Theyíre lacking star power and any real value in the world of Wrestling. TNAs been going out of business for 10 years plus and keeps on regardless. ROH is more stable Iíd say. And if wrestling gets a boom from AEW I think theyíll benefit, not suffer.

    Wrestling gaining popularity benefits everyone. Other promotions will get interest if AEW attracts new audiences as theyíll check out the local scene and cheaper shows. So TNA and ROH will get more business from their house shows, not less. So this is FICTION. regardless of how well AEW does, both shows will trundle on insignificantly.


    MizFan: I'm gonna go with FALSE! Ring of Honor seems to be secure as a low level content provider for a corporation who is more or less satisfied with the level they're at, so I think they're safe. As for TNA, or more accurately Impact Wrestling, I also have to go with FICTION because I've been reading this question for the past 10 years or more and it hasn't come true yet! You just can't kill them!


    SpinMaster: These two companies seem to just continue going, sometimes in spite of their own dumb decisions, and for that reason it would be hard to imagine a world where they don't exist in some capacity. Impact is a phoenix, it keeps looking like it's about to die and then suddenly rises from the ashes and becomes a whole new product once again. You have to admire that ability to adapt. As for ROH it's been the same indy style since it's inception, and up until now, that has worked to their advantage. It has filled a void for the indy wrestling fan in an age when indy shows were not easily accessible. That time is no longer the reality we live in. The hardcore fan can now access dozens of wrestling promotions around the world. Through streaming services (that are much cheaper than Honor Club) and even on cable television. This indy style wrestling is now easier to find than ever before. The only reason ROH seems to be talked about right now is because they collaborate with NJPW. That collaboration will likely end soon, and NJPW will probably work with AEW instead (unless they still want to come to America themselves, which I don't believe they should at this time). For this reason I think there is a great chance of this being FACT. ROH will die within two years. As for TNA, they may have 5 names by then, and be 15 different styles of promotion, but they will still be trudging along through the trenches. When the end of the world comes the only things to survive will be cockroaches, Cher, and TNA.


    Dynamite Billington: These three promotions have a lot in common. They all have some sort of TV deal and theyíre all owned by people/organisations who could potentially invest significant sums of money into them in order to become what they all want to be Ė WWEís primary competition.

    TNA (or Impact Wrestling as they are now called Ė in the same way WWE still gets referred to by many as WWF, it will take time for those initials to disappear) came closest to achieving that goal. At one point, Impactís weekly TV rating was almost starting to catch up with Smackdown Ė and here in the UK due to a more accessible TV deal they actually had higher ratings than Raw. Despite that, WWE never genuinely considered them to be a threat and there was always talk that they could go out of business at any time. Today though, they appear to be stable under the current ownership. They arenít making the same mistakes they made previously Ė i.e. actively trying to compete with WWE. They may not be on the best channel for TV exposure in the US, but they still have good coverage internationally.

    ROH to the best of my knowledge have never made the mistake of trying to compete. If we compare things to the Monday Night Wars, they would be this generationís ECW Ė a solid fan base, a great proving ground for talent, and a company WWE have been prepared to support when needed. Their TV contract for America is solid due to the fact theyíre owned by the same company that airs their programming, but (speaking purely from a UK perspective) donít have any international coverage aside from online streaming. I believe theyíre happy with their current situation and will continue much as they have done for the foreseeable future.

    AEW however, are a totally new kettle of fish. Theyíve burst onto the scene with some major coverage and a billionaire owner who seems happy to throw his money at them in the hope of success. They also have what would appear to be a significantly better TV deal than either ROH or Impact Ė and here in the UK they will be the only promotion (including WWE) to air on a mainstream channel. Despite all that promise, we have to remember that (at time of writing), they are still a promotion that doesnít really exist. Sure, theyíve done a couple of shows, but until the regular programming starts they canít claim to be anything but a one hit wonder Ė and I canít help but be concerned that allowing the inmates to run the asylum has proven in the past to be a formula that doesnít work.

    However, they have some intelligent names on board, and Iím sure Tony Khan will monitor very closely how his investment is being spent. I believe if things donít go to plan, he will restructure the management to put more experienced minds at the helm and hopefully ensure success. Even so, they are still the start-up company and itís always during the first couple of years of operation a company is most likely to go under Ė it only Takes Khan to pull his investment rather than restructuring and everything falls over.

