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  1. #1
    Administrator Prime Time's Avatar
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    Mae Young Classic 2018

    Thread for the second Mae Young Classic. Anyone watching this?

    "The worst moron is the one too stupid to realise they're a moron."

  2. #2
    The Brain
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    Line up looks very good. Waiting for more episodes to drop so I can binge through them.

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    They're dropping one a week. So it could be a while before you get there. Some good talent in week one. Really enjoyed what I saw.

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    Super Moderator Team Farrell's Avatar
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    This is an unpopular opinion, but I think that Dave was right about the MYC when he put out the comment along the lines of "in 2018 you're supposed to say women's wrestling is good when it's not". This MYC isn't blowing me away.

    Sienna and Mia Yim felt like they were phoning in greatest hits in some sort of unwarranted epic match (and maybe if I'd seen some of their other stuff I'd feel differently). Kaitlyn and Kavita Devi was nothing special. Some girls seem to be trying to impress too much like Martinez dropping Rayne right the fuck on her head, and some seem to be going through the motions.

    The only one to stand out to me is Kacy Catanzaro. I think she could be a mega star in that company. But so far other than a bright spot or two like Satomura and Killer Kelly beating the tar out of one another, I feel like this tournament has been very blah and like probably 10 of the 32 are nowhere near ready for televised matches.

  5. #5
    The Brain
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    Can't speak to MYC as I haven't caught it yet, but I've seen tons of great women's wrestling in 2018, so that strikes me as a glib generalization by Meltzer at best.

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    I've quite enjoyed the MYC this year. Yes there has been a stinker here and there, like Zeuxis vs. Ariel Winter (Cedric's wife) but for the most part it's been enjoyable. I agree on Kacy Catanzaro, she has real potential especially with only 7 months under her belt. I thoroughly enjoyed Karen Q and Xia Li. I thought Toni Storm and Jinny was a hell of a match as well. It's not all going to be brilliant, but it's a chance to see some great women in action who we might not have seen otherwise.

  7. #7
    Administrator Prime Time's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mizfan View Post
    so that strikes me as a glib generalization
    I believe he's trying to object to a generalisation, more than is making one himself. I may be wrong but when I saw the original quote I don't believe the implication was that 'no women's wrestling is great'.

    "The worst moron is the one too stupid to realise they're a moron."

  8. #8
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    It'd hardly be the first time someone took Meltzer's comments out of context! It does seem at the very least a bit broadly dismissive though. If lots of people say they like women's wrestling, maybe they just like it? Seems a bit lousy to imply that fans are being disingenuous about what they think is good. I've seen women put on a few duds in 2018, but overall that sphere seems to be doing very well.
    Last edited by mizfan; 09-21-2018 at 01:53 PM.

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    Yeah, Meltzer said that specifically in response to someone asking him about how the matches were on the MYC tapings, I believe. It was one of those "if you have nothing nice to say" statements.

    I don't think he was taking about women's wrestling overall, but that in 2018 you can't say women's wrestling is sub-par even if some specific stuff really is.

  10. #10
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    Oh sure, definitely don't think Dave "Joshi-superfan" Meltzer is down on women's wrestling in general. I still don't agree with his specific point, plenty of people have pointed out, like Rob did above, that some of the MYC matches haven't been good. They weren't all good last time either, but they're never going to all be good, and as far as I've seen fans like some matches more than others in accordance with their tastes.

    One might as well say in 2018 you're supposed to say New Japan matches are great even if they're not.
    Last edited by mizfan; 09-21-2018 at 05:00 PM.

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    But plenty of people have also overrated several women's matches just because they think the women should be judged differently, which is his point. Dave has made it clear consistently that he judges everyone on the same scale, regardless if you're a man or woman. I don't think he's so much putting down women's wrestling today as he's just saying it's not up to snuff compared to some of the stuff he saw with Toyota, Aja Kong and so on in the 90's (which I agree with; those women were vastly ahead of most of the performers we have now and were some of the best workers in the world period). Where the divide comes in is that there's a ton of people who's only exposure to women's wrestling has been WWE (which until recently hasn't been very good) and they think this is the best it gets, hence some of it gets overrated. That definitely felt the case with the Women's Royal Rumble. Most people I talked too thought it was an average match at best but a lot of people also thought it was an all time classic just because it happened. It's stuff like that that Dave is pushing against I feel.


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    Meltzer is the same guy who up until recently was overrating Charlotte's work, thus helping the WWE narrative that she's the greatest women's wrestler of this generation... So its hard for me to take his opinion on Women's wrestling that seriously....

