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  1. #41
    The Brain
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    There's nothing the (chair)man can't do though!

  2. #42
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    The man just put on a classic match IN PUEBLA! Watch it, it's amazing! I actually enjoyed Ultimo Guerrero, he looked like he's having such a blast in this match. LOL It was classic, 2 older faces who were over like crazy, a younger worker who can bump, and 3 crazy ass over heels, and a Little Person spot that put him through the stairs. It's the perfect trios match.

  3. #43
    The Brain
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    I always enjoy Ultimo Guerrero, dude is consistently pretty awesome (at least from what I have seen).

  4. #44
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    Any UG slander will not be tolerated LWO! The UG is an amazing worker; unfortunately he's stuck with the rotting corpses of Cibernetico, Zorro and Charly Manson at the moment so its hard for him to show it.

    Puebla will be exciting again next week guys; LA Park and his crazy son will take on Rush and Cavernario in a tag match!


  5. #45
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    Wait, I've always put UG over... so confused. But it felt like he was having a lot of fun with that much crowd reaction. So no UG slander from me! maybe bad wording, but never would I intentionally bury UG. Ever.

  6. #46
    The Brain
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    Well, you said you "actually" enjoyed UG, which made me think it was a rare occurrence for you, when in fact every UG appearance is to be enjoyed and celebrated!

  7. #47
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    I did, and I am sorry. When I said actually, I should have put at the end, I actually enjoyed UG more so than usual, because I always enjoy UG.

  8. #48

  9. #49
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    I bow to the alter of Ultimo Guerrero!

  10. #50
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    So who should CMLL put the title on?

  11. #51
    The Brain
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    I'm not the expert by any stretch but...

    Rush - This would be a great pick for any title in my book. Rush has got such awesome It Factor.
    Valiente - Tied for my first choice, the stuff this guy does in the ring is amazing, and he does it all while shaped like a barrel. Amazing.
    Ultimo Guerrero - He's legendary enough that he doesn't need a title but he's great enough that I'm sure he'd kill it in title matches, so he'd be a fine choice.
    El Terrible - I dig Terrible to a certain extent. He's not amazing but he's got a certain vibe I like, and I don't think he's bad in the ring. Wouldn't be my first choice though.
    Euforia - I know I've seen him in a handful of really good trios matches over the past few years but I'm not thinking I've seen much as a singles guy. Could be good, maybe??
    Gran Guerrero - For a second I was thinking of Guerrero Maya Jr, who I like a lot. I think Gran Guerrero is alright but he wouldn't be that high on my list.
    Blue Panther Jr - I like him more than The Panther, at the very least? Should probably watch more of the guy.
    Kraneo - I appreciate him for his unique look but he's not exactly an in ring standout, as far as I've seen.
    Rey Bucanero - I got to see him live this year! But probably not a great choice.
    Diamante Azul - Don't know him well enough to say.
    Volcano - I don't think I've seen the guy work.
    Shocker - No.

    Also, 1000% more excited for David Finlay in CMLL than Flip.

  12. #52
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    The upcoming Universal Championship tournament is going to determine the winner of this. CMLL generally runs 16 champions to determine the Universal Champion; right now they have seventeen total, with Electrico (who is Mexican National Lightweight Champion) and Dragon Lee being unknowns due to irrelevance (Electrico) or being stuck on an island for a reality show (Dragon Lee). If CMLL uses neither then it'll be a winner who doesn't have a title, which would eliminate Rush, the UG, Euforia, Gran Guerrero and El Terrible from winning (and would put Diamante Azul and Valiente in the front runner position). If Lee gets back in time then it could be anyone. I'd personally give it to Euforia, who is easily one of the best and most underrated luchadores alive (as evident by the fact that mizfan doesn't know about him!) but I would guess it go to either Rush or UG.

    Also; some of these statements are straight out blasphemy mizfan! Blue Panther Jr. (who I like and find to be a good dude) is better than Black Panther?! El Terrible is just okay? Gran Guerrero is just alright (especially after that Match of the Year candidate he had with Caristico the other night)? David Finlay Jr., a guy who has had approximately one match I would say was "good" in his career is better than Flip Gordon?! Next you'll tell me AAA La Parka is better than LA Park.


  13. #53
    What reality show is Dragon Lee on?

