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  1. #41
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    I have never been in the group who dismisses someone because of their age. Their age + they can't move and they might die, sure. Their age + they only come around to main event WrestleMania or take off their boss hat to get over on someone, yes. But never simply age. If I am watching a guy like Daniels, and I don't know if he's 38 or 48, do I need to look him up to see his age so that I can know if I'm allowed to enjoy his work or not?
    This is me as well. I've seen guys be awesome in their 60s, and I've seen guys in their 30s who seem too burnt out/beat up to cut it. It's not about he number, it's about what they can do and how they're presented.

  2. #42
    Beautiful Fandom Mystic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Farrell View Post
    I'm not sure that Bischoff didn't believe that people could become stars. He watched it happen first hand with Goldberg. I think that his issue was that when he signed Bret in '97 was that he needed stars for his added TV time that were stars right now.

    Benoit, Eddie and Jericho could have been those guys eventually, but they needed stars right now. This is a problem in the current WWE, they bring people in from NXT and try to tell their audience that they are top guys right this minute. Then they don't get over immediately as top guys, become midcard comedy acts and eventually get cut or are sent to sit at home. Braun grew into a top guy over the span of like two years. AJ Styles took a few months of being established to the broader WWE audience before he was accepted as a top guy.

    That might wind up being an uphill battle for AEW, actually. If they manage to catch on to a broader audience than say Being the Elite and ROH are currently getting, are they just going to make that assumption that if they sign Will Ospreay everyone will immediately know who he is and they can push him as a top guy? Because if they go from a few hundred thousand views on BTE to two million on TV every week that's a big jump and a lot of people who have likely never heard of a lot of these indy top guys.
    This is a hell of an assessment. I admit that I was painting too broadly on Bischoff, but I also don't think I'm entirely off. Goldberg is a yes and no in this. Yes, they made him a star, but they weren't really taking him from midcard to superstar, or, said differently, he wasn't well entrenched as something other than a star. I won't belabor the point since this is not a Bischoff thread, but I think we could have an interesting discussion on this.

    I like better where you take it. Your last paragraph is the heart of my excitement and concern for AEW (and any new promotion). We could make a million guesses about what AEW will be and wants to be. If you watch BTE, you might think they want to be a super slick, wink at a small but consistent audience, type of show. If you factor in Khan and the money and the claims of TV, it seems they want to be something on the scale of WCW and WWF/E. As you point out, these are not the same in production, audience, talent needed. In Jericho's podcast about AEW (and I doubt he's speaking outside of what the company is thinking), he kept putting forth that they are presenting new guys/gals to a larger audience and that these new guys/gals are independent thinkers who have found a way to make money without a big platform. Where this is problematic, Jericho sets himself up as 1994 Hogan, who will balance the whole thing, but I'm not sure his name is big enough to do that alone. I think the ideal for AEW would be a TV deal slightly above expectations but not one that asks them to be WCW or WWF from day one. If you don't start TV until late in the year, you have talent that have some following, talent you can build around, and there is likely to be some names that may want to come in. Geez, this ended up being long winded, but I think, right now, they are not looking at anyone, not Omega, not anyone, as a sole guy to do anything. They seem to be taking the WCW route (when it was going well) of bringing in diversity and making it work collectively. The Elite bring one thing, OWE brings something else, guys like MJF something else again, guys like Jericho some else, etc. I hope that's how they try to do it.

    Edit: Having thought this out, their potential right now feels more WCW on TBS than WCW on TNT. Unlike TNA, who locked in hard on the T & A and X-Division, I think AEW might try to hit 4-5 categories. Which is part of what I loved about WCW. If I wasn't feeling the world title, I might be feeling the TV, or US, or Cruiser/lightweight, or tag, or US tag, or six man. AEW feels like, right now, they could have everything WCW had at its best, except the massive Monday Night main event scene, which is why I think they might clock in right now as WCW on TBS, versus anything else we've seen.