    Iím now reaching the point where Iíve written so much I could potentially have done this one as a standalone column (which is mildly annoying, I havenít done a Bull from the Bulldog for a while)Öso itís time to make a decision.

    ROH I believe to be safe. Theyíve never shown the ambition or stupidity to try and become anything other than what they are, and I think that philosophy will remain. Impact? Theyíve been going out of business since day one, but have always survived to see another day. Although theyíre always a candidate for shutting up shop, I believe their current philosophy and television deals should see them weather the storm.

    With all that said, there is a definite risk of over-saturating the market and although this may be an unpopular opinion, I believe the most likely promotion to go out of business within 2 years is actually AEW, making this one FICTION.



    Final Score:
    A few different arguments, but 5-1 in favour of FICTION seems pretty conclusive.


    Bonus Live Topic:
    Having seen this article on the main LOP site today I thought I'd go for another Live topic.

    Fact or Fiction: NXT will beat either Raw or Smackdown in the ratings at least once within 6 months

    What do you think?
    Last edited by DynamiteBillington; 08-28-2019 at 10:30 AM.

  24. #144
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    My gut instinct was to be quite skeptical of NXT jumping up so fast in the ratings, but thinking about it again I'm not sure. Hell, I'll chance it and go with FACT!

  25. #145
    Mediocrity at it's finest kingzak13's Avatar
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    Damn, I finished the write up yesterday and just had to get the dogs thoughts today.

    Well if you thought you had escaped my opinion on the topic, you are sorely mistaken.




    ROH and/or TNA will go out of business within 2 years of AEWís TV show starting


    The fact that TNA is still going remains a shock to me, every superstar that made it good has left at this point, itís not even the biggest wrestling promotion in Florida anymore. It is literally seems like a random selection of indy wrestlers at this point, and none of the good one because they all end up in WWE or Japan or AEW now, all the ones that you hear mentioned as someone that is wrestling on the card to no fanfare whatsoever.

    Ring of Honor are just unlucky here, they had tons of talented superstars come through their doors but they are always signed away to WWE or TNA typically. From what Iíve heard they seem to have had some issues lately and that is a shame, as a show I always looked at it as being a good tertiary wrestling show.

    As far as AEW causing trouble for them, that is a given, there are only so many hours in the week and if AEW lives up to the hype (physically impossible thanks to the indy hype machine, but even still) then it will likely take priority over both these two brands. So a drop would be expected for both of these two.

    I guess the big question is how we are defining out of business. If we are defining it as no longer having a television show, then I could quite easily see them not being renewed with whomever the fuck they are with now. With both WWE and AEW on offer, one of these two is not getting resigned because who the fuck would want the fifth most known wrestling show.

    If the two shows were smart, they would plan for a reduction, become a normal independent show, that would not only reduce costs and would allow them to progress on with something that will still work, people that go to live wrestling will not have a diminished interest since typically you get maybe a show or two a year in most places.

    So I guess what Iím saying is that I doubt they go completely out of business, but I do think they are going to be changing the sort of business they are in from a TV based one to a more tour/show based one. so I guess Iím gonna say itís both here.

    Zak: simultaneously Fact and Fiction
    Dog: quickly choose fiction

  26. #146
    LOP's part time glass ceiling DynamiteBillington's Avatar
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    That's an interesting take on it, glad you shared. Does TNA actually do any touring? I thought they were solely a TV show these days?

  27. #147
    LOP's part time glass ceiling DynamiteBillington's Avatar
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    Sorry for letting this slide for so long. The last few months have been a bit of a nightmare - not in the scary sense, I just haven't had any spare time being busy at work and in my private life. And every time I think I see the light at the end of the tunnel, it turns into a train coming the other way....

    I don't mean any of that in a negative way though, normally when life get like this it's because bad things are happening and they aren't. There's just a lot of things.

    So anyway, this is the last Fact or Fiction Topic I have lined up ready to go. It's been so long since you guys provided your input, you've probably forgotten all about it and I apologise for that. Maybe reading back your replies so far down the line will make it more entertaining?


    Before getting on to the main post though, can I just ask for any ideas for future topics you may be able to think of? I've got a couple of potential ideas brewing I haven't fully decided on yet, but any suggestions will be much appreciated.