  14. #54
    Senior Member LWO4Life's Avatar
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    Looks like Rush is going to MLW. There are so many questions. But one big one is that CMLL has been very protective of their talent for so long. Even with L.A. Park as a freelancer going from CMLL and AAA in the same week, that's been revolutionary for them. But now, their own talent Rush performing on MLW, a place that has by Konnan off all people, this is huge. MLW wrestlers can go to CMLL, but I can't think of a time that a CMLL wrestler went to MLW? Maybe I'm wrong, but this brings up so many questions. Is MLW working with CMLL? Is Rush's contract done and we don't know it? Is CMLL getting more flexible about their talent working outside the promotion? Did Rush make a deal with CMLL? So many questions. We are at a very important time in the business. It looked like for so long that the old way of free lance territory and indy wrestlers was gong away and bigger promotions will run the globe. But when the 3rd largest wrestling company in the world, a company that's a lot like WWE in their protection of their property and wrestlers (like keep trademarks to gimmicks and mask so wrestlers can't use them outside of CMLL) starts to let their talent work with companies that they aren't really friendly with, what does that all mean. AAA has always been ahead of CMLL in this area, it this a new era of CMLL?

  15. #55
    The Brain
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    My guess is that CMLL is just relaxing on who can go where, they haven't had a problem with their guys working Mexican indys so I'm guessing they wouldn't care that much for the US either? I could be completely off base though.

    Ah, I knew for sure Cult would come in to tell me why I'm wrong about stuff! Also; some of these statements are straight out blasphemy mizfan! Keep in mind I've only seen the various Panthers wrestle a handful of times, so plenty of opportunity for me to change my mind. I like BPJ's look better and I feel like I've seen him do some cool stuff but I didn't think he blew Panther out of the water by any stretch.

    If anything I thought I'd be the high vote on El Terrible, glad to be wrong about this! I actually like him a lot, I just didn't think his style was the kind that would impress fans as much. I really dig the guy though.

    Gran Guerrero is apparently a guy I need to see more of! Seeing him mostly in trios matches over the past couple years I felt he was usually overshadowed by Niebla Roja or Ultimo Guerrero, but that's admittedly a high bar. I'll watch out for that Caristico match and see if it changes my opinion.

    Need to see more Euforia too for sure! I will start keeping a sharp eye out!

    I don't know what to tell you about Flip though, I just don't like the guy that much. He's athletic but I don't see much else about him, and he's not athletic enough to stand out in the super athletic wrestling scene of today. I feel like I could list 100 guys I consider better working flyers, and as far as I can tell that's all he really has going for him. He's not garbage but he doesn't do much for me. I'm not a David Finlay superfan by any stretch but I feel like he's looked pretty promising in New Japan a couple times, and I think he may be in a better position in his career to pick up good habits in Mexico. That's my take, apologies to any huge Flip fans!

  16. #56
    I hear Michael Elgin is showing up here now?

  17. #57
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    It looks like Diamante Azul is going to win the title. I was hoping for Rush, but only because I want someone as champ in their prime who people will know outside CMLL. But after looking at everything, if Diamante Azul wins I wouldn't be mad. Ultimo Guerrero winning would be awesome, but the more I think of it, his age and the fact he already had a long Heavyweight reign in the 2000's (beat Del Rio for it, pre-Del Rio), and also it's not like this is the most important title in CMLL (or any title really), it might be better to give it to someone else.

    As for the hate on Gran Guerrero. He's the future, I think he's great. Sure he teams a lot with Ulitmo Guerrero, but he's still young, and learning a lot. I think he'll do fine pretty soon.

  18. #58
    The Brain
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    Elgin's worked down there a few times, I believe he just won their Grand Prix.

    I've seen a bit more Diamante Azul since my last post and I like the guy, got no problem with him having the title, though I agree Rush is still my favorite choice.

    And I swear I don't hate Gran Guerrero, like I said I think he's fine! He's just been overshadowed in the matches I've seen him in. I'll keep an eye out for more of his stuff to refine my impression of him.

  19. #59
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    Diamante Azul is one of those guys who gets overrated by certain people and underrated by others. And by others I mean the lucha community; he is loathed by a lot of people that I know. I've personally never gotten it. He's not the greatest worker I've ever seen and he largely gets booked high on the card because he's a) big and b) steroid buddies with Rush (or so I've heard) but he's unique in that he uses far more power moves than usual in lucha, has some athleticism and has some great offense. His running senton off the Arena Mexico ramp is always good (it's good in Puebla too; last week he jumped over the crowd to hit it) and no one in wrestling does a better Monkey Flip than he does. If you put him with the right opponent or in a trios situation with other top stars then he's good; he's just not someone capable of carrying someone to a great match like the UG or Volador is. Him winning the Heavyweight Title should be fine though as CMLL will likely only be putting him with guys like UG, Gran Guerrero and so on.


  20. #60
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    Eh, Lucha community sometimes to me is stuck in the 90's; me, BRING BACK THE 80's and roided monsters! Azul looks impressive, and if CMLL tours him across the globe, people can buy him as the champ. I mean this title means way more outside CMLL then in CMLL. Maybe that's why I was an AAA fan for a long time, I'm a title mark.