    Powder, agreed on all of that being opinion. The one thing I do wonder, however, is if creative minds start to view what someone can do at a later age differently, if it will mean better performing at a later age. In other words, there is such a big difference between the old guys who come and take your money off their past name and give nothing and a guy who is sitting there trying to conceive of how he can be better at 48 than he was at 38 or 28. I just think the change of mindset might change the reality, if taken up.
    Last edited by Mystic; 01-24-2019 at 05:53 PM.

  3. #43
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    It seems to me that AEW is already causing waves in professional wrestling. Big names from the indy circuit are choosing AEW over WWE, established WWE stars are either asking for their release or choosing not to re-up their contracts, and they are also signing stars from Japan.

    This promotion without any real shows or home yet, is already shaking up the business.

    THIS IS A GOOD THING!

    The WWE will be forced to change their product, how they treat their performers, and what kind of plot lines they have for the talent, other wise, they will either not sign, not re-sign, not renew, or ask to be released. Why work for the WWE, when they can achieve more with AEW?

    Having Cody, the Young Bucks, and Jericho all involved makes it a more legitimate place than Impact. And I hope that they will be the true catalyst for change.

  4. #44
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    Wondering, would people want to see Brock Lesnar vs. Jericho in AEW?

  5. #45
    No, don't want to watch that

  6. #46
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    I'd absolutely watch it. I'm not sure people have fully grasped just how different Jericho is outside of WWE. He's definitely got his limitations at nearly 50 but he held his own in both those Wrestle Kingdom matches with Omega and Naito (even beyond the hardcore elements). He can still get it done, and if he's got few limitations outside of WWE, that would mean Brock does as well and there's no guarantee he'd just be the "Suplex City" guy. Now if it were in WWE that be one thing because you know we're only getting a certain style from either guy. But outside of that, with fewer restrictions and what would likely be a money buildup given Jericho's great promo work and a fully unleashed Paul Heyman, I think it be stellar.

    Having said all that Omega vs. Lesnar would be even more money for me.


  7. #47
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    You say that but Brock can do whatever he wants. He's certainly paid enough to do whatever type of match... Remember hearing Dean say that Brock didn't want to do any of his ideas.

    I think suplex city caught on and WWE and Brock decided that's type of match they were going to lean on. Brock isn't looking to work 30 min NJPW classics.

    Brock's motivation is money and that's why I def think its possible and likely he'll listen to an offer from AEW if he gets one.

  8. #48
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    He'll definitely listen to an offer. Brock's only loyalty is to the almighty dollar and if nothing else AEW has a whole lot of that. It wouldn't be hard to top what Vince is paying him now and that'll be enough to get him to the table. From that point it's a low risk situation. Even if AEW weren't to get Brock, Vince would end up having to pay quite a bit to outbid them and that would likely lead to Vince pushing Brock over certain workers to justify the deal, leading to more unhappy workers who could then become available. And of course if AEW were to get him then suddenly you'd have a well known star (though not one I'd expect to draw huge numbers given his recent track record) who has fresh match ups waiting for him in Jericho, Omega, Pac, Cody, Hangman Page and possibly even more depending on who AEW gets. And that's not including the likelihood of Heyman being included in this deal. It's a low risk, high reward gamble and I expect they'll make an offer. I don't expect he'll sign, but he will at least listen.


  9. #49
    My answer is Brock's best gimmick is running all over everything. He can lose. Still, those loses aren't special...I want to see something special; something different...if I need to see Brock, I'll watch WWE for my 9.99 a month.

    Otherwise don't bother me with that same ol same ol shit

    ps: I can go back and watch his match with Eddy aniytime

  10. #50
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    Yeah, i'm sure they'll float him an offer.. I know Brock is making the most in WWE right now and Jericho's deal apparently got such a high number its just below Brock and Cena... (that forbes article had basically all WWE talent below that, with the most regular talent getting i think close to 2mil) And given the almost certainty of less dates to work, at least in the short term AEW will/should be attractive to anyone.

    Then again, more talent will need more shows, tv to run properly and while I do think AEW will spend, they shouldn't hitch their wagon to every WWE guy. Case by case basis. You don't want to be TNA.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by LK3185 View Post
    You say that but Brock can do whatever he wants. He's certainly paid enough to do whatever type of match... Remember hearing Dean say that Brock didn't want to do any of his ideas.