    Within 12 months, either Raw or Smackdown (potentially both) will feature a storyline putting Heyman/Bischoff against the McMahons/HHH in a battle for authority

    Note: You'll observe that it's so long since we all wrote this that Bischoff is no longer in the role being discussed. Wherever you see his name, read Bruce Pritchard

    Dynamite Billington: I guess this one depends exactly what the Heyman/Bischoff role is. At time of writing, they arenít an on-screen authority figure. Bischoff has barely started his role and Heyman, although there are signs of his influence, is still only the advocate for Lesnar as far as storylines go. A lot can happen in 12 months though. Given the Heyman/Lesnar relationship as well as Vinceís obsession with controlling Raw, I donít think it happens there. Smackdown though? I think thatís more likely. Once Bischoff has settled in to his behind the scenes role, it would make sense for him to be used on screen in some way as well Ė and the only real option for him would be as the authority figure. As soon as that happens, I can see some sort of storyline taking off. The key thing though is I donít see it happening within 12 months, so Iím going to tentatively go with FICTION.

    TypeItInMaan: This sounds like a cool idea but I'll go FICTION here. I think we've been there and done that with this authority stuff. My guess is that Heyman and Bischoff's roles will be kept out of storyline, as they should be. I would think their finger prints will be (and have been) all over new storylines, but having them in an on air capacity seems like a backwards move, especially if that is to glorify the McMahon's/HHH and bury them.

    Anonymous: FICTION. Itís happened too often. People are exhausted by it and thereís really no appetite for it. Heyman and Bischoff will be on TV at some point but thereís no need for it and I believe theyíve started learning their authority figure lessons. Shane McMahon will still be shitting all over Smackdown and Raw though.

    MizFan: I have to say FACT on this one, because the McMahons will surely attach themselves to anything remotely hot and with the Heyman/Bischoff hiring decisions getting some positive attention for the WWE, it's very on brand for the company to move them onscreen and try to milk it to the max. Whether it'll be effective or not, well, only time will tell!

    SpinMaster: I don't need to talk about this one, or bother trying to explain why. History will tell you the answer, and act as my proof. This is FACT.

    KingZak13: Iím just gonna assume we are going a year to next SummerSlam since I canít remember when they were hired or when this question was asked.

    The main thing here is whether Heyman and Bischoff are actually acknowledged on TV as having been given a job backstage. The only reason we know is because of the overly intrusive nature of the internet being able to track who works for any wrestling company. They havenít been hired on screen yet, Heyman has even been hanging around with Brock and for all the appearances, Heymanís new position hasnít been acknowledged anywhere outside the internet. Brock isnít even getting a rematch for the Universal title, and surely that would be something Paul Heyman would do if he was in a position of power.

    While it is completely possible that they are brought on to television, I think they are both set to be more of a creative consultant sort of role, not in an active onscreen role. If anything, I think the most likely scenario for our next dose of authority related storyline is probably going to be Shane trying to take control of both brands, and even NXT, leading to him facing off against Triple H at WrestleMania. That is currently my expected scenario; I donít see Bischoff or Heyman being brought onto television in a role beyond what they are currently doing. So this is a very easy Fiction for me.

    Zak: FICTION
    Dog: FICTION


    Final Score:
    Not quite unanimous, but 5-2 in favour of FICTION means we obviously have some optimism left that WWE have finally got the message that we don't want to see this story played out again.

    I actually think it's even less likely since the question was raised - having never played that role on TV before (to my memory at least) I think Brother Love as GM has a lower chance of happening than when Bischoff was in the role.

  28. #148
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    FICTION. I think WWE knows, or should know by know, that Authority storylines have been done to death for years upon years now. At some point in time a specific story has to be put down. Now WWE isn't known to do this, but with the decrease in viewership I think they should seriously consider keeping the fans that they have left happy.

  29. #149
    HUGE Member TheLAW's Avatar
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    I'd go fiction here especially with Pritchard being in that role now. Bruce doesn't have the charisma to take on Heyman and at the end of the day, Heyman has Lesnar. Game over any day of the week. Plus I sincerely hope that the McMahons have figured out they don't belong on TV anymore. Triple H doing all the promo work for the NXT portion of Survivor Series this year has been a mistake imo. The main champions of each brand should be doing the talking here. I'd even accept Brock talking.