  21. #61
    The Brain
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    Yeah, I love a good bulky luchador. Azul looked good to me mixing it up with Park at Aniversario, though granted Park is one of the best guys to look good with in 2018!

  22. #62
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    If they keep him with guys who'll protect him in the ring, it'll be fine. I do expect Rush to either win the title from him eventually.


    Didn't know they were steroid buddies. I mean I kind of knew Azul used, but not Rush. Though Del Rio hinted that Almas used, and it was common in Mexico, so it shouldn't surprise me.

    I'll be honest, I think Ultimo Guerrero would have another good reign, I just don't think they'll go that direction. But Gran Guerrero...

  23. #63
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    You can easily tell Rush uses; his back is loaded with acne every time you see a close up of it. I don't know the full particulars but I know people who have talked about Rush and Azul sharing roids together and that their friendship is largely why Azul gets his push (and he is pushed heavily at times, like last year when he won the Grand Prix and had what had to be one of the worst mask vs. mask feuds ever with Bestia del Ring). I think he would still be pushed anyway because of his size and power skill, but I'm not sure to the extent it has. It's whatever; I find him to be enjoyable unless he's in there with a bunch of guys like Bestia, Shocker and such, but he's not going to appeal to many in the lucha community. Not because their stuck in the 80's or 90's either, but because he isn't as graceful or athletic as some of the top stars (that's a story for another time though. Lucha fandom of certain styles can definitely go to the extreme, which is why there are still people who think Rayo de Jalisco Jr. should still be pushed heavily despite the fact that he's always completely sucked).

    In any event, like I said earlier I would be fine with him winning. Frankly I'd be fine with the UG winning it too. Whoever CMLL chooses it'll come down to a) who sets up the Universal Championship tournament better when the time comes and b) who will have the better matches. In regards to the latter the argument works for both; UG is obviously the better worker and could have great matches with anyone (Azul, Valiente and even heel vs. heel matches with Rush and Terrible to name a few), but the technico side is admittedly think in the CMLL Heavyweight division, whereas Azul would UG, Gran Guerrero, Euforia, Terrible, Hechicero and any one of the New Japan/ROH Heavyweights to feud with when/if CMLL brought them in. The Universal Championship tournament is more complicated. I believe I've pointed out before that CMLL uses sixteen champions for the thing. As of now the following guys in CMLL are champions; UG, Euforia, Gran Guerrero, Cuatrero, Forastero, Sanson, Rush, Terrible, Niebla Roja, Volador Jr., Soberano Jr., Dragon Lee, Atlantis, Mephisto, Stuka Jr. and Caristico (note that the Women's titles, Arena Coliseo tag titles and Mini-Estrella titles don't count here. There's some debate about whether Electrico's Mexican Lightweight title reign counts but most think it doesn't). That right there is sixteen champions and enough to run the tournament, which means Azul doesn't have to win to make it happen. Further complications are that Dragon Lee is still stuck on his reality show and Soberano and Volador are off to New Japan for the Power Struggle tour, which brings the tournament down to just thirteen guys if they were to do it now, which can't be filled by just Azul (or Electrico if they decide to count him) and likely means they're going to delay it till next month. In short, either guy could win. It is very much a toss up.


  24. #64
    The Brain
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    Ignorant lucha fan question, how long has UG been considered a tecnico? Is that a recent turn or have I been misunderstanding the antics of this awesome guy this whole time??

  25. #65
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    To be honest, I'm confused with UG myself. I thought he was a rudo this whole time, but more like a tweener. He gets technico reactions, and works with technicos, but is still a rudo. Almost like WCW Ric Flair when he's a heel but getting cheered and still fighting the nWo. (correct me if I'm wrong Cult)

    As for the 90's comment. Yeah, it was a bit dismissive. I more or less meant it as I know the lucha community has opinions, but I think much of it is based off newer style lucha. For me, I still remember the terrible worker that was Mil Mascaras, but yet my dad though Mil Mascaras was the greatest wrestler that ever lived. So while I personally think UG having another run with his great work is way more preferable to me, I get why Diamante Azul would get the nod. I'd be much, much happier with UG, but I truly think they are going Diamante Azul and I get it. I'm not mad at it. I'm also SHOCKED that Rayo de Jalisco Jr. is still around. Let's face it, back in the day (the 90's... LOL... yes, judge me and all of this post) AAA kicked the living hell out of CMLL because CMLL pushed wrestlers like Rayo de Jalisco Jr. while AAA had way younger and way better workers.

  26. #66
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    2 Time CMLL Heavyweight champion, Ultimo Guerrero! I couldn't be happier. Sometimes booking yourself champion is the best way to go.

