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  1. #41
    The Brain
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    At least he avoided Russo's "Pinata on a Pole" Match, AKA the we're never going to push any luchadors ever again match.

  2. #42
    Senior Member LWO4Life's Avatar
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    Yeah, I didn't watch that episode. I remember hearing that, and when I changed the channel, I left it on WWF, forget commercials. I watched the USA commercials because I wasn't watching that hot garbage.

  3. #43
    The Brain
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    Back to AAA, have you been watching these sweet openers? I watched one (from 4/20) at Cult's urging and it was a blast, if you love incredibly fast paced stuff with lots of jaw dropping spots (and I do!).

  4. #44
    Senior Member LWO4Life's Avatar
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    I just barely got their Twitch, so I haven't been as up on them as CMLL. I can imagine they have better openers than CMLL though, CMLL depends so much on older luchadors and AAA have younger more athletic luchadors. But now that I got them on Twitch, I will start watching more regularly.

  5. #45
    The Brain
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    I still overall prefer CMLL, but AAA definitely gives you something different and sometimes that's great (and sometimes it's shit, but less so at the moment from what I see!).

  6. #46
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    CMLL isn't exactly a shining example of organization either. I love watching CMLL more times than not and when they're on there's few things better (same with AAA frankly) but this is also the same promotion that just teased one of the biggest matches in lucha libre for the whole Summer only to turn around and replace it with a vastly inferior match, followed by them lying several times about why they did. In contrast AAA, at their lowest point just a year ago, built up Psycho Clown and Dr. Wagner Jr. for over a year and then pulled the match off with the right result.

    The reality is that both organizations are plagued with disorganization, nonsensical happenings and booking decisions made via pettiness more so than sense; CMLL just does a better job of dressing it up than AAA does because they have the New Japan/ROH relationship, stay in their own lane and run out of one of the most beautiful arenas in the world three times a week. Right now though I'm far more excited to watch AAA than them considering AAA has been putting on great shows, is starting to make sense again with Konnan at the helm and, oh yeah, didn't tease the biggest match in lucha libre only to not do it because they thought Matt Taven and Volador Jr. vs. Cavernario and Rush was a better idea.


  7. #47
    Senior Member LWO4Life's Avatar
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    Here is my push back on CMLL, and what happened with L.A. Park. I don't think CMLL really had any plans to book L.A. Park and Rush, and on top of that, dealing with someone as independent as L.A. Park is very, very, very new to CMLL. CMLL in many ways is stuck in the past. A few things I love more about CMLL (so you can guess I'm going to bury them soon), they don't have to have a hardcore match on every card, they are more about the art of lucha rather than trying to move lucha forward. And there's how someone like L.A. Park really messes up what CMLL does. With hands off leadership (other than banning people for life), they have as many people backstage going to business for themselves like 1997 WCW, and are living off the past like WWE. With all of that said, to have someone who comes and goes as they please like L.A. Park is a shock to the system for them. It's not to say their wrestlers don't do dates outside CMLL, because they do, but let's face it, L.A. Park and Rush pushed a feud that we don't even know if CMLL wanted to do. At the same time, CMLL didn't stop it at all. L.A. Park has been fired a number of times from CMLL, but they keep bring him back, no matter how much business he goes for himself because he draws. L.A. Park does what he wants, promotes the matches he wants, and CMLL, which is use to total control of their shows and properties, can't stop him from hyping matches. I do agree, CMLL pulling this tag match, after allowing Rush and L.A. Park to to push their match, makes them look o bush league and out of touch. While I don't think they are bush league, they are very out of touch. Hopefully they come to their senses and make the right match. Honestly though, I'd actually love to see Rush beat Park for his mask. I SAID IT! And maybe that's what's CMLL's hesitation, they don't want to make Rush look bad when they know L.A. Park is just a passing traveler. Who know.

  8. #48
    Just watched Triple-Mania. ( The twitch version)

    It had its ups and downs. Obviously the botches and production leaves a lot to be desired but some cool booking makes up for it.

    I guess the thing I hate most about the botches is how the wrestlers just stand there and wait for the person who fucked up to try again.

    Liked the dirty referee stuff.Some will shit on it and say it takes the focus off the wrestlers but I think it just gives them more to fight against.

    Gonna take up for the Vampiro/ Striker team and maybe it's my own bias but even when shits not perfect, I love their chemistry friendship/disagreements. They both seem to feel what they're watching. And with the language barrier and production there was awkward errors but they still pull the viewer in to what's happening.

    Liked Fenix bringing the title home. Actually like his dive on to the owner. I thought it added to the drama. Either way, the right man won. Nice decision there.

    I think Mad is a decent heel group. Konann is ever intense and the masks are cool. Vampiro and Striker also sold the tension between Konann and Vampiro in a very nice way. I felt a bit unnerved when I watched Vamp and Konann go at it.

    With Konnan back in AAA hope he makes it back to Lucha Underground season 5.