    And no, I'm not going to debate that so don't even try.

    As for the MYC, I haven't even watched it but the tournament like all WWE tournaments are more or less showcase for a few people under contract, a few good outsiders and people you've not likely heard of that much about getting a shot. I never expected every match to be great or even good when you have a few in it that belong at the Performance Center at the very least.

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    Really enjoyed Matsumoto/Evers on this week's episode. Great match, especially considering it was the opener of the week. Not impressed with any of the four in the middle matches (Conti/Elaban/Matthews/Dawn). Thought both matches were a bit of a mess. Io Shirai is a star, and poor Xia Brookside was just cannon fodder for her.

  14. #14
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    Really? See, for me that first match just felt like two wrestlers trading moves with little to no story and it bored me. It was every paint by numbers "epic" indy match. This is the part where we trade some of our smaller stuff, this is the part where you give me a bunch of your bigger stuff and I kick out, this is the part where I give you my big stuff and you kick out, this is the part where we exchange punches, this is the part where we both get our second wind and start stiffing each other, hit me with two+ finishing moves for the finish.

    I need some sort of story to keep my attention. I can watch people exchange moves any time I want. It was a babyface-babyface match, I've been there and they're tough. But that falls to WWE for noting trying to book babies or heels and just letting the girls go out, do what they do, and let the fans cheer who they will.

    Matthews/Dawn suffered the opposite problem. They both work as heels. Why not book Dawn vs Matsumoto and Matthews vs Evers? Now you've got a good baby-heel dynamic in both matches and can tell some stories.

    I was pleasantly surprised that Brookside/Shirai was basically a put over match. I half expected that it would be much more back and fourth, but I'm happy to see that they took a girl with enough name value that you'd expect something a little more even, and just used her to make the one that they want to get behind look like a monster.

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    Yeah, I did. Honestly, in a tournament setting like this there will be little to no story involved in any of the matches outside of heel vs. face, and that's OK. In this instance you had two hard-hitting brutes going at each other seeing who could take the best shot and survive to continue on. Good enough story for me. I knew little of Matsumoto and was impressed, and I was pleasantly surprised at the improvement of Rachel Evers over last year's tournament.

    I don't think Matthews/Dawn had the problem of being both heels. I think it had the problem of both not being very good. For as long as Nicole Matthews has been wrestling, she just wasn't very sharp in the ring. She looked winded, and seemed to struggle through that match.

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    Aw man, I love Nicole Matthews. But then the Canadian NINJAs were my route into a lot of women's wrestling that I've loved since the late 00s when I got really into Shimmer. She's one of the reasons I'm actually looking forward to sitting down with the MYC to come - her, Satomura, Shirai, Storm and Nox are the five names that I got excited about to start with, even though I expected someone like Nox to be in it. Oh, and the return of Kaitlyn. I always liked Kaitlyn.

    Still sucks that Portia Perez had to retire at, like, 27 because of her neck injury.

    Also, I totally get where Meltzer is coming from, and I think there is a bit of an issue emerging around that in some quarters. I got some backlash recently in a group of friends because I was pointing out how bad a wrestler Brie Bella is, and a couple of them piped up and were just saying 'you can't say that, just because she's a woman, you can't say that'. And it was like 'no, these are valid complaints about what makes her a bad pro wrestler, it's nothing to do with gender, I have the same complaints about Jeff Hardy or Sin Cara'. It's perfectly legitimate for someone to say 'not all women are good wrestlers/not all women's wrestling is great', in the same way that one would about the men. And, you know, I want women's wrestling to do as well as men's wrestling, I want WM35 to be headlined by Becky vs Rousey, I want Evolution to be a runaway success, and yeah, I want to see 20/25 minute women's title matches on PPVs or Raw. That doesn't mean I can't be critical about it being poor sometimes.
    Last edited by Oliver; 10-01-2018 at 09:05 AM.

  17. #17
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    The first week of the Round of 16 was pretty damn excellent.

    Toni Storm vs. Lady Godzilla was really entertaining, and I was glad to see Toni getting the victory. I love me some Toni Storm. They meshed really well together, having wrestled a few times before in Japan. Really solid opener.

    Kacy Catanzaro vs. Rhea Ripley was surprisingly good. I continue to be impressed with Kacy, having less than a year under her belt. She made a few mistakes, but recovered well and even fixed one of her botches near the end with the encouragement of the crowd. She's got a nice mix of aerial and gymnastics stuff that suits her well. She shouldn't be as good as she is at 7 months. Ripley is solid, but not spectacular, but I know WWE is high on her.