    I think suplex city caught on and WWE and Brock decided that's type of match they were going to lean on. Brock isn't looking to work 30 min NJPW classics.

    Brock's motivation is money and that's why I def think its possible and likely he'll listen to an offer from AEW if he gets one.
    Brock didn't really work the typical "Suplex City" match with Finn. His offense was largely suplexes, but that's because that's what his offence is. He's an amateur wrestler. He's never really been the "running spots" guy and of all people Finn isn't the right guy to try and go out there and do a technical grappling clinic with. I suppose he could have killed him with strikes.

    I too remember Dean saying that Brock wasn't into his ideas, but that makes me wonder what his ideas were. Dean seems like the type of guy that if Brock kept shooting down his bigger ideas he'd get frustrated, throw up his hands, say fuck it and have Brock steamroll him.

  12. #52
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    If we've learned anything about Brock Lesnar it's that he'll do whatever you want as long as you pay him. If AEW is going to pay him a truckload of money and tell him they want him to have matches with Jericho and Kenny Omega like he did with CM Punk a few years ago, he'll do it. If they want him to have Suplex City matches, he'll do it. He'll pretty much do anything as long as he's paid and AEW will pay him. Now will they pay him more than WWE? That I don't know. Either way it works great for Brock. I have no idea whether Jericho's tweet about Brock the other night was indeed him working an angle or if he was drunk and he's now covering for himself by leaking incorrect info, but either way it doesn't matter. The fact that the news is out there now means Vince (and Dana White, as UFC is still interested in Brock) cannot afford to sit back and think AEW won't pursue him. They'll have to up their offer and that alone means Brock is coming out a winner here. And like I said, it's not a huge risk for AEW. They either get him and suddenly have a ton of appealing matches on the table, or they drive up WWE's price to retain him, likely force WWE to push him over others (thus creating potentially unhappy wrestlers) and use the money elsewhere. It's a low risk, high reward gamble.

    That's a few months away from being real however and there have been some other moves from AEW over the past week. We know now that Jungle Boy (actor Luke Perry's son and a talented high flyer) is on board. This past week they've signed Chicago based wrestler Kylie Rae, former Lucha Underground star and current AAA Cruiserweight Champion Sammy Guevara (who is really, really good), Stardom wrestler Bea Priestley (who was offered and turned down a WWE deal) and most notably Trent Beretta and Chuck Taylor, two of the most entertaining guys out there. There should be a few more announced next week as well at this Ticket Party they're having on the 7th. I've heard that CIMA and the OWE guys will be there, I've heard Shazza McKenzie (an Australian wrestler) may be on the radar and, naturally, I've heard that'll be where they officially announce Kenny Omega. And that's not including all the speculation now about Brock, KENTA and Ambrose. It's only going to get crazier.


  13. #53
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    All I want to know is do they get Pentagon?

    We got one day reporting on that in early January. Supposedly AEW and Impact putting money down. Heard nothing since.

  14. #54
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    He and Fenix are in. The Young Bucks showed up to an indie show tonight where Fenix and Pentagon were wrestling SCU and offered them a spot in AEW. They all shook on it and the buzz coming out of the show seems to confirm they are in, though it's not known if it's an exclusive deal yet or not.


  15. #55
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    Excellent. Just saw your note, Cult, then went to the Google machine to see Jericho saying they signed an exclusive deal then taking a shot at them. Which I love, because I am hoping that Pentagon one day puts a whoopin' on Jericho for All In. Anyways, I'm happy now. I like AEW is honoring the folks who were with them at All In as sort of a potential foundation for early AEW. I've had a hotel on wait, as my attendance for DoN was based on whether they signed Pentagon. Looks like I will attend my second Cody-produced show in May.

    I like that, even as this company starts to take shape, I have no idea what it might look/feel like. They are taking their time, and there is so much left to unravel.