    LA Park is a grumpy old bad ass.
    Last edited by Benjamin Button; 08-30-2018 at 07:28 PM.

  9. #49
    Senior Member LWO4Life's Avatar
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    L.A. Park has changed three Lucha business in Mexico for the better, and I think bring a grumpy old man who doesn't give a fuck helps him out greatly. He hates faux La Parka, he still hates AAA, and wouldn't let himself get fucked over again. CMLL tried to play him, he can say fuck them too. He's made the business work for him. And it's being the grumpy old man that's done it.

    And maybe I'm tripping, but AAA's production in the 90's was better than now. They have the best luchador roster in the world, but the show isn't.... Good. I'm talking show, not wrestling. CMLL had them beat in production by a huge mile.

  10. #50
    I meant the grumpy old man as a compliment. Was my favorite part of the show watching him school the younger man.

  11. #51
    Senior Member LWO4Life's Avatar
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    Oh yeah, I figured you were, I just need to pile on. He gives no fucks no more, and that's made him even better.
    Last edited by LWO4Life; 08-31-2018 at 02:47 PM.

  12. #52
    LWO you need to get to writing some Lucha Libre columns, mate

  13. #53
    The Brain
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    LWO columns are amazing, so yeah that'd be great.

  14. #54
    Senior Member LWO4Life's Avatar
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    I've kicked around this idea for a lucha column. I'd really only write about how L.A. Park is making AAA and CMLL his bitch because he can... LMAO.

  15. #55
    I'd read it...Not to mention the American audience is. Familiar with him but might not know the real him
    Last edited by Benjamin Button; 08-31-2018 at 05:24 PM.

  16. #56
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    I'd read the shit out of that, LWO. Do it, if you can.

    So, does Fantasma losing his mask mean we now get an unmasked Cuerno in LU? Or is he more likely to maintain the mask there, for the time being? I've not been reading spoilers ahead of time, but I must say I was surprised to see Fantasma lose that one, even though I reasoned that Park and Penta wouldn't be the guy to take the loss, leaving it between him and Clown.

    I really enjoyed a lot of TripleMania, for what it's worth.

  17. #57
    The Brain
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    Definitely expected Fantasma to lose the mask, out of the 4 involved. As for Cuerno losing it as well, it's an interesting question! It's happened before (Super Fly, I believe). The only thing that puts me in doubt as they seem to be hinting that Killshot may lose his mask as well, and two unmaskings so close seems a little unlikely? Could definitely see it happening though!

  18. #58
    Senior Member LWO4Life's Avatar
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    I highly doubt King Cuerno loses his mask. They've never outright said HDF and KC are the same person, they don't operate like the same person and LU seems to operate completely outside of AAA. So I don't expect KC to be unmasked.

  19. #59
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    I'm not sure anyone was surprised Fantasma lost his mask. AAA tried to create doubt by leaking info about Pentagon jumping to WWE (something people still actually think is happening, even though it isn't) and stuff about LA Park losing his mask, but at the end of the day it was always going to be Fantasma because the other three couldn't afford to lose it. Psycho Clown is AAA's biggest star, Pentagon is eventually going to be their second biggest star (I personally believe the long term idea is to build both guys up till they can do Psycho vs. Pentagon in a mask match) and LA Park is arguably one of the biggest stars in non WWE wrestling right now, period point blank. Fantasma kind of had to lose, which is fine because he's a good looking dude, he has a ton of hair so he can always put that up and, while it wasn't Wagner money, he surely got paid decently for the loss. He'll be just fine, and I reckon he will be able to keep the Cuerno mask because, as LWO pointed out, LU is a different animal and while it's known Cuerno and Fantasma are the same guy by fans, they're completely different characters. I don't see it having any effect.

    I am glad you enjoyed Triplemania Ollie. I personally still have it as my favorite show of the year given the high quality of matches (the ladder match and street fight were off the charts), some of the booking decisions and so forth. All In was in some ways better and it didn't have the cloud of Vamp having an all time low night at the booth hanging over it, but that was it. If you simply avoided English commentary (and in Striker's defense, he did an admirable job given how Vamp was) and watched Spanish, I can't see how you didn't come away thinking this was a great show.


  20. #60
    Super Moderator Team Farrell's Avatar
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    I have a question. I don't want to start an argument, or come off like an asshole, I'm genuinely curious and asking in earnest.

    My only real exposure to lucha, AAA specifically, is Botchamania highlights (lowlights?). Is lucha as botchy as they make it look? Like, going based on Botchamania alone I'd assume that every match has at least one spot where someone crashes and burns or blows a spot and two guys stand around for entirely too long looking at each other to figure out what's next. The Mistico ladder one really got me.

  21. #61
    The Brain
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    I tend to cherry pick top matches but from that I feel like I don't often see obvious botches. I'm not the type that looks for them either but that's what I've seen, for what it's worth!