    Lacey Lane and Taynara Conti was nothing special. Pretty quick so as to give a huge amount of time to the Main Event, which was as good a match as I've seen in either of these tournaments.

    Mercedes Martinez and Meiko Satomura burned the house down. They got a little less than 20 minutes (which was the time limit this round) and it was insanely good. I don't know what, if anything the WWE plans to do with Martinez, but I'd really like to see her come aboard in some fashion. Satomura has just years of experience and it shows. The final Scorpion Kick that she used was insane. Can't say enough good things about that one.

  18. #18
    Super Moderator Team Farrell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob S. View Post
    Kacy Catanzaro vs. Rhea Ripley was surprisingly good. I continue to be impressed with Kacy, having less than a year under her belt. She made a few mistakes, but recovered well and even fixed one of her botches near the end with the encouragement of the crowd. She's got a nice mix of aerial and gymnastics stuff that suits her well. She shouldn't be as good as she is at 7 months. Ripley is solid, but not spectacular, but I know WWE is high on her.
    I'll probably watch the show tonight, but I have to ask: is Catanzaro a female Kurt Angle? Nobody in history has picked up the business as quickly as Kurt, going from walking in the door with minimal training to being able to hang with the best wrestlers on the planet in the span of like 18 months. Kacy obviously isn't there yet, but she's had seven months under her belt and is way better than she has any right to be at that point. If this level of improvement continues, where' she going to be in a year? Will she be hanging with the best WWE has 18 months from now?

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    Yeah good question. It really is astounding how good she is at this point in her career. The only thing that MIGHT hinder her is her size, but Alexa Bliss is about the same size and she seems to be overcoming it pretty well so I think she'll be fine. In 18 months, damn she should be pretty damn amazing.

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    So let's talk the Round of 8 coming up. There are some spectacular matches on tap and I can't wait to see what's next.

    Meiko Satomura vs. Lacey Lane- This one should be a no-brainer as I don't think the newcomer Lane will have enough to defeat Satomura, who has been doing this for a really long time. I like what I see from Lane, but I'd expect the veteran to advance here.

    Toni Storm vs. Mia Yim- this is one I'm REALLY looking forward to. Both Storm and Yim have strong cases for making it to the end, and with both now under the WWE umbrella I feel like either could advance. I love Toni Storm quite a bit, so I'm rooting for her to continue on.

    Tegan Nox vs. Rhea Ripley- I like Tegan way more than Ripley, but I know the WWE is very high on Rhea as the next powerhouse. This should be a good strength vs. speed battle that could go either way.

    Io Shirai vs. Deonna Purazzo- Purazzo's armbar is pretty fantastic, but she'll need a lot more than that to beat the high-flying Shirai. This one should be pretty fantastic.

    It's a really solid final 8, but if things go as I think they will I see the Final Four being:

    Io Shirai
    Meiko Satomura
    Toni Storm
    Rhea Ripley

  21. #21
    Super Moderator Team Farrell's Avatar
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    So, Tegan Nox... She hasn't been on NXT since she got hurt last year, has she? The MYC was her return? Because I'm a little confused about her. Michael Cole is pushing her so hard as the favourite and the one who's going to go all the way, but it feels so forced. This largely untested kid coming off of an injury the favourite to go all the way in a tournament that includes Toni Storm, Io Shirai, Mia Yim and Meiko Satomura?

    I fully understand that she's the one the company is behind, but maybe cool it a little more or give her a few more dominant wins?

  22. #22
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    Wait til you see what happens.

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    Wow, seriously devastated for Tegan Nox. Out a year with a torn ACL and then torn her ACL in the OTHER knee. Not going to lie, it brought a tear to my eye. I've got to think that she was supposed to go over Rhea Ripley there to set up a match with Io Shirai, but damn that's just awful for her.

    This was a really, really good episode. Some thoughts coming out of it:

    1.) Lacey Lane is going to be a star. She looked great against Satomura and I think a tag team with Ember Moon might be perfect for her.
    2.) Not sure how Tegan comes back from this. Double knee braces are probably in her future, and while SCSA worked with them, he was never really the same. And with her style of wrestling, it's going to be very difficult for her.
    3.) Shirai/Purazzo was the match of the night for me. That was damn good stuff.
    4.) Gotta think this is Toni Storm's to win now, inevitably setting up a final with Shirai I'd think. Can't imagine they'd put Ripley over, especially since they already announced she's wrestling for the NXT UK Women's Title at Evolution. They kind of spoiled that a bit there.