  16. #56
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    I want to clarify; Pentagon and Fenix have NOT signed an exclusive deal. I did some digging and got enough people to go on record to do a story on this over at Lucha Central (cheap plug!). At least for now, Pentagon and Fenix will work dates, much like they're doing with AAA, CMLL, Impact and MLW (LU is the only place they are signed to). While I do expect by the end of the year they will sign full time with AEW in the states, for now Pentagon and Fenix will continue to work all their other places, with AEW just added in.

    My full story on it is here.


  17. #57
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    Thanks, Cult. Glad to read this. I know business becomes business and it's likely to get icy between some promotions eventually, but I didn't want to see anyone screwed, especially MLW. Good deal all the way around, for AEW, for LB, for the companies mentioned.

  18. #58
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    Still, this is more indy stars that are not coming to the WWE, because they have other options. The WWE better start paying attention, or they will not have talent in a few years.

  19. #59
    The Brain
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    WWE is choked with talent right now, I'd be shocked if they have less than 200 full time wrestlers across all brands right now, and they're still doing everything they can to sign more. I'm very happy to see some people try their luck elsewhere.

  20. #60
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    To me the big thing isn't that these are indie stars passing up WWE; these are two major lucha libre stars passing up WWE. And they aren't the first. Remember that Bandido and Rush were both given WWE offers in the past month and both said no and went to Ring of Honor instead. This tells me that luchadores have been watching how guys like Andrade, Gran Metalik and co. have been used in WWE and have decided to stay as far away as possible (yes I know Almas has been used well the past month, but before that he wasn't being used much at all).


  21. #61
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    Amen, Gran Metalik alone should convince anyone luchador to give it a second thought.

  22. #62
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    Okay, so a source has reportdly said Randy Orton is open to talking with AEW about a possible deal. Not that one is in place but its certainly something to watch.

    Just thought i'd pass that along

  23. #63
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    I just read that as well, and it seems like Orton May be using AEW as leverage to get more money from the WWE. I can’t see Orton leaving, he is still one of the protected chosen few.

  24. #64
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    God, the thought of Pentagon Jr being in WWE and ending up as just A N Other on 205 Live has made me miserable. Thank goodness that isn't a thing that's going to happen.

    Someone like Orton, I would say more than anybody else currently contracted to WWE, would be a signing that's a huge deal. He's certainly got it in his locker to keep pace with the main top guys on their current roster, every match he could have would be fresh (CODY aside, I suppose), and he's just treading water in WWE at the moment so I imagine there's some appeal to him in moving elsewhere. Like, Orton's not really doing anything on Smackdown right now, he's unlikely to get into title contention on a serious basis right now, his character is stale and not evolving...I imagine the opportunity to freshen up his career a bit is a big thing for him, right now, and he's certainly got enough cash in the bank to take a risk on AEW. I mean, he's only 38, it's not like they'd be getting some aging WWE also-ran - they're getting a man who has years left in the tank, injuries permitting, and probably has the urge to develop himself further.

    I'd love to see Orton in their mixing it up with the likes of Omega, Pentagon, Fenix, the Bucks and so on.

  25. #65
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    I think Orton heard about what Jericho was making and thought 'hey i'm a bigger star, lets see if i can get that' and at worst, he ups his leverage with WWE if they want to keep him.

    Since there's no offer on the table currently, Orton talking about being open to it screams negotiating tactic.
    Last edited by LK3185; 02-06-2019 at 11:47 AM.

  26. #66
    Feeling Minnesota Powder's Avatar
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    But at this point, what could Orton do? He has basically been the same character for nearly 12 years. The boring, monotone promo, who attacks people because he feels he is better than them. The last time Randy Orton was interesting was when he was in the HHH feud where he DDTed Stephanie while HHH was handcuffed to the top rope.

    If Orton was going to jump to AEW to expand his character, then why doesn't he do that in WWE? Orton has enough stature and tenure to be allowed some freedom. There are newer and younger guys on the roster, and in NXT that Orton can work with to freshen himself up and to create good matches with.

    Chad Gable
    Samoa Joe
    Kevin Owens
    Finn Balor
    AJ Styles - rumored as his WM opponent
    Eric Young and Sanity
    Rusev
    Mustafa Ali
    And the entire NXT roster.

