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Thread: WCW

  1. #201
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    Yeah like I said, it's less the interference and more that there was interference for no reason I felt. I have no problem with it when it makes sense, something I thought Lucha Underground did a really good job handling in season three. But when it's a match like this when Russo gets involved for no reason or when Tessa Blanchard gets involved in Daga-Laredo Kid for no reason (like she did last week), that's when it takes away.

    And dammit mizfan. I worked so hard on those Sting jokes and you come in here and no sell them. How very Sting vs. Ric Flair of you!


  2. #202
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    Only because Luger no sold it first!

  3. #203
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    And that's why Luger and Sting own the gym together.


  4. #204
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    Best Luger & Sting team match besides the insanely good Steiner one in '91? I think the Harlem Heat match at Superbrawl '96 is pretty good. Love their partnership during that period, more for the character stuff than the in ring but they had good stuff in both.

  5. #205
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    I will never, NEVER understand why no one ever seemed to try a pairing like that Luger/Sting pairing from 1995 to 1996. They were tremendous, with Sting being the babyface to end all babyface and Luger being the heel that managed to cheat without Sting noticing. Seems like it would be the perfect angle to replicate and yet the only thing even close to it that I can remember is the Matt Hardy/MVP team, and even then those guys hated each other. Otherwise I can't think of another team where one guy was a face, the other guy was the heel and they got a long despite the differences.


  6. #206
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    Speaking of WCW greatness, I dug this up this weekend and loved it. One of the most underrated and awesome pairings in WCW!


  7. #207
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    Angle/Benoit had shades of that too.

  8. #208
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    Angle/Benoit weren’t playing the best friends roles like Sting/Luger, though. If anything, Angle/Benoit laid the groundwork for a team like The Bar.

  9. #209
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    Recently watched Starrcade '91, so getting up there now and soon be able to go back to the weeklies when we reach the Saturday Night's on the Network.

    "The worst moron is the one too stupid to realise they're a moron."

  10. #210
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    Ah, I love those old Starrcades.

    Can I ask a question of those with better knowledge of WCW, particularly behind the scenes at the time, than myself?

    I've just watched the return of Ric Flair from late 1998, and it's got me to wondering - were there ever plans in place to have the Horsemen end the run of the nWo?

    Obviously they did the 97 WarGames, with the Hennig turn in it, but that whole bit seemed to reset the Horsemen as a challenger for the nWo, with Flair vs Bischoff and so on. But they never followed through on that, did they? Seems like a really easy set up for running the end of nWo and the victory of WCW, to me, which is why I wonder if it was ever considered.

  11. #211
    Administrator Prime Time's Avatar
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    I don't believe I've ever heard mention that was considered, though someone might have more info. My understanding, though, is that during the time you're talking Bischoff still had the end goal of doing a 'brand split', so that the NWO would eventually control Monday Nitro and the WCW guys would be on Thunder. I think it's only... I dunno, the build to Starrcade? When he starts to abandon that idea. So it doesn't seem to me like the idea of beating the NWO was on the cards if they were still pencilled in to take over Monday Nights.

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  12. #212
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    My understanding is no, the horsemen were never meant to end NWO. As Prime mentioned, Bischoff was basically forced into a second show based on the success of Nitro. He argued (correctly as it turned out) that this would stretch their resources to the point where it would be detrimental to the product. However he had no option and so plans turned to siphoning off NWO to become it's own entity. However I think (not sure though) that this idea was quite short lived, for a variety of reasons and so it just became another show. Sting defeated Hogan, but the NWO remained a stable for another 6 months before splitting into NWO Black and White and NWO Wolfpac.



  13. #213
    Watching Savage and DDP from Great American Bash. Kimberly comes out in pink, smiling and Diamond cuttering. Buffer announces her and says, "her beauty's been seen all over play boy" and her face drops.

    Real early Me Too moment -- real early Me Too moment...

  14. #214
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    I still think Buffer is one of the biggest wastes of money WCW ever paid out for, and that covers a lot of ground. Watching through the WCW PPVs I got sick to death of his rambling, stream of consciousness intros, spouting random facts off a cue card without seeming to have a clue or a care about who he was talking about. Give me Gary Michael Cappetta!