    So, semifinals
    Shirai/Ripley
    Storm/Satomura

    That ought to be pretty damn good.

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    Papa Triple H

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    There are many things I love about Triple H and the way he handles the business. He legit seems to care about the people under his watch. However, he still tows that company line, and being part of this sham in Saudi Arabia tarnishes the good things he does.

    I feel for Tegan Nox. I hope she can come back from this, but I'm just not sure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Farrell View Post
    So, Tegan Nox... She hasn't been on NXT since she got hurt last year, has she? The MYC was her return? Because I'm a little confused about her. Michael Cole is pushing her so hard as the favourite and the one who's going to go all the way, but it feels so forced. This largely untested kid coming off of an injury the favourite to go all the way in a tournament that includes Toni Storm, Io Shirai, Mia Yim and Meiko Satomura?

    I fully understand that she's the one the company is behind, but maybe cool it a little more or give her a few more dominant wins?
    I don't know, the thing with Nox (excluding this whole knee injury tragedy and stuff) is that she's got as much experience, and kudos, on the UK indy circuit as a Toni Storm, for example. She's done Stardom and Shimmer, same as Storm, is a year older than Storm too, so why would she have a similar billing to her?

    Nox certainly has an issue with knees though. She was a junior football player in the UK and had to give that up due to a knee injury as well.

  27. #27
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    So the semifinal matches of the MYC were really, really good. In fact, I'd say Satomura/Storm was one of my favorite women's matches I've seen recently. Just a hell of a match. Any other night Ripley/Shirai would have stolen the show, but it was tough to top what had just happened. Good stuff from all 4 women.

    So we have Toni Storm vs. Io Shirai at Evolution. That ought to be a damn good match. Damn good!

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
    I don't know, the thing with Nox (excluding this whole knee injury tragedy and stuff) is that she's got as much experience, and kudos, on the UK indy circuit as a Toni Storm, for example. She's done Stardom and Shimmer, same as Storm, is a year older than Storm too, so why would she have a similar billing to her?

    Nox certainly has an issue with knees though. She was a junior football player in the UK and had to give that up due to a knee injury as well.
    I don't doubt that, they've just spent so much time pushing and building Toni Storm and trying to get her accomplishments over, that it just struck me as really strange that a tournament that with so many more well-known women would have this comparatively less known girl coming off of a knee injury as the "favourite".
    Quote Originally Posted by Rob S. View Post
    So the semifinal matches of the MYC were really, really good. In fact, I'd say Satomura/Storm was one of my favorite women's matches I've seen recently. Just a hell of a match. Any other night Ripley/Shirai would have stolen the show, but it was tough to top what had just happened. Good stuff from all 4 women.

    So we have Toni Storm vs. Io Shirai at Evolution. That ought to be a damn good match. Damn good!
    I haven't seen last night, but actually didn't see last week's show until Tuesday. The one thing that stood out to me was that while the matches were good, just how secondary the little things are either in today's business or in WWE.

    Things like making your wrestling look like a struggle instead of just exchanging holds, and not repeating all the same spots. There were a number of spots repeated -- but when everyone is regularly working with each other, that's the stuff that happens -- and in the first two matches there were a lot of points that looked like two people allowing one another to exchange holds.

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    Yeah, I enjoyed both semi-final bouts a lot.

    I'm really psyched for Shirai vs Storm. I'm not sure which way it's going to go because I would say there's not a clear favourite in terms of standing. Last year I thought Sane was a lock, as Baszler clearly wasn't quite there yet and I wasn't sure WWE would give her the win of the whole tournament. But this time it feels like two real equals in terms of opportunities, which will make it interesting.

    By the way, I know we talked up the page about Catanzaro having maybe an Angle-like rookie year, and appreciate that Baszler had a couple of years under her belt before signing, but the years since Mae Young I to now for Baszler has been really incredible in terms of development, in my opinion.

  30. #30
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    Feel like it really out to be Io with the win, but I won't cry if it's Storm. Definitely gotta get to watching this, it sounds like it's been a lot of fun.

  31. #31
    Puerto Rican dude living in Japan Degenerate's Avatar
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    The finals between Shirai and Storm is possibly the main match that I'm looking forward to at Evolution. My heart wants Io to win, but my head thinks that Storm will pull out the win.

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