    If Orton wanted to, he could change himself up, but I think he is complacent. He gets paid, and does the same old same old. He probably thinks "I do not need to do anything else, I'm still the veteran, and the top of the mountain". But Orton should change himself up. Be a heel, but completely reinvent himself. Look at Daniel Bryan, he killed the YES movement and is a completely different character, and is refreshing.

    Orton is still boring as hell.
    Last edited by Powder; 02-06-2019 at 11:52 AM.

  27. #67
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    Orton, like other performers, can only really work with what he's given though. WWE clearly have no motivation to push him to the Championship level again, nor are they giving him some further direction in terms of character development. So what can he do?

    I actually think his recent weeks have been the most interesting he's been for a long time. But that's as much due to how he's being used.

  28. #68
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    I understand that, but as I said, Orton can go straight to Vince and HHH and ask to change himself up. I am not saying that he should be near the WWE or Universal Title, but he can be a more interesting character.

    Why can't he ask to work a program with Mustafi Ali, where he puts Ali over? Orton is 38 and has nothing left to prove, so let him start putting people over. Remember when he was the Legend Killer? Those veterans put Orton over, so let him return the favor.
    Last edited by Powder; 02-06-2019 at 12:11 PM.

  29. #69
    Why put guys over like Mustafa Ali in a WWE by-the-numbers feud when he can still headline shows for another company and make his personal brand bigger? I see both sides but Jericho showed that accomplished veterans can still be in top programs making top money elsewhere, and don't have to fall back to the midcard like in WWE.

    Orton outside of the WWE bubble is very interesting though.

  30. #70
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    I think Orton is the type of guy that wants more time off but WWE isn't quite ready to put him in that legend role. Where he'd be putting people over. They know his RKO still pops people, so they have him as a threat but not really.

    AEW has to be enticing for someone like him because currently, they have 3 shows coming up and they're paying guys like Jericho, someone 10 years older a boatload of money.

    I personally don't see many interesting matchups but its more compelling than WWE refusing to put him in a HBK type role

  31. #71
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    Yes Jericho headlined in Japan, but he put over Punk, Fandango, Styles, Edge, Owens, Zayn, and more, while still remaining a main event player.

  32. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powder View Post
    Yes Jericho headlined in Japan, but he put over Punk, Fandango, Styles, Edge, Owens, Zayn, and more, while still remaining a main event player.
    Punk was in the main event scene, as was Edge - they were both for the big title - but every other feud you name there was long, and I mean LONG, after Jericho was considered a main event player. Owens was over the US title, for example, and solidly midcard. Same as his feuds with Ziggler, Styles, Bray, and Ambrose. He's not been a main event player in WWE since mid-2011.

  33. #73
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    I'm fairly certain this is a negotiating tactic. There's definitely reasons to think it isn't, with the big reason being Orton's close friendship with Cody. But at the end of the day, unless it's a massive offer from AEW, my guess is this is just Orton using AEW's existence to get himself a bigger pay day. Props to him if that's the case. The more likely move that was also rumored last night (but that no one brought up here) is the Usos making the jump. They apparently have contracts coming up and have yet to re-sign with WWE; they're also guys who have done almost everything imaginable in WWE and have fresh match ups with the Bucks, Lucha Brothers and other teams waiting for them (not to mention a likely bigger pay day given AEW's desire for a true tag division). It's the Usos you have to be more on the lookout for here, not Orton by my estimation.

    I do have a few other names I've heard that are either AEW bound for sure or at the least very likely. They announced last night Jimmy Havoc is on board, and for now he'll have a nonexclusive deal much like Pentagon and Fenix. The other guys I've heard are Dezmond Xavier and Zachary Wentz (The Rascalz team from TNA, who are also associated with CIMA and his Strong Hearts stable in OWE), Andrew Everett, DJZ and Sonny Kiss (XO Lishus from Lucha Underground). Darby Allin was someone mentioned to me who hasn't signed but will be likely to, which would mean Priscilla Kelly would go with him. I'm not sure if any of these guys will appear tomorrow at the Ticket Party but keep an eye out for them.