  15. #215
    Senior Member Gooner's Avatar
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    Totally have the opposite opinion! Haha, now granted, value for money, no. But he made every main event feel that much bigger.



  16. #216
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    That's certainly what I remember from back then. Definitely added a certain scale to their stuff, when you'd just seen him doing an Evander Holyfield fight and there he was introducing their main event.

    "The worst moron is the one too stupid to realise they're a moron."

  17. #217
    I couldnt stand him when I was young and watching him...he had name value and the lets get ready to rumble was iconic. But his introductions were awkward. I remember watching clash of the champions Flair/Hogan match he couldnt call the finish right to save his life.

  18. #218
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    I definitely thought he added something at first, but the more I watched it the more out of place he seemed. I remember watching one Roddy Piper entrance, and Buffer just went on and on about Piper's "legendary kilt", and I'm thinking... did Buffer just see the guy he's introducing wears a kilt and decide to talk about it for a huge chunk of his intro? Does he just see random objects and start rattling on about them until it's time for his catchphrase?

  19. #219
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    For some reason, that just reminded me of the scene in Anchorman when Brick says “I love lamp”, and Ron Burgandy asks “Brick, are you just looking at things in the office and saying that you love them?”

  20. #220
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    That is exactly what I feel like Buffer is doing sometimes! Perfect reference!!

  21. #221
    Just watched a random horsemen/NWO match and Buffer decided to announce the wrestlers finishing moves while they came down the aisle. Random dude. Like most in WCW, I imagine he just did what he felt like doing.

  22. #222
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    Here's the thing - even back then, it was widely acknowledged that he wasn't as good as Finkel on the other side. But that didn't really matter, the reaction was still 'holy shit, they've got Buffer, they're the big time', even as people were saying he wasn't as good as Finkel and wasn't as good as he was at the boxing. It's one of those deals where the perception was far more important than whether or not it was 'good', although obviously that's not something that'll have registered for every last viewer, and nor will it come across at all well on tape a generation later.

    "The worst moron is the one too stupid to realise they're a moron."

  23. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prime Time View Post
    Here's the thing - even back then, it was widely acknowledged that he wasn't as good as Finkel on the other side. But that didn't really matter, the reaction was still 'holy shit, they've got Buffer, they're the big time', even as people were saying he wasn't as good as Finkel and wasn't as good as he was at the boxing. It's one of those deals where the perception was far more important than whether or not it was 'good', although obviously that's not something that'll have registered for every last viewer, and nor will it come across at all well on tape a generation later.
    Nailed it. It was all about perception. Having a special announcer for the main event added something. If WCW had their own name to do it, like the Fink, it would have likely been better. As it was, I think it was a waste overall.

  24. #224
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    Fair enough, I get the appeal. It even worked on me, at first. But man, the closer you look at the intros the guy does, the more ridiculous they become. I guess the upside is it's easy to tune out the actual words and just hear that famous voice booming in the background.

  25. #225
    Yeah, the reasoning behind Buffer was clear, and I'm sure in the short term it helped. But if they were able to get a big audience and make a truly talented wrestling announcer famous, who knows how it'd of worked out longer term. I thought Cappetta had an exciting voice, but they let him go. A lot of talent WCW thought wasn't getting it done ended up being part of the force of the attitude era: Jim Ross, Mick Foley, Steve Austin. Turned out they just needed the right creative and the right lime light. Maybe, Capetta would have become an iconic voice in the right era with the right audience. But WCW was always looking for name value in everyway to build them, rather than building names.


    On the other hand, Buffer's counterpart was Dave Penzer. I thought Penzer was pretty bland. So might need the name value for the main events if you're going to go with Penzer.

  26. #226
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    Yeah, Penzer never grabbed me as much. But at least I believed he knew the names of the wrestlers without using a cue card!

  27. #227
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    Listening to the suite of Conrad Thompson podcasts and he's doing a fair amount of early 2000 WCW right now to mark 20 year anniversaries, which a) reminds me how very old I am and b) also reminds me of how bad WCW was in late 99 and early 2000. Hearing Bischoff and Schiavone recount some of the terrible early 2000 stuff is great. Bischoff continues to point out he wasn't there, so they're doing watch along stuff, similar to the format Thompson does with Schiavone. I don't remember Thompson doing any New Blood stuff with Bischoff - I need to hear Biscoff defend making the old guys holding on to their spots the faces.