  27. #67
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    When you're as good as UG, I don't mind it half so much!

  28. #68
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    Hey, I have to agree. Part of why I thought they would give it to Diamante Azul is he looks good, he is somewhat athletic, passable in the ring, but he's younger and I thought UG and the committee would book someone else as champion. But UG is a MUCH better wrestler, WAY more over, and as traveled and is a great representative of CMLL. Also, when you are filling the title because your last champion left, sometimes you have to keep the belt in-house.

  29. #69
    The Brain
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    For sure, UG has become one of my favorite guys to watch in lucha so I can't really begrudge him some extra attention, even if he's essentially giving it to himself. It's like Vince in the Attitude Era, sometimes you are the booker AND a draw.

  30. #70
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    They had to go with the UG. I don't know if anyone saw the match he had with Michael Elgin a week ago but if you did, you would know after that CMLL had no choice. The UG was beyond the scope in that match. He's had numerous off the charts performances over the years but his work in that match was some of his best work ever. Once that happened (in addition to the fact that he's one of the best workers CMLL has and one of the most over guys in Mexico) I don't think CMLL or Guerrero (who is involved backstage but I'm not sure he's actually on the committee. If he were I think CMLL would be more consistent!) could go any other direction. The sad thing is no one saw it live because that was the night YouTube completely crashed! It was apparently a solid match and the crowd did react huge when UG won, as expected.

    As for the UG's status, my understanding is he has always been a rudo. He broke in as one with Promo Azteca back in the 90's and then joined CMLL a few years later after refusing to drop his mask. A great decision considering he later lost his mask in one of the most memorable events ever against Atlantis at the 81st Aniversario show (which, along with ROH's upcoming MSG show, is one of only two non WWE shows in the US to draw over $1 million at the gate). Through it all, whether it be the legendary tag team with Rey Bucanero, the alliance with Atlantis and so on, he's remained on the rudo side. That said he is easily one of the most popular rudos in lucha libre (him and Negro Casas are consistently over no matter what they do) and he has worked babyface in certain matches like the Grand Prix, his mask match with Villano V, his hair match with Rey Escorpion and the Elgin match last Friday. Quite frankly he could've been a legendary technico if the chips fell that way; instead he's now a legendary rudo. When all is said and done I wouldn't be shocked if he's up there with Casas as one of the all time all around luchadores. He's drawn money, he's an excellent tag worker, trios worker and singles worker and can play any role asked of him. He's an absolute legend.


  31. #71
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    From my understanding, Ultimo Guerrero has been a big part of CMLL's front office and part of the booking committee for a while now. Since I don't have sources, I could be very wrong and just misread somewhere. Of course, does anyone know how big, or exactly who is on the CMLL booking committee, isn't Tirantes also part of the booking committee? I personally blame ALL inconsistencies on Tirantes, even if he isn't part of any booking, or even if he was suppose to be a screwed up as he is, or all the botches. It's all on him, that's who I place all blame on and that's final... LOL.

    UG will have to go down as one of the most legendary figures in Lucha. I would really have to dig to find the true splits of eras in Lucha, like when is the Golden Era (60's), are the 90's the second Golden Era (yes?), who are the stars of each era and how did they change the business (L.A. Park would be viewed very favorable)? With that said, I know just on what's happened, UG has to be seen as a true all-time figure. His tag work with Rey Bucanero alone has to put him up there as an all time great.

  32. #72
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    My understanding is the CMLL booking committee's main members are Panico, Franco Columbo and a few others. Tirantes is in charge of Puebla, which is why that show is so difficult to watch. The UG definitely has some pull and he's very involved in training wrestlers (he trained the Micro Stars, in particular Micro Man), but I don't think he's on the main committee. The last I heard about him gaining any sort of major power in CMLL was a year ago, when he was rumored to take over the head of the CMLL union position after Brazo de Oro died. That of course led to the all time great story of La Mascara, Maximo and Psycho Clown destroying the UG's sports car, Mascara and Maximo getting fired (along with Bobby Z, who hasn't been seen since) and the UG shrugging it off and getting an even better sports car. You got to love lucha libre!

    Speaking of guys who used to be involved/are somewhat involved in CMLL's backstage operations, tonight is the 40th Anniversary show of Blue Panther! There's going to be a big ceremony in Panther's honor, his sons will take part in a cibernetico named in honor of Panther's trainer (Halcon Suriano) and Panther himself will wrestle in the semi-main, teaming with Black Warrior (BLACK WARRIOR!), Euforia and Ephesto (under a different name) taking on Cuatrero, Forastero, Sanson and Mascara Ano 2000. Pentagon will also be on the show in the main event. It's well worth your time, especially since Panther is easily one of the best technical workers ever.


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