  30. #150
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    Yeah, Bischoff being booted so quickly has me changing my answer to FICTION, even if they looked for someone to replace him. I think there's a chance they'll still try to do something onscreen with Heyman's role, but I wouldn't bet the farm on it.

  31. #151
    Mediocrity at it's finest kingzak13's Avatar
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    My thoughts remain the same here. Though thankfully the idea of Shane McMahon trying to take over has been stopped and I am incredibly glad. As a whole I think we need a break from the Authority/GM storylines, The only time we haven't had something of that sort going since The Authority's inception was the time from the start of the draft until SummerSlam 17. I look forward to a break from them.

  32. #152
    LOP's part time glass ceiling DynamiteBillington's Avatar
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    As the Rumble is rapidly approaching, I figured it was time to get the Fact or Fiction thread kicked off for the year with one of the Rumble themed topics I circulated a while ago.


    The 2020 Royal Rumble will be a repeat winner


    DynamiteBillington: OK, to get this one, you have to predict a winner and then see if heís won it before. There have been recent rumours that a previous winner is currently being planned to do it again, but given the reaction that particular winner got I donít know if theyíre brave enough to try it. When the crowd are so pissed off even The Rock gets booed, you know something isnít right. OK, so Roman has been getting good reactions lately since he came back from his time off, but I honestly think all that goodwill could be lost if they went there again despite the rumours from a few weeks ago.

    If I rule him out, who is left? Iíve thought for a long time now that the favourites to win the 2020 Rumble are probably Drew MacIntyre and Baron Corbin, and as Corbin won King of The Ring my money is solely on MacIntyre. That makes this FICTION.

    I guess the elephant in this particular room is the Womenís Rumble. The topic doesnít specify which Rumble it refers to. As theyíve only done it a couple of times, the chances of a repeat winner are a lot slimmer, but Iím currently predicting someone from NXT will win this one so itís FICTION for the women too.


    Anonymous: FACT. An easy one to start with. WWE has been itching to push Reigns to the moon for a while now and the temptation will be too much at the Rumble. Heíll win, probably go on to fight Lesnar and the audience will groan a collective sigh at the predictability of it all. Reigns wins lol.


    Don Franc: FACT. I just don't see any fresh-faced wrestler winning their first Rumble. There are only three people that haven't won a Royal Rumble that could win and I wouldn't bat an eyelid if they did. Strowman, Styles and Bryan are the only wrestlers that haven't won the Rumble who even stands a slight chance. However, I'm not too sure if WWE will pull the trigger on any of them if they don't have something good for them to do on the road to Wrestlemania as the Rumble winner. I'm hoping Daniel Bryan wins the Royal Rumble but I wouldn't be at all surprised if Roman Reigns ends up winning the Rumble. The way WWE will book it is him finally overcoming cancer by winning the Rumble and winning the big one at Wrestlemania.


    Mizfan: I don't feel like I have a clue about this one but I'm gonna venture to vote FACT because WWE loves to keep going back to the same wells. Completely off the top of my head, I'm gonna guess Reigns or Rollins, because isn't that usually how it goes?


    Kleckamania: FICTION. I don't believe Seth Rollins, OR Becky Lynch will repeat as Royal Rumble winner this year. If anything, I see Becky holding the women's title probably all the way to Wrestlemania, and the Women's rumble winner will just be whoever beats her for it. As for Seth? I think he has no current place in the title pictures. I see Roman Reigns or Braun picking up that win personally- they gotta push a fresh face into title contention.


    TheLAW: Gotta go with FICTION.

    The 2020 Rumble is going to be mighty interesting this year. I think that we are going to see this push for the NXT Roster continuing and they are going to strap the rocket to someone from that brand. The question for me is whether or not they do the "Challenge any Brands Champion," gimmick. My money is on Keith Lee because that's easily who it should be. He would challenge whoever is leading the NXT Brand. I could easily see Riddle winning and Challenging Brock, or even WALTER if they figure out how to book him. No way they waste what's been a shit year with a Roman or Rollins win... I might regret that


    Prime Time: FACT. I don't have the most informed perspective on this anymore but from a distance it'd look pretty out of left-field if it wasn't a repeat winner at this point. And as I understand it, the current favourite would mean it was a repeat winner.