  28. #228
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    I'm watching through Nitro and I'm in late '97, and it's so great. Hard to believe it's going to be nearly unwatchable in just a couple years.

    Found some great stuff on B and C shows in '97 as well. Here's one to check out:


  29. #229
    Administrator Prime Time's Avatar
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    When I saw that WWE were making some of their back catalogue available during the Coronavirus, for the briefest of moments I toyed with the idea of giving my WCW rewatch another spin. Alas, literally all of the stuff I was likely to watch is still behind the paywall. And having cut the cord a few months back I'm not ready to cross that bridge again, nor am I particularly willing to go searching to try and piece things together from other online sources.

    Perhaps one day. It could be very hit and miss in the time I'd gotten up to - I really liked the Crockett era stuff but I'd gotten beyond that into early-1990s WCW. There's plenty of time when you'll be watching something in the midcard and you'll realise they are either using second-tier talent, or green guys before they're fully seasoned, because the money was so much better for anyone Vince really wanted if they went North. But man, but when it was good, it was really very good.

    "The worst moron is the one too stupid to realise they're a moron."

  30. #230
    That answers my question whether or not I wanted to go and check out the free network or not. Was going to go pick the bones of some of the older stuff, too.
    See the latest of my Ric Flair saga click here. http://lordsofpain.tv/showthread.php...acock-(Part-2) View my story inspired by colorful wrestlers I've come across in my fandom. http://lordsofpain.tv/showthread.php...-the-Challenge

  31. #231
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    Yeah, they've only opened up most of the WWE ppv catalogue and recent tv stuff.

    Not criticising because they didn't have to even do that. But still, it does nothing for me.

    "The worst moron is the one too stupid to realise they're a moron."

  32. #232
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    For sure the worst stuff!!

    Just finished watching through all of Nitro (and most of Worldwide) for 1997 and came up with a big list of who came off best in what was perhaps WCW's best year ever, based solely on how much I enjoyed what they produced in the ring:

    50.Hollywood Hogan
    -Yeah, yeah but I think he deserved to make the list. I liked the stuff with Luger in particular. His matches always did feel like a big deal, and he did some very good stooging when he wanted to.

    49.Wrath
    -The former Adam Bomb benefited from tagging with the more talented Mortis (Chris Kanyon) but did alright for himself as well. I'm a sucker for big, powerful wrestlers.

    48.High Voltage
    -I'll throw Kenny Kaos and Robbie Rage together here, and I'll say I actually found this team quite underrated. Big agile guys who could do more than you might expect.

    47.Akira Hokuto
    -WCW's women's division didn't make much of a splash, but they had a few really good matches and most of them involved this incredibly talented joshi wrestler.

    46.Villano V
    -One of a slew of luchadors who had various good showings, though he was much more on the sidelines than his brother IV.

    45.Lizmark Jr
    -More luchadors! He had a match with Flair on Worldwide, which was kind of weird to see.

    44.Jeff Jarrett
    -A dude who got loads and loads of opportunity and still barely made the list. I don't think he had a single 1 vs. 1 match that stood out to me, though he admittedly pulled his weight in some tag team matches.

    43.Yuji Nagata
    -A very talented wrestler with only a little bit of exposure, he still managed to rack up some very good performances when given the chance.

    42.Mortis
    -The mortal enemy of Glacier! Ok, the storyline was ultimately kind of silly, but Chris Kanyon definitely showed his potential under the mask.

    41.Public Enemy
    -Putting these guys together as well since they pretty much didn't do anything individually. They had some solid brawls and I'm also a sucker for table spots.

    40.Buff Bagwell
    -I'll be honest, Scott Norton carried Bagwell to get this high, as I don't think he did anything much of note by himself. Vicious and Delicious was a pretty good tag team though, and Bagwell was able to get it done if he really had to.