  34. #74
    I don't see the Usos moving the needle much. They really do nothing special. Signing them would be more of a TNA-move because they come from WWE and that's the only reason for signing them. They're made for WWE.

    And I agree I can't see Orton going anywhere, but it's a smart move to put the rumors out.

  35. #75
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    Any chance of AEW signing Harry Smith? He is still a big enough name, and could be good, and he is still relatively young (33) and given the right push, he could be very marketable.

  36. #76
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    I'd like to see the Usos in AEW if only to work the Bucks and see how many super kicks they can get off in one match. I personally think they're good talent but not exactly an earth shattering move.. Also believe that AEW possibly would offer them the most money

  37. #77
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    Well, the first Earth shattering move will be who jumps ship first.

    If it is the Usos, then it makes headlines. And the Usos have done all they could do in the WWE. 5 time champs, put on great matches for a decade, etc. So there is nothing left for them to do in the WWE, except a feud with the Revival. So I could see the Usos leaving.

    I could see the Usos, the Good Brothers and the Revival all leaving for AEW, but all three probably won't, until the Revival's contract is up.

  38. #78
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    Just on a personal level, not at all interested in seeing Orton in AEW. It'd be a big deal to sign a WWE lifer, for sure, but the last thing AEW needs is an entitled, burnt out guy looking to coast on his name and cash the Khan's checks, which is all I feel I've seen from Orton in nearly a decade. Bringing in a WWE guy and sticking him on top right away has the potential to hurt the kind of brand AEW is trying to cultivate as well (Jericho and Cody don't count as they established themselves firmly outside WWE before coming on board). I won't boycott the promotion or anything if he does get signed, but personally I hope it doesn't happen.

    Love the idea of DJZ and Sonny Kiss being signed. Sonny has miles of potential and I'm shocked DJZ has been on the indy table for as long as he has already.

  39. #79
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    Ooooookay, let's get real here for a second. AEW needs a name. They need a marketable, big name star that the general public will recognize if they want this promotion to be more than ROH 2.0.

    The Khan's aren't stupid. That money isn't going to flow forever without seeing some return on investment, and they need interest and eyeballs to make that happen.

    Let's look at some numbers.

    All In Zero Hour drew 196,000. All In put a little more than 11k people into an arena for a $460k gate.

    That's impressive as hell, but was a "one time thing" with people travelling from all over to see the show and people tuning in out of curiosity. They'll put 15k into the MGM, undoubtedly, but can they keep doing that?

    Can they put 3,000 people into buildings to tape their weekly TV? Can they put 10k into buildings for PPVs?

    Why would I believe that they can on an ongoing basis when ROH can't with basically the same talent?

    As much as people might want this to stick to its indy roots, eventually you have to attract a broader audience if you want this to be self sustaining, and the fastest and easiest way to do that is with a couple of names that those people will recognize.

    So yeah, Randy Orton or whomever else might be boring or stale in the eyes of a certain fanbase, but who do they have that's going to make 50k more of the two million Raw viewers take an interest?

    I am behind AEW. I desperately want them to succeed. Selfishly, there have been doors opened for me personally because of this sudden rush by everyone to sign guys, so yeah, I want this place to completely upend the landscape.

    But I'm trying to be realistic. DJZ and Pentagon Jr and Cody and the Bucks and all these guys are awesome. But none of them has been able to put thousands of people into a building in the US, and attract half a million eyeballs to a TV show on a consistent basis. And the reality is that if AEW is spending WWE money, they need to see WWE returns within a few years in order to remain viable. They need a TV deal worth a significant sum, which is going to require eyeballs to maintain. They are going to need to be putting thousands of people, even if it's only four figures, into buildings on a regular basis which is going to, sooner rather than later, require names that the general public is familiar with because travelling from all over to see an AEW taping is going to lose its novelty in a hurry.

    AEW needs to be bigger than ROH in a hurry, but I am not seeing the name value to the general public in order to do that.

  40. #80
    Feeling Minnesota Powder's Avatar
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    May 2018
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    What about Kenny Omega? Could he be that name?

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