    Kingzak13: The big worry for this one is Roman Reigns getting the win here. There have been rumours going round of Roman being a challenger for one of the titles at WrestleMania and that means that a rumble win is very much possible.

    Romanís history with the rumble is well documented, he won the 2015 to massive boos and has since become the biggest heel in Rumble history, 2017 when the hate had died down a lot, he still was being booed, 2018 even with The Shield reunited at the time and him being actually over to a degree, Roman still got booed in the end of the rumble.

    Roman is the most likely candidate for the win, and the rest of the list of potential winners is just as depressing, Seth Rollins getting the back to back wins, Shinsuke Nakamura, Cena or Orton winning to face Brock again. Sheamus or Rey Mysterio could also win. Letís be honest none of those ideas sound remotely exciting, but then again after a shit year of booking for the male roster, what is to be expected.

    Usually there is an inkling on who could be the winner and right now I canít see anyone winning and feeling like a satisfying ending. If WWE want to be original they could just have the ring break and everyone falls out the ring and just call the whole thing off.

    Honestly, Iíve given it a couple weeks to marinate and there still isnít an interesting option, Kevin Owens or Braun Strowman are the best shots at non-repeat winners, or wort case scenario, Velasquez or Fury show up and a filthy non-wrestler gets the Rumble win. Roman winning isnít great but it lightyears better than those two. I think we are likely looking at a repeat winner for the rumble. So it a bit of a disappointing fact.


    Zak: FACT
    Dog: Took a quick nibble of the question, before going for a lightning fast FICTION.


    Final Score:
    5-4 in favour of FACT. Not exactly conclusive, but the fact so many of us have picked Reigns in our Fantasy Rumble teams speaks volumes - whether we think he'll win or not, we're obviously all expecting him to go the distance.

  33. #153
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    Roman Reigns is strong contender but WWE need to be extremely careful with how they go about having his win. Though I think Bryan really deserves a win at this point.

  34. #154
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    I think Reigns might actually be in a good position to win? He hasn't been pushed into the main event in a while, though the fact that they decided not to give him another shot even though he had the built in "beat cancer" feel good story might indicate they don't have faith in him anymore. Or maybe they were saving it for Rumble time?

    Fun to see us split so evenly. Guess it shows if nothing else the Rumbles will be a bit unpredictable this year!

  35. #155
    LOP's part time glass ceiling DynamiteBillington's Avatar
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    As the Rumble is now behind us, I figured now is as good a time as any to post this one as I'm having a quiet afternoon at work whilst I wait for the Test Team to do their job.

    Without further ado:


    Braun Strowman will break the total Royal Rumble eliminations record before he retires


    Note - all responses were written long before this year's Rumble.

    DynamiteBillington: I mean he has to doesnít he? I donít know the stats, but heís already had a lot of eliminations and potentially has a long career ahead of him. Much like the current record holder Kane, I also think heíll fail to win a Rumble. The Ďunstoppable giantí type character has rarely been victorious in that particular match. Itís too good a visual to see them dominate and get numerous eliminations before you get the Ďplucky underdogí type character getting the fluke elimination. FACT


    Anonymous: Strowman has started to become a mirror image of the Big Show. Constant failure when it matters. And like Ryback before him, WWE failed to strike when the iron was hot. Right now, it would be ludicrous for Strowman to break the elimination record. Heís done nothing for ages and is basically as relevant as A Halloween decoration in January right now. This is total FICTION as the ball has been dropped and thereís no way to pick it up again.


    Don Franc: Well, according to WWE he already did. Apparently, The Great Royal Rumble in Saudi Arabia counts as an official Royal Rumble and Strowman holds 13 eliminations under his belt. But we all know real Royal Rumble matches only happen at the Royal Rumble PPV. Therefore, official or not, Roman Reigns still holds the record. Anyway, I go FICTION. If WWE are ever going to truly give Strowman a push and have him win the Royal Rumble then only I think he will stand a chance of breaking the elimination record. But WWE are so hot and cold with Braun Strowman that I'm not sure if that's ever going to happen.