    39.Madusa
    -The only other woman on the list, who ranks just a bit higher than Hokuto because she had that feud with Luna Vachon which was actually pretty fun. No idea why she suddenly retired, aside from WCW basically cancelling the division.

    38.Dave Taylor
    -A guy who didn't get much time to shine, but individually or teaming with Regal, Taylor always impressed me.

    37.Chavo Guerrero
    -Often mixed in among the other luchadors, I always had a soft spot for Chavo and I think he did a good job of hanging with guys who were a lot more experienced than he was.

    36.Ciclope
    -He's more than just the guy Dean Malenko dressed up as that one time! Ciclope had some good showings as well, often in six man tag matches.

    35.The Giant
    -His tag team with Luger is quite underrated, and he's got some good matches individually against members of the nWo as one of the chief WCW defenders.

    34.Big Bossman
    -Big Bubba, Ray Traylor, call him what you will, but he was still damn talented at this point. That killer punch gets me every time.

    33.Silver King
    -One of my personal favorite luchadors, another who didn't get that much chance to show what he could do.

    32.Villano IV
    -Another in the lucha libre pack who always brought something good to the table when he had a chance.

    31.Alex Wright
    -Here's another guy I have a soft spot for! He was actually one of my favorite guys to watch in '95. By '97 he's not getting the same kind of opportunities, but he still pulls some good stuff out of his bag of tricks.

    30.Konnan
    -Not as bad as his reputation suggests, especially when he has a chance to work with other luchadors. His feud with Mysterio went particularly well.

    29.Hector Garza
    -Father of Humberto Carrillo, NOT Angel Garza (go figure), WCW made a bit of an effort to push Garza beyond the other luchadors. Not much, but some!

    28.Kevin Sullivan
    -Though he retired partway through the year, he still had a very impressive showing thanks to the Benoit feud on his way out.

    27.Chris Jericho
    -There are some flashes of how good Jericho would become, but he's painfully bland in '97, and not nearly as naturally gifted physically as some of the top guys. '98 will be a different story.

    26.Ric Flair
    -Injuries and age keep Flair from getting any higher than the midway point of the list, though he still had something to give. Not his best period though.

    25.Dean Malenko
    -Definitely a case where your mileage may vary. I tend to think Malenko is too dry and emotionless to make his matches compelling, though he can string together enough good moves to at least get him halfway up the lists. Others might list him much higher, but he's not really for me.

    24.Scott Norton
    -This massive dude is also massively underrated. Incredible build, incredible power, I only wish he got more chances to have the spotlight on him.

    23.Kevin Nash
    -I try to give Nash credit when he does things well, which he does sometimes despite my deep seated dislike for him as a performer. Even so, I have to say this is mainly thanks to some very good tags and six man tags with the likes of Hall and Syxx, as a singles guy in '97 there's really not much there to recommend. But he does play his supporting role well when he needs to, and he got loads of opportunities.

    22.Steve McMichael
    -Yeah, Mongo is higher than Malenko and Jericho, and it's not an accident. It helps that he spent a lot of time tagging with Benoit but truly, I have never seen a wrestler as unfairly maligned as Mongo for his in ring work. True, he was never going to be an all time great, but he's strong, explosive, hard hitting, and even when he looks rough he brings a vibe of authenticity that I value. Beyond his tag work, he even had some really good singles matches scattered here and there through the year.

    21.Randy Savage
    -I honestly thought Savage would be higher thanks to the DDP trilogy, but beyond that Savage wrestled sparingly and when he did it often wasn't a scenario where he could put on a barn burner. This would be the last year to really recommend Savage, and he'll always have those three great DDP bouts.

    20.Lex Luger
    -The eternally underrated! I'm a sucker for powerful guys, as I said, and every time Luger Racked some enormous opponent both I and the crowd lost it. Some very good tag matches against the nWo and some good singles such with guys like Hall, Booker T, Meng, and others.

    19.Syxx
    -The former 1-2-3 Kid had an underrated year, I feel. His time in WCW is often dismissed out of hand but he had some very good stuff. The ladder match with Eddie comes to mind, as well as some very good short TV bouts with Mysterio, not to mention pulling more than his weight in tag team matches.