  22. #62
    Senior Member LWO4Life's Avatar
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    Lucha just works different than American. You have two top level luchadors, you wouldn't see botches. But if you are watching the undercard for CMLL and everyone is old, fat and 20 years past their prime, you'll see lots of botches.

  23. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Farrell View Post
    I have a question. I don't want to start an argument, or come off like an asshole, I'm genuinely curious and asking in earnest.

    My only real exposure to lucha, AAA specifically, is Botchamania highlights (lowlights?). Is lucha as botchy as they make it look? Like, going based on Botchamania alone I'd assume that every match has at least one spot where someone crashes and burns or blows a spot and two guys stand around for entirely too long looking at each other to figure out what's next. The Mistico ladder one really got me.
    This is your first mistake. I love the Botchamania guy but it's quite apparent that his only exposure to AAA or CMLL is through highlights sent to him, which is why it seems to be quite a bit. This recent video making fun of Triplemania is a prime example; the general consensus was that the show was at worst good and at best fantastic (it has a current average score of 7.63 out of 10 on Cagematch for example) but because Vampiro is a giant goofball and certain fans cherry picked a handful of moments to send to Maffew some have gotten the impression it was a botch fest of a show that sucked. The reality is that while there are certainly botches in lucha (and were some on that show), there's no more than any other place. And that's despite the fact that 60% of lucha is all about innovative, high risk, tricky moves.


  24. #64
    Super Moderator Team Farrell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cult Icon View Post
    This is your first mistake. I love the Botchamania guy but it's quite apparent that his only exposure to AAA or CMLL is through highlights sent to him, which is why it seems to be quite a bit. This recent video making fun of Triplemania is a prime example; the general consensus was that the show was at worst good and at best fantastic (it has a current average score of 7.63 out of 10 on Cagematch for example) but because Vampiro is a giant goofball and certain fans cherry picked a handful of moments to send to Maffew some have gotten the impression it was a botch fest of a show that sucked. The reality is that while there are certainly botches in lucha (and were some on that show), there's no more than any other place. And that's despite the fact that 60% of lucha is all about innovative, high risk, tricky moves.
    That's fair enough. My only exposure to it comes from Botchamania or when a particularly egregious botch comes across my Facebook feed. The Mystico one on the ladder really stood out to me more than anything. Vampiro is what he is, and should have just hit the ring without music. That's a botch because of his ego and nothing more.

  25. #65
    Senior Member LWO4Life's Avatar
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    Now, if you can overlook the fact that AAA sometimes (understatement?) resembles Russo's WCW with all the run ins, and CMLL is still stuck in the 80's, you can easily sit back and enjoy the show.

  26. #66

  27. #67
    Senior Member LWO4Life's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Farrell View Post
    Full disclosure: Russo era WCW is my jam.
    Then AAA would be your spanish jam... LOL. Taco Bell option when you're tired of McDonald's!

  28. #68
    The Brain
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Farrell View Post
    Full disclosure: Russo era WCW is my jam.
    A very unexpected take.

  29. #69
    Super Moderator Team Farrell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mizfan View Post
    A very unexpected take.
    So I'm 30 years old. When Russo had WWE at its Russo-est I was just a year or two too young. Like, I really enjoyed it but that tiny bit too young to really "get" it. But when he was in WCW, I 12 or 13 which is like prime age for Russo.

    My girlfriend was in to wrestling at the time, but like Austin and WWE mostly so she never watched any of that stuff. I put on shows from that era all the time and sit with a shit eating grin on my face while her brain melts.

  30. #70
    The Brain
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    I sympathize with your girlfriend on this one, Coach!

    I think LWO is the one who posted this somewhere but I can't find where exactly, so I'll throw it in here. Watched this recently and it's all guys currently associated with AAA, except Daga, so why not?

    Pentagon Jr & Daga vs. LA Park & Rey Escorpión, 2 out of 3 Falls 3/1/17 AULL



    The lucha independent scene is such a marvelous beast. You constantly see big stars swing in and have random matches with other big stars they might never run across in their "home" promotions, if they even have one. Seeing Pentagon and Park against each other alone is well worth seeking this out, but Escorpion is a great talent as well, and while I'm not his biggest fan a lot of people like Daga too. But let me tell you, this match blew away all my expectations! One of the craziest brawls I have seen in quite some time, I'm talking fans having to constantly run out of their way just to avoid being trampled, and sections of the arena literally being torn apart and used as weapons. I'm not sure you've lived until you've seen a whole row of chairs, bolted together, get thrown at someone. They just went all out, and for more than half an hour too. This is just an all out war, masks were ripped, wreckage was piled into the ring, pretty much anything you can think of. This was a fight for the ages and I recommend everyone check it out. The only thing that wasn't ideal was the finish, which I won't spoil because I can't, because I'm not even really sure what happened. Confusing non-finishes are an unfortunately common downside of these kinds of lucha indy matches, at least in my experience, but still up to that point this match is a real treasure in my book.

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