    Mizfan: Gonna say FICTION on this one since WWE has seemingly already moved beyond Strowman despite him looking like a top prospect with a lot of crowd support at one time. I'm still not over the lame way Reigns broke the record either, if your elimination total includes Nash, JBL, and freakin' El Torito in 2014 you should get an asterisk!


    Kleckamania: FACT. Most likely barring injuries. I mean Braun is this generations Andre The Giant/Big Show, so as long as he stays healthy he will dominate in spots like that for many years to come in order to both keep him as a major threat, and to transfer his heat occasionally to another wrestler who needs the current push.


    TheLAW: Braun, Braun, Braun, when are they going to fix you? One of the greatest character assassinations in the history of WWE. I don't want to say FACT to this, but you never know with Strowman. I could easily see them giving him the nod by one or two eliminations just to make sure he loses in the final six and then teaming with boxer douche to beat the Viking Raiders. Sounds like I just predicted the future, doesn't it?


    Prime Time: Seems plausible enough. The guy is 14 behind Kane and he could well enter another five of these things, no trouble. I'll say FACT because it'd take him leaving the WWE early to stop it, I reckon.


    Kingzak13: For a point of reference, Braun is currently at 30 total eliminations while record holder Kane is up there with 44. So unless Braun is getting the shaft this year he should move up to about 34/35 mark with the 2020 rumble. I think at this point it is pretty much impossible that Kaneís record wonít be broken, the big question though is who will break it.

    Joining Braun at 30 eliminations is Roman Reigns who is also likely to have a good showing this year at the rumble. So it is pretty much a race between those two to see who can manage 15 more eliminations first. Or maybe Big Show can show up and eliminate 14 wrestlers, that would be fun to watch. (Note: I wrote this as a joke before Big Show returned, now Iím scared)

    I guess the big challenge here is who gets their first, will it be Roman or Braun, both are on the same score and realistically will be scoring big this year. I think Braun is probably going to be the one to get there first, but I think he and Roman are gonna end up going back and forth the rest of their careers with it. so this is FACT


    Zak: FACT
    Dog: A somewhat hesitant FACT


    Final Score: Despite a couple of guys getting confused about which record was being discussed here, we've come to a final score of 6-3 to FACT. I think Zak's comment sums it up - if Strowman doesn't do it, Reigns probably will. And as Strowman did indeed get well and truly shafted this year, it's currently looking like Reigns is the main favourite.

  36. #156
    Mediocrity at it's finest kingzak13's Avatar
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    Strowman got completely shafted this year. it' wasn't great for Reigns either, he only got two more. We've still got a while before the record is broken.

    Also

    Mizfan: Gonna say FICTION on this one since WWE has seemingly already moved beyond Strowman despite him looking like a top prospect with a lot of crowd support at one time. I'm still not over the lame way Reigns broke the record either, if your elimination total includes Nash, JBL, and freakin' El Torito in 2014 you should get an asterisk!
    In fairness, Kane's record elimination run included The Honky Tonk Man, Crash Holly and Drew Carey. you're never gonna get a good list of eliminations, there's always gonna be some fodder.

  37. #157
    LOP's part time glass ceiling DynamiteBillington's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingzak13 View Post
    In fairness, Kane's record elimination run included The Honky Tonk Man, Crash Holly and Drew Carey. you're never gonna get a good list of eliminations, there's always gonna be some fodder.
    So according to Wikipedia, Lesnar actually tied with Strowman's record of 13 eliminations (although wiki actually has one of Strowman's eliminations being shared with Lashley so he only got 12.5 in my opinion). His list:
    Elias, Eric Rowan, Robert Roode, John Morrison, Kofi Kingston, Rey Mysterio, Big E, Cesaro, Shelton Benjamin, Shinsuke Nakamura, MVP, Keith Lee, Braun Strowman.

    Some may not exactly be main event, but I don't think any of them are pure fodder in the way Kane & Reigns set the previous records.

  38. #158
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    I'll have y'all know that Drew Carey eliminated himself! But yes, Kane did eliminate his share of semi-jobbers. But it's better than throwing out geriatric commentators!!

    Yup, I definitely misunderstood which record you meant. I probably would have switched my vote if I'd been thinking about the other record, just because Braun feels like the type who WWE will always give a few eliminations to even if he's never going to win a Rumble.

    I can't believe there's a bigger chance of Baron Corbin winning a Rumble sometime in the future than Strowman...

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