    18.Curt Hennig
    -Even though he came in late in the year and even though he was a bit past his prime, I still had a lot of fun watching one of my all time favorites mix it up in WCW. New rivals like Benoit and DDP along with old enemies like Flair and Big Bossman, he had a very good showing for himself.

    17.Super Calo
    -A personal favorite luchador and guy who get overlooked too much, Calo was often called upon to make up the numbers in lucha tags or give a competitive squash win to another wrestler, but he never failed to impress in that role.

    16.Psychosis
    -WCW never seemed as wild about Psychosis as they did about Juvi, Eddie, or Rey, and perhaps with justification, but he still sits high among the ranks of the luchadors in WCW in this period with many great performances.

    15.DDP
    -A big favorite of the crowd and of mine, I really like the gritty feeling DDP brings to all his matches. His punches are awesome, and of course anytime he hits that Diamond Cutter in an unexpected way, you've got to lose it.

    14.Stevie Ray
    -Consider this a baseline for Harlem Heat, who had a very good year. Stevie always strikes me as awkward in the ring and I don't think he was ever in a position to succeed as a singles guy, but as a supporting guy in a great tag team he actually did quite well and his deficiencies were well hidden.

    13.Ultimo Dragon
    -I always have a sense that Dragon is a little overrated but I'll happily admit he had a very good year in '97. I just wish he could have gotten away from Sonny Onoo sooner, one of my least favorite managers ever...

    12.Booker T
    -A few chances to spread his wings as a singles guy put Booker a few paces above his brother, though in reality his talent had already far surpassed anything Stevie would ever do. '98 would be a coming out for Booker as a singles guy.

    11.La Parka
    -WCW never showed much interest in capitalizing on it, but I love how the crowd takes to La Parka quickly. There's just something about the guy that is unbelievably charismatic, and he's doing a hundred little things to get his matches over. Love the chairman.

    10.Steven Regal
    -If anything this is a big drop for Regal, who I would place in the top 5 from 93 to 96. Perhaps there is some impact on his ability due to struggles in his personal life, but more than anything it's just a lack of opportunity at anything really meaty. He's just floating around the midcard for most of the year. Still, each and every time he got a chance he showed me why he's one of the best ever.

    9.Scott Hall
    -Hall would really start to fall apart in the near future, but in '97 he was still really killing it in a lot of ways. The vibe he can bring to a match can't be understated, and he's another guy with just phenomenal punches along with a load of other tricks in his bag to make things more fun.

    8.Juventud Guerrera
    -One of the top luchadors in the company, and it's nice that he got some recognition for it at the time. Juvi was consistently impressive on the very top tier whenever he was given a chance.

    7.Barbarian
    -The Faces of Fear absolutely rule, and Barbarian also got some chances to show off what he could do in singles in '97. I used to not appreciate this man like I should, now I'll fight anyone who doesn't love him!

    6.Rick Steiner
    -Rick is another guy who would really decline in a couple years, but in '97 he's still a stiff clotheslining, improbable suplex throwing machine, and the Steiners had a very good showing that really jumped Rick up in the rankings.

    5.Meng
    -Take what I said for Barbarian and double it here! The only difference is that I always appreciated the guy. I think his PPV matches with Benoit are among the forgotten classics of WCW.

    4.Scott Steiner
    -I'm a total sucker for Scott, who can just do ludicrous things physically in this time. His strength is off the charts, maybe the best it ever was, and he retains some of that agility that first made him pop off the page early in his career.

    3.Eddie Guerrero
    -God bless the heel turn of Eddie Guerrero, which resulted in some of his career best work in '97. Everyone knows about the Mysterio feud, of course, but Eddie was really turning everything he touched into gold during this time.

    2.Rey Mysterio
    -One of the best TV wrestlers ever, Mysterio is a guy who can take a short Nitro match and make it into something great. The guy is just unbelievable, one of the best ever in my mind.

    1.Chris Benoit
    -He spends a lot of the year fighting the Dungeon of Doom, which means lots of matches with Sullivan, Meng, and Barbarian, which is perfect for a guy like Benoit, but he also mixed it up plenty with more traditional wrestlers and always did stupendously there as well. As always, strictly in ring the guy always produced